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Creditor request to liquidate Proview blocked due to iPad trademark potential

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
Proview's lawsuit against Apple over the iPad trademark in China will continue unobstructed now that a court has blocked one creditor's attempt to liquidate the company.

Fubon Insurance had filed multiple requests to have the Shenzhen subsidiary of Proview liquidated without waiting for the former monitor maker to resolve its complaint against Apple. The creditor had said it did not believe Proview would win enough money from Apple to cover its debts.

The Intermediate People's Court of Shenzhen rejected Fubon's request on Saturday, China Daily reports (via The Next Web). The court explained in its decision that the Chinese iPad trademark could provide the money needed to pay back what it owes.

"As it is too early to determine Proview lacks the ability to pay off its debts, the court does not accept Fubon's request to liquidate Proview," the court said.

According to the report, legal experts had suggested that Proview's complaint against Apple may have been brought to a halt if the court had approved the liquidation of the company.

Even with the recent court ruling, Proview isn't in the clear, though, as it still has several powerful creditors, including eight Chinese banks, looking to collect. The company is said to owe as much as 400 million U.S. dollars.

Apple used a third-party company to strike a deal with Proview in 2009 to purchase multiple countries' rights for the iPad trademark, but Proview argues that its Shenzhen subsidiary still owns the trademark because representatives from the Chinese branch were not present when the contract was signed.




A statement from Apple last month accused Proview of intentionally confusing the transaction in order to dodge creditors and get more money.

"Proview clearly made that arrangement so they wouldn't have to give the money to their creditors in" mainland China, Wu said. "Because they still owe a lot of people a lot of money, they are now unfairly trying to get more from Apple for a trademark we already paid for."

The legal dispute between Proview and Apple is occurring across the Chinese mainland, Hong Kong and even the U.S. Apple has won decisions in Shanghai and Hong Kong, but it is appealing a Guangdong ruling that sided with Proview.

The disagreement continues even as Apple is preparing to launch its third-generation iPad in China. The company has already received some of the required regulatory approvals for the device and is awaiting network licenses for its 3G-capable iPad.

[ View article on AppleInsider ]
post #2 of 27
So the mob came to collect on some debts and Joey says, "hey guys, don't break my legs, I'll pay you back, just gimme a little time is all I needs. I got me a sweet little scam going with a certain big name in the computah world. Gotta 'em by the balls. Listen, tell Don Vito when I get paid, he'll get paid."

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #3 of 27
In short, they are relying on apple to pay off their debts
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Apple TV is the next big thing!
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post #4 of 27
They are losing their shirts and the best they could come up with is a law suit against apple. And yet the truth is obvious now. I bet Apple execs are laughing their asses off.
An Apple man since 1977
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An Apple man since 1977
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post #5 of 27
Apple SHOULD easily win this but this is China's court system so I will wait for the final ruling.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." Douglas Adams

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"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." Douglas Adams

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post #6 of 27
While Proview only owes the banks $400 mill, the owner of Proview has signed personal notes for another 1.6 billion. That's why he's holding out for a $2 billion extortion from Apple because more then losing his company he doesn't want to lose his shirt too.

In China, this means he will be planting rice by hand somewhere far far from electricity and telephones.
"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #7 of 27
I thought Apple proved that several members of the Chinese branch were in fact present. Regardless, why would that matter anyway, a contract is a contract, no? And if the contract was faulty, shouldn't Proview be suing the people from Proview who messed up? Doesn't seem like it would be Apple's responsibility to ensure that Proview wasn't defrauding Proview...
post #8 of 27
Sounds like the judge already knew what's coming. Paid, much?
post #9 of 27
Apple should pay the owner of the iPad name, just to solve this infringement.
post #10 of 27
Ironic since many pro-Proview commentators said "the liquidators own the company", "to the creditors go the spoils", etc. Clearly some creditors just want to get their ******* money back and put this garbage lawsuits behind them. The slumcourts in China fancy stopping this from happening.
post #11 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter236 View Post

Apple should pay the owner of the iPad name, just to solve this infringement.

Apple already paid the owner of the iPad name, and it has already been sold to Apple. The owner is the same guy, he has refused the name transfer for years now because he says, "Oh, you bought it from my left hand, actually I only promised to sell it to you from my right hand".

Would you like to buy a car advertised for $20,000 by putting $20,000 in the salesman's left hand, then another $20,000 in the right hand, so you can, you know, actually drive the darn thing out of the lot?

The Chinese slumcourts are simply jerking Apple about to prove their supposed legitimacy.
post #12 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splash-reverse View Post

Sounds like the judge already knew what's coming. Paid, much?

Of course. In Asia there is no real such thing as separation of church/temple/mosque, state, government, judiciary, business, recreation etc. It's one big gooey Katamari. Luckily the "church/temple/mosque" part of China is not that big yet because it has been suppressed to this day by communist ideology... It's coming, when the oligarchy decides what opiate to use...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

While Proview only owes the banks $400 mill, the owner of Proview has signed personal notes for another 1.6 billion. That's why he's holding out for a $2 billion extortion from Apple because more then losing his company he doesn't want to lose his shirt too.

In China, this means he will be planting rice by hand somewhere far far from electricity and telephones.

If he isn't sleeping with the fishes somewhere at the bottom of the Yangtze. Not that I want that to happen, I want to see him brought to an international court of justice. Not these China slum courts (can you tell I'm proud of this term I made up? :smokey).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerk36 View Post

They are losing their shirts and the best they could come up with is a law suit against apple. And yet the truth is obvious now. I bet Apple execs are laughing their asses off.

He who laughs last... laughs best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

So the mob came to collect on some debts and Joey says, "hey guys, don't break my legs, I'll pay you back, just gimme a little time is all I needs. I got me a sweet little scam going with a certain big name in the computah world. Gotta 'em by the balls. Listen, tell Don Vito when I get paid, he'll get paid."

Bingo. The mafia didn't die, they just spiritually moved to Asia. It's not that hilarious when Mafia-equivalent behaviour is how most Asian businesses of all sizes operate.
post #13 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter236 View Post

apple should pay the owner of the ipad name, just to solve this infringement.

apple is the owner.
post #14 of 27
You can't charge someone based on who they are. You must charge them based on what they are purchasing.
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I've accomplished my childhood's dream: My job consists mainly of playing with toys all day long.
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post #15 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranReloaded View Post

You can't charge someone based on who they are. You must charge them based on what they are purchasing.

In Asia (no offense to Japan) I notice a common practice is you charge someone based on as much money you can make. At least in Malaysia, Thailand and China.

This is why in Malaysia for example, bargaining is a very common custom, distilled in modern 21st Century form to someone asking, "Best price Bro?" as you will notice from LowYat Forums online. This of course extends to real-world bargaining for everything from a pair of socks through to a 50 billion ringgit contract.

Price enquiry is done not as a formal estimation process in most transactions, but to test the waters (also used colloquially as "test water" [sic]).

This is why outside of major department chains and more formal food franchises, a "price list" of any sort is mostly irrelevant (yes some food stalls have price lists but they don't show you the array of options available, even when they do have an extensive list it is still hard to cover everything that's available in such a diverse and wide food culture).

If you ever go to Petaling Street in Kuala Lumpur for souvenirs and stuff or Low Yat Plaza for gadgetry bargaining is expected, but keep in mind there are incidences of harassment and/or violence if you don't go through with the purchase. The situation is complex because sometimes, like in Low Yat, certain things like the latest GPU cards are as low as others are willing to sell it, so you can't get that much of a discount, but cameras vary a lot in their pricing.

The criminal element though is always a concern, and shameful for some locals (that care about these things) who see tourists/foreigners getting cheated or even beaten up (as is the case with foreign workers from the Indian subcontinent, for example).

Interestingly all the above do not apply to food hawkers, food and drink items are normally not bargained. Funny that, just realised it.
post #16 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunilraman View Post

Of course. In Asia there is no real such thing as separation of church/temple/mosque, state, government, judiciary, business, recreation etc. It's one big gooey Katamari. Luckily the "church/temple/mosque" part of China is not that big yet because it has been suppressed to this day by communist ideology... It's coming, when the oligarchy decides what opiate to use...



If he isn't sleeping with the fishes somewhere at the bottom of the Yangtze. Not that I want that to happen, I want to see him brought to an international court of justice. Not these China slum courts (can you tell I'm proud of this term I made up? :smokey).



He who laughs last... laughs best.



Bingo. The mafia didn't die, they just spiritually moved to Asia. It's not that hilarious when Mafia-equivalent behaviour is how most Asian businesses of all sizes operate.


"What opiate to use". Interesting choice of words. The phrase about the Mafia is also interesting. Do you really believe that australian or american or british or german or french business is morally superior?
Come on. Not to even think of the cases where occidental business actively aids dictators

Little reminder: the Ivy League Universities were funded on money gained from OPIATE TRADE. This trade was imposed on China by a military alliance of France, UK and the USA. River of Pearls etc...
On top of this, big banks, weapon makers and railroads (if you don't see the link, check out JP Morgan's life) used their tremendous weight to force legislation in their interest rather than that of the people, not to mention they exploited the world and caused two world wars by their greediness.
Hence, "chinese slumcourts" might be true, or not. What is sure, is that Americans have absolutely no legitimity to say "hey, we're morally superior". As to Australians...I don't know. I'm sure you can dig some dirt on your own, there always is (which is my point, really). Maybe look at oil conflicts in the north (Spratleys, Indonesia)... No country has yet proven moral superiority
Acts, not words.

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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post #17 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

While Proview only owes the banks $400 mill, the owner of Proview has signed personal notes for another 1.6 billion. That's why he's holding out for a $2 billion extortion from Apple because more then losing his company he doesn't want to lose his shirt too.

In China, this means he will be planting rice by hand somewhere far far from electricity and telephones.

worst that that, because china already has enough people doing that.
on second thought he will be assembling Amazon Fire's
post #18 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

"What opiate to use". Interesting choice of words. The phrase about the Mafia is also interesting. Do you really believe that australian or american or british or german or french business is morally superior?
Come on. Not to even think of the cases where occidental business actively aids dictators

Little reminder: the Ivy League Universities were funded on money gained from OPIATE TRADE. This trade was imposed on China by a military alliance of France, UK and the USA. River of Pearls etc...
On top of this, big banks, weapon makers and railroads (if you don't see the link, check out JP Morgan's life) used their tremendous weight to force legislation in their interest rather than that of the people, not to mention they exploited the world and caused two world wars by their greediness.
Hence, "chinese slumcourts" might be true, or not. What is sure, is that Americans have absolutely no legitimity to say "hey, we're morally superior". As to Australians...I don't know. I'm sure you can dig some dirt on your own, there always is (which is my point, really). Maybe look at oil conflicts in the north (Spratleys, Indonesia)... No country has yet proven moral superiority
Acts, not words.

political much

so where is the wikipedia article on "ivy league" being once funded by the OPIATE TRADE
post #19 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by alienzed View Post

...a contract is a contract, no?

Chinese banks and courts are tools of the Chinese government. Proview is controlled by its creditors, the Chinese government. The Chinese government does not want to lose money on bad loans made to Proview and sees a way to cover losses through Apple.

A contract is only worth something when there is a neutral third party to adjudicate disputes. In this case, the outcome will be decided by the claimant. \
post #20 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by alienzed View Post

I thought Apple proved that several members of the Chinese branch were in fact present. Regardless, why would that matter anyway, a contract is a contract, no?

A contract is only a contract based on what it says and what rights each side has to give away.

I don't think Apple had proof either way about people but they claim they have proof that they were told that China was included in the deal so they don't need to buy it again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter236 View Post

Apple should pay the owner of the iPad name, just to solve this infringement.

They did, and according to them, he claimed ownership of China and led them to believe that he could rightly make that claim and sell the rights.

If this were the US they would either tell Proview to kick rocks out right or would tell Apple to pay, another $55k same as the first payment and Proview has to take it as full payment. In regards to the 'fraud' damages, they would definitely tell Proview to kick rocks. THey were just as guilty of fraud as they claim Apple to be (actually more cause there's nothing illegal about using a 3rd party in such a way).

The only way China would possibly act the same way 100% is if Apple could pull their assembly business out of China within a heartbeat. Once Foxconn has working lines in Brazil etc the heat will really start. Apple will be in a position to yank their business out of China. And that would hurt big time. And with the threats of stopping assembled iPads from leaving China to be sold elsewhere, Apple would have a valid reason to move. Lost of a million jobs or so would be a better bribe than all the cash Apple has in the bank thanks to the negative PR when Apple publicly declares why they are making the move

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post #21 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranReloaded View Post

You can't charge someone based on who they are. You must charge them based on what they are purchasing.

Not true. Not unless you are talking about FRAND patents. Otherwise anything goes.

Apple used their fake company to get a fair price and avoid leaks. And there is nothing illegal about that.

Lying about what you can sell, that's a different game.

If they have the proof they claim this case should have ended ages ago if not for courts that want to play games especially over the 'fraud' damages and making Apple pay 30 time as much for China than they did for all the rest.

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post #22 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

Little reminder: the Ivy League Universities were funded on money gained from OPIATE TRADE.

Get your facts straight... it was slave trade money.
post #23 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunilraman View Post

In Asia (no offense to Japan) I notice a common practice is you charge someone based on as much money you can make. At least in Malaysia, Thailand and China.

This is why in Malaysia for example, bargaining is a very common custom, distilled in modern 21st Century form to someone asking, "Best price Bro?" as you will notice from LowYat Forums online. This of course extends to real-world bargaining for everything from a pair of socks through to a 50 billion ringgit contract.

Price enquiry is done not as a formal estimation process in most transactions, but to test the waters (also used colloquially as "test water" [sic]).

This is why outside of major department chains and more formal food franchises, a "price list" of any sort is mostly irrelevant (yes some food stalls have price lists but they don't show you the array of options available, even when they do have an extensive list it is still hard to cover everything that's available in such a diverse and wide food culture).

If you ever go to Petaling Street in Kuala Lumpur for souvenirs and stuff or Low Yat Plaza for gadgetry bargaining is expected, but keep in mind there are incidences of harassment and/or violence if you don't go through with the purchase. The situation is complex because sometimes, like in Low Yat, certain things like the latest GPU cards are as low as others are willing to sell it, so you can't get that much of a discount, but cameras vary a lot in their pricing.

The criminal element though is always a concern, and shameful for some locals (that care about these things) who see tourists/foreigners getting cheated or even beaten up (as is the case with foreign workers from the Indian subcontinent, for example).

Interestingly all the above do not apply to food hawkers, food and drink items are normally not bargained. Funny that, just realised it.

Just Curious?
How many years did you live in Malaysia, Sunilrman? I lived in that great country three years and certainly bargaining is part of the market system. Bargaining is common in North America,too. I can’t comment on Australia as I have only passed over that part of the world, but houses, cars, some electronic devices, cable services are up for discussion over price. I have a neighbour who twice now has had large sums taken off his gas metre in the line of bargaining over errors in his billing. I’ve heard of phone bills being reduced.

I’ve been to Petaling St, a common tourist area I believe, many other markets in Kuala Lumpur, P. Penang, and towns and cities up and down the west coast, to Kuching, Lundu, Julau in Sarawak; too many places to remember with out a map. Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines. I have visited, Hong Kong, so yup, bargaining is all part of the culture in much of Asia, though much more so than in North America. I’ve heard it is done in the continent south of us.

Some “deals” one can do very well on if you know the game and have a sense of humour. Losing the first sale of the day is not good karma so if you’re in an empty shop early, you may get your purchase at business cost or better; mean and aggressive doesn’t work very well. There are emporiums, small and huge which may sell on list price but are usually open to bargaining—closer to always, actually. It’s almost a pastime like park chess. I have bargained in China towns in Vancouver and Calgary. I’ve met a few dishonest hawkers but most are as honest as the businessmen you meet on most white streets in your and my part of the world.

(Business people have been studied and the richer they are the closer to psychopaths, their personalities were found to be. That would encompass all nations, all races, so be careful wherever you are when there's money in your pocket.)

And speaking of “white”, do you have problems with "persons of colour", "non-whites" or however you identify “unlike-you” people? Words such as ****, scum and slum courts seem to roll off your tongue like drool from a mad dog’s mouth.

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When I find time to rewrite the laws of Physics, there'll Finally be some changes made round here!

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post #24 of 27
As always, people seem fixated on my nationality, culture and ethnicity. If people don't look at my posts or location, I am a superior American. If they see Australia, they think it's not that different. Then of course, whether I am Caucasian or not, which seems to either validate or invalidate my comments.

I will go on record as I have many times throughout my posts. I'll leave it for later so you can accuse me of various things.

An interesting phrase I heard is that the developed countries pushed the world to the brink but the developing world will push it over the edge.

Wealthy developed countries need to stop with their self-imposed endless guilt and nonsensical political correctness. It's okay to be mad at China. It's okay to be concerned about India stealing your jobs. It's okay to worry about Middle Eastern women who are totally covered up walking around your streets. It's okay to not want a mosque in your neighbourhood. You've had churches for centuries. It's okay to want to hang on to that.

I acknowledge and admire the tolerance and acceptance now widespread within Western culture.

But at the end of the day, the irony this decade is that Westerners and Asians are no more or less racist than each other, and living conditions in Asia are mostly not pleasant despite all the shortcomings of the West.

I understand Western cultures seeking atonement for various atrocities but I hope to convey that they can ~now~ play a beneficial and essential role in Asia, and is arguably a stabilising presence in developing countries. If you truly care that much about justice, equality and responsible government then you will look at Asia objectively and see, amongst other things, how history is repeating itself.

Does humanity progress or do we spend the next 100 years merely addressing what the West already took centuries and much brinkmanship to resolve?
post #25 of 27
I know this is destined for PoliticalOutsider but since questions have been directed at me I will respond accordingly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhikl View Post

Just Curious?
How many years did you live in Malaysia, Sunilrman?

I am a Malaysian citizen and have clocked up about 20 years in Malaysia excluding holidays "back there". As however I am non-Islamic and of non-Malay ethnicity (Chinese-Indian, for the record), I have spent all that time in subjugation and subject to more discrimination than I have ever faced in Caucasian-dominant countries. Most non-Malays in Malaysia, who form a significant population but still the minority by far, would give up, and do sacrifice immensely (how does my parents' life savings sound?) to be discriminated in whatever minor form in Caucasian-dominant developed countries. Please look up the "Bersih" movement of Malaysia, and let me know if you've actually talked about any of this to locals during your jolly time in Malaysia.

One may also notice that if they had visited Malaysia over several decades, not for a whirlwind holiday, that dressing has becoming increasingly conservative leading to increased oppression of women in the public sphere. A silly example but pertinent ~ most guys would really drool over any woman not wearing a bra, the difference is in Malaysia if you are Malay Muslim this is entirely not allowed, and against your own choices... Not to mention covering the head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhikl View Post

...great country...

I beg to differ, and many Malaysian citizens have struggled for decades to right many issues with "our" country. If other nations do not see our plight then our struggles and suffering has been for nothing. We don't want Westerners to tell us how good things are in our country, we want you to help us address the deep institutionalised racism, political and financial corruption, lack of rule of law, and outrageous, blatant Islamisation of a supposedly secular nation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhikl View Post

...Certainly bargaining is part of the market system. Bargaining is common in North America,too. I can’t comment on Australia as I have only passed over that part of the world, but houses, cars, some electronic devices, cable services are up for discussion over price. I have a neighbour who twice now has had large sums taken off his gas metre in the line of bargaining over errors in his billing. I’ve heard of phone bills being reduced.

There's a difference. The topic we are talking about is ethical pricing of things. The gradation is this ~ you mention correcting errors in billing. That is different from putting a price tag of $200 when you know you're going to sell it at $35. Yes, some bargaining is common in Western countries, but there are differences which I could elucidate in a separate thread in Political Outsider.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhikl View Post

...I’ve been to Petaling St, a common tourist area I believe, many other markets in Kuala Lumpur, P. Penang, and towns and cities up and down the west coast, to Kuching, Lundu, Julau in Sarawak; too many places to remember with out a map. Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines. I have visited, Hong Kong, so yup, bargaining is all part of the culture in much of Asia, though much more so than in North America. I’ve heard it is done in the continent south of us.

I don't require your credentials.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhikl View Post

Some “deals” one can do very well on if you know the game and have a sense of humour. Losing the first sale of the day is not good karma so if you’re in an empty shop early, you may get your purchase at business cost or better; mean and aggressive doesn’t work very well. There are emporiums, small and huge which may sell on list price but are usually open to bargaining—closer to always, actually. It’s almost a pastime like park chess. I have bargained in China towns in Vancouver and Calgary. I’ve met a few dishonest hawkers but most are as honest as the businessmen you meet on most white streets in your and my part of the world.

There's a difference between Chinatown and China. There's a difference between fun, and people getting beaten up in your own city because the traders didn't like you.

Again assumptions are being made in what is my street, whether a "white street" or not. Would it help to mention that my current street in Australia is often beset by drunk or drugged-up aboriginals? Or is that not politically correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhikl View Post

(Business people have been studied and the richer they are the closer to psychopaths, their personalities were found to be. That would encompass all nations, all races, so be careful wherever you are when there's money in your pocket.)

And this is an issue. Over centuries, developed countries have significantly embarked on procedures to limit the "rule of money". They have been successful, but of course the price of freedom is eternal vigilance etc. Recently in developed country we've seen this psychopathy in the financial system. What I'm conveying here, with language no doubt that ruffles feathers, is to prevent the cycle from repeating itself, and this time, not condemning hundreds of millions, but billions, to the equivalent of modern medieval existence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhikl View Post

And speaking of “white”, do you have problems with "persons of colour", "non-whites" or however you identify “unlike-you” people? Words such as ****, scum and slum courts seem to roll off your tongue like drool from a mad dog’s mouth.

If you are so concerned about race equality, then surely you would be well-informed enough to realise my name is of common Indian heritage, merely two very common names, first and last, joined together as per username for websites. The lack of grasping my username, may suggest that your cultural awareness has room for improvement.

At best you could have called me a traitor to my own "non-white" people (which means what? Chinese? Indian? Hispanic? Black?)

There's a stark difference to wealthy people from developed countries visiting less-fortunate countries, than such developing country nationals struggling each day.

Let us not repeat colonial mentality in the guise of political correctness and the overwhelming need to atone for the sins of the forefathers of developed countries.

The West has no doubt caused much damage throughout history in trying to "correct the wrongs" of the world. Let us not repeat that by the main issue that caused such misplaced altruism ~ lack of knowledge and awareness, lack of local needs, wants and concerns.

Asia does need factories, development and so on. It does not need more money per se. It also needs better education, sustainability guidance and improvements in governance.

Look at this first before navel-gazing and saying. "Well, who are we to judge and correct?" ~ You are capable of doing so ~because~ you have the political, financial, historical and other will ~as a member of humanity~ ... If one truly cares, you will look at the on-the-ground scenario and look at things such as why Chinese migrants in a Vancouver Chinatown can speak better English than a Cantonese-Chinese who grew up in Malaysia and has studied spoken and written English as a subject all their life.
post #26 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

"What opiate to use". Interesting choice of words. The phrase about the Mafia is also interesting. Do you really believe that australian or american or british or german or french business is morally superior?
Come on. Not to even think of the cases where occidental business actively aids dictators

Little reminder: the Ivy League Universities were funded on money gained from OPIATE TRADE. This trade was imposed on China by a military alliance of France, UK and the USA. River of Pearls etc...
On top of this, big banks, weapon makers and railroads (if you don't see the link, check out JP Morgan's life) used their tremendous weight to force legislation in their interest rather than that of the people, not to mention they exploited the world and caused two world wars by their greediness.
Hence, "chinese slumcourts" might be true, or not. What is sure, is that Americans have absolutely no legitimity to say "hey, we're morally superior". As to Australians...I don't know. I'm sure you can dig some dirt on your own, there always is (which is my point, really). Maybe look at oil conflicts in the north (Spratleys, Indonesia)... No country has yet proven moral superiority
Acts, not words.

All this lengthy rambling is well and good but again, did I say "Americans and Australians are morally superior"? I am highlighting the issues in Asia and am trying to make the case, however repulsive to some, of the important role developed countries have in ~preventing~ the developing country from annihilating whatever quality of human life we have left in the world.

As for Europe, non-Mulsim Asians are very well aware of entire neighbourhoods surrounded to Muslim enclaves, and we see that in several Asian countries as well which were once multi-religion and multi-ethnic.
post #27 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunilraman View Post

I know this is destined for PoliticalOutsider but since questions have been directed at me I will respond accordingly.

I am a Malaysian citizen ...etc.

I beg to differ, and many Malaysian citizens have struggled for decades to right many issues with "our" country. ... etc.

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Mr Sunilraman, let me get this straight. We are supposed to accept someone’s username, place of posting, and anything else s/he purports about self as fact and legitimate as a notarised birth certificate? One can claim anything on the internet that s/he thinks is to one’s advantage. On a Piers Morgan’s CNN forum on the Trayvon Martin case every (or almost every) posting African-American claims to support Morgan in the dispute with Touré. Well, I wrote in on that one and claimed to be Plutonian, an immigrant from the Planet Pluto and that claim has about as much authority as the ones from the others.

A little history you ignore as you walk through life feeling imposed upon (I am sure you are fully aware) is that Malaysia is the perfect example of a country who’s nation was changed in the most inscrutable way by people who would have fought to the death if another ethnic culture tried to do the same to their nation, people and culture. The Bumiputra population, (Malay and Dyak and other indigenous populations), the original peoples of Malaysia now barely make up half the population of the country. You are fully aware that there were Chinese and Indians and Spanish among other nationals in Malaysia before the British overtook the region as a colony. You also know that for the most part, traders over the millennium came and went but some chose to remain in the region, married into and became part of the greater culture.

But when the British came they overwhelmed the original populations with vast numbers of migrant workers for the labour fields in all sectors of the society. Sarawak and Sabah and some regions of the Malay peninsula were special cases where the Islamic culture had not completely supplanted historic cultures and Animism remained as the ruling culture. The Abrahamic religions did not get a toe hold in the Sarawak region until Brooke came along and brought his era’s form of “civilisation” to the warring tribes. In the least he saved some of the gentler or weaker tribes from the famous Dyak headhunters of the time.

The fact remains that there is a difference between a nation like Australia, Canada and other European cultural nations accepting and even blessing multiculturalism. But what happened in Malaysia by the British was rape, pure and simple. The Malays and other Bumiputra populations did not have a chance against the superior market skills of the British, the Chinese and the Indian cultures anymore than did the indigenous peoples have against the previous onslaught of Islam. The introductions of the Chinese and Indians in the numbers the British supervised was as subversive as the British and American introduction of non-resident Jews into Palestine in more recent times. Many of the Chinese and Indians have been as methodical as the new Israelis in refusing to respect the history and nature of the original inhabitance just as the invading Europeans were and are negligent to the native populations in the Americas and Australia.

India fought and rightfully won its war in independence*. In the history of the rise of civilisation it has been only the past two or three centuries that Europe/America have had the largest and most productive economies in the world. China and India* have had the largest and most productive economies for the greatest part of the past three millennia and both are on the rise and will re-establish their place in the economic scheme of the world, possibly in both our lifetimes.

You obviously have the experience and knowledge to do an honest, honourable job at explaining and, more importantly, understanding the things you raise on this site but you have a mind closed to the ramifications of the complex history that lies outside your own interests and the naturally self-centred biases we all have of our historical culture. This bias is ignorantly (as in being unaware of - not in the pejorative sense) selfish and in total denial of the true and real interconnectivity of our species, a point of view we must all work to overcome.

I don’t have all the answers and understanding and neither do you, sir, but we all can strive to expand our truer understanding and work to let go our ignorances and faulty understandings. The old American saying, “My Country (Ideas) Right or Wrong”, deserves its place on the bonfire of history.

* The Chinese may have been the first to make wrought iron in the 6th C BCE and when the British first came to India, India was the largest producer of Iron in the world.

* India won its war through persistent non-violence and negotiation rather than through war, lessons that have been sadly lost to the powerful rulers of Britain, America and Israel.

When I find time to rewrite the laws of Physics, there'll Finally be some changes made round here!

I am not crazy! Three out of five court appointed psychiatrists said so.

Reply

When I find time to rewrite the laws of Physics, there'll Finally be some changes made round here!

I am not crazy! Three out of five court appointed psychiatrists said so.

Reply
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