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UK ad authority moves closer to '4G' iPad investigation - Page 3

post #81 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post

I see what your saying, but the complaint is more that all the cars are already advertised as "55mph", and some new cars can do and say 110mph, which is very appealing to many customers.

Then apple comes along saying "iPad 110mph (but only 55 unless you're in Germany). "

Then there are complaints of misadvertising,


No, not exactly. It's like Apple advertising the "iPad 100g" as an iPad that weighs only 100 grams (with footnote #6 specifying that it may weigh a full 600 grams if used outside of the Moon).
post #82 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

So what? The new iPad meets the legal requirements for 4G service in Sweden. And their advertising specifically states that LTE is only available in the US and Canada.

Frankly, countries should not have their regulatory authorities making an issue of this. It's only an issue if you're taking the position that your citizens are too stupid to be allowed outside the home without a handler so they're simply implying that their citizens are stupid.

Well, Apple itself seems to think its customers are too stupid to be allowed to install their own software without going through Apple's own store. On one hand the customers need to be protected from themselves installing potential viruses/etc, but on the other hand the customer should not be "stupid", not knowing the differences between "UMTS, HSPA, HSPA+, DC-HSDPA in the 850mhz, 900mhz, 2900mhz, and 2100 mhz ranges."

I guess in your mind they can have it both ways?
post #83 of 112
I wish US regulators had the balls of the UK/EU/AUS regulators...

AT&T goes around calling hspa+ "4g" even though the engineering bodies that defined 3g all classify HSPA+ as a 3g technology...Hell, they sell the iphone as 4G now! It should be criminal but in the USA, well, its not.
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post #84 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

They didn't. They listed 4G, which is completely acceptable within the ITU-R definition. They never advertised 4G LTE outside the US and Canada.

Also note that 4G is such a generic term that LTE is appended to it when actually referring to LTE.

Whenever these anti Apple 'events' happen, be it antennae death grips, over heating iPad threes or this I fight the urge to suspect conspiracy theories.

Then just this morning while reading an article about OS/2, I came across this paragraph about the depths Microsoft are capable of sinking to and I have no doubt Google too. Note the 'carpet bombing on line forums' and 'fictitious disgruntled IBM customers'. Not only does this make me re consider my conspiracy paranoia issues but also wonder about our resident Trolls and makes me feel like reaching for the pitch fork and shouting ... "To the castle!"

From Time Magaizine:

“The issue that mattered most to me,” former Microsoft evangelist Rick Segal*told*Elizabeth Lesly Stevens of Brill’s Content, “was how to make sure OS/2 never got a foothold to take over our operating system, our franchise.” (Segal also called OS/2 “superior in every way [to Windows], at the time.”) Microsoft lobbied tech journalists, carpet-bombed online forums where OS/2 was discussed and was even accused of creating a fictitious disgruntled IBM customer, Steve Barkto, to do some of its OS/2 bashing.

Read more: http://techland.time.com/2012/04/02/...#ixzz1rS9RubX7
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post #85 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by entification View Post

Well, Apple itself seems to think its customers are too stupid to be allowed to install their own software without going through Apple's own store. On one hand the customers need to be protected from themselves installing potential viruses/etc, but on the other hand the customer should not be "stupid", not knowing the differences between "UMTS, HSPA, HSPA+, DC-HSDPA in the 850mhz, 900mhz, 2900mhz, and 2100 mhz ranges."

I guess in your mind they can have it both ways?

Wow! what a great example of a non sequitur! The favorite tool of the factually bereft. A Lewis Caroll fan perhaps?

So making a car safe, automatic and requiring little mechanical or technical knowledge would also mean a user required zero knowledge of on what or where one can drive them?

Are you here on behalf of an organization? Just curious after reading the Time article I reference in the above post.
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post #86 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

I wish US regulators had the balls of the UK/EU/AUS regulators...

AT&T goes around calling hspa+ "4g" even though the engineering bodies that defined 3g all classify HSPA+ as a 3g technology...Hell, they sell the iphone as 4G now! It should be criminal but in the USA, well, its not.

Wrong. According to the international organization which defines the term, HSPA+ is 4G.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post

I get that Apple hasn't bothered with making an LTE iPad for Australia. Our population is low, we only have the 1800Mhz network for now, later 2600 and 700Mhz (Aussie version which isn't finalised)). And the carrier with 1800Mhz is offering DC-HSPA which is regularly getting very fast connections (half the 4G rate, but 2-4x what we would normally expect).

But for Europe the bands are quite aligned for 800/1800/2600, and I'm surprised that Apple isn't producing a variant for that combination (or part of it). I see that Verizon removes DC-HSPA and gets CDMA options - the European market is bigger than Verizon. An 1800/2600 device would even work on our 1800/2600 in Australia.
Perhaps the next iPad?

Almost certainly.
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post #87 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Honestly, I continue to fail to see the problem here. Apple has never said it would work with 4G anywhere but the US and Canada. The only complaint that can be raised is the prominence (or lack thereof) of said disclaimer, not any misleading information.

If Australia had "4G" in its image, then yeah, that's a problem. But if the image from this thread is the image that has always been there, I don't see the issue.

The original advertising had the 4G logo worldwide. Once the complaints started coming in, Apple quickly changed it to remove the 4G logo and clarify it was "ultra-fast wireless" outside North America.

I think the claims are largely overblown. As others have pointed out, the UK hasn't even auctioned the LTE spectrum yet, and there are only a handful of experimental LTE networks in operation. Also, they did boost the 3G capabilities of the new iPad vs. the iPad 2. Apple has since fixed the advertising, and the most prominent feature advertised is the Retina Display, rather than LTE or wireless capabilities. Apple will likely be more careful in the future.
post #88 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Wow! what a great example of a non sequitur! The favorite tool of the factually bereft. A Lewis Caroll fan perhaps?

So making a car safe, automatic and requiring little mechanical or technical knowledge would also mean a user required zero knowledge of on what or where one can drive them?

Are you here on behalf of an organization? Just curious after reading the Time article I reference in the above post.

Without putting words in the mouth of the original poster, I really think it is a valid point - blocking non Apple approved apps and non Apple approved channels isnt like safety gear in cars, its like when car companies tried to deny warranty coverage because the owner decided to change the oil himself, or took it to a non-dealer auto shop to do so.
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post #89 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

Now wait for the response that anyone in Germany who misunderstood is a "moron" or "can't read" or "can't comprehend" .

How about it's left to the German government to make that call on their citizens, following the lead of other Government agencies in other countries.
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post #90 of 112
[QUOTE=GregAlexander;2091210
But for Europe the bands are quite aligned for 800/1800/2600, and I'm surprised that Apple isn't producing a variant for that combination (or part of it). I see that Verizon removes DC-HSPA and gets CDMA options - the European market is bigger than Verizon. An 1800/2600 device would even work on our 1800/2600 in Australia.
Perhaps the next iPad?

I expect that for the next 2 years, we'll see the 3G networks bump up to DC-HSPA, while localised versions of 4G devices pick just 1 or 2 of the bands that the local country uses, with a fall back to DC-HSPA in that country and when roaming. Data roaming is so expensive that it's better just to leave it turned off, so even 2G roaming will be enough.[/QUOTE]

I think the issue is that Apple would have preferred to wait until the more efficient, smaller 28nm LTE chipsets became widely available (they are just starting to be produced now). The LTE chip they did use is about a year old using a 45nm design. The newer chips also support more frequencies. Since Europe in general is about a year or two behind the US in terms of LTE deployment, Apple likely figured waiting until the next update wouldn't cost them significant sales. In the US, however, there is a big difference between our 3G/HSPA and LTE networks, and lack of LTE would have put the new cellular iPad at a bigger competitive disadvantage.
post #91 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

Without putting words in the mouth of the original poster, I really think it is a valid point - blocking non Apple approved apps and non Apple approved channels isnt like safety gear in cars, its like when car companies tried to deny warranty coverage because the owner decided to change the oil himself, or took it to a non-dealer auto shop to do so.

I would disagree with your initial premise. "Blocking non apple approved apps on a non Apple approved channels" is precisely like putting safety gear in a car IMHO. Given that level of disconnect, sadly, it would be impossible to debate with you since we have zero frame of reference on which to base anything.
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post #92 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

I wish US regulators had the balls of the UK/EU/AUS regulators...

AT&T goes around calling hspa+ "4g" even though the engineering bodies that defined 3g all classify HSPA+ as a 3g technology...Hell, they sell the iphone as 4G now! It should be criminal but in the USA, well, its not.

Maybe if Sprint"s Wimax based 4G network wasn't slower, then T-mobile & AT&T wouldn't have to resort to addressing a perceived marketing disadvantage.

Besides under the original definition based on 4G being at least capable of 100Mbps download speeds, there is no 4G available anywhere on Earth, except in labs.
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post #93 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Wow! what a great example of a non sequitur! The favorite tool of the factually bereft. A Lewis Caroll fan perhaps?

So making a car safe, automatic and requiring little mechanical or technical knowledge would also mean a user required zero knowledge of on what or where one can drive them?

Are you here on behalf of an organization? Just curious after reading the Time article I reference in the above post.


I see your point. In making the iPad, Apple has made the equivalent "safe, automatic, and requiring little mechanical or technical knowledge."

I'm sorry that I didn't realize that the multitude of wireless telecommunications standards had anything to do with "technical knowledge." I never DID understand why companies decided to dumbify it as "2G", "3G", or "4G". It's not like most people don't recognize the differences between TDMA and CDMA based standards-- what idiot isn't going to know the differences between EDGE, UMTS (W-CDMA vs TD-CDMA vs TD-SCDMA), and the like!

Sorry, I have to go for now. I'm about to drive my unsafe car on a road of my choosing to purchase fuel at the gas station of my choosing. I just hope that VW's label of "Unleaded Fuel Only" means the same at each gas station!
post #94 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I would disagree with your initial premise. "Blocking non apple approved apps on a non Apple approved channels" is precisely like putting safety gear in a car IMHO. Given that level of disconnect, sadly, it would be impossible to debate with you since we have zero frame of reference on which to base anything.

For the record-- I completely understand (and in many cases agree with) Apple's attempts to keep the computing experience "clean" for the user, and apparently millions of consumers don't mind it either! But a "safety gear" is a seatbelt, or an airbag. A "safety gear" doesn't restrict who is allowed in the car (that's an anti-theft device).

I think it's more equivalent to, in the name of safety, designing the car such that it will only operate on pre-approved highways (highways that regularly undergo inspection to ensure that they're straight, free of potholes or water gathering areas, free of unsafe vehicles, etc).

Some people could appreciate that. But why can't I change my mind one day, take the responsibility upon myself, and turn the car onto another road? Well, I could (i.e. jailbreaking and whatnot) but it would require me to take the engine apart.
post #95 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by entification View Post

I see your point. In making the iPad, Apple has made the equivalent "safe, automatic, and requiring little mechanical or technical knowledge."

I'm sorry that I didn't realize that the multitude of wireless telecommunications standards had anything to do with "technical knowledge." I never DID understand why companies decided to dumbify it as "2G", "3G", or "4G". It's not like most people don't recognize the differences between TDMA and CDMA based standards-- what idiot isn't going to know the differences between EDGE, UMTS (W-CDMA vs TD-CDMA vs TD-SCDMA), and the like!

Sorry, I have to go for now. I'm about to drive my unsafe car on a road of my choosing to purchase fuel at the gas station of my choosing. I just hope that VW's label of "Unleaded Fuel Only" means the same at each gas station!

Same old semantic tricks, good try. Now why not change out your car's computer software and use something else you can maybe download off of the internet? That's freedom baby! I'm sure it would operate your car's safety systems in an emergency just as well as the one the manufacturer installed.
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post #96 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Same old semantic tricks, good try. Now why not change out your car's computer software and use something else you can maybe download off of the internet? That's freedom baby! I'm sure it would operate your car's safety systems in an emergency just as well as the one the manufacturer installed.

The point is-- I could! (and if you didn't know, there ARE some "car-modders" who do just that-- including "trading code"). Should the manufacturer be responsible for what happens when I do that? No way! Just like the manufacturer wouldn't be responsible if I removed the brakes from my car.

Should Apple be responsible for the unintended effects of changing iOS? Absolutely not! I think it's interesting that (according to the developer previews) their new O/S may be sold with the Mac App Store as the default for installing new software-- but unlike iOS, the user will be able to change the default and install from other sources (that's freedom).

There are some who will choose to stay in Apple's admittedly beautiful but walled garden, and that's freedom (to choose, at least) too.

To each their own religion (or lack). But back to the original point-- when it comes to marketing, there are rules and consumer protections in place for a reason-- lest we "stupids" buy our iPad 100g and be surprised it weighs 6 times that when you don't live on the moon. Outside of the Apple apologists in this thread, the only people I've ever known to actually be fond of fine print are lawyers!
post #97 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lerxt View Post

Geez this discussion is off track. This is simply about whether Apple advertised in the applicable country in a way that is misleading. If they made claims that a reasonable person could be mislead by, then they loose. If they want to sell in OZ or the UK or wherever then they have to comply with the law. Keep it simple.



Save your breath. If Apple had advertised that it weighs .2 pounds* people would defend the ad as strictly factual.




























*on the Moon.
post #98 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by spezi View Post

All legal considerations aside, I think Apple should have right from the start adapted their wording to the countries they target the respective website at. So, for Germany, stress that it supports DC-HSPA with 42 Mbit/s, and maybe as a "bonus" mention, that you can even use LTE if you are in North America. That's plain, simple and straight forward. And I thought, simplicity and being self-explanatory is something that is very important to Apple.


It may be "very important" to Apple, true.

But what is "most important" to Apple is to move merchandise.
post #99 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

But Apple knew that the iPads 4g capability was only applicable in North America yet 4g was a prominently mentioned feature outside of that region. Why even mention it it doesn't apply?

Because it does. There are several forms of 4g, some of which do work in the UK. It's only the LTE kind that doesn't and Apple has been clear where that kind does work.

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post #100 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I can't think of any other example where a colloquial definition created by marketers trumps a formal definition. This whole issue seems so outlandish that perhaps Apple was blindsided by this whole 4G issue.

It's not a colloquial or marketing definition. The standards groups define 4G on being above x speed not how you get there. Just like they defined HD as anything above 640x480.

Not everyone agrees that either group made the right decision and insist that only LTE is 4G and only 1080 is HD.

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post #101 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

Not everyone agrees that either group made the right decision and insist that only LTE is 4G and only 1080 is HD.

But officially there are NO 4G solutions. And AT&T is arguing that even slower data is "4G"

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post #102 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

I'm still stuck in my hospital bed but I asked my husband to stop by the Apple store on the way to visit me to pick up a new Seagate wireless HD. I also asked him to see if there was any disclaimer notifying customers about the 4G issue. There were none, Switzerland doesn't have a LTE network yet. So I understand that consumers should understand what their buying before hand but Apple also needs to point out these faults.

You might not have LTE but you likely do have 4G so you can go 'up to 4G' as Apple states.

To put another way Penicilin is an antibiotic but not all antibiotics are Penicilin.

Quote:
Sorry but Apple needs to clearly notify it's customers before selling something under false pretenses. I know a disclaimer doesn't look good underneath the features list but it seems like it needs to be done as consumers aren't able to do their homework before leaping.

.

They have had disclaimers since the first day that clearly stated where LTE works.

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post #103 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

But officially there are NO 4G solutions. And AT&T is arguing that even slower data is "4G"…

Nice catch TS as I had overlooked that (tho I'm sure its been pointed out before). So its another reason for Apple to be completely clear on what they mean when mentioning 4G and how it applies to the region/country it's being marketed to rather than adding to the confusion.
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post #104 of 112
I don't have a 802.11n access point at home. Can I sue Apple for false advertising?

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post #105 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

I don't have a 802.11n access point at home. Can I sue Apple for false advertising?

If you have one but it still won't work since Apple didn't really make it compatible in the first place....?
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post #106 of 112
People have got to remember that the advertising rules in the UK are strict. You can't use banner-sized text to promote a feature if that feature isn't available in the UK - even if there is a disclaimer in minuscule text later on.
post #107 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

People have got to remember that the advertising rules in the UK are strict. You can't use banner-sized text to promote a feature if that feature isn't available in the UK - even if there is a disclaimer in minuscule text later on.

It's the same here in Australia hence Apple changing it only after they were forced too. Some of the retailers made their own signs in their shops before Apple did the right thing.
post #108 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

It's the same here in Australia hence Apple changing it only after they were forced too. Some of the retailers made their own signs in their shops before Apple did the right thing.

Yes, the actual feature or price has to be as big as the headline if they are not the same and may be misleading. JB Hifi had on release many A4 office-printed signs saying the 4G didn't work on 4G.

Apple doesn't say 4G much online any more... you only see it when you go to buy the iPad, after you've chosen the colour. Then 4G is then mentioned (with the smaller disclaimer as required by the court). And of course 4G is labelled on the side of all the iPad boxes.

I'm surprised that Apple didn't just say "3G" in Australia and elsewhere. If customers are smart enough to understand the reality then this wouldn't make the slightest difference to anyone, as customers know the reality anyway. And for those customers 'not smart enough', they wouldn't have incorrectly thought that the iPad 4G worked on 4G.
post #109 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

If you have one but it still won't work since Apple didn't really make it compatible in the first place....?

Nowhere is Apple claiming compatibility with any bands that aren't part of the iPad. The question is one of the definition of 4G.

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post #110 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Nowhere is Apple claiming compatibility with any bands that aren't part of the iPad. The question is one of the definition of 4G.

You're right TS and I wasn't saying they did. Instead I was trying to get the OP to understand the flaw in his comparison.
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post #111 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by KPOM View Post

I think the issue is that Apple would have preferred to wait until the more efficient, smaller 28nm LTE chipsets became widely available (they are just starting to be produced now). The LTE chip they did use is about a year old using a 45nm design. The newer chips also support more frequencies. Since Europe in general is about a year or two behind the US in terms of LTE deployment, Apple likely figured waiting until the next update wouldn't cost them significant sales. In the US, however, there is a big difference between our 3G/HSPA and LTE networks, and lack of LTE would have put the new cellular iPad at a bigger competitive disadvantage.

I guess the rest of the world would have been far happier if Apple had released, say, a 1800/2100 Mhz LTE device instead of a 700/2100 Mhz for AT&T.

1800Mhz has been the surprise growth area for LTE. Almost every GSM operator started with 900, expanding into 1800 to handle growth, and then 3G on 2100. Now as the pressure for data increases they notice that they don't have anywhere near as many people on 2G anymore and 1800 is almost free, and able to be used for LTE without waiting for auctions in 2600 or the TV frequencies to become available.

So an 1800Mhz iPad would have worked on 15 international LTE networks which use 1800Mhz (Australia, Italy, Finland, Germany, France, Poland, Hong Kong, Singapore, and a few more) - sometimes only on one operator in that country, or one of their LTE bands, but at least partially functional. And LTE on 1800 is growing really fast with more and more providers worldwide each month... so a good frequency to use.

An 1800/2100 LTE device would have genuinely been an LTE device on AT&T, but just not on the 700Mhz bit, where it would have to fall back to HSPA which they call 4G anyway. In theory, anyone in this thread who has supported Apple's calling iPad "LTE" outside the US would have to say this is still entirely valid, right? .... a 1800/2100 iPad just wouldn't work quite as well in the US.
post #112 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

But not the US and Canada..

Europe: 700+M (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe)

N.America: 459M (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra..._North_America)

If you meant LTE market penetration ( which I'm guessing you are) you'd be correct.

Main reasons for the differences being that current deployed HSPA+ networks in europe and asia offer similar or often better service than current deployed LTE networks so the rush to market is smaller.

This situation together with the lack of world mode LTE chipsets is likely the reason there is no Non-North american LTE model yet. there is simply no need for it as HSPA+ offers the same user experience outside N.America and as someone stated product fragmentation is something Apple seems keen to avoid.

Situation will iikely change when one of both of the following happen:
  • a world mode low power LTE chipset becomes available
  • LTE starts offering better service to customers (speed, coverage, battery life etc.) than HSPA+ and Forces the rest of the world to speed up LTE deployment
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