During this Spring Fertility Festival, let's all remember...

Originally Posted by Gatorguy

Odd that you feel so compelled to ridicule all who believe there may be greater powers than themselves along with an idea you can neither prove nor disprove. It comes down to personal belief which bothers you immensely for some reason. Why is that? Is someone in your life belittling your beliefs simply to be be hurtful and you have no choice but to strike out for protection?

I'm not asking for a debate as much as why you feel obliged to ridicule. Surely even atheists still believe in courtesy and respect for others. I've never thought those traits required a belief in a higher power.

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

“This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.’

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Originally Posted by MJ1970

And let's also remember that God even loves hateful, bitter and angry atheists.

Originally Posted by MJ1970

Yes. I have faith that God exists. Just as your faith is such that he doesn't.

I'm not sure it's possible to "falsifiably define god." We're out of the realm of scientific knowledge here.

Originally Posted by Gatorguy

So now you've equated belief in a power higher than yourself with nonacceptance of evolution? I realize that some specific organized religions might believe that, but it certainly isn't universal. Science and faith are not exclusive.
http://www.livescience.com/379-scien...iscipline.html

It seems you're looking for an outlet for your anger and decided people of faith would be a good vessel.

Originally Posted by MJ1970

No they are not "mutually exclusive" so much as they address different aspects of knowledge and understanding. This is a subtle but important difference from what you are claiming.

But, more importantly, the "science" you claim to subscribe to is, in fact, a faith system. For example, your belief that the great diversity of plant and animal life that now exists all evolved from previous forms over millions, billions or trillions of years is, as a matter of fact, a position of faith.

Originally Posted by MJ1970

Exactly.

There's evidence that supports the possibility that that's what happened. But that very same evidence can just as easily be explained by an intelligent designer.

Both positions are faith positions. Neither is provable.

But here I am arguing with a person who doesn't think that anything that cannot be scientifically proven actually exists. Like social contracts for example.

Originally Posted by Gatorguy

Except that I'm not offended. I'm confused why it's so important to you that people who use faith to stabilize and focus their lives should be ridiculed, and it's your job to do so. It's fine that you've chosen the path you have, but with no proof that your disbelief is the truth, why openly mock those who allow faith to comfort them? Apparently you consider your lack of proof for your belief more convincing.

Originally Posted by Gatorguy

None of those would exist without faith, or do they exist in spite of it? Or is it neither and bad things happen and somebody has to take the blame?

Originally Posted by MJ1970

How about we start with not measurable by physical means and measures?

I'd say most the of physical evidence that demonstrates design.

A sentient being that has purpose and intelligence who actively and purposely creates and crafts things.

Your vulgarity doesn't support your case. It only serves as evidence that you have none.

That said, I think you lack a true understanding of what faith is and means. The simple fact is that though there is evidence that some interpret to suggest that evolution has occurred, this is, as a matter of fact, and unprovable claim so faith is required to close the gap and to deny other possible causes.

Dear Dr. Klinghoffer:

Thank you for this interesting and courteous invitation to set up a debate about evolution and creationism (which includes its more recent relabeling as "intelligent design") with a speaker from the Discovery Institute. Your invitation is quite surprising, given the sneering coverage of my recent newspaper editorial that you yourself posted on the Discovery Institute's website:

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/02/

However, this kind of two-faced dishonesty is what the scientific community has come to expect from the creationists.

Academic debate on controversial topics is fine, but those topics need to have a basis in reality. I would not invite a creationist to a debate on campus for the same reason that I would not invite an alchemist, a flat-earther, an astrologer, a psychic, or a Holocaust revisionist. These ideas have no scientific support, and that is why they have all been discarded by credible scholars. Creationism is in the same category.

Instead of spending time on public debates, why aren't members of your institute publishing their ideas in prominent peer-reviewed journals such as Science, Nature, or the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences? If you want to be taken seriously by scientists and scholars, this is where you need to publish. Academic publishing is an intellectual free market, where ideas that have credible empirical support are carefully and thoroughly explored. Nothing could possibly be more exciting and electrifying to biology than scientific disproof of evolutionary theory or scientific proof of the existence of a god. That would be Nobel Prize winning work, and it would be eagerly published by any of the prominent mainstream journals.

"Conspiracy" is the predictable response by Ben Stein and the frustrated creationists. But conspiracy theories are a joke, because science places a high premium on intellectual honesty and on new empirical studies that overturn previously established principles. Creationism doesn't live up to these standards, so its proponents are relegated to the sidelines, publishing in books, blogs, websites, and obscure journals that don't maintain scientific standards.

Finally, isn't it sort of pathetic that your large, well-funded institute must scrape around, panhandling for a seminar invitation at a little university in northern New England? Practicing scientists receive frequent invitations to speak in science departments around the world, often on controversial and novel topics. If creationists actually published some legitimate science, they would receive such invitations as well.

So, I hope you understand why I am declining your offer. I will wait patiently to read about the work of creationists in the pages of Nature and Science. But until it appears there, it isn't science and doesn't merit an invitation.

In closing, I do want to thank you sincerely for this invitation and for your posting on the Discovery Institute Website. As an evolutionary biologist, I can't tell you what a badge of honor this is. My colleagues will be envious.

Sincerely yours,

Nick Gotelli

P.S. I hope you will forgive me if I do not respond to any further e-mails from you or from the Discovery Institute. This has been entertaining, but it interferes with my research and teaching.

Originally Posted by BRussell

Ha, I'm sure BR loves the fact that Easter is determined by pagan-like astronomical means. This got me thinking - I believe that Jesus was an historical figure and that he was executed by the Romans. But that's about all we know for sure. Even Christians acknowledge (I think - I hope) that we have no idea when the historical Jesus was born. What about his execution? It seems awfully coincidental that the most important Christian day comes during the most important Jewish religious week.