or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › During this Spring Fertility Festival, let's all remember...
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

During this Spring Fertility Festival, let's all remember...

post #1 of 110
Thread Starter 


and...



Happy Stolen Pagan Holiday!

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #2 of 110
And let's also remember that God even loves hateful, bitter and angry atheists.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #3 of 110
Odd that you feel so compelled to ridicule all who believe there may be greater powers than themselves along with an idea you can neither prove nor disprove. It comes down to personal belief which bothers you immensely for some reason. Why is that? Is someone in your life belittling your beliefs simply to be be hurtful and you have no choice but to strike out for protection?

I'm not asking for a debate as much as why you feel obliged to ridicule. Surely even atheists still believe in courtesy and respect for others. I've never thought those traits required a belief in a higher power.
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #4 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Odd that you feel so compelled to ridicule all who believe there may be greater powers than themselves along with an idea you can neither prove nor disprove. It comes down to personal belief which bothers you immensely for some reason. Why is that? Is someone in your life belittling your beliefs simply to be be hurtful and you have no choice but to strike out for protection?

I'm not asking for a debate as much as why you feel obliged to ridicule. Surely even atheists still believe in courtesy and respect for others. I've never thought those traits required a belief in a higher power.

Of all the places to agree with someone and of all the people with whom to agree

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply
post #5 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Odd that you feel so compelled to ridicule all who believe there may be greater powers than themselves along with an idea you can neither prove nor disprove. It comes down to personal belief which bothers you immensely for some reason. Why is that? Is someone in your life belittling your beliefs simply to be be hurtful and you have no choice but to strike out for protection?

Why do all beliefs deserve respect? If one makes the assertion that a Lich King demands your love or else you will be damned eternally, am I not allowed to laugh? Am I not required to laugh when those believers attempt to influence governmental policy?

Quote:
I'm not asking for a debate as much as why you feel obliged to ridicule. Surely even atheists still believe in courtesy and respect for others. I've never thought those traits required a belief in a higher power.

I feel obliged to ridicule the ridiculous because those who believe most fervently have taken it upon themselves to legislate their fantasy-based morality across this nation. Maybe I'd keep the ridicule to myself if they would obey Matthew 6:5-14.
Quote:
“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

“This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.’

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Seriously though. In 2012, we still have people believe that someone rose from the dead? REALLY?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #6 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

And let's also remember that God even loves hateful, bitter and angry atheists.

Begging the question! BEGGING THE QUESTION! Falsifiably define god before saying what it does or doesn't do.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #7 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Why do all beliefs deserve respect? If one makes the assertion that a Lich King demands your love or else you will be damned eternally, am I not allowed to laugh? Am I not required to laugh when those believers attempt to influence governmental policy?

Of course you're allowed to. Why do you feel you need to publicly do so? Surely there's more to this than you simply believe there's nothing more powerful or knowing than you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I feel obliged to ridicule the ridiculous because those who believe most fervently have taken it upon themselves to legislate their fantasy-based morality across this nation.

What laws are bothersome to you, impacting your life enough to draw your anger, that wouldn't exist if it were't for principles held by some with belief in a higher power? Are any of those basic beliefs in how we should treat each other held by atheists too?[/QUOTE]


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Seriously though. In 2012, we still have people believe that someone rose from the dead? REALLY?

That bothers you enough to treat them with disrespect? Is it just the "raising of the dead" that you wish wouldn't be discussed, but other beliefs might be OK?
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #8 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Begging the question! BEGGING THE QUESTION!

Yes. I have faith that God exists. Just as your faith is such that he doesn't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Falsifiably define god...

I'm not sure it's possible to "falsifiably define god." We're out of the realm of scientific knowledge here.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #9 of 110
Thread Starter 
In response to Gatorguy...

Intelligent Design in schools. Stem-cell research roadblocks and outright bans. The hypocritical New York mosque fiasco. Marriage discrimination. Forcing women to give birth to nonviable fetuses. Instituting rape-by-instrument against women who want abortions. Brainwashing generations of children to be unthinking and incurious. Institutional cover-ups of mass child rape. Supporting churches in Uganda that literally BURN homosexuals and people accused of witchcraft. Lowering the standards of national discourse by claiming their magic trumps science. Taxpayer funded/subsidized "creation museums" that promote scientific illiteracy in children.

Eh, I'm hungry. I'll stop listing things for now. I could go on, though.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #10 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes. I have faith that God exists. Just as your faith is such that he doesn't.

I'm an agnostic atheist as well as a theological noncognitivist. My position does not require any faith whatsoever. Also...




Quote:
I'm not sure it's possible to "falsifiably define god." We're out of the realm of scientific knowledge here.

Then we have nothing to discuss. I should have no reason whatsoever to give any credence to your beliefs, nor should those beliefs be used to influence social policy.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #11 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Intelligent Design in schools.

You're right. The schools should be privatized.

Then people wishing to have their kids taught evolution can send their kids to schools that teach evolution and people who wish to have their kids taught creationism or intelligent design can send their kids to schools that teach those and those who wish to have both taught can send their kids to those schools.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Stem-cell research roadblocks and outright bans.

Actually, as I recall it, there never any actual bans on that research merely bans on federal funds being used for it. But again, you're right, let's privatize science so those who wish to fund this research can give their money to it and those who don't can give their money to other things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The hypocritical New York mosque fiasco.

You're right. Let's privatize land use.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Marriage discrimination.

You're right. Let's privatize private relationships.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Forcing women to give birth to nonviable fetuses. Instituting rape-by-instrument against women who want abortions.




Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Brainwashing generations of children to be unthinking and incurious.

Yes, the government schools are terrible about this. We should privatize education.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Institutional cover-ups of mass child rape.




Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Supporting churches in Uganda that literally BURN homosexuals and people accused of witchcraft.

WHo is doing this?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Lowering the standards of national discourse by claiming their magic trumps science.

Well, lets not bring Keynesian economics into this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Taxpayer funded/subsidized "creation museums" that promote scientific illiteracy in children.

You're right. Let's privatize museums so that people who want museums related to creation can fund them with their own money and people who want other museums can fund those with their own money.


Great! You've made a strong case for privatizing quite a few institutions that really would be better off without government involvement.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #12 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I'm an agnostic atheist as well as a theological noncognitivist. My position does not require any faith whatsoever.

So then you don't deny the possibility that a deity exists?

*Note the claim of no faith required holds in it a contradiction with the agnostic position (belief/faith) that some things are unknown and/or unknowable. This is a position of faith.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Then we have nothing to discuss.

If that's how you feel. Apparently you're claiming that there is no other knowledge than scientific knowledge.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I should have no reason whatsoever to give any credence to your beliefs

Given the hatefulness and bigotry that you demonstrate toward some people, I suppose I could say the same about yours.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

nor should those beliefs be used to influence social policy.

So I should be disallowed from engaging in the public discourse, voting or advocating policies because I don't agree with you. Got it.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #13 of 110
Thread Starter 
When your political beliefs can be accurately summed up by a phrase as simple and idiotic as...






There's just so much wrong with what you want for this nation, I don't have the energy to deal with you. Thankfully, you are a wacky fringe element and the policies you desire really have no chance of happening. Meanwhile, the number of those with no religion in this country is growing. We're already much larger than the gays and the Mormons.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #14 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

When your political beliefs can be accurately summed up by a phrase as simple and idiotic as...

I guess you're not serious about having an intelligent discussion. This doesn't surprise me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

There's just so much wrong with what you want for this nation,

I understand that you disagree with many of my views. I believe there's much wrong with what you want for this nation also. So there we are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I don't have the energy to deal with you.

All evidence to the contrary.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Thankfully, you are a wacky fringe element...

How very...umm...scientific of you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Meanwhile, the number of those with no religion in this country is growing. We're already much larger than the gays and the Mormons.

OK. Ummm...whatever.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #15 of 110

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #16 of 110
Thread Starter 

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #17 of 110
BR, I'm truly and sincerely very sorry if someone who called themselves a Christian did something terrible and hurtful to you in your life.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #18 of 110
Thread Starter 
You do something terrible and hurtful to all of society when you promote ignorance over science. I accept your apology, but it rings hollow when you don't stop your hurtful behavior.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #19 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You do something terrible and hurtful to all of society when you promote ignorance over science. I accept your apology, but it rings hollow when you don't stop your hurtful behavior.

Actually, it's not an apology because I have not personally done anything hurtful to you. It was an expression of regret over whatever and whoever has done something hurtful to you to cause the anger, bitterness and religious bigotry that you frequently demonstrate.

Furthermore, since I don't "promote ignorance over science" we simply disagree.

That said, I hope one day you'll be able to get past your anger, bitterness, hatefulness and religious bigotry.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #20 of 110
Thread Starter 
The is overwhelming scientific consensus about evolution. You promote ignorance over science.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #21 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The is overwhelming scientific consensus about evolution. You promote ignorance over science.

You'll have to learn to accept that there are people who legitimately disagree with you BR your attempts to bully them into agreeing with you notwithstanding.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #22 of 110
Thread Starter 
It's not about disagreeing with me. It's about disagreeing with reality--and then teaching the next generation to do so as well.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #23 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The is overwhelming scientific consensus about evolution. You promote ignorance over science.

So now you've equated belief in a power higher than yourself with nonacceptance of evolution? I realize that some specific organized religions might believe that, but it certainly isn't universal. Science and faith are not exclusive.
http://www.livescience.com/379-scien...iscipline.html

It seems you're looking for an outlet for your anger and decided people of faith would be a good vessel.
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #24 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

So now you've equated belief in a power higher than yourself with nonacceptance of evolution? I realize that some specific organized religions might believe that, but it certainly isn't universal. Science and faith are not exclusive.
http://www.livescience.com/379-scien...iscipline.html

It seems you're looking for an outlet for your anger and decided people of faith would be a good vessel.

MJ is a denier of evolution. Sure, there are some religions that don't poo-poo all of science--but they still believe in magic.

So, again, not what I said. And your article doesn't point out that science and faith are not exclusive. There's a thing called compartmentalization. The faith aspect cannot be examined scientifically. It has no basis in reality. Some people are able to hold contradictory ideas in their minds at the same time. Science and faith do contradict. Some people are able to live with such a contradiction. Some will rationalize it, but that's when they start making bigger mistakes.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #25 of 110
And the award for the best sweeping generalizations goes to BR!

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #26 of 110
Thread Starter 
That science and faith contradict? Science is about evidence and learning about the universe. Faith is about belief without evidence. It's not so much a generalization but rather a matter of definition. Science and faith fundamentally are mutually exclusive. Of course, some people can live with that contradiction and pretend there isn't one. That's where Gator apparently is offended.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #27 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

That science and faith contradict? Science is about evidence and learning about the universe. Faith is about belief without evidence. It's not so much a generalization but rather a matter of definition. Science and faith fundamentally are mutually exclusive.

No they are not "mutually exclusive" so much as they address different aspects of knowledge and understanding. This is a subtle but important difference from what you are claiming.

But, more importantly, the "science" you claim to subscribe to is, in fact, a faith system. For example, your belief that the great diversity of plant and animal life that now exists all evolved from previous forms over millions, billions or trillions of years is, as a matter of fact, a position of faith. This is an unprovable claim.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #28 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

No they are not "mutually exclusive" so much as they address different aspects of knowledge and understanding. This is a subtle but important difference from what you are claiming.

Science covers the natural world. Show evidence that anything beyond that exists. Until then, this "additional aspect of knowledge" is just wishful thinking and made up nonsense.

Quote:
But, more importantly, the "science" you claim to subscribe to is, in fact, a faith system. For example, your belief that the great diversity of plant and animal life that now exists all evolved from previous forms over millions, billions or trillions of years is, as a matter of fact, a position of faith.

You can underline fact all you want, except you aren't really supporting your argument at all. How is it faith? There exists evidence--mountains of it--that supports evolution. Show evidence that your hypothesis is correct and maybe you can gain some traction. Where's the evidence for your hypothesis?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #29 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Science covers the natural world.

Exactly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Show evidence that anything beyond that exists. Until then, this "additional aspect of knowledge" is just wishful thinking and made up nonsense.

Thanks for clarifying your statement of faith.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You can underline fact all you want, except you aren't really supporting your argument at all. How is it faith?

Because it is an unprovable claim.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

There exists evidence--mountains of it--that support evolution.

There's evidence that supports the possibility that that's what happened. But that very same evidence can just as easily be explained by an intelligent designer.

Both positions are faith positions. Neither is provable.

But here I am arguing with a person who doesn't think that anything that cannot be scientifically proven actually exists. Like social contracts for example.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #30 of 110
Ha, I'm sure BR loves the fact that Easter is determined by pagan-like astronomical means. This got me thinking - I believe that Jesus was an historical figure and that he was executed by the Romans. But that's about all we know for sure. Even Christians acknowledge (I think - I hope) that we have no idea when the historical Jesus was born. What about his execution? It seems awfully coincidental that the most important Christian day comes during the most important Jewish religious week.
post #31 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

That science and faith contradict? Science is about evidence and learning about the universe. Faith is about belief without evidence. It's not so much a generalization but rather a matter of definition. Science and faith fundamentally are mutually exclusive. Of course, some people can live with that contradiction and pretend there isn't one. That's where Gator apparently is offended.

Except that I'm not offended. I'm confused why it's so important to you that people who use faith to stabilize and focus their lives should be ridiculed, and it's your job to do so. It's fine that you've chosen the path you have, but with no proof that your disbelief is the truth, why openly mock those who allow faith to comfort them? Apparently you consider your lack of proof for your belief more convincing.
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #32 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Exactly.

Please define what it means to be "not of the natural world."

Quote:
There's evidence that supports the possibility that that's what happened. But that very same evidence can just as easily be explained by an intelligent designer.

Please show evidence of said intelligent designer. Please define intelligent designer. So, are you saying that evolution happened but it was an intelligent designer behind making all the moves? I don't see any reason to add in that extra layer of complexity. To quote Laplace: "I have no need for that hypothesis."

Quote:
Both positions are faith positions. Neither is provable.

You keep saying that word faith, but it does not mean what you think it means.

Faith is belief without evidence. There is evidence for evolution. Plenty of it. Ergo, evolution does not require faith. It's that fucking simple.


Quote:
But here I am arguing with a person who doesn't think that anything that cannot be scientifically proven actually exists. Like social contracts for example.

Incorrect. Non sequitur.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #33 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Except that I'm not offended. I'm confused why it's so important to you that people who use faith to stabilize and focus their lives should be ridiculed, and it's your job to do so. It's fine that you've chosen the path you have, but with no proof that your disbelief is the truth, why openly mock those who allow faith to comfort them? Apparently you consider your lack of proof for your belief more convincing.

Why do I need proof to disbelieve in a magic sky father? I'm not the one making the assertion and then influencing other people's lives based on my fantasies. I don't need to prove a negative. I don't need to disprove Christ more than you need to disprove a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Christians don't feel the need to disprove Zeus, Odin, Mithras, or any host of other deities, either. I just take it one deity further, to the logical conclusion.

You are also, again, begging the question that all faith does is provide comfort. If that's ALL faith did, I wouldn't be railing against it so hard. I gave you a list of what faith has enabled, though. That's my problem with faith.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #34 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Please define what it means to be "not of the natural world."

How about we start with not measurable by physical means and measures?



Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Please show evidence of said intelligent designer.

I'd say most the of physical evidence that demonstrates design.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Please define intelligent designer.

A sentient being that has purpose and intelligence who actively and purposely creates and crafts things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So, are you saying that evolution happened but it was an intelligent designer behind making all the moves?

No. But that is certainly a possibility.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I don't see any reason to add in that extra layer of complexity. To quote Laplace: "I have no need for that hypothesis."

OK. Good for you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You keep saying that word faith, but it does not mean what you think it means.

Faith is belief without evidence. There is evidence for evolution. Plenty of it. Ergo, evolution does not require faith. It's that fucking simple.

Your vulgarity doesn't support your case. It only serves as evidence that you have none. That said, I think you lack a true understanding of what faith is and means. The simple fact is that though there is evidence that some interpret to suggest that evolution has occurred, this is, as a matter of fact, and unprovable claim so faith is required to close the gap and to deny other possible causes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Incorrect. Non sequitur.

Scientifically prove social contracts then.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #35 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I gave you a list of what faith has enabled, though. That's my problem with faith.

None of those would exist without faith, or do they exist in spite of it? Or is it neither and bad things happen and somebody has to take the blame?
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #36 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

None of those would exist without faith, or do they exist in spite of it? Or is it neither and bad things happen and somebody has to take the blame?

Religion enables that kind of magical thinking. It's irrationality that is the root cause, sure. It manifests itself here in the US as deity worship. It manifested itself in the USSR as state worship. Regardless, it was belief without evidence. It was anathema to science--and it stunts our progress.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #37 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It manifested itself in the USSR as state worship.

Wow. That's rich (and profoundly ironic) coming from you.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #38 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

How about we start with not measurable by physical means and measures?

What's that mean? How do you know it exists? By the way, I'm also assuming that indirect evidence also doesn't count. You can't physically see electric field lines but you can indirectly view them.

Quote:
I'd say most the of physical evidence that demonstrates design.

How?

Quote:
A sentient being that has purpose and intelligence who actively and purposely creates and crafts things.

What sort of being? Be specific.


Quote:
Your vulgarity doesn't support your case. It only serves as evidence that you have none.

Vulgarity doesn't prove or disprove anything other than one enjoys colorful metaphors. Also, Jesus is not a fan of eating Skittles, for obvious reasons.

Quote:
That said, I think you lack a true understanding of what faith is and means. The simple fact is that though there is evidence that some interpret to suggest that evolution has occurred, this is, as a matter of fact, and unprovable claim so faith is required to close the gap and to deny other possible causes.

Again, you only demonstrate your lack of understanding of what evolution is and the mountains of evidence in favor of it explaining how life progressed from the first single-celled organism to today.

Let me post this letter from a professor to an intelligent design "research" institute. Perhaps it will make things more clear.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2...equests_to.php

Quote:
Dear Dr. Klinghoffer:

Thank you for this interesting and courteous invitation to set up a debate about evolution and creationism (which includes its more recent relabeling as "intelligent design") with a speaker from the Discovery Institute. Your invitation is quite surprising, given the sneering coverage of my recent newspaper editorial that you yourself posted on the Discovery Institute's website:

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/02/

However, this kind of two-faced dishonesty is what the scientific community has come to expect from the creationists.

Academic debate on controversial topics is fine, but those topics need to have a basis in reality. I would not invite a creationist to a debate on campus for the same reason that I would not invite an alchemist, a flat-earther, an astrologer, a psychic, or a Holocaust revisionist. These ideas have no scientific support, and that is why they have all been discarded by credible scholars. Creationism is in the same category.

Instead of spending time on public debates, why aren't members of your institute publishing their ideas in prominent peer-reviewed journals such as Science, Nature, or the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences? If you want to be taken seriously by scientists and scholars, this is where you need to publish. Academic publishing is an intellectual free market, where ideas that have credible empirical support are carefully and thoroughly explored. Nothing could possibly be more exciting and electrifying to biology than scientific disproof of evolutionary theory or scientific proof of the existence of a god. That would be Nobel Prize winning work, and it would be eagerly published by any of the prominent mainstream journals.


"Conspiracy" is the predictable response by Ben Stein and the frustrated creationists. But conspiracy theories are a joke, because science places a high premium on intellectual honesty and on new empirical studies that overturn previously established principles. Creationism doesn't live up to these standards, so its proponents are relegated to the sidelines, publishing in books, blogs, websites, and obscure journals that don't maintain scientific standards.

Finally, isn't it sort of pathetic that your large, well-funded institute must scrape around, panhandling for a seminar invitation at a little university in northern New England? Practicing scientists receive frequent invitations to speak in science departments around the world, often on controversial and novel topics. If creationists actually published some legitimate science, they would receive such invitations as well.

So, I hope you understand why I am declining your offer. I will wait patiently to read about the work of creationists in the pages of Nature and Science. But until it appears there, it isn't science and doesn't merit an invitation.

In closing, I do want to thank you sincerely for this invitation and for your posting on the Discovery Institute Website. As an evolutionary biologist, I can't tell you what a badge of honor this is. My colleagues will be envious.

Sincerely yours,

Nick Gotelli

P.S. I hope you will forgive me if I do not respond to any further e-mails from you or from the Discovery Institute. This has been entertaining, but it interferes with my research and teaching.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #39 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

Ha, I'm sure BR loves the fact that Easter is determined by pagan-like astronomical means. This got me thinking - I believe that Jesus was an historical figure and that he was executed by the Romans. But that's about all we know for sure. Even Christians acknowledge (I think - I hope) that we have no idea when the historical Jesus was born. What about his execution? It seems awfully coincidental that the most important Christian day comes during the most important Jewish religious week.

Very interesting indeed.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #40 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Again, you only demonstrate your lack of understanding of what evolution is and the mountains of evidence in favor of it explaining how life progressed from the first single-celled organism to today.

What you are demonstrating is an astonishing capacity for evasion and misdirection.

This is a simple fact: The claim that the array of plant and animal life that exists progressed from a first single-celled organism is not a provable claim. Belief in it is a faith proposition.

Anyway...it's been fun. Clearly we disagree. That's fine.

The difference is that you'll continue arrogantly assuming I'm wrong and spouting hateful things about people of religious faith despite your obvious faith in so many things.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › During this Spring Fertility Festival, let's all remember...