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During this Spring Fertility Festival, let's all remember... - Page 2

post #41 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Religion enables that kind of magical thinking. It's irrationality that is the root cause, sure. It manifests itself here in the US as deity worship. It manifested itself in the USSR as state worship. Regardless, it was belief without evidence. It was anathema to science--and it stunts our progress.

You answered so quickly I don't believe you actually thought about what I was asking. It doesn't answer the question posed. It appears more that you just couldn't wait to get your next thought out instead of hearing what was asked.
melior diabolus quem scies
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melior diabolus quem scies
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post #42 of 110
Thread Starter 
MJ, You are erecting a strawman. Evolution does not say there was one and only one single-celled organism that all life sprang from. Also, please define what makes a claim provable and why your god is exempt from the same standards of evidence.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #43 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

You answered so quickly I don't believe you actually thought about what I was asking. It doesn't answer the question posed. It appears more that you just couldn't wait to get your next thought out instead of hearing what was asked.

Disagree. I may have interpreted your question differently than how you intended. However, instead of condescension, you could rephrase and reiterate. You clearly didn't choose that route, though.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #44 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

Ha, I'm sure BR loves the fact that Easter is determined by pagan-like astronomical means. This got me thinking - I believe that Jesus was an historical figure and that he was executed by the Romans. But that's about all we know for sure. Even Christians acknowledge (I think - I hope) that we have no idea when the historical Jesus was born. What about his execution? It seems awfully coincidental that the most important Christian day comes during the most important Jewish religious week.

Why do you say it "seems awfully coincidental?"

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #45 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

MJ, You are erecting a strawman. Evolution does not say there was one and only one single-celled organism that all life sprang from.

I was merely quoting you. But this changes nothing and is simply another attempt at misdirection. It doesn't matter if it was one or a million. The basic claim that the complex beings that exist today evolved from other things long in the past is not a provable claim.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #46 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Disagree. I may have interpreted your question differently than how you intended. However, instead of condescension, you could rephrase and reiterate. You clearly didn't choose that route, though.

You're attempting to counsel someone of civil and respectful debate and discussion has all the makings of comedy gold.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #47 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I was merely quoting you. But this changes nothing and is simply another attempt at misdirection. It doesn't matter if it was one or a million. The basic claim that the complex beings that exist today evolved from other things long in the past is not a provable claim.

What is your standard of evidence for something to be "provable" and why does it not apply to your assertions about deities?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #48 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You're attempting to counsel someone of civil and respectful debate and discussion has all the makings of comedy gold.

Did I say something false there? Is this you being civil and respectful? Comedy gold indeed.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #49 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Did I say something false there?

No. It's just hilarious (to not mention hypocritical) seeing you counsel anyone on matters of civil and respectful discussion.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #50 of 110
Thread Starter 
Does it make you a hypocrite to also then jump in with disrespectful responses while pointing at someone else's perceived disrespect? Does that make you a metahypocrite?


Anyway, MJ, you clearly need to do some reading and learning about what evolution is and what proof exists for it. Here's a good place to start. Maybe you will not be so incurious as to actually take a little time and learn something new. One can only hope, anyway.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib...0_0_0/lines_01

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #51 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Does it make you a hypocrite to also then jump in with disrespectful responses while pointing at someone else's perceived disrespect? Does that make you a metahypocrite?

Nope.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Anyway, MJ, you clearly need to do some reading and learning about what evolution is and what proof exists for it. Here's a good place to start.

I think the word you meant to use there was "evidence." It's amazing how unscientific you are for someone who spouts so many hateful things against people you think are being unscientific or "promoting ignorance."

Anyway...you'll let me know when the specific claims of the evolution of the species has been proven won't you?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #52 of 110
Thread Starter 
So you won't read. Figures.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib...0_0_0/lines_01

Here it is again. Click. Read. Learn something. Oh wait, you don't want to learn. You are the stereotypical incurious, ignorant Christian. Don't want to be treated like the stereotype? Stop being the motherfucking stereotype.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib...0_0_0/lines_01

Read. Learn something new. See the evidence that exists for evolution. Your refusal is akin to you closing your eyes, putting your fingers in your ears, and shouting, "LALALALLALALALALLALALALLALALALALLALALALALALALALAL LALALALALALALALALLA!"

Prove me wrong. Read. Learn something new.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib...0_0_0/lines_01

There will be a quiz.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #53 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So you won't read. Figures.

No. I'm aware of the evidence. I'm telling you that what is claimed is not and cannot be proven.

Perhaps you are the one who needs to do some reading and learning.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Oh wait, you don't want to learn. You are the stereotypical incurious, ignorant Christian.

You can't help it can you?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #54 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Why do you say it "seems awfully coincidental?"

Because the early Christians wanted Jews to convert to Christianity, and so timing its most important day at the same time as the most important Jewish day would ease the transition.
post #55 of 110
Thread Starter 
So you won't read. Figures.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib...0_0_0/lines_01

Here it is again. Click. Read. Learn something. Oh wait, you don't want to learn. You are the stereotypical incurious, ignorant Christian. Don't want to be treated like the stereotype? Stop being the motherfucking stereotype.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib...0_0_0/lines_01

Read. Learn something new. See the evidence that exists for evolution. Your refusal is akin to you closing your eyes, putting your fingers in your ears, and shouting, "LALALALLALALALALLALALALLALALALALLALALALALALALALAL LALALALALALALALALLA!"

Prove me wrong. Read. Learn something new.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib...0_0_0/lines_01

There will be a quiz.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #56 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

Because the early Christians wanted Jews to convert to Christianity, and so timing its most important day at the same time as the most important Jewish day would ease the transition.

Are you implying that early Christians some how staged the event?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #57 of 110
Hey look! BR has started spamming.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #58 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Are you implying that early Christians some how staged the event?

You should go back and read my post.
post #59 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Hey look! BR has started spamming.

Hey look, MJ won't read and learn something new.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib...0_0_0/lines_01

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #60 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

You should go back and read my post.

That doesn't answer my question.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #61 of 110
Hey look, BR thinks that the evolution of the species has been proven folks.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #62 of 110
Thread Starter 
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib...0_0_0/lines_01

Quote:
At the heart of evolutionary theory is the basic idea that life has existed for billions of years and has changed over time.

Overwhelming evidence supports this fact. Scientists continue to argue about details of evolution, but the question of whether life has a long history or not was answered in the affirmative at least two centuries ago.

The history of living things is documented through multiple lines of evidence that converge to tell the story of life through time. In this section, we will explore the lines of evidence that are used to reconstruct this story.

He laughs, but won't read.

Who do you believe can put some meaning in your life,
Meaning in your life, meaning in your life?
Who do you conceive to provide you guidance and light,
Guidance and light, guidance and light?
Are they waiting for you in the by and by?
Do you even have to try?

Headed for eternity and destined for nothing,
The future isn't difficult to see.
It's easy to confuse grand design with life's repercussions,
Lament not your vanquished fantasy.
It's only destiny.

Why do you consent to live in ignorance and fear,
Ignorance and fear, ignorance and fear?
Ancient people succumbed to it, can it happen here,
Can it happen here, can it happen here?
Does it make you suffer 'cause you have to die?
Is it best to live a lie?

Headed for eternity and destined for nothing,
The future isn't difficult to see.
It's easy to confuse grand design with life's repercussions,
Lament not your vanquished fantasy.
It's only destiny.

Why can't you see?
There ain't no destiny.
For you and me,
There ain't no destiny.
(Why can't you see?) Why can't you see?
(No destiny) (There ain't no destiny) There ain't no destiny.
(Why can't you see?) For you and me,
(No destiny) (There ain't no destiny) There ain't no destiny!

Headed for eternity and destined for nothing,
The future isn't difficult to see.
It's easy to confuse grand design with life's repercussions,
Lament not your vanquished fantasy.
It's only destiny.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #63 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

That doesn't answer my question.

I thought it was clear that I was talking about the date, not the event itself. The analogy is to Christmas - we know Jesus was born, we just don't know when. Same with Easter - I'm wondering if the observed date was just made up.
post #64 of 110
Thread Starter 

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #65 of 110
Thread Starter 
MJ, the real issue is that your faith requires you to deny what is known by science. If new evidence were to emerge that disproved evolution or proved the existence of a deity, scientists would be forced to change their views. There's a lot of unknowns in this universe--and that's OK for rational thinkers. You start with the answer and either twist reality to fit or deny reality altogether.

I put my trust in science because science self-corrects. I do not trust faith because anything is justifiable if the burden of proof is merely "I really really really super-duper really believe it."

You are the modern version of an alchemist or an astrologer.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #66 of 110

do you mean even the existence of Jesus? From your link:
Quote:
Most contemporary scholars agree that Jesus was a Jew who was regarded as a teacher and healer, that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman Prefect of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, on the charge of sedition against the Roman Empire.

My sense is that there are very few scholars who doubt the existence of Jesus. Bart Ehrman, who is a well-known Jesus scholar and author of books like "Forged" about the Bible, recently wrote a book debunking that view and arguing why scholars believe Jesus existed (I haven't read it yet, but his other books are really easy to read).
post #67 of 110
Thread Starter 
There seems to be a bit of conflict (and conflict of interest) amongst the Christians who believe in Christ determining whether or not a historical Jesus existed. The last sentence in the myth section links to this citation:
Quote:
True, at one point in time, the question of Jesus' historicity was a much more popular one for discussion than it is now, but the issue is far from resolved today

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #68 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'd say most the of physical evidence that demonstrates design.

I'd settle for just ONE example of this.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #69 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

I thought it was clear that I was talking about the date, not the event itself. The analogy is to Christmas - we know Jesus was born, we just don't know when. Same with Easter - I'm wondering if the observed date was just made up.

While his exact birth date may be in greater question, biblical text place his execution at passover.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #70 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

MJ, the real issue is that your faith requires you to deny what is known by science.

Of course that's not true and it is a ridiculous thing to say.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I put my trust in science because science self-corrects. I do not trust faith because anything is justifiable if the burden of proof is merely "I really really really super-duper really believe it."

And you don't even see the irony in your statement here.

Oh well.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #71 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I'd settle for just ONE example of this.

Can an explosion in a printing shop produce a dictionary?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #72 of 110
I think it's important to note that the Christians here in PO are not going out of their way to mock, insult, ridicule, and attack atheists at every opportunity.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #73 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Begging the question! BEGGING THE QUESTION! Falsifiably define god before saying what it does or doesn't do.

Falsifiably prove you exist. Tell what your control is on the experiment.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #74 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

While his exact birth date may be in greater question, biblical text place his execution at passover.

Yes it does, but remember the Gospels were written many decades after the events, by no one who actually witnessed it. What I'm saying is that it's possible that he was crucified in, say, November, but the story was changed as it was passed down for the next 50 years, and by the time it was written it was changed to the most important Jewish religious day.

As for the accuracy of Biblical text, here's my favorite Easter story: Virtually all Bible scholars, even conservative ones, know today that the ending of the Gospel of Mark was not part of the original. (See here.) None of the earliest manuscripts of Mark have the ending, and only the later ones do. Modern Bibles have the last several verses bracketed off or asterisked. Go ahead and look at yours.

What's funny is that the added passage, which comes right aft the "empty tomb" story, contains this:
Quote:
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Exorcism, speaking in tongues, handling snakes, healing, all the crazy stuff that the charismatics do, those things are all in that one sentence that isn't even really in the Bible. Oops.
post #75 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

Yes it does, but remember the Gospels were written many decades after the events, by no one who actually witnessed it. What I'm saying is that it's possible that he was crucified in, say, November, but the story was changed as it was passed down for the next 50 years, and by the time it was written it was changed to the most important Jewish religious day.

You're putting authorship rather late here and implying something that evidence suggests differently...that these accounts were written within the lifetimes of and by people who had witnessed them.

Standard scholarly dating (even among liberal scholars) puts the days around 70-80 (at most 40-50 year after Jesus's death) for Matthew and Mark. But there is also evidence that all gospels were written before 70 (so possibly much closer to his death.) But even with the slightly later dating this doesn't put it outside the lifetimes of direct witnesses...including those who would want to be sure the truth was told and not altered for other purposes like you suggest.

One additional important point is the culture of communication in that day and among the Jews. It is said that the Jews had a strong oral communication tradition and were conditioned and trained to be able to remember and communicate things, including their history, orally.

Finally, and related, you seem to imply that something unwritten has less possibility of accuracy or veracity. This isn't necessarily true at all. In fact to suggest that is a tad dangerous because it would suggest that a written lie would have greater weight than a spoken truth.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #76 of 110
I want to note that science we can't falsifiably prove that BR exists, that anyone who interacts with him is a myth believing nutjob and deserves to be treated badly per his own reasoning.

Perhaps he will treat himself with contempt now.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #77 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I think it's important to note that the Christians here in PO are not going out of their way to mock, insult, ridicule, and attack atheists at every opportunity.

Nope, just socialists, Keynesians, and anything else considered liberal. ZING!

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #78 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Can an explosion in a printing shop produce a dictionary?

Is that nonsense supposed to pass as evidence? Really?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #79 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Is that nonsense supposed to pass as evidence? Really?

It was a rhetorical question.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #80 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Nope, just socialists, Keynesians, and anything else considered liberal. ZING!

All their theories aren't falsifiable so per your reasoning, it is justified and demanded.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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