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Apple's Thunderbolt Display takes 26% of big-screen computer LCD sales

post #1 of 39
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The 27-inch Apple Thunderbolt Display and legacy Cinema Display are North American market leaders for LED LCD computer screens sized 24 inches and up, accounting for 26.2 percent of the market.

Though Apple leads sales in that market segment, its position has from 2010, when the Apple Cinema Display accounted for 53.3 percent of LED LCD monitors 24 inches and up, according to new data from NPD's DisplaySearch.

Nipping at Apple's heels in the big-screen LCD market is Samsung, which currently accounts for 24.3 percent of sales in that segment. Samsung's market presence in North America is up from 2010, when it had just 12.3 percent of larger computer LCDs.

Samsung did best Apple in sales of LED LCDs sized 24 inches and up outside of North America, taking 34.7 percent of the global market. Apple led that market segment in 2010, but was pushed to second place by Samsung in 2011.

Apple previously offered Cinema Display screens in sizes of 20 inches, 24 inches and 30 inches, but those were discontinued as Apple streamlined its product offerings. In 2010, they were replaced by one 27-inch LED Cinema Display.




Last July, the product was updated and renamed the Apple Thunderbolt Display, a 27-inch LED LCD screen with Thunderbolt I/O technology and built-in docking cables for MacBooks. Any Thunderbolt-enabled Mac notebook can dock with the display to create a full-fledged desktop solution, including a built-in FaceTime HD camera, 2.1 speaker system, and a number of ports including Thunderbolt for daisy chaining up to five devices. Apple also continues to offer the legacy 27-inch Cinema Display.

Tuesday's report is the first major indication of how Apple's Thunderbolt Display performs against competitors in the market. Samsung is one of the world's largest LCD makers, and is the primary supplier of Retina displays for Apple's new iPad.

[ View article on AppleInsider ]
post #2 of 39
If you add this to similar surveys about computers that cost over $1,000 Apple seems to be doing pretty well at the high end all around. This would bode well for them in the TV arena if they venture there with a premium product. Just let it be up to 60" at least please!
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post #3 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

If you add this to similar surveys about computers that cost over $1,000 Apple seems to be doing pretty well at the high end all around. This would bode well for them in the TV arena if they venture there with a premium product. Just let it be up to 60" at least please!

That same mentality doesnt work too well in the TV market - the demand for a range of products of different sizes is very much against what Apple does.

Forget the idea of Apple doing a TV - it just makes more sense to do an Add-on box that they have more control over and is easier for consumers to invest in versus a massively large TV that they keep for 10 years until it breaks. The purchasing decisions behind TVs and the Apple TV is very different. Too different.
post #4 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by diddy View Post

That same mentality doesnt work too well in the TV market - the demand for a range of products of different sizes is very much against what Apple does.

Forget the idea of Apple doing a TV - it just makes more sense to do an Add-on box that they have more control over and is easier for consumers to invest in versus a massively large TV that they keep for 10 years until it breaks. The purchasing decisions behind TVs and the Apple TV is very different. Too different.

You make some great points here. Rather, how can they improve upon the Apple TV such that they force the TV market to conform to their model?

If we ignore all the speculation, the hard facts point directly to this: Apple is actively pursuing a commoditized consumption model for video.
post #5 of 39
I'm telling ya all.. Apple is heading Sony way. Apple can't compete with Samsung. (duck)
post #6 of 39
This is a bit of a surprise, but I love my 11" air and 27" display! Beautiful combination. Works the way is should, easy to plug in, recharge and I can keep my accessories plugged into the monitor.
post #7 of 39
You know, I just can't believe the figures.

Apple still sell the 27" Display Port LED LCD too, and I might suggest that this display probably sells at a rate about half as many again as the Thunderbolt display has.

Does that mean that Apple has more than a third of all 24" plus LED LCD screens?

I just don't believe it.

I am an Apple Advocate from way back, but these figures just cannot be right. Most of the people I see using large screens with their Macs don't use Apple screens, let alone such a large percentage of the whole market as this article would have us believe.

I might believe the figures if they were referring to the 27" panel used by these displays, which the iMac also usesas does the 27" Display port display.
And that the figures quoted were the aggregate of these sales of the panel too.

I mean, good on Apple if it were true. But it just aint!
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post #8 of 39
If the Thunderbolt display has 26 percent of the market, and Apple computer systems are the only computers on the market with Thunderbolt connectors, then Apple has a pretty good amount of sales in desktops and laptop sales. What is the percentage of Laptop owners that purchase an external display? The balance of those are for Mac Minis, and probably some are for iMacs, since the Mac Pro system don't have a Thunderbolt connector, yet.
post #9 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk View Post

I'm telling ya all.. Apple is heading Sony way. Apple can't compete with Samsung. (duck)

Samsung makes Android and WIndows products, so for a portion of the marketplace that have already chosen the OS platform, Samsung isn't a competitor. For the portion of the marketplace that is deciding between OS platform, they are a competitor, but that list also has ASUS, Sony, Toshiba, Dell, HP, Lenovo, and other WIndows clones and Android clones.

Now, Apple has mentioned many times, that 50% of their market is based on Mac users, so 50% have already chosen their OS platform as Apple. The balance are either new first time computer users, or switchers. Some of those people chose the Apple OS before they walked into the Apple Store (physical or on-line) and the balance chose Apple after they reviewed the competing OS/Hardware options.

A competitor, to me, is someone that is considered during the evaluation period when an individual or an institution before they make a purchasing decision.

However, when one chooses WIndows or Android, Samsung has LOTs of competitors just like everyone else that makes WIndows and Android products. The desktop and laptop market for Mac has been slowly and steadily increasing at around 35% per year, when in the last year or two, Windows has been slowing down or dropping in sales to the point where that market isn't growing or staying equal to previous sales.

In terms of the display, I don't think there are any other Thunderbolt third party options to choose from, and I think it is safe to say that most Apple users won't buy another brand display unless they are choosing to use another type of port on their laptop or desktop. MacPro users might opt for a less expensive monitor to save money, but that is only a percentage of the total number of displays being purchased for the MacPro users.

I don't know of anyone buying a non-Thunderbolt display for a desktop or laptop from Apple that has a Thunderbolt port. How big is that market.
post #10 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_whizz View Post

You know, I just can't believe the figures.

Apple still sell the 27" Display Port LED LCD too, and I might suggest that this display probably sells at a rate about half as many again as the Thunderbolt display has.

Does that mean that Apple has more than a third of all 24" plus LED LCD screens?

I just don't believe it.

I am an Apple Advocate from way back, but these figures just cannot be right. Most of the people I see using large screens with their Macs don't use Apple screens, let alone such a large percentage of the whole market as this article would have us believe.

I might believe the figures if they were referring to the 27" panel used by these displays, which the iMac also usesas does the 27" Display port display.
And that the figures quoted were the aggregate of these sales of the panel too.

I mean, good on Apple if it were true. But it just aint!

And let alone the 53.3% in 2010. Must be a huge misinterpretation. I really wonder how they got these numbers: Sounds absolutely unbelievable. As much as I like Apple's displays, they can't be more than little side kick IMHO.
post #11 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_whizz View Post

You know, I just can't believe the figures.

Apple still sell the 27" Display Port LED LCD too, and I might suggest that this display probably sells at a rate about half as many again as the Thunderbolt display has.

Does that mean that Apple has more than a third of all 24" plus LED LCD screens?

I just don't believe it.

I am an Apple Advocate from way back, but these figures just cannot be right. Most of the people I see using large screens with their Macs don't use Apple screens, let alone such a large percentage of the whole market as this article would have us believe.

I might believe the figures if they were referring to the 27" panel used by these displays, which the iMac also usesas does the 27" Display port display.
And that the figures quoted were the aggregate of these sales of the panel too.

I mean, good on Apple if it were true. But it just aint!

I think it may be more of a case where it's a small market for screens that large. I don't know anyone with a non-Apple 27" or 30" computer display. I happen to own a 30", though from six years ago, and it's still going strong. I know two people with 27" iMacs. Outside of that, no one I know with a computer screen larger than 24".
post #12 of 39
Love my MBP and Thunderbolt monitor. Beautiful.
post #13 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I think it may be more of a case where it's a small market for screens that large. I don't know if the. I don't know anyone with a non-Apple 27" or 30" computer display. I happen to own a 30", though from six years ago, and it's still going strong. I know two people with 27" iMacs. Outside of that, no one with a computer screen larger than 24".

I'll agree it's a small market. Also most OSes (XP) don't scale well in drivers and hardware for large screens. It's cheaper and more stable for them to just buy multiple smaller screens (those 6 screen trading stations).

Multiple Screens don't do well for visual editting/design, and Macs have always held a strong foothold on design/video/photo apps, so I think that's the niche driving large screen marketplace. Couple that with high speed graphics for video or game playback... native thunderbolt makes for a compelling option.

I'm on the edge on this... my workspace would look 'ugly' with a big screen, however, my one 24" monitor is a bit 'small' for my work (I do Big A architecture, and often have 8 or 9 PDFs open and work in 11x17" doc formats quite a bit). But I can't see having a larger screen (block the view to my back yard;-), and will likely go to a 2nd 24" screen. But a Thunderbolt monitor attached to my new mac mini is becoming a less a dream and more a necessity.
post #14 of 39
Seems very odd; Dell had always been fairly well regarded in that market, although the lack of a Thunderbolt option likely hurt them among the Mac crowd.
post #15 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff View Post

I'll agree it's a small market. Also most OSes (XP) don't scale well in drivers and hardware for large screens. It's cheaper and more stable for them to just buy multiple smaller screens (those 6 screen trading stations).

Multiple Screens don't do well for visual editting/design, and Macs have always held a strong foothold on design/video/photo apps, so I think that's the niche driving large screen marketplace. Couple that with high speed graphics for video or game playback... native thunderbolt makes for a compelling option.

I'm on the edge on this... my workspace would look 'ugly' with a big screen, however, my one 24" monitor is a bit 'small' for my work (I do Big A architecture, and often have 8 or 9 PDFs open and work in 11x17" doc formats quite a bit). But I can't see having a larger screen (block the view to my back yard;-), and will likely go to a 2nd 24" screen. But a Thunderbolt monitor attached to my new mac mini is becoming a less a dream and more a necessity.

As a CAD/CAM user, I get that. Multiple screens do well for multiple documents, but the bigger screen can help for detailed view while keeping tools on the screen. I plan to get a 27" iMac when it's updated. I might make a portrait stand for one of my 24" monitors.
post #16 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaarrrgggh View Post

Seems very odd; Dell had always been fairly well regarded in that market, although the lack of a Thunderbolt option likely hurt them among the Mac crowd.

Dell Ultra sharp studio monitors do not use LEDs so they not in this survey - this is only LED-Panels

LED monitor are consumer grade monitors unless they use RGB LEDs (not the white )
you would need to buy the HP Dream Color series like the HP LP2480zx that used a Tri-Color LED (2,400US)

I think the The dell 27/30 are the best flat panel studio design monitor under 2k on the market right now
post #17 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I happen to own a 30", though from six years ago, and it's still going strong.

That is one fantastic screen! I bought it the moment it got EOL-ed some 18 months ago. Still don't understand why they killed it; Dell is still selling it, same panel, same price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agramonte View Post

Dell Ultra sharp studio monitors do not use LEDs so they not in this survey - this is only LED-Panels

LED monitor are consumer grade monitors unless they use RGB LEDs (not the white )
you would need to buy the HP Dream Color series like the HP LP2480zx that used a Tri-Color LED (2,400US)

The dell 27/30 are the best studio design monitor under 2k on the market right now

Thats an informative post, thanks. That 30" is really the best out there. But if you have the space a CRT still outshines all these different flat panels. I've been told that Hollywood uses CRT's because of their quality - can anyone verify that?
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post #18 of 39
I believe that Apple is going to be using some new displays from Sharp. Sharp makes some really nice panels. It is going to be interesting if Sharp/Apple can come out with panels and displays for Apple products, they might be able to ween themselves off of Samsung, which reduces Samsung's revenue and profit. Oh well. Samsung relies on Apple for selling components mfg by Samsung (processors, SSD and DDR memory, displays), but Samsung isn't Apple's only supplier. Apple has other memory suppliers, and they can go to other mfg if they need to, which they are.
post #19 of 39
well 26% are buying a shit product with glare from untreated glass and non existent ergonomics. When (if) apple update it to a treated glass with good ergonomics model I 'll give credit where it's due.

btw, yes crt's still outclass flat panels in a lot of respects, dunno about hollywood.
post #20 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

That is one fantastic screen! I bought it the moment it got EOL-ed some 18 months ago. Still don't understand why they killed it; Dell is still selling it, same panel, same price.

Thats an informative post, thanks. That 30" is really the best out there. But if you have the space a CRT still outshines all these different flat panels. I've been told that Hollywood uses CRT's because of their quality - can anyone verify that?

Oh yeah, "best" if not including CRTs for sure.

I also still have my ACD 30 at my home studio - no idea why Apple killed them, they a joy to work on.
post #21 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

That is one fantastic screen! I bought it the moment it got EOL-ed some 18 months ago. Still don't understand why they killed it; Dell is still selling it, same panel, same price.

I like my 30" Cinema but the color is a little inconsistent from one side to the other which is typical with fluorescent back light.


Quote:
But if you have the space a CRT still outshines all these different flat panels. I've been told that Hollywood uses CRT's because of their quality - can anyone verify that?

I thought the Ezio monitors were considered the top of the line. Who still makes CRT displays?

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post #22 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I like my 30" Cinema but the color is a little inconsistent from one side to the other which is typical with fluorescent back light.

I thought the Ezio monitors were considered the top of the line. Who still makes CRT displays?


Could that be the artifact when speakers are standing too close to the screen? I've seen this happen to by B&O TV with one of my Elipson speakers standing next to it. The TV started to show color banding amongst other crap.

Eizo is indeed considered an extremely good brand. They still make the CRT's
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post #23 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by diddy View Post

Forget the idea of Apple doing a TV - it just makes more sense to do an Add-on box that they have more control over and is easier for consumers to invest in versus a massively large TV that they keep for 10 years until it breaks. The purchasing decisions behind TVs and the Apple TV is very different. Too different.

Apple will do an AIO iOS device with no wired inputs or outputs.

It will not be a "TV", even though it can be used that way. It will instead be a portal to Apple Land, accessed a la carte with a credit card.

It will not even hook up to traditional cable TV.
post #24 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

Could that be the artifact when speakers are standing too close to the screen?

No, the speakers are over 12" away. The woofer is on the floor, so I doubt that is affecting the monitor at all. The color shift is not really that noticeable except when there is a solid shade across the entire screen. So, I'm just being picky about a problem that is pretty insignificant. I never trust color on any monitor though. When designing I usually sample the color on screen by the numbers and then print it on a calibrated high end Epson inkjet. I usually tweak the color a bit on press if necessary.

For video work I have an Intensity Pro HDMI card in my Mac Pro and output to a top of the line Sony 1080 HD, which I'm told is not as good as some other brands, however, it looks pretty good to me.

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post #25 of 39
I think Apple will be out of the game when the newer double resolution TV and movie digital format takes hold. I've read about it but don't recall it's name. Also the new super low power OLED screens that are very thin are also appealing. Do you think manufacturers of such TVs will add Thunderbolt ports to those? Since they cost five times more than conventional LCD TVs they might.
post #26 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by diddy View Post

That same mentality doesnt work too well in the TV market - the demand for a range of products of different sizes is very much against what Apple does.

Forget the idea of Apple doing a TV - it just makes more sense to do an Add-on box that they have more control over and is easier for consumers to invest in versus a massively large TV that they keep for 10 years until it breaks. The purchasing decisions behind TVs and the Apple TV is very different. Too different.

I will take note of the time and date of your response and check back in a year so how this panned out.
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post #27 of 39
Does anyone sell a 27" display that's 2560x1440 like Apple's? All the ones I find are only 1920x1080. I like apple's resolution, not the price. I can't put something smaller next to my 27" iMac!
post #28 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriamjh View Post

Does anyone sell a 27" display that's 2560x1440 like Apple's? All the ones I find are only 1920x1080. I like apple's resolution, not the price. I can't put something smaller next to my 27" iMac!

dell do, and they use the same panels pretty much.
post #29 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

[...] Tuesday's report is the first major indication of how Apple's Thunderbolt Display performs against competitors in the market. [...]

Not bad, considering how new Thunderbolt is.

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post #30 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

As a CAD/CAM user, I get that. Multiple screens do well for multiple documents, but the bigger screen can help for detailed view while keeping tools on the screen. I plan to get a 27" iMac when it's updated. I might make a portrait stand for one of my 24" monitors.

I've been having the Dell VS. Apple display discussion with a friend recently because we're both in the market to upgrade our current monitors. So this post is right up our respective alleys.

I do Architecture as well...been using my Dell Laptop for work and a Mac for personal use. Most Architecture firms mainly use AutoCAD and Revit and, up until recently, neither were available for OSX platforms. Now, only AutoCAD is available...from what i've read, it's a pretty poor translation when you compare it to the Windows version.

I've been using my old Dell 2007FP 20" for years and love it! It's a testament to Dell that they still offer this monitor for sale. However, I've been toiling over buying the Apple TB Display over the equivalent Dell 27" as an upgrade for a couple reasons. And I've been holding off mainly to see where TB technology goes...because for me, buying a new monitor is like an investment. You keep them much longer than your computer and I want one that's going to last through the life-space a at least 2 or 3 computer upgrades.

On one hand the Apple TB Display is great for the MB, but not so much for the my dell Laptop. My only 2 video connections are VGA or HDMI. With the Apple TB Display, I haven't really found a way to connect both my MB and my Dell Latitude to the Apple TB display both at the same time...so Dell win's that argument. I even went to the Apple store and had the "geniuses" there trying to figure out if it's even possible. So far, the only solution is a KVM switch, which they weren't even sure that would work on Thunderbolt. I really love the idea of a docking station for my MB and the way the TB display is the all-in-one, but it only really works for Macs. TB technology is just too new right now to make a compelling solution for non-Mac users, or the rare cases like mine where I want a single monitor for both my Mac and PC at the same time.

EDIT: I answered my own quesiton here. Eizo makes monitors that do this, but $1400 is a little out of my price range, and many others i'd assume. I'm talking about the FORIS FX2431, pretty sweet little monitor. Only doesn't come in 27"

So at the moment, i'm shelving the idea of a new display...and going to just keep using my MB without a monitor, bought a port replicator for my Dell, since the Mac is just my personal computer and not for work.
post #31 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

Thats an informative post, thanks. That 30" is really the best out there. But if you have the space a CRT still outshines all these different flat panels. I've been told that Hollywood uses CRT's because of their quality - can anyone verify that?

I've heard the same thing as well, though i can't sight any link on it. I've also been told that one of the main reasons for it is because CRT's still reproduce color, brightness and contrast much more accurately than any flat-panel tech. out there...except for possibly Plasma.
post #32 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_whizz View Post

You know, I just can't believe the figures.

Apple still sell the 27" Display Port LED LCD too, and I might suggest that this display probably sells at a rate about half as many again as the Thunderbolt display has.

Does that mean that Apple has more than a third of all 24" plus LED LCD screens?

I just don't believe it.

I am an Apple Advocate from way back, but these figures just cannot be right. Most of the people I see using large screens with their Macs don't use Apple screens, let alone such a large percentage of the whole market as this article would have us believe.

I might believe the figures if they were referring to the 27" panel used by these displays, which the iMac also usesas does the 27" Display port display.
And that the figures quoted were the aggregate of these sales of the panel too.

I mean, good on Apple if it were true. But it just aint!

Ummm... 26% for Apple is about one-quarter - hardly a "large percentage of the whole market". That means 74% of the large screens are non-Apple - that would be "most" of the displays. You haven't said anything that contradicts the story.
post #33 of 39
Now imagine when Apple releases their new 27, 36 and 46 inch Cinema Displays with the same functions as the current but now also HDMI and audio outputs so you can use it with your computer or even as a display with your Blu-ray player or your Apple TV STB. With a beautiful retina display, 1080p FaceTime camera and revoluntary museum style anti reflective glass so you get all the rich color but none of that mirror effect.
And all the analysts figure out that this, not a 'real' TV is what all those parts etc were for

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post #34 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by elroth View Post

Ummm... 26% for Apple is about one-quarter - hardly a "large percentage of the whole market". That means 74% of the large screens are non-Apple - that would be "most" of the displays. You haven't said anything that contradicts the story.

You realize that "large screens" means "24 inches and up", right?

The 24" display market is huge. Supposedly, at least. And 24" displays can be had VERY cheaply.

And yet a quarter of all these sales are of Apple's SINGLE model of display, which costs $1,000, and only works with the newest Macs.

Pretending that's not significant is foolish.

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post #35 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by antkm1 View Post

I've heard the same thing as well, though i can't sight any link on it. I've also been told that one of the main reasons for it is because CRT's still reproduce color, brightness and contrast much more accurately than any flat-panel tech. out there...except for possibly Plasma.

It's been a while since I've heard anything like that, I don't know if that's still true anymore. One of the display tech companies basically said that the latest iPad's screen is just a tiny tweak away from being a good pro quality display for color rendition.

It's kind of a moot point, I don't think CRT broadcast monitors are still being made, I think JVC and Sony quit making them in 2009.
post #36 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

You realize that "large screens" means "24 inches and up", right?

The 24" display market is huge. Supposedly, at least. And 24" displays can be had VERY cheaply.

And yet a quarter of all these sales are of Apple's SINGLE model of display, which costs $1,000, and only works with the newest Macs.

Pretending that's not significant is foolish.

As has been stated, the article is talking about "LED LCD computer screens sized 24 inches and up"... not the entire 24"+ market. And according to the article, the survey does includes the legacy ACD, not just the new Thunderbolt Display. Just pointing that out for clarity. But no matter, because it's impressive that this category is still led by Apple, though the lead seems to be shrinking. Having more OEM's employing Thunderbolt would greatly help. Hopefully that's on the horizon.

Marvin and some other A/I members gave me some great advice last year, as I was trying to make a purchase decision. I had to do some remodeling of my home office workstation to accommodate the dual 27" setup (2x24 was the max that I had room for), but the iMac and the matching Thunderbolt display have proven to be worth every cent. I see now why people choose them as much as they do.

One thing that has crossed my mind though... other than the 27" displays, Apple has discontinued the other monitor sizes, correct? But since they still make a 21.5" iMac, that just seems rather odd to me. Why wouldn't Apple offer a matching monitor for those who prefer dual screen setups in that size as well?
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post #37 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I don't think CRT broadcast monitors are still being made, I think JVC and Sony quit making them in 2009.

Didn't find a Sony CRT, but see that JVC still makes a 17inch model:

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post #38 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior View Post

As has been stated, the article is talking about "LED LCD computer screens sized 24 inches and up" not the entire 24"+ market.

Do they even make CCFL displays anymore?

Quote:
And according to the article, the survey does includes the legacy ACD, not just the new Thunderbolt Display. Just pointing that out for clarity.

Ah, but thanks.

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post #39 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriamjh View Post

Does anyone sell a 27" display that's 2560x1440 like Apple's? All the ones I find are only 1920x1080. I like apple's resolution, not the price. I can't put something smaller next to my 27" iMac!

Dell, HP, NEC, a few others I forget off hand. I doubt you can find a 27" IPS display with less than 2560x1440 resolution.

Apple's Thunderbolt display is nice but like most of their hardware it's overpriced and has poor ergonomics. Thunderbolt is clever but it doesn't add to display quality. I'd much rather have seen Apple make a wide color gamut display while adding the necessary support for wide gamut color spaces to OS X. THAT would seriously improve the Mac user experience, and put Apple a few generations ahead of Windows.
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