Nokia warns of 'disappointing' smartphone sales in first half of 2012 - Page 2

Well, everybody can have an own opinion. It is just defying any logic.

Looking at the profitability Samsung achieved with Android (not that I wanted one) and Nokia's proven ability to do better hardware at reasonable cost, it is 100% obvious that Nokia could still be profitable, if they went that route (they would still pay MS for patents, sure, but certainly less than for the full OS that nobody wants).

Looking at even RIM having an 4 times higher customer retention rate than Nokia (in smartphones) with an OS 7 that is really just a four year old 5.x with some lipstick on hardware that has not improved in a decade, it is 100% clear that people actively avoid the Windows (or MS) brand. Heck, HTC had some models where the Android and the WP7 hardware were almost identical, telcos were selling the WP7 variants for significantly less, because nobody wanted them, and still people chose Android. Everybody knowing people (at large) knows how much they must hate something to voluntarily pay more.

To call the WP7 decision by Nokia a right step is a severe form of denial. Sure, MS has deep pockets and may over the next 5 years buy some market share (maybe at least the roughly 8% globally Windows Mobile once had, which proves that a certain potentially addressable market of masochists exists)... just, Nokia does not have that time.

Nokia/Microsoft are just coping Apple and using an absolutely horrendously bad UI to do it. "live tiles" are a horrible UI construct. Astro-turf much?

totally agree with all your points. Nokia is dead now that they are just a Windows Phone clone maker. Android would have at least gave them some customers. that Microsoft money is going to run dry at some point.

Defying logic is to say that because Nokia was still making a profit before Elop signed on as CEO that Nokia would have continued to make a profit if he had not, despite the rapid drop YoY in profit.

You can't rationally defend this because there is nothing to suggest that Nokia was going to remain profitable. They had no viable products in the pipeline and no avenue to get themselves out of the hole they dug log before Elop was on board. The iCeberg (see what I did there?) had done its damage in 2007 and it was just a matter of time before the Nokianic sank below the water line.

This is why a new CEO was brought on but the change was going to happen over a very long period, not overnight. You can blame Elop all you want for Nokia's woes, and some of them might be true, but to say that Elop is responsible for Nokia not being profitable is bullshit, he was just the newly appointed captain when it happened.

I definitely get your argument and am trying to give it a fair shake. I agree that a lack of competition reduces innovation and progress, but I have nothing to compare it to...What would Apple be producing if there was another company "X" who was quite similar? It's not that I flat out disagree, but I can't myself conceive of how they could innovate faster, and I wonder whether our expectations about progress are abnormally high.

My "opinion" (which could be demonstrably wrong) is that Apple has hit a sweet spot in the market, and I'll compare it to my efficiency in a game. When I'm in a "game" state, I'm playing to win, but not playing to survive precisely because the competition (things that make me die) are not enough of a threat, but there is enough pressure to keep me playing without straining the creative process or arbitrarily creating new models that look different but offer nothing new. Apple seems to be in this sweet spot. They've got the resources to innovate just as fast as is possible, but minus the desperation that would cause them to continuously sell as many silly things as possible in a desperate attempt to secure the market.

I realize I'm not giving anything concrete to back this up. It just seems to me that Apple is actually in a very rare niche in terms of efficiency/innovation/resources and market pressure. It seems to be just right...for them to produce the iPad, the new antenna, the high resolution display, etc. I don't think any other companies could have done this.

I'd enjoy hearing more concrete evidence for or against from people who understand this better than I do, but it does continue to be my belief that Apple IS innovating, and that our perception of how fast that should be is the product of over-expectation.

That brings back terrible memories. My company (I think that was in 2004?) gave me a P910i, the predecessor. I fully agree, that was definitely the most shameful device I have ever operated. A touchscreen (with stylus) registering nothing, that stupid fold-out keyboard that required a third hand to still hold the device while typing, and the most confusing software ever... Did the P990i also always loose the battery cover?

But, to be correct here, the GUI of these devices was NOT Symbian, it was UIQ. The Symbian part of these devices (the invisible part of the OS, handling cell communications, energy management, etc.) was flawless. Never dropped a call, battery life was outstanding despite the, for that age, huge display... Symbian died because of clowns messing up the GUI again and again (and Nokia letting it happen), but until very late in the game, the GUI was not part of Symbian.

What's the update on the Lumia 900 so far?

I've only heard of the $100 offer because of the glitch but haven't heard of any sell outs or lines......

You write this as 'tho that's a fact when, actually it's just your opinion, right?

Of course it's my opinion. How else can you use an unqualified superlative? If I wrote, "...is the 2nd best, according to an Engadget poll," then it would be a fact of the results of the opinions of the poll.

I have to admit, the 800 in white does look classy (no idea if it's the second-most beautiful, but it is far behind the 4(S) for sure). The black model just looks cheap and the cyan is a few years too late. With the 900 they screwed up their own design. The non-flush screen ruins the geometry and the fake-colored panel completes the cheap impression. It is quite obvious that they have rushed that out the door, Nokia's engineers can definitely do better.

As previously stated, my biggest issue with the 900 is the use of the same resolution display as the 3.7" models. I understand why they did it, but it poor form in 2012 nonetheless.

The Lumia is pretty but lacks substance. It does nothing better than iOS or Android. It's basically WebOS with live tiles and no card tricks.


Paradigm shift?? That guy must be smoking.

The Verge's review was spot on:

http://www.theverge.com/2012/4/3/292...mia-900-review

I don't know if you can say that. The Nokia N9 is a really incredible phone, I own a white one with 64GB of ram and it puts the Lumia to shame, heck it put's almost every Android phone to shame, I won't say iOS because you'll rip me a new one.

Nokia is still my favorite mobile company every. I've owned every Nokia Communicator ever made, mostly because pre iPhone or Android their weren't many decent smart phones. Plus I am a real big fan of clamshell phones, I don't care how good a touchscreen gets it can never replace a clamshell with a good keyboard. It will be real horrible loss to loose Nokia if they go under. I really don't want to see the world turn into a two OS place. As much as you guys like iOS or Android there is still room on the planet for a few more good mobile systems.

I will buy the Nokia 808 Proview when it's released next month as I'm still a fan of Belle and I am very enthusiastic about replacing my Canon point and shoot with one that can share my photos automatically and has a friggen 41MP lens . Though I would totaly forget the whole idea if Canon would throw a sim card into a 5D .

Loosing Nokia here in Europe would be like you guys loosing Hershey chocolate in America.


Long live Nokia ........

[/quote]

Nokia was on a downward spiral when Elop took over but he's accelerated the decline rather than halted it. Nokia had a viable plan in MeeGo. The reviews for the N9 were far better than those the Lumia 800 or 900. Was there a viable ecosystem behind MeeGo? The signs were there its ecosystem was no worse than Windows Phone's.

Under Elop, Nokia is no longer in control of its own destiny. Thousands have been made redundant and they're doing worse than they were doing before. It's shameful.

I'd rather sink on my own ship than someone else's.

Well I wouldn't say that, it does a few things better, Facebook and Facebook messaging integration for one is unbelievable. Has the best mobile Office suit for a mobile I've seen and with Skydrive it's killer. It's also the easiest and fastest mobile OS I've seen so far. It's a really good OS but yes it's defiantly missing a few features and some good apps. Hopefully that will improve over time, hopefully.

Yea I still can't get over what he did, at least give Meegos a fighting chance. No, no, let's kill everything and sign a exclusivity deal with Microsoft. Yet their still making Symbian phones so why not Meegos.

Their like Adobe who said Flash for mobile is dead but are still releasing updates. I swear there is a new update for Flash on my Galaxy Note like once a month it's ridiculous, last update was on March 28TH 11.1 to 11.2. Oh and you should read the release notes, this wasn't just a bug or security fix either, they added a laundry list of improvements. No really it's dead, seriously we mean it, then stop updating it! Sorry for that just venting.

Sinking ship.


At this point it makes little difference.

Well for starters you might want to use the same method most of us use .... when we're not afraid to take a stand, rather than trying to straddle the line until we see which way the wind blows. ( imo ...imho ... just my 2 cents worth ) ... see how easy that is ?

It's not over yet until they're dead and buried and I for one refuse to loose hope. With Microsoft, Nokia and now AT&T dropping a bucket load of money into promoting the Nokia 900 it has a chance. Yes, there was a small hiccup with this bug but they have stated it will be rectified by next week and are even giving a cash credit to though's who already owns one. That's a class act if I ever seen one. Yes I'm a fan of Nokia and I want them to prosper. I fear that in the next two years the only two mobile OS's that will survive is iOS and Android. A world like that will suck big time. Hopefully Mozilla's B2G and Samsung's new Titzen/Bada OS will have a chance. As much as I like iOS and Android they are far from being the perfect OS, there is plenty of room in the market for more competition.

It's sucks too because the closets thing that has even come close towards my version of a perfect OS is Meegos, guys it's good, no BS, no fangirl talk, it's real good. However Nokia killed the project for Microsoft's unfinished OS. It has a lot of potential but it's not ready yet, I hope version 8 will be the savior everyone is looking for.

Whatever happens I foresee Microsoft buying Nokia for pennies on the dollar in the and that makes me sad, very sad.

So what you are suggesting is fact and not your opinion because you didn't include IMO or IMHO? Or can we assume from the use of the modal verb might and the context of your comment that you are stating an opinion that can't easily be confused as an unwavering declaration of fact.

THAT'S where I saw that before!!!!


Repeat after me:

iPhone: Alpha

Lumia: Beta

Nokia should have taken all the money they spent on this and bought Apple stock, they'd be money ahead. Oddly enough, when Apple comes out with the next generation iPhone, Nokia could have made money then instead of having Apple crap all over what little inertia they might have by then.

The problem with Nokia is defection. People who used Nokia now leave because they don't want a Windows Phone. They either go Android or Apple now. That's why OS share of Windows Phone stays low, even now Nokia sells them. Nokia should have been faster in developing Meego. Same goes for RIM. And also the sunken Palm. All have developed their new OS too late and too slow. Still, if we go back into history, Apple was also slow. From 1997 to 2001 Apple had no real alternative to Windows 95/98 etc. But once Mac OS X was in place, it paved the way for Apple's future for the next 20 years.

MeeGo, of course.

If not sank, then significantly accelerated the sinking, by pulling an "Osborne" on Symbian:

http://www.mondaynote.com/2011/06/05...microsoft-way/

interesting phone, so I looked it up, and found a telling tale that Nokia seems to have lost focus on designing something people will be able to make good use of:

"So, if you really want a smartphone that can shoot photos at a resolution of as much as 7,728 x 5,368 pixels (to display on the PureView's surprisingly low resolution 640 x 360 pixel 4-inch screen), you'll either have to wait for Nokia to drum up a U.S. PureView device of some sort or import a handset."

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar...o-u-s-20120306

I have a Nokia E7 that I bought early last year because I own every Communicator Nokia has ever made. Although the resolution is the same as the Pro View, it seems low but it's surprising very useable. With Nokias new Belle OS it also makes for a very decent phone experience. I will use the phone as a smart camera though nothing more.

I think the Lumia 900 has a much better user experience and build quality than anything in the android world now or ever before.

If Apple was not an option, I would get the Lumia long before any android phone.

I would almost agree with you, have you seen the HTC One X, oh my gosh that is a beautiful device, probably the best phone ever made to date. I'm going to get burned for that remark, please don't respond till you've had one in your hands as any remark would be speculation otherwise.

It's still just a lateral move from android to android. All the same issues in a new casing.

I was with android for 3 years before the iPhone. I came to the conclusion that android sucks and I see nothing introduced in the last 8 weeks that would make me change my mind in the slightest.

I'm in the same boat as you are. Started off Android and then switched to iPhone, no regrets whatsoever.

I can't help but feel a tinge of sadness for Nokia when I heard the announcement on the radio - then there's a bit of guilt now when I see their ads on TV. Good looking phone, wouldn't mind testing out the OS.

I started with Nokia then went to Apple, then went to Samsung, then went to Nokia and Samsung, decided in the end to just own one of each. I love all things mobile, no OS is better then the other, each have their strengths and weaknesses. What's great about Android and iOS though is that I have exactly the same apps on both platforms so It's easy to swap.

That's only because Nokia's definition of a smartphone is very liberal in comparison to just about everyone else. A lot of what they consider smartphones are really just knockoffs of 5 year old Blackberry's. That qualified as a smartphone in those days when iPhones had not shipped yet and smartphone meant it could do email.

The whole meaning of smartphone is very different today and Nokia's definition never changed. So they are just propping up their numbers of sold smartphones with what everyone else considers low margin feature phones.

 

 

Nokia doesn't count their features phones as smartphones.  So you can please detail what is missing from the Nokia smartphones that mean they shouldn't be classified as smartphones, and also detail which phones you believe are being incorrectly classified?

 

 

To my knowledge, Nokia has only ever considered Symbian, Meego and Windows Phone phones as smartphones (and they are all smartphone OSes).  Nokia's Series 30 and 40 phones are all feature phones, and are counted as such. 

 

 

 

I agree with you.  The profit trend was already downwards before Elop took over, so it was only a matter of time anyway before Nokia started to lose money, regardless of whether Elop was in charge or not.  The problem was, Nokia were on this slippery slope downwards with a portfolio of Symbian and Meego (and Maemo) products.  This means that Symbian, Maemo and Meego were not what customers wanted.  This meant that Nokia were left with only two options; Android or Windows Phone.  And we all know the reasons why they picked Windows Phone over Android, so there's no point in repeating them.  Either way, I think Nokia still have some falling left to do before they (hopefully) bounce back.     

 

 

 

 

I'm actually going to agree with you on this. 

 

The HTC One X is utterly stunning. It looks and feels incredible. The screen is the first that actually looks better than the iPhone Retina display. It makes a big screen look really good. In terms of build quality it has some slight quirks. It's such a good looking phone that putting a cover on it should be a crime.

 

The downside is it runs android, with the same android issues. 

Edited by Technarchy - 4/24/12 at 2:35am

The new Android 4.04 is a huge improvement over older versions. It's defiantly has become my favorite OS. I really think iOS is starting to age very quickly, the UI has been the same for the last 5 years. There really isn't any assentive for me to use iOS especially th now that every decent app that I use have been ported over to Android. There are also just so many more advanced features to be found on Android. I can't tell you how usefull it is to have all of my work servers and home NAS drives mounted as a folder on my desktop. Being able to run all of my Python front end apps is also a god send.

iOS is still a great consumer OS but for the power user it's all about Android.

Please. No one buys it.

iOS does not need these massive overhauls every year because it doesn't suck and Steve was right when he said it was 5 years ahead if not more.

Android has these massive OS overhauls because they are crooks and need to get around patent litigation in addition to the software being so bad that it needs to be gutted often to improve the abysmal user experience and performance issues.

Android is bad software that can't be fixed with better hardware.

 

 

That's nice and you are defiantly allowed your opinion. These crook comments like Google stole this and that is nothing more then silly words though. I really could care less if Google sent over an armed person to Apple demanding to see their code. The truth of the matter is everyone copy's or is inspired by someone else's work. Apple is not above approach on this  they copy things from other platforms all the time. Again I really could care less who thought of it first as long as the outcome benefits me as the user.

 

iOS is getting long in the tooth and is very boring to use, great it works but it's definitely time for a new look. Okay so you don't like Android fine but I really do, well now that it's use able with this new 4.04 version. Everything is smooth, fast, customizable, plus I have many features that simple aren't available on iOS like a file manager that is capable of mounting my work server over VPN as a normal folder. I can also modify the OS code when I need it to do something that wasn't planned, I have Perl and Python scripts that are in crontab's. I now have a multi-session phone where I can login as one user and be in my work environment and the another for home. I'm a programmer and a power user, I like being able to run a MySQL server, Python apps, Java apps and any native Linux/Unix apps on my phone, Android fits the role perfectly for someone like me. It's not for everyone but it's defiantly for me, I have been waiting a long time to have a viable Linux computer in my pocket and now I have a good one.

 

Yes what I do on my phone is defiantly out of the normal spectrum but the fact that I can do these things is simply amazing to me. I am to the point now where I can just plug my Samsung Note into it's cradle that's connected to a 21" display with bluetooth keyboard and mouse and have a complete desktop experience with development tools, running Eclipse and Netbeans. Something that I have been dreaming for years.

 

When comparing a iPhone to Android the iPhone wins hands down in everyday consumer usability but when it comes to using the OS's for something more Android wipes the floor with iOS even when it's been Jail-Broken. Android is something special and I wish you could see what I do, oh well continue with your rants and have a wonderful day.

 

And that's the difference between Android users and iOS users. We're fine with something that actually works, and works well. We'll keep our cars well-maintained for fifteen years or more. They're the ones that buy a brand new car every six months because they can't stand even looking at their old car for that long.

Case in point, me. I drive a seventeen year old van that is, as of only a few months ago, on its last legs. Nice little thing. Until this most recent problem with the engine, I got a better MPG rating on it than it was supposed to get when it was brand new. I treat my stuff with respect and it responds in kind.

 

And that's fine. Phones are certainly powerful enough now to provide the same experience you would get from an Apple ][ in 1977. But they're not desktop replacements, nor are they designed or meant to be.

 

 

 

I just wonder why you bother being here if it's so much better. "I use what's best for me in every situation, so I use some Apple products." That's fine, whatever. Do you REALLY have to keep hitting us with your squeaky inflatable Android mallet in every single thread for NO reason other than to tout Android's "superiority"?