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Greepeace stages protest on roof of Apple's European HQ in Ireland - Page 3

post #81 of 123
4/18/12 at 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

No, fuel cells do not store energy. Instead, they convert energy from one type of fuel to another, i.e. from gasses into into electricity.

Any storage device converts energy from one form to another!

Going back to the topic at hand, please take time to read the PDF I posted. Have a look at it!
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post #82 of 123
4/18/12 at 10:25am
What a hypocritical definition of priorities. Fund-raising season kickoff.
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post #83 of 123
4/18/12 at 10:37am
I wonder how much Greenpeace is going to have to pay to get their people out of jail for trespassing on and defacing Apple's property.

Maybe enough to pay for that gas guzzler Landrover they drove to the location.
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post #84 of 123
4/18/12 at 10:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFreeman View Post

Any storage device converts energy from one form to another!

Going back to the topic at hand, please take time to read the PDF I posted. Have a look at it!

I did. It supplies no support for your contention that Apple's fuel cells will be used to store solar power.

And besides, the gas tank in your car stores gasoline, but it dies not convert energy from one source to another. No fuel tank does that. Every major city has large fuel storage depots. None of them convert energy from one form to another.
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post #85 of 123
4/18/12 at 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakko View Post

I think invoking the word "fanbois" should automatically discredit one's arguments.

Yup, when an adult has to resort to name calling, it becomes obvious lessons were not learned in kindergarten and one can only question what lessons were missed between then and now.
Praise be the power of the Ignore List. Sure cuts wasted reading time.
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post #86 of 123
4/18/12 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Greenleace use Network Solutions as their hosting service, just curious of NetSol is greener than Apple?

The sad fact is that MOST environmental groups of note, have been co-opted and taken over by some of the big polluters -- things like the Sierra Club and such.

I'm not sure if this is Green Peace or greenleace as I've seen about 3 different spellings on this story and one of them HAS to be a typo.

And those organic health foods we buy are most often owned by the companies that make junk food now.


>> So it's not farfetched to think that some "green" charity organization, can end up being just as corporate manipulated as the Tea Party gaggle.
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post #87 of 123
4/18/12 at 11:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregInPrague View Post

We all know you don't actually do research because it would always prove you to be the liar.

http://www.bloomenergy.com/fuel-cell/energy-server/

Check out point 3...

A good read.

There's Best, Better and Good as apposed to Bad, Worse and Worst. The first three are better than the last ones. Just a little lesson the Mouth of Scorn didn't pick up in elementary school. So many holes.
Know History; Not just your Folklore
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post #88 of 123
4/18/12 at 11:50am
I don't think there is any doubt now that Greenpeace singled out Apple because of Apple recent success and growth and position as an industry leader. To have these protests organized and ready to go makes this all seem very planned and orchestrated.

To act like Apple is ignoring environmental issues is pretty weak - their plans for the North Carolina and Oregon data centers show they are taken environmental concerns into their plans.

If you looked at the massive amount of data hosting facilities being used by other companies they dwarf what Apple uses. Why is Greenpeace not going after them? No publicity.
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post #89 of 123
4/18/12 at 11:56am
I've supported Greenpeace financially since many years.
Now, it comes to an end... they completely lost their priorities.
And from all the IT-companies, Apple was always the greenest...
Very sad evolution that makes me mad!
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post #90 of 123
4/18/12 at 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

I did. It supplies no support for your contention that Apple's fuel cells will be used to store solar power.

And besides, the gas tank in your car stores gasoline, but it dies not convert energy from one source to another. No fuel tank does that. Every major city has large fuel storage depots. None of them convert energy from one form to another.

Again, I urge caution in the way we are communicating. I agree that Apple has said nothing about using the fuel cells to run from H2 where said H2 would be generated by electrolysis using electricity generated by solar power plants. However, it's possible to do so. There are many problems that would need to be solved to make such a system work, not the least of which is the practical storage of H2. Nevertheless, it is possible. Is it more practical than standard battery storage? Perhaps, given a real state-of-the art facility.

Nevertheless, we are talking about fuel cells and fuel cell systems that haven't been built yet. In addition, the neat thing about fuel cells is that they can be converted to such a system eventually. Given time, Apple could feasibly increase the size of its solar power plant sufficiently to power the whole facility with either direct solar or stored solar. THAT'S what we need to understand!

Another point:

In Califonia, solar is becoming more and more widespread. The reason is quite simple: A law was passed a while back that forced the utility companies to permit the electric meters to run backwards. In effect, most residential solar electric systems store electricity "in the grid". This is an immnently sensible way to go. However. To purists, it is a cheat, since most of those houses also use power plant-produced electricity. Too bad for them. Solar is growing far more rapidly because of this cheat.

In effect, Apple, to the degree that it uses the same system, is also now being accused of cheating. And yet, I don't see Green Peace climbing onto the roofs of houses in California protesting!

It's beyond ironic that a company (Apple) that is doing far more than most towards moving us to a cleaner, more efficient world, is being harpooned for not already having succeeded! It reminds me of the way Republicans attack President Obama for not having cleaned up their mess quickly enough, and all the while they stand on the mop!
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post #91 of 123
4/18/12 at 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacto Joe View Post

Again, I urge caution in the way we are communicating. I agree that Apple has said nothing about using the fuel cells to run from H2 where said H2 would be generated by electrolysis using electricity generated by solar power plants. However, it's possible to do so. There are many problems that would need to be solved to make such a system work, not the least of which is the practical storage of H2. Nevertheless, it is possible. Is it more practical than standard battery storage? Perhaps, given a real state-of-the art facility.

Nevertheless, we are talking about fuel cells and fuel cell systems that haven't been built yet. In addition, the neat thing about fuel cells is that they can be converted to such a system eventually. Given time, Apple could feasibly increase the size of its solar power plant sufficiently to power the whole facility with either direct solar or stored solar. THAT'S what we need to understand!

Another point:

In Califonia, solar is becoming more and more widespread. The reason is quite simple: A law was passed a while back that forced the utility companies to permit the electric meters to run backwards. In effect, most residential solar electric systems store electricity "in the grid". This is an immnently sensible way to go. However. To purists, it is a cheat, since most of those houses also use power plant-produced electricity. Too bad for them. Solar is growing far more rapidly because of this cheat.

In effect, Apple, to the degree that it uses the same system, is also now being accused of cheating. And yet, I don't see Green Peace climbing onto the roofs of houses in California protesting!

It's beyond ironic that a company (Apple) that is doing far more than most towards moving us to a cleaner, more efficient world, is being harpooned for not already having succeeded! It reminds me of the way Republicans attack President Obama for not having cleaned up their mess quickly enough, and all the while they stand on the mop!

I apologize for having inferred that Green Peace has been "standing on the mop." I took that comparison a little too far.
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post #92 of 123
4/18/12 at 12:23pm
Greenpeace are eco-fascist backwards thinking fools! Don't let them destroy the energy sector with their government funded faux-science on "man made" (man-bear-pig) climate change nonsense!

We'd be back in the dark ages if it were up to those Socialists!
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post #93 of 123
4/18/12 at 12:30pm
[QUOTE=AppleInsider;2097913]Protesters with the environmental organization Greenpeace staged an hourlong demonstration atop Apple's European headquarters in Ireland on Wednesday, opposing the use of coal-powered electricity to power the iCloud service.

The demonstrators scaled the top of the Apple building in Cork about 7 a.m. local time and voluntarily came down after about an hour,

Voluntairly came done after an hour? And this makes it all right? They ought to be arrested for criminal tresspass, defacing a building and harassment. Since they've specifically targeted Apple, sounds like a hate crime to me.
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post #94 of 123
4/18/12 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacto Joe View Post

The ends justify the means? Kill the population in order to save it? That's a slippery slope you're on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

So it's OK for them to lie?

Apple is far ahead of the competition in most cases. Greenpeace fabricated numbers in order to attack Apple.

Wouldn't they be more honest (and probably more effective) if they based their complaints on facts and went after the REAL polluters?

You both misread my post. Greenpeace needs publicity stunts (any message does), but I said they need to be ones based on real facts. Theyve failed in that, repeatedly, hurting their own cause. And that hurts all of us.

nagromme
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post #95 of 123
4/18/12 at 12:53pm
To me it's kind of funny and sad how everyone uses Apple to get attention, push their agenda, get website page clicks, or make a name for themselves. Examples: Greenpeace with this look at us stunt, that NPR guy, Consumer Reports, congress, websites that say somrthing like "Apple being investigated for.." (and so is Amazon and Google but we won't mention them).
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post #96 of 123
4/18/12 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacto Joe View Post


In Califonia, solar is becoming more and more widespread. The reason is quite simple: A law was passed a while back that forced the utility companies to permit the electric meters to run backwards. In effect, most residential solar electric systems store electricity "in the grid". This is an immnently sensible way to go. However. To purists, it is a cheat, since most of those houses also use power plant-produced electricity. Too bad for them. Solar is growing far more rapidly because of this cheat.


The other reason I believe it becoming more popular in CA is due the fact that there are now companies leasing the equipment to people, They put the equipment on your roof and change to x pennies per kilowatt hour like the utilities companies, but the cost is less than PG&E and they sell back what ever you do not use.

To the consumer there is no upfront cost to recover and they pay less for electricity and they get to feel good about doing something for the environment.

The reason most people will not install panels are the cost and maintenance and eventual replacement in 10 to 15 yrs when the fail and wear out. The whole lease idea which I heard on the radio when I was out there last makes it more attractive to most people who could not afford it otherwise.
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post #97 of 123
4/18/12 at 1:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I assume their ship is made of recycled panty hose and runs on solar and wind?

Who watches the watchers?

One of GreenPeace's boats is at the bottom of the ocean pouring diesel into the water. Clean up your own act before going after others.

Also, one of their signs is upside down. Can't trust someone who can't even make a statement properly.
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post #98 of 123
4/18/12 at 1:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

Apple's fuel cells should not be called renewable energy, given your claim:




Listen - any gas fueled power plant could run on biogas. But nobody would call the output of gas turbine plants "renewable energy".

And Apple should not call the output of its natural gas generators "renewable energy".

Actually natural gas IS renewable energy. It's the end result of the decomposition of biological material into oil which releases the gas with the earth trapping it in pockets.

All living things die therefore will inevitably become oil. The idea of renewable energy pretty much applies to everything. The difference is that oil isn't being renewed as quickly as other fuel sources but it does get renewed.
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post #99 of 123
4/18/12 at 1:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horrunmio View Post

Greenpeace are eco-fascist backwards thinking fools! Don't let them destroy the energy sector with their government funded faux-science on "man made" (man-bear-pig) climate change nonsense!

We'd be back in the dark ages if it were up to those Socialists!

If socialists had anything to do with our energy policy, the enormous profits generated would flow to the workers instead of the financial types. And we would base our energy production on what is best for all, instead of what is best for the owners of the means of production.

Likely socialists would seek less pollution and lower prices, with benefits flowing to a wider number of people.

Among other things.


And BTW, do you know the difference between fascists and socialists? You seem to call Greenpeace both of those things. The first is business in control of government, while the second is government in control of business. They seem mutually exclusive to me.
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post #100 of 123
4/18/12 at 1:37pm
[QUOTE=80025;2098229]
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Since they've specifically targeted Apple, sounds like a hate crime to me.

Only if Apple is an invidious minority.
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post #101 of 123
4/18/12 at 1:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by icoco3 View Post

Greenpeace who????

Wonder how efficient their operation is...anyone care to investigate?

Green peace has dwindled down to 3 guys in iceland with sharpies and poster board. I see why they need some press.
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post #102 of 123
4/18/12 at 1:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowededwookie View Post

Actually natural gas IS renewable energy. It's the end result of the decomposition of biological material into oil which releases the gas with the earth trapping it in pockets.

All living things die therefore will inevitably become oil. The idea of renewable energy pretty much applies to everything. The difference is that oil isn't being renewed as quickly as other fuel sources but it does get renewed.



Ah, So "renewable energy" sources include coal plants. And gasoline is renewable energy too. That makes it all so much more clear.

You should work for Apple's PR department. They can use clear-thinking people like you. You could issue a press release saying that Apple uses ONLY renewable energy. That would be good.

Next, you could tell us that the iPad is available in one color: Black and white. Because they are really the same.

/s
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post #103 of 123
4/18/12 at 1:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightlie View Post

Are we supposed to take them seriously when they target a single company out of the entire IT industry?

...with an exclusive contract with the the coal fired power industry???

Hey idiots at Greenpeace, if all the coal fired power stations were immediately shut down, the world would collapse as power shut off to most of it.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #104 of 123
4/18/12 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Hey idiots at Greenpeace, if all the coal fired power stations were immediately shut down, the world would collapse as power shut off to most of it.


Does Greenpeace advocate that we immediately shut down all coal fired power stations?

If not, they why did you bring it up?
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post #105 of 123
4/18/12 at 2:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

Apple's fuel cells should not be called renewable energy, given your claim:




Listen - any gas fueled power plant could run on biogas. But nobody would call the output of gas turbine plants "renewable energy".

And Apple should not call the output of its natural gas generators "renewable energy".

Aren't the Greenpeace hippies whining about coal?

Natural gas is not coal.

Besides coal and natural gas are renewable on the geological time scale, it's just a small matter of degree.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #106 of 123
4/18/12 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Besides coal and natural gas are renewable on the geological time scale, it's just a small matter of degree.

Yes. A definition of "renewable energy" which includes coal and petroleum is the best way to go about defining the term. It makes the meaning very clear.

And it lets Apple claim that it uses ONLY renewable energy.

/s
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post #107 of 123
4/18/12 at 2:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

Does Greenpeace advocate that we immediately shut down all coal fired power stations?

If not, they why did you bring it up?

Apple's <20 MW usage at North Carolina is a drop in a bucket.

The actual average generated power from coal in the USA in 2006 was 227.1 GW.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #108 of 123
4/18/12 at 2:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

Yes. A definition of "renewable energy" which includes coal and petroleum is the best way to go about defining the term. It makes the meaning very clear.

And it lets Apple claim that it uses ONLY renewable energy.

/s


We should start by burying rain forests, wait a few thousand years and you'll have coal.

Renewable energy.

I reject the Greenpeace definition.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #109 of 123
4/18/12 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by walshbj View Post

Interesting that Apple has a European HQ in Ireland but no Apple Store.

It's a tax thing.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #110 of 123
4/18/12 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

We should start by burying rain forests, wait a few thousand years and you'll have coal.

Renewable energy.

I reject the Greenpeace definition.

try 100 of millions of years and large shift in the plates driving oil and coal producing material 100's to 1000's of feet below the surface. Yep the human race will be long gone by the time it renews itself.
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post #111 of 123
4/18/12 at 2:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


Renewable energy.

I reject the Greenpeace definition.

Words and phrases have meanings. You can reject anything you want, but it will not affect reality.
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post #112 of 123
4/18/12 at 2:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightlie View Post

Are we supposed to take them seriously when they target a single company out of the entire IT industry?

i haven't taken them seriously in a decade. apple gets them in the news. losers.
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post #113 of 123
4/18/12 at 3:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

Words and phrases have meanings. You can reject anything you want, but it will not affect reality.

Geological time scale has meaning, oil, natural gas and coal are renewable in relation to it, according to some the geological time scale is less than 5,000 years if you accept the definition of the bible belt crowd...

...but they're more fucked up than Greenpeace.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #114 of 123
4/18/12 at 3:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

apple gets them in the news. losers.

Apple is a loser only in cellphone market share. Otherwise, I don't think the word applies.
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post #115 of 123
4/18/12 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Geological time scale has meaning, oil, natural gas and coal are renewable in relation to it, according to some the geological time scale is less than 5,000 years if you accept the definition of the bible belt crowd...

...but they're more fucked up than Greenpeace.


Black and white look exactly the same in the absence of illumination. I guess that is similar to your point?
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post #116 of 123
4/18/12 at 3:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

try 100 of millions of years and large shift in the plates driving oil and coal producing material 100's to 1000's of feet below the surface. Yep the human race will be long gone by the time it renews itself.

The Bible says it isn't so and many people give credence to an Earth that is less than 5,000 years old, that teamed with the "eternal life" myth puts paid to your statement.

(This statement is presented in the interests of equal time for crackpots just as credible as Greenpeace.)

Besides we can rely on peat as we wait for the coal, time to start bulldozing swamps.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #117 of 123
4/18/12 at 3:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

Black and white look exactly the same in the absence of illumination. I guess that is similar to your point?

To Greenpeace's point, actually.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #118 of 123
4/18/12 at 6:54pm
What we have in this thread is some posters failing basic internet skills:

1) The Ignore Trolls Skillz Failure - anyone lambasting Apple for using the word "renewable" in the context of fuel cells while ignoring GP's 100MW vs 20MW overestimation is an obvious troll. Fail.

2) The Google-Fu Skillz Failure - anyone who actually tried to Google "Apple Fuel Cell" would find that Apple has stated it will be 100% biogas. This is widely reported and can be taken directly from the horses mouth from their 2012 facility ENVIRONMENTAL UPDATE (note the clue in the title that it might have some bearing on the topic).

"Apple is building a fuel cell installation that, when online later in 2012, will be the
largest non-utility fuel cell installation operating anywhere in the country. This
5-megawatt facility, located directly adjacent to the data center, will be powered
by 100 percent biogas, and provide more than 40 million kWh of 24x7 baseload
renewable energy annually."

http://www.apple.com/environment/rep...eport_2012.pdf

Not shutting up the troll about Apple "lying" with such an easy fact that also shows he's an idiot at the same time is a double fail.

3) The Don't Make Stupid Statements Because Trolls Piss You Off Skillz Failure - Using geologic timescale in the context of renewable energy is like worth 10,000 lolz to the troll because he made you say something completely stupid. This is an epic failure that tragically overshadows the troll's own innate lameness.

WTF? Who thinks this is ever a good idea? This is not fighting fire with fire. You cannot fight dumb with dumber.

4) The Don't Ignore Annoying Threads and Get An Infraction Point Failure - This is my fail for this thread but seriously people...can AI threads get any dumber? You guys have made my ignore list nearly worthless.
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post #119 of 123
4/18/12 at 7:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

The actual average generated power from coal in the USA in 2006 was 227.1 GW.

That would let you time travel around 187 times.
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post #120 of 123
4/18/12 at 10:23pm
Whoops! Someone just fell off the side of the building! I'm sorry, what protest are we talking about?
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