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Foxconn workers protest wages, threaten to jump off factory roof [u] - Page 2

post #41 of 90

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanSolecki View Post

Yeah, you must be right. People regularly threaten suicide when they have other means for expressing their discontent. First thing I always go for. Couldn't possibly be some grounds for concern, because inflation is up (which, as we all know, is a function of foxconn wages, and no other factor) and therefore everything is on the up and up.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

I'm struggling to follow your argument.  Is it your starting premise that Foxconn workers have poor conditions and pay, or your conclusion because they are threatening to jump off the roof?  And in either case, are you asserting that they are badly off compared to their compatriots, or is your lament about working conditions in China in general? If the former, I think there are plenty of data indicating the contrary.  If the latter, how would you suggest influencing it?  Presumably not simply by artificially inflating the wages of one company that represents tiny fraction of the Chinese workforce.

post #42 of 90

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandor View Post

Where was all the concern about Foxconn workers 20 years ago?

 

20 years ago they couldn't name drop Apple to get hits for websites etc despite the fact that no one has confirmed that said workers and factory have anything to do with Apple. Foxconn is a partner for something like 75 different companies. these folks could be protesting shit conditions at a Samsung tv factory for all we know at this point

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post #43 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange View Post



Like I said "the ignorance and arrogance of Americans" - your total lack of understanding of the real issues, the Chinese economy, society and living conditions just breeds more ignorance. The reality is that China is still a country of around 800 million peasant farmers. The Foxconn workers are in fact making more than anyone else in their families by far, are saving into their own bank accounts, as well as sending money home to support their poor rural families. And somehow you know better what's best for them, or what their issues might be? There are literally 10,000's of thousands of protests in China every year so people do have means of "expressing their discontent". 

Correction: I don't "know better than them," but I can recognize the quite obvious signs of discontent, and assume that they are justified. If China has a long way to go then this is the way that they will get there. What is it exactly that you want them to do? Beg for longer hours? Beg for less pay? If it is unjust, by your own admission, but only less unjust than the alternative it would follow that they have a right to object as well, although perhaps a marginally smaller right. The fact that they get noticed makes it to some extent an obligation for them to draw the light of public indignation on a system of corruption and exploitation.

Your argument that "it is a little better than the worst" is so weak-spirited as to stir in me a mild distaste for you, generally.

The peasant has a rough lot, whether he is French, American, or Chinese. For my part I would wish him the best, even if it looks like anything but the best will come his way. I don't care at all what someone's nationality is: I'm in the camp of human dignity, and I don't see why you'd so fervently oppose the sentiment.
post #44 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanSolecki View Post

Correction: I don't "know better than them," but I can recognize the quite obvious signs of discontent, and assume that they are justified.

So any country that has had a work strike or a suicide (or a threat of suicide) is a bad country in your mind? I bet you could count on one hand the number of countries that don't fit that build.

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post #45 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post



I'm struggling to follow your argument.  Is it your starting premise that Foxconn workers have poor conditions and pay, or your conclusion because they are threatening to jump off the roof?  And in either case, are you asserting that they are badly off compared to their compatriots, or is your lament about working conditions in China in general? If the former, I think there are plenty of data indicating the contrary.  If the latter, how would you suggest influencing it?  Presumably not simply by artificially inflating the wages of one company that represents tiny fraction of the Chinese workforce.

My first premise is that people that are respected and content, do not, as a general rule, threaten mass suicide. My second premise is that because it has happened, we may assume that there is, in fact, some manner of deficiency. The argument is inductive.

The upshot being a decent person would be on the side of the exploited. Since the sentiment is so vehemently against the chinese factory worker, you may draw what conclusions you may about the decency of the Apple Insider forum-goers.

It is quite irrelevant if the Foxconn employees were making iPads or TVs.

Whether or not some "plan of action" can be taken by Americans to positively affect the circumstances of the chinese factory worker is also not of particular relevance to my point, although it could certainly be discussed at length.
post #46 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

So any country that has had a work strike or a suicide (or a threat of suicide) is a bad country in your mind? I bet you could count on one hand the number of countries that don't fit that build.

No. I wouldn't make, and haven't made, that argument. "Bad country" is not a phrase I would use, anyway. What does "bad" mean, and to whom? There are better, narrower ways of defining the ailments of the wayward state.
post #47 of 90

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanSolecki View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post



I'm struggling to follow your argument.  Is it your starting premise that Foxconn workers have poor conditions and pay, or your conclusion because they are threatening to jump off the roof?  And in either case, are you asserting that they are badly off compared to their compatriots, or is your lament about working conditions in China in general? If the former, I think there are plenty of data indicating the contrary.  If the latter, how would you suggest influencing it?  Presumably not simply by artificially inflating the wages of one company that represents tiny fraction of the Chinese workforce.

My first premise is that people that are respected and content, do not, as a general rule, threaten mass suicide. My second premise is that because it has happened, we may assume that there is, in fact, some manner of deficiency. The argument is inductive.

The upshot being a decent person would be on the side of the exploited. Since the sentiment is so vehemently against the chinese factory worker, you may draw what conclusions you may about the decency of the Apple Insider forum-goers.

It is quite irrelevant if the Foxconn employees were making iPads or TVs.

Whether or not some "plan of action" can be taken by Americans to positively affect the circumstances of the chinese factory worker is also not of particular relevance to my point, although it could certainly be discussed at length.

 

So just to clarify - it is the nature of their protest (threatening to jump) that indicates to you that there is particular merit to their claims of exploitation.  If they were merely threatening to strike - a quite ubiquitous bargaining strategy - that would be different?

post #48 of 90
I can't comprehend a job situation so bad that I would jump to my death in protest. Maybe I need a reality check.
post #49 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanSolecki View Post

I mention, in passing, the moral decay in the UK (which reflects that which afflicts the US.)

I happen to agree with a lot of what you've said here tonight..
post #50 of 90

Some reactions here are unbelievable and not showing any kind of humanity.

 

But then again, there's been a TV viewing reassuring us that everything is OK, isn't it?

 

It seems the Apple-fan has become quite conservative. Gingrich supporters?

 

post #51 of 90

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

What these people don't realize is how much better their lives are compared with working back in their home village.

 

They will realize alright when they got booted. lol.

post #52 of 90
Okay, I know I shouldn't, but I was working on the image in my head. If a large number of people jump off a roof, don't the last ones to jump just land on a pile of other people? Thereby minimizing their own injuries. That aside it seems the obvious solutions are -
1) build underground factories, or
2) hide the ladders

I know I'm making light of a serious situation, but I barely have effective influence on my own life much less that of people on the other side of the world. For now I'm going to try to improve the things over which I actually have influence.

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post #53 of 90
I'm stepping out of this conversation at this point. To muppetry I will only say that, with the body of available information I would contend that the chinese factory worker is not sufficiently respected as a human being, and threats of mass suicide are a conspicuous (and not isolated) indication of that fact. You may set different thresholds, judge by different parameters, and reach a different conclusion. I would say, however, that you reached that conclusion deterministically.

As an amendment to my sentiments in this thread, I would mention parenthetically that there are a great deal of Americans and Westerners that respect and fight for human dignity as a principle, and not in the manner of a tribalist (i.e. our human dignity instead of your human dignity) and a few of those have commented on this thread, as a counter ballast to the "Win team America, murder everyone else" crowd.

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post #54 of 90
They need to listen to more Van Halen
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post #55 of 90

I don't care if they jump.

 

Only a mentally unstable fool would threaten to jump off a roof anyway. This is not the act of a sane, rational person.

 

Don't like your job...quit and return in eating rats and dogs in some shit hole village. Problem solved.

post #56 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanSolecki View Post

Obviously the conditions are very bad, and the pay is very low.  That anyone is trying to argue otherwise is a sign of the moral decay in the US/UK.  Anyone with integrity would be wishing all their best to people in a tough spot; people who are trying to make their lives a little better, however they can.  The xenophobia and unveiled hatred is depressing;

I agree entirely. If the situation was reversed, I doubt everyone would be here posting about how great the free market is. Abuse seems to be fine as long as you aren't the one subjected to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta 
perhaps Canada should be pressuring the U.S. to offer a year of paid maternity leave since that's standard there. The Netherlands should be pushing the U.S. to offer 8 weeks vacation per year to all employees. France should be pushing us for a 32 hour work week. The UK should be insisting on free health care for all Americans. Scandinavian countries should demand free college education for all Americans. After all, if we can dictate our standards to China, why can't other countries do the same to us?

You can't equate the vast differences in conditions between China and the west with minor differences between western countries but I believe the best standards should be sought for everyone, regardless of what country you are in. What would be wrong with the US getting 8 weeks vacation, 32 hour work weeks, free health care and free education? That's almost what you get in the UK and it seems to be trundling along just fine.

Minor variations wouldn't be enforced but certainly if US workers were being abused, Europe would absolutely want to step in and help. The Chinese workers were very appreciative of Apple's efforts to improve conditions so to condemn them is to condemn Apple's own efforts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta 
There's an inherent disconnect here. Apple does not have any employees in factories in China. Why are people complaining about Apple? Why not Walmart?

So why not stop at saying 'it's not Apple's problem' instead of trying to justify why Chinese workers should be mistreated?
post #57 of 90

So if they implement the agreement next year things will be different.

 

They work in Foxconn to make money.

 

Now they are earning less so will do your part to supplement their income.

post #58 of 90
They have disgraced themselves, their employer and their country. They should commit harakiri instead.... Oh wait... Wrong country
post #59 of 90

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


You can't equate the vast differences in conditions between China and the west with minor differences between western countries but I believe the best standards should be sought for everyone, regardless of what country you are in. What would be wrong with the US getting 8 weeks vacation, 32 hour work weeks, free health care and free education? That's almost what you get in the UK and it seems to be trundling along just fine.
Minor variations wouldn't be enforced but certainly if US workers were being abused, Europe would absolutely want to step in and help. The Chinese workers were very appreciative of Apple's efforts to improve conditions so to condemn them is to condemn Apple's own efforts.
So why not stop at saying 'it's not Apple's problem' instead of trying to justify why Chinese workers should be mistreated?

 

OK. So you didn't bother to read my post at all - either that or you didn't make any effort to understand it.

 

The Chinese workers are being given one of the best manufacturing jobs in the country. They're being paid much greater than market wages. They are working in a clean, well-lit factory that 95% of Chinese manufacturing workers can only dream of. Their work conditions meet every applicable law in China. In fact, from what I've seen, they meet almost every U.S. labor law, as well.

So where do you get 'Chinese workers are mistreated'?

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post #60 of 90

This problem was solved long ago when Foxcon installed nets.  Let them jump - no problem.

post #61 of 90

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanSolecki View Post

 

Your argument that "it is a little better than the worst" is so weak-spirited as to stir in me a mild distaste for you, generally.
 

 

 

That is a standard pro-Apple argument.    If any aspect of Apple anything is horrid, one need merely find something worse, and thereby turn Apple's shit into gold.

post #62 of 90

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanSolecki View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

So any country that has had a work strike or a suicide (or a threat of suicide) is a bad country in your mind? I bet you could count on one hand the number of countries that don't fit that build.

No. I wouldn't make, and haven't made, that argument. "Bad country" is not a phrase I would use, anyway. What does "bad" mean, and to whom? There are better, narrower ways of defining the ailments of the wayward state.

 

Another standard Apple-supporter form of argument.  If you say anything bad about anything related to Apple, you have overstated things to a ridiculous extreme.

 

Example:  if you say that iOS is not to your liking, then you have proclaimed that tens of millions of people who like it are bad and wrong. 

 

 

post #63 of 90
A shout out to Forbes for pointing out the bias in this reporting. Apparently the factory in question is tied to Microsoft and Xbox, not Apple.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/04/28/apples-reported-foxconn-protest-not-actually-about-apple/
post #64 of 90

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

 

 

OK. So you didn't bother to read my post at all - either that or you didn't make any effort to understand it.

 

The Chinese workers are being given one of the best manufacturing jobs in the country. They're being paid much greater than market wages. They are working in a clean, well-lit factory that 95% of Chinese manufacturing workers can only dream of. Their work conditions meet every applicable law in China. In fact, from what I've seen, they meet almost every U.S. labor law, as well.

So where do you get 'Chinese workers are mistreated'?

So you think what -  that these Chinese workers who are threatening suicide are either "spoiled children" or "manipulators"?       You think there can absolutely be no truth to their complaints?     Personally, I don't know what the reality is and I don't think anyone who hasn't been to the factory really does.   But when people who actively pursued a job threaten suicide once they have it, I have to believe that there's at least some reality behind it.    

 

I'm not one who believes that standards in China (and countries like it) have to meet the standards of the U.S. or western Europe.     The summer I graduated high school, I worked 6 days a week: 75 hours per week + 15 hours of traveling time (but not in a factory).    Years later, as an executive, I worked a minimum of 60 hours a week and that's when I wasn't traveling.     So I don't have a problem with people working long hours.     But I think there's got to be something wrong in the way those factories are run for employees in both China and Brazil to be complaining so much.

 

  

 

post #65 of 90

Last post was moved to a new thread in Political Outsider. This is about Apple, not Socialism, commies, pinkos, liberals, or whomever.

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post #66 of 90

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

 

So you think what -  that these Chinese workers who are threatening suicide are either "spoiled children" or "manipulators"?       You think there can absolutely be no truth to their complaints?     Personally, I don't know what the reality is and I don't think anyone who hasn't been to the factory really does.   But when people who actively pursued a job threaten suicide once they have it, I have to believe that there's at least some reality behind it.    

 

I'm not one who believes that standards in China (and countries like it) have to meet the standards of the U.S. or western Europe.     The summer I graduated high school, I worked 6 days a week: 75 hours per week + 15 hours of traveling time (but not in a factory).    Years later, as an executive, I worked a minimum of 60 hours a week and that's when I wasn't traveling.     So I don't have a problem with people working long hours.     But I think there's got to be something wrong in the way those factories are run for employees in both China and Brazil to be complaining so much.

 

  

 


They've got close to a million employees. What makes you think that you can't have 20 unhappy employees even if the facility is absolutely incredible? 

 

There are some people who will complain about anything - especially when it gives them their moment of fame. 

 

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post #67 of 90
Why jump? Just find a different job!
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post #68 of 90

Unfortunately the Communist NYT and NPR political theories don't result in happy Chinese factory workers.  These workers prefer capitalism.

post #69 of 90

Employee: If I don't get a raise, i'll jump off the roof.

Foxcon: You're fired, turn in your badge and access cards. Grab your stuff and go home. Go jump off your own damn roof. When you exit out tell the guy standing in the front of the line come see me for his access card and badge. He's hired.

post #70 of 90

Apple should say Samsung hired these people to put on this stunt. Everyone knows that being with Apple is bliss.

post #71 of 90

@ DeanSolecki "I don't want my kids growing up in this country of moral/mental abortions."

 

PM me...one of my best friends is a diplomatic officer and I'm quite sure he'll be happy to process you and your family's oath of renunciation and then you'll have 10 days to vacate US territory for whatever country will grant you citizenship. As far as the children are concerned, parents cannot renounce U.S. citizenship on behalf of their minor children.

post #72 of 90

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Postulant View Post

I can't comprehend a job situation so bad that I would jump to my death in protest. Maybe I need a reality check.
 
Martyrdom has been around forever. In this case it's somewhat of a cultural issue. You've most likely seen this infamous photo of a monk engaged in self-immolation. http://bitly.com/IgeFAH  Sheeesh... I mean, how bad do things have to be to set yourself on fire? 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanSolecki View Post

I'm stepping out of this conversation at this point. To muppetry I will only say that, with the body of available information I would contend that the chinese factory worker is not sufficiently respected as a human being, and threats of mass suicide are a conspicuous (and not isolated) indication of that fact. You may set different thresholds, judge by different parameters, and reach a different conclusion. I would say, however, that you reached that conclusion deterministically.
As an amendment to my sentiments in this thread, I would mention parenthetically that there are a great deal of Americans and Westerners that respect and fight for human dignity as a principle, and not in the manner of a tribalist (i.e. our human dignity instead of your human dignity) and a few of those have commented on this thread, as a counter ballast to the "Win team America, murder everyone else" crowd.
We aren't all bad, but the worst of us sure are ambitious. 1wink.gif

 

Well, there are some Americans and other Westerners who fight for dignity and ethics as a principle. I think there are many who believe they are supporting those principles, but they have actually just consumed too much Koolaid. The so called free market gets people to support or fight for dignity & ethics & freedom... when the market place can make money at it. 

 

 

post #73 of 90

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

A shout out to Forbes for pointing out the bias in this reporting. Apparently the factory in question is tied to Microsoft and Xbox, not Apple.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/04/28/apples-reported-foxconn-protest-not-actually-about-apple/

 

So this probably came about because non-Apple Foxconn workers do not enjoy the same conditions as Apple workers because the world continues to ignore them as they are sub-newsworthy and the companies they make products for don't see ANY need to help them.

 

I'll bet that if you went into some of these factories, workers would be discussing the unfairness of Apple workers being treated better than them, so they resort to drastic measures to get the world to notice them.

 

All thanks to a bunch of hypocritical, misguided do-gooders doing their best to paint a big, fat target on Apple.

 

 


Edited by hill60 - 4/28/12 at 4:28pm
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post #74 of 90

I'm surprised by the amount of vitriol coming from most posters. Yes, it's obvious that Apple is being singled out on something that most or all electronic companies are doing but it's Apple. Apple is a massive market leader/innovator and what they do has a tremendous amount of influence. Whenever ANYone is at the top of their industry/sport/profession they will ALWAYS receive more scrutiny than their peers. People will look up to you and frankly, you don't have a choice in that matter. You chose to receive the spotlight when you reached the top. 

 

And how easily we forget the kinds of violent protests that happened here in the United States. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_violence

 

Let's tone down the rhetoric and grow up a little. 

post #75 of 90

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

What these people don't realize is how much better their lives are compared with working back in their home village.

 

You have neither the real knowledge nor the right to tell these people what they should or should not realize. You simply have no clue about what it's like to be in their shoes.

post #76 of 90

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

What these people don't realize is how much better their lives are compared with working back in their home village.

 

You have neither the real knowledge nor the right to tell these people what they should or should not realize. You simply have no clue about what it's like to be in their shoes.

 

I'm pretty sure that Z³ was Poeing with that comment.

post #77 of 90

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange View Post

 The reality is that China is still a country of around 800 million peasant farmers.

 

Yeah, I'm gonna call BS on that.

post #78 of 90

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


"intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries."
So you are both from the US and the UK?

 

He might have dual nationality...

post #79 of 90

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tune View Post

 

 

Yeah, I'm gonna call BS on that.

 

Can anyone explain how a country that supposedly is full of impoverished farmers is on course to become Apple's biggest and most important market?

post #80 of 90

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

 

 

Can anyone explain how a country that supposedly is full of impoverished farmers is on course to become Apple's biggest and most important market?

 

Population 1,336,718,015 as of mid 2011 - 490,000,000 impoverished peasants = 846,718,015 left of which there are probably several times more people than there are in the US who can afford iPhones.

 

The scale of their economy is enormous.

 

 

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