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Drop the "I Word" Campaign

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 

Recently I became aware of a movement that states using word "illegal" in reference to immigrants is actually a slur.  "ColorLines" and the "Applied Research Center" are sponsoring a Drop The I-Word campaign.  I first heard about it while watching an interview the other night with one of the group's leaders.  

 

My initial reaction was that this was absolutely idiotic.  The word "illegal" is applied to people that enter the United States illegally.  It's a crime, whether or not this group believes in should be.  Secondly, I was astounded at the amount of spin and lack of knowledge this woman demonstrated (I don't recall her name).  She wouldn't even explain what the group wants immigration law to be.  Their sole purpose to stop people from using the word "illegal" in reference to "undocumented."  Third, their position seems to be that not only is "illegal" a slur, but it's a racial slur.  That frankly doesn't make sense to me, as there are many illegals (see..I wrote it!) of non-hispanic origin (I'm assuming that's what they mean).   

 

Their website is pretty weird, too.  Here is one of the headline-type snippets/interviews:  

 

 

 

 

 

Your thoughts, please.  

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post #2 of 28

Movements like this are quite literally odd-ball reasoning where intent has taken the place of reality. As you note, the words they often want "dropped" are then reclaimed and used as forms of "empowerment" by the very communities that claimed harm by the word. It is a gigantic load of crap.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #3 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

My initial reaction was that this was absolutely idiotic.

 

Yes, it is idiotic. Period. It is also misleading, even lying.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

The word "illegal" is applied to people that enter the United States illegally.  It's a crime, whether or not this group believes in should be.

 

Correct. It is a word that describes their status. Maybe not who they are as human being, but "illegal immigrant" correctly and accurately describes the status of someone who has immigrated illegally into the country. While I have stated my support for far more open borders and immigration in the U.S. (sans welfare state and entitlement programs of course). This whole thing is just nuts. It is an attempt to lie and make something that is currently illegal not seem illegal.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Their sole purpose to stop people from using the word "illegal" in reference to "undocumented."

 

Of course "undocumented" is a weasel word. But what's worse and what's missed is that there is a subtle and somewhat totalitarian implication in being a "documented" worker vs. and "undocumented" worked. The truth is that we all should be undocumented workers.

 

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post #4 of 28
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

 

Yes, it is idiotic. Period. It is also misleading, even lying.

 

 

 

Correct. It is a word that describes their status. Maybe not who they are as human being, but "illegal immigrant" correctly and accurately describes the status of someone who has immigrated illegally into the country. While I have stated my support for far more open borders and immigration in the U.S. (sans welfare state and entitlement programs of course). This whole thing is just nuts. It is an attempt to lie and make something that is currently illegal not seem illegal.

 

 

 

Of course "undocumented" is a weasel word. But what's worse and what's missed is that there is a subtle and somewhat totalitarian implication in being a "documented" worker vs. and "undocumented" worked. The truth is that we all should be undocumented workers.

 

 

Good points.  I was somewhat taken aback at this campaign and the interview.  I thought the interviewee would at least have some evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) to support her position.  Instead, she tried to dodge questions for no apparent reason.  She wouldn't even respond to the questions of "What does your group want?  What do you think the law should be?  Do you want open borders?  She did her "cause" a lot of damage by that appearance.  

 

The problem here, I think, is that many fringe groups like this simply know they can't publicly state their positions, because those positions are extremely unpopular.  She can't state she wants anyone to be able to come into the country at any time, because she knows most people don't support that.  The same goes for lefty politicians.  It's why very liberal Democrats always run as moderates.  It's a center-right country where liberals can't win national elections.  

 

 

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post #5 of 28

I actually think this is a much needed campaign. Lots of people on here often state they dislike being labeled a such and such. Labels can often just create boundaries, especially those that are negative, or are used in a negative way. In the media "illegal" is often used with the intent of dismissing or aggravating those it's used on. It's long past time that the lives of these undocumented people is given a voice. They're your neighbours for heavens sake, many of them have lived in the US practically all their lives contributing greatly to your lives. They fight and die for their country and they pay more in taxes than they consume. They are driven like your ancestors were to build a better life and like your ancestors that opportunity builds a love and respect for the US. If all you do is put them down, get angry with them and try and ruin their lives, your not only showing a gross disrespect to your country but to yourselves too. 

 

The laws need to catch up and make these immigrants whole, like they deserve. 

 

 

Here's an extract from one of these people who's no longer willing to give in to the stereotypes-

 

 

"My Name is Dulce Guerrero and I am an undocumented student from Georgia.  I came to the United States at the age of 2 along with my parents who were in search of a better life for my brother and I. I am now 19 years old and I have been living in Mableton, Georgia ever since.

 

 

 

Learning about one's undocumented status at such a young age can be a heart breaking moment. Feeling alone in this situation only makes it worse.  There have been many students who have decided it was better to take their own lives before living in this reality. This is one of the many reasons why I decide to share my story every chance I get.  Being able to reach out to someone and find that much needed support is a huge part of being mentally healthy in this movement. If we are going to help others we must first help ourselves. UndocuHealth is a project of NIYA and was created in honor of all those undocumented youth who we have lost throughout the years due to depression and mental health issues.  An issue that is not spoken about openly, but that is very real. UndocuHealth seeks to support students who might be facing these types of challenges.  Students can find more resources and reach out to other undocumented youth who are going through the same situation at undocuhealth.org. UndocuHealth also has a hotline in the works for the near future where undocumented students can call at any time and talk to other undocumented students about what they are feeling.  We realize that no matter what state we live in, we are in this together because no one fights alone!

My name is Dulce, I am a Strong and Beautiful Undocumented Leader; I am Not "illegal.""

~ http://colorlines.com/droptheiword/blog/i-am-a-strong-and-beautiful-undocumented-leader.html


Edited by Hands Sandon - 4/30/12 at 7:23am
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post #6 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Lots of people on here often state they dislike being labeled a such and such. Labels can often just create boundaries, especially those that are negative, or are used in a negative way. In the media "illegal" is often used with the intent of dismissing or aggravating those it's used on.

 

The issue here though is the label is an accurate descriptor of their status or what they have done. It's like calling someone who lies a "liar" or someone who steals and "thief."

 

While I am a supporter of more open immigration, I wonder if dropping the labels is the proper route to that.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

They're your neighbours for heavens sake, many of them have lived in the US practically all their lives contributing greatly to your lives. They fight and die for their country and they pay more in taxes than they consume.

 

On that last point you may be making an assumption. I'm certain that some of them, maybe many, even a majority are net tax payers. But this is hard to know. One thing is certain is that the number of net tax recipients is growing in this country. I doubt that this is primarily immigrants though. In fact we might benefit from a greater influx of immigrants who would rather work and contribute to society than sponge off it as many people in this country do.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

They are driven like your ancestors were to build a better life and like your ancestors that opportunity builds a love and respect for the US. If all you do is put them down, get angry with them and try and ruin their lives, your not only showing a gross disrespect to your country but to yourselves too.

 

I agree that's what most of them are doing, and I would favor more open immigration laws. But, as I've said, I'm not sure that dropping the label is the right way to achieve this.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The laws need to catch up and make these immigrants whole, like they deserve.

 

I agree, the laws need to change. But I'm not certain that simply denying the label is the right path forward. Let's change the laws. Let's make immigration more open. Let's also get rid of all free-riding programs that they or U.S. citizens can exploit. If we do that, then I think we can have all the immigration we want and the country will be better off for it.

 

In conclusion, I'd argue that there are certainly some laws that are worthy of being broken (read aup on the concept of malum in se vs. malum prohibiitum for more on this) and civil disobedience is a proper course of action. But in those cases the disobeyer would be better off claiming the label and using it to bring light to the injustice or immorality of the law being broken. It could be someone standing up and openly saying "I'm an 'illegal' immigrant...I love what America stands for (or used to anyway)...and here's how I contribute* to my community more than I take from it..."

 

*I'm not talking about paying taxes because I don't give a shit about that. I'm sick and tired of everything being about whether someone is paying taxes or their "fair share" or what not. It's actually rather disgusting in a country that was founded basically on a tax revolt! I'm talking about contributing to society. That's not the same thing as paying taxes.

 


Edited by MJ1970 - 4/30/12 at 8:27am

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post #7 of 28

I support the Dream Act and support helping students and young folks like the one giving their personal story below.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I actually think this is a much needed campaign. Lots of people on here often state they dislike being labeled a such and such. Labels can often just create boundaries, especially those that are negative, or are used in a negative way.

 

Labels do create boundaries. However in this case they are describe accurate boundaries because they are discussing those who have come to the country in an illegal manner. Illegal is a negative thing. We define it as such in hopes that people will feel compelled to engage in legal acts. It's almost like we build all those jails, prisons and have those law enforcement officers for a reason.

 

 

Quote:
In the media "illegal" is often used with the intent of dismissing or aggravating those it's used on.

 

This claim cannot be proven and deals more with intent in the mind of someone viewing the news than in the actual reporting. Any topic can be spun but when legitimate words are given "dog whistle" status, then dialog also becomes impossible because it must involve language and words of common meaning. Intentions cannot replace conversation.

 

 

Quote:

It's long past time that the lives of these undocumented people is given a voice. They're your neighbours for heavens sake, many of them have lived in the US practically all their lives contributing greatly to your lives. They fight and die for their country and they pay more in taxes than they consume. They are driven like your ancestors were to build a better life and like your ancestors that opportunity builds a love and respect for the US. If all you do is put them down, get angry with them and try and ruin their lives, your not only showing a gross disrespect to your country but to yourselves too. 

 

There are several incorrect assuptions within those statements. First they aren't often your neighbor. In keeping closer ties and often sending remittances home to native countries, this population often chooses ethnic enclaves and a denser level of housing than is typical. Second the claim about contributing more than they take often assumes that the services they utilize are only used or rendered to their children who are declared U.S. citizens even when they may not be. However if an illegal immigrant has applied for food stamps as an example and qualifies because their child is a U.S. citizen, the study would declare that illegal immigrant to not be receiving any money from the government. Instead it is their child, the citizen who is receiving services and thus they are not a burden. Reality is different though. They are a burden in that they cannot provide for their children and are making demands through their children.

 

Look at how much of your argument has nothing to do with numbers but deals only with feelings and intentions. The law doesn't stop being the law because someone dislikes a label. It doesn't stop being the law because someone feels disrespected or might even feel hated. The law is the law and it should be BLIND.

 

 

Quote:

The laws need to catch up and make these immigrants whole, like they deserve. 

 

Four more years of Obama and the laws won't matter anymore. Mexico will be building fences to keep Americans out since not only will the tide of immigrants have started returning to Mexico as news reports already report, and also since the Mexican economy is growing faster than the U.S economy, but Americans that aren't looters will be fleeing for greener pastures. 

 

 

Quote:

Here's an extract from one of these people who's no longer willing to give in to the stereotypes-

 

"My Name is Dulce Guerrero and I am an undocumented student from Georgia.  I came to the United States at the age of 2 along with my parents who were in search of a better life for my brother and I. I am now 19 years old and I have been living in Mableton, Georgia ever since.

 

Learning about one's undocumented status at such a young age can be a heart breaking moment. Feeling alone in this situation only makes it worse.  There have been many students who have decided it was better to take their own lives before living in this reality. This is one of the many reasons why I decide to share my story every chance I get.  Being able to reach out to someone and find that much needed support is a huge part of being mentally healthy in this movement. If we are going to help others we must first help ourselves. UndocuHealth is a project of NIYA and was created in honor of all those undocumented youth who we have lost throughout the years due to depression and mental health issues.  An issue that is not spoken about openly, but that is very real. UndocuHealth seeks to support students who might be facing these types of challenges.  Students can find more resources and reach out to other undocumented youth who are going through the same situation at undocuhealth.org. UndocuHealth also has a hotline in the works for the near future where undocumented students can call at any time and talk to other undocumented students about what they are feeling.  We realize that no matter what state we live in, we are in this together because no one fights alone!

My name is Dulce, I am a Strong and Beautiful Undocumented Leader; I am Not "illegal.""

~ http://colorlines.com/droptheiword/blog/i-am-a-strong-and-beautiful-undocumented-leader.html

 

 

Dulce is stuck in the middle but not really. She has every opportunity to go back to the country where she has citizenship and is a national to try to build a great life for herself. That said, even with the mistakes her parents have made on her behalf, I would support a path to citizenship for her but the path must involve college with degrees in certain fields or military service from my view. We don't need more community activists. We do need more computer scientists. When someone comes legally, they must be sponsored and the sponsor must show they will not be a societal burden. We do not need dependent, depressed and more people with mental health issues. Mistakes can be fixed with service. If they cannot serve then they must resolve their status by going back to the country where they already have citizenship.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #8 of 28
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I actually think this is a much needed campaign. Lots of people on here often state they dislike being labeled a such and such. Labels can often just create boundaries, especially those that are negative, or are used in a negative way. In the media "illegal" is often used with the intent of dismissing or aggravating those it's used on. It's long past time that the lives of these undocumented people is given a voice. They're your neighbours for heavens sake, many of them have lived in the US practically all their lives contributing greatly to your lives. They fight and die for their country and they pay more in taxes than they consume. They are driven like your ancestors were to build a better life and like your ancestors that opportunity builds a love and respect for the US. If all you do is put them down, get angry with them and try and ruin their lives, your not only showing a gross disrespect to your country but to yourselves too. 

 

The laws need to catch up and make these immigrants whole, like they deserve. 

 

 

Here's an extract from one of these people who's no longer willing to give in to the stereotypes-

 

 

"My Name is Dulce Guerrero and I am an undocumented student from Georgia.  I came to the United States at the age of 2 along with my parents who were in search of a better life for my brother and I. I am now 19 years old and I have been living in Mableton, Georgia ever since.

 

 

 

Learning about one's undocumented status at such a young age can be a heart breaking moment. Feeling alone in this situation only makes it worse.  There have been many students who have decided it was better to take their own lives before living in this reality. This is one of the many reasons why I decide to share my story every chance I get.  Being able to reach out to someone and find that much needed support is a huge part of being mentally healthy in this movement. If we are going to help others we must first help ourselves. UndocuHealth is a project of NIYA and was created in honor of all those undocumented youth who we have lost throughout the years due to depression and mental health issues.  An issue that is not spoken about openly, but that is very real. UndocuHealth seeks to support students who might be facing these types of challenges.  Students can find more resources and reach out to other undocumented youth who are going through the same situation at undocuhealth.org. UndocuHealth also has a hotline in the works for the near future where undocumented students can call at any time and talk to other undocumented students about what they are feeling.  We realize that no matter what state we live in, we are in this together because no one fights alone!

My name is Dulce, I am a Strong and Beautiful Undocumented Leader; I am Not "illegal.""

~ http://colorlines.com/droptheiword/blog/i-am-a-strong-and-beautiful-undocumented-leader.html

 

Calling them "undocumented" is simply a way to to portray illegal immigrants as not having committed a crime.  There are those who truly want NO immigration policy whatsoever.  The Drop the I Word campaign is simply another cog in in their machine for allowing completely open borders.  

 

 

 

Quote:

Lots of people on here often state they dislike being labeled a such and such. 

 

 

Yeah, that's when people get called racists, or stupid, or ignorant, or what have you.  As MJ says, someone who steals is a thief.   Words mean stuff.  

 

 

Quote: 
 In the media "illegal" is often used with the intent of dismissing or aggravating those it's used on.

 

You're making that up.  Really, you're assuming you know the motivations of those in the media.  Examples?  

 

 

 

Quote:
The laws need to catch up and make these immigrants whole, like they deserve. 

 

The only thing they "deserve" is to be treated with dignity.  That doesn't mean they get to stay.  And I have a question:  Do "undocumented" immigrants deserve in-state college tuition breaks and other benefits more than American citizens and legal immigrants?  This was a major point of contention in Texas, and came to the forefront of the debate during the GOP Presidential primary.  Rick Perry supported the Texas version of the Dream Act, allowing students who spent most of their lives in Texas to access in-state college tuition programs.  However, American citizens and legal immigrants from other states paid the out-of-state rate.  Is that right?  

 

 

 

 

Quote:

 UndocuHealth also has a hotline in the works for the near future where undocumented students can call at any time and talk to other undocumented students about what they are feeling.

 

 

You know Hands, I don't mean to be too hard on you here, but I notice you're really tugging at the heart strings..  Why must liberals always do this?  Whenever there is an issue on which they know they can't win politically, they start parading victims around.  They start crying and weeping "for the children," and reference feelings instead of logic and reason.   That's exactly what's happening here.  You're actually arguing that calling illegal immigrants illegal immigrants or illegals shouldn't be done because it hurts their feelings.  Then  you get into mental health issues that supposedly come from their feelings of isolation (and guilt?) from being an illegal immigrant to the U.S.  Really?  With the millions of ILLEGAL immigrants in this country and the major border security problems we have (not to mention to the rest of our economic, military and social problems) you expect me to worry about their feelings?  You expect me to put this on par with the problems American citizens and legal immigrants face, like unemployment, education and housing?  

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post #9 of 28
It's the use of the term 'illegal' as a noun rather than an adjective. My guess is that most of us here have committed an illegal act. Are we all "illegals?"
post #10 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

It's the use of the term 'illegal' as a noun rather than an adjective. My guess is that most of us here have committed an illegal act. Are we all "illegals?"

 

First, while I agree that no human being is "illegal" it is also patently disingenuous to fail to recognize that the people who use the term "illegal" as a noun in this particular case are using it as a short-hand expression for someone who has entered the country illegally. While I personally, prefer to be more precise in my wording, I suspect this campaign would cringe and oppose my referring to someone who has illegally entered the country as an "illegal immigrant" just as much as if I said they were an "illegal."

 

Second, while you're correct that we have undoubtedly all done something illegal (some claim the average person cannot get through the day without (mostly unknowingly) breaking 3-4 laws or regulations) I think most would agree that there's a marked difference between someone that unknowingly or mistakenly does something illegal and someone who deliberately and persistently does something illegal. Someone who is living in an illegal status with regard to the laws of a particular area might be considered an "illegal"...or perhaps an "outlaw" as they are living outside the law.

 

For example we don't call someone who has an occasional alcoholic beverage an alcoholic but someone who persistently and regularly drinks and abuses alcohol (or drugs) is called an addict.

 

We might not call someone who has lied once or twice or told a "white lie" a liar, we would certainly call someone who lies regularly and continues to lie a liar.

 

And so on.

 

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post #11 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post
Second, while you're correct that we have undoubtedly all done something illegal (some claim the average person cannot get through the day without (mostly unknowingly) breaking 3-4 laws or regulations) I think most would agree that there's a marked difference between someone that unknowingly or mistakenly does something illegal and someone who deliberately and persistently does something illegal. Someone who is living in an illegal status with regard to the laws of a particular area might be considered an "illegal"...or perhaps an "outlaw" as they are living outside the law.

 

For example we don't call someone who has an occasional alcoholic beverage an alcoholic but someone who persistently and regularly drinks and abuses alcohol (or drugs) is called an addict.

 

We might not call someone who has lied once or twice or told a "white lie" a liar, we would certainly call someone who lies regularly and continues to lie a liar.

 

A nice summary. Similarly, one would be considered a 'refugee' if they were fleeing, say, a war in their home country. Should they decide to simply permanently settle where they are now instead of returning, they cease to be a refugee. Should an illegal immigrant decide to take the tests and get the citizenship, they cease to be an illegal immigrant.

post #12 of 28
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

It's the use of the term 'illegal' as a noun rather than an adjective. My guess is that most of us here have committed an illegal act. Are we all "illegals?"

 

 

"Illegal" is simply short for "illegal immigrant."  That's what people who enter the country illegally are.  I suppose if it's being used as a slur ("I walked in and saw a bunch of fucking illegals") that would be one thing.  But this group simply opposes the term "illegal" and "illegal immigrant."  I imagine they are not fond of the terms illegal alien or foreigner  either.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

A nice summary. Similarly, one would be considered a 'refugee' if they were fleeing, say, a war in their home country. Should they decide to simply permanently settle where they are now instead of returning, they cease to be a refugee. Should an illegal immigrant decide to take the tests and get the citizenship, they cease to be an illegal immigrant.

 

The central claim of the group is absurd...that it's a "racist" term.  Yes, the majority of illegals are of hispanic origin.  But then again, that's like saying the terms "criminal" or "convict" are racist because blacks being disproportionally imprisoned compared to their total percent of the population.  

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post #13 of 28

I just looked at this site and... come on, this has got to be a parody site, created by The Onion. UndocuQueer? My bet is that it was in Andrew Breitbart's will to put this up.

post #14 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

I just looked at this site and... come on, this has got to be a parody site, created by The Onion. UndocuQueer? My bet is that it was in Andrew Breitbart's will to put this up.

 

Unfortunately I think it's real.  

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post #15 of 28

Technically, undocumented people are in the country illegally, so the term 'illegal immigrants" is a fair descriptor. And it is a double standard that some folk - especially those from south of the US Mexico border  seem to think that they are a special case in that they play the race card at the first opportunity, while others take the time and considerable expense (immigration lawyers are very expensive) of doing the right thing.

 

On the other hand, there is pressure exerted by parties, especially in big agribusiness, for profit motives, to bring illegals/undocumenteds over the border to work the fields at less than minimum wage to bring cheap produce to the dinner table. In towns adjacent to the border, billboards can be seen advertising everything from the services of "coyotes" to employment and a better life in the US. Employers of illegals seldom get busted, despite the fact that millions of illegals are working in the US.

 

Those who originally settled in the US were immigrants, and arrived without documentation - obviously. At what point in US history did this change? Most of us - barring native peoples - are the descendants of "undocumenteds".

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #16 of 28

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #17 of 28

@trumpton

 

This is a mind boggling retarded classic!!! Your folk are all for minimising taxes for the rich. Take advantage of any loophole and the rich are just doing what anyone else would do in their position. But if one of these sinister little Mexican peasants dares to avoid paying taxes, indeed gets money back, like so many US corporations, scream about it, till they're all bused home and liberals are excluded from the patriotic ranks of American society.

 

The fact is illegal immigrants use about 50% of the tax dollars of legal immigrants. Look it up. 

 

I'm not for any of the scamming personally, but I sure look forward to you and your folks screaming about...

 

"When it comes to dodging taxes, no company is more skilled than General Electric. As The New York Times reported last year, the company employees 975 tax experts, many of whom used to work for the IRS or the Treasury. From 2008 through 2010, it spent $84 million lobbying Congress. The money was well spent: despite making $10.5 billion in U.S. profits over the three years, GE paid no federal taxes and got $4.7 billion back in rebates." ~ http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2012/02/23/the-top-ten-corporate-tax-dodgers.html


Edited by Hands Sandon - 5/3/12 at 3:55pm
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #18 of 28

@ mj1970-

 

I had to look up the Latin term and came across this, that perhaps you would agree with. The term "illegal" is clearly being used to mould opinion, it's an abuse of the Mexican's and the word. 

 

 

"Looked at differently, to call "criminal" those persons whose only offenses are merely malum prohibitum is unfairly and inappropriately to tar them with the scorn and wariness that is deserved only by persons who commit genuine offenses against others.

And such language clouds and confuses the political debate.  Because most persons understand the word "criminal" to indicate an individual who, to one degree or another, is harmfully anti-social, calling immigrants who are in the U.S. without official government permission "criminal" gives the impression that these people are all harmfully anti-social.  But that impression is emphatically false (unless you include in your definition of "anti-social" the desire for a better life and willingness to compete for jobs).

There is a legitimate debate over how open America’s borders should be.  But that debate today is far too soiled by those persons who think that merely calling "illegal" immigrants "criminals" settles the matter.  It does not.  "Illegal" immigrants are "criminals" only because government policy declares them to be — in the same way that persons openly practicing Christianity or Judaism in Soviet Russia were "criminals" only because government policy declared them to be.  The contours and specifics of this policy are precisely what is at issue in the debate over how widely open U.S. borders ought to be.  This debate should be on the economics and the national-security issues raised by immigration; it should not be confused by the confusing (and often self-serving) application of the term "criminal" to persons who come to America without Uncle Sam’s permission — permission that is very difficult to get."

~ http://cafehayek.com/2007/05/malum_in_se_mal.html


Edited by Hands Sandon - 5/3/12 at 3:49pm
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #19 of 28
Thread Starter 

Hands:

 

 

 

 

Quote:

 

The is classic! Your folk are all for minimising taxes for the rich. Take advantage of any loophole and the rich are just doing what anyone else would do in their position. But if one of these sinister little Mexican peasants dares to avoid paying taxes, indeed gets money back, like so many US corporations, scream about it, till they're all bused home and liberals are excluded from the patriotic ranks of American society.

 

The fact is illegal immigrants use about 50% of the tax dollars of legal immigrants. Look it up. 

 

I'm not for any of the scamming personally, but I sure look forward to you and your folks screaming about...

 

"When it comes to dodging taxes, no company is more skilled than General Electric. As The New York Times reported last year, the company employees 975 tax experts, many of whom used to work for the IRS or the Treasury. From 2008 through 2010, it spent $84 million lobbying Congress. The money was well spent: despite making $10.5 billion in U.S. profits over the three years, GE paid no federal taxes and got $4.7 billion back in rebates." ~ http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2012/02/23/the-top-ten-corporate-tax-dodgers.html

 

 

 

Yes, by all means...let's ignore the millions of illegal immigrants that don't pay taxes.  Let's pretend that they are not FLOODING our schools and ERs with people.  And let's continue to bash corporations who use current law to minimize their tax burden.  We're certainly not going to talk about changing tax laws so they are not retarded and ineffective.  No, no...let's be partisan!  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #20 of 28

@ sammijo

 

They were documented... they had their Bibles. ;)

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Yes, by all means...let's ignore the millions of illegal immigrants that don't pay taxes.  Let's pretend that they are not FLOODING our schools and ERs with people.  And let's continue to bash corporations who use current law to minimize their tax burden.  We're certainly not going to talk about changing tax laws so they are not retarded and ineffective.  No, no...let's be partisan!  

From what I've seen the majority of UndocuPeople (ha) pay income and payroll taxes because it just comes out of the paycheck - and they won't be getting that social security or medicare when they retire, so they're paying more than they'll get back. And of course they pay sales taxes and property taxes and the like. If they have kids in public schools, they're paying for them just like any other property owner via property taxes, and if they're renting then they're not paying for the schools just like any "legals" who are renting.

 

I think most economists would say that immigration - legal or illegal - is an economic benefit to the country. In the end, to most people it's probably more a matter of the racial makeup of the country than the economics of it.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Technically, undocumented people are in the country illegally, so the term 'illegal immigrants" is a fair descriptor.

If you look at that (crazy) website, they object to the use of the term "illegal" as a noun, as if they're describing the entire person as illegal.

post #22 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

From what I've seen the majority of UndocuPeople (ha) pay income and payroll taxes because it just comes out of the paycheck - and they won't be getting that social security or medicare when they retire, so they're paying more than they'll get back. And of course they pay sales taxes and property taxes and the like. If they have kids in public schools, they're paying for them just like any other property owner via property taxes, and if they're renting then they're not paying for the schools just like any "legals" who are renting.

 

I think most economists would say that immigration - legal or illegal - is an economic benefit to the country. In the end, to most people it's probably more a matter of the racial makeup of the country than the economics of it.

 

If you look at that (crazy) website, they object to the use of the term "illegal" as a noun, as if they're describing the entire person as illegal.

 

Pardon me, BRussell, but you are talking out of butt.  Remember, I am a teacher.  I have seen first hand the effects illegal immigration has on our schools.  The problem is that you are assuming that illegal immigrant children cost the same to educate.  They do not.  English as a Second Language budgets have positively exploded in our public schools, as have the number of children in high immigrant population areas.  These people are often not paying significant property taxes as they live in small rental "homes" that are overcrowded.  They do not have medical insurance, so they go to the ER when they get sick.   My brother's wife is an educator in Houston, TX.  She knows even better than I.  Our schools and health facilities are literally being overrun by illegal immigrants.  It is creating a massive drain on the system.  

 

One specific example:  In the coal-region town of Hazelton, PA, mayor Lou Barletta has attracted much national attention after pushing for tough anti-illegal immigrant policies.  One of the reasons was the city's school system, but also the rise of a "little Mexico" in parts of the town, with high crime rates and blight.  A few years ago, the school released the data on ESL costs.  5 years prior, the ESL budget was a few thousand dollars for the district.  At the time of data's release it was $800,000.   This is happening all over the country. And imagine what it's like in a border state as opposed to one 2,000 miles away from the Mexican border.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #23 of 28

Pardon me, SDW, but you are spewing logorrhea from your asshole.  Illegal immigration has declined and many are heading back home.  Furthermore, your ER story is just another example of why RONALD REAGAN'S solution of socializing medicine (preventing ERs from turning away patients) didn't go far enough.  If we had universal healthcare for all, legal or not, the costs wouldn't be so outrageous.  

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #24 of 28
It's pretty easy to spot hatred over rational thought when people, like SDW is doing, uses blanket statements. Here's just some of what they ignore-

"Unauthorized immigrants are disproportionately likely to have low incomes, and although most of them work, they are even more likely than LPRs (46 percent) to work at small firms that do not provide insurance. As a result, most unauthorized immigrants (6 million working-age adults and 660,000 children) are uninsured, accounting for 15 percent of the overall uninsured. Yet it is not widely recognized that 31 percent of unauthorized immigrants (some 3.2 million working-age adults and 460,000 children) already have employer coverage."
~ http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/healthcare-Oct09.pdf

They also pay, like generations before them, into the system through taxes, whilst what they get back is only half what an authorised immigrants receives. They're being ripped off. You would have thought that with the US's long history of immigration and discrimination, especially towards the Irish and Africans, that these hateful views would be a very small minority, but sadly they're still widespread. Sadly a portion of the population will never learn and will continue to create fear and immense suffering, always ready to serve their racist masters who delight in utopian goals for their own kind.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #25 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Pardon me, SDW, but you are spewing logorrhea from your asshole.  Illegal immigration has declined and many are heading back home.  Furthermore, your ER story is just another example of why RONALD REAGAN'S solution of socializing medicine (preventing ERs from turning away patients) didn't go far enough.  If we had universal healthcare for all, legal or not, the costs wouldn't be so outrageous.  

 

You're kidding, right?  Of course it's declining...because the economy sucks.  Hey, maybe we should hope for the economy to keep sucking!  Problem solved!  And leave it to you, BR....you found a way to blame a Republican.  Surprise!

 

 

Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
It's pretty easy to spot hatred over rational thought when people, like SDW is doing, uses blanket statements. Here's just some of what they ignore-

 

Go screw.  I'm telling you what IS happening.  Feel free to ignore it and live in fantasy land.  

 

 

Quote:
"Unauthorized immigrants are disproportionately likely to have low incomes, and although most of them work, they are even more likely than LPRs (46 percent) to work at small firms that do not provide insurance. As a result, most unauthorized immigrants (6 million working-age adults and 660,000 children) are uninsured, accounting for 15 percent of the overall uninsured. Yet it is not widely recognized that 31 percent of unauthorized immigrants (some 3.2 million working-age adults and 460,000 children) already have employer coverage."
http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/healthcare-Oct09.pdf

 

And this contradicts my argument...how?  They are flooding ERs and schools.  Distract all you want. 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
They also pay, like generations before them, into the system through taxes, whilst what they get back is only half what an authorised immigrants receives. They're being ripped off. You would have thought that with the US's long history of immigration and discrimination, especially towards the Irish and Africans, that these hateful views would be a very small minority, but sadly they're still widespread. Sadly a portion of the population will never learn and will continue to create fear and immense suffering, always ready to serve their racist masters who delight in utopian goals for their own kind.

 

lol.giflol.giflol.giflol.giflol.gif

 

Illegal immigrants, on the whole, don't pay taxes like legal immigrants and citizens do.  Any benefits they may receive are a net drain on the system, from in-state tuition, to ER care, to education.  It has absolutely nothing to do with race, you ass clown.  It has to do with economics.  It has to do with reality.  

 

Oh, and don't ever imply I'm a racist again. Thanks.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #26 of 28

Are you denying that Reagan is partly responsible for the increased healthcare costs due to his half-measure of socializing only the ERs?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Are you denying that Reagan is partly responsible for the increased healthcare costs due to his half-measure of socializing only the ERs?

 

I would have no trouble believing that that's actually true, because whenever the government gets involved with something the more costly it gets. This happens repeatedly. So often in fact that it's almost a proverb at this point.

 

The problem here is that you propose the government get more involved. That will only make things worse.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #28 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Are you denying that Reagan is partly responsible for the increased healthcare costs due to his half-measure of socializing only the ERs?

 

Not at all, minus the implication we should socialize everything else.  What I am questioning is why blaming Reagan has any relevance to what's happening today. 

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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