Also, I find the sudden appearance of the article in the NY Times amusing considering the deep ocean of trouble their owner, Rupert Murdoch, is currently floundering (with regards to the wiretap scandal in England).
Murdoch has no ownership of the NY Times. His company News Corp. owns the Wall Street Journal.
We are being eaten alive by 3 factors. First it is cost efficient to pay a lobbyist for business rather than create a product that is in demand from the public. 2 it is always possible to pay for tax deductions, and credits by adding a few dollars to the hat of some congressman. 3 It is hard work to produce a good and productive enterprise and it is much easier to shirk this responsibility if you are in government. If you assume that government cannot do anything then you are as bad as someone who believes that government should do everything. You are making it easier to justify all 3 of the above behaviors. We need good government. When this means smaller then by all means lets cut it out, but no one with any economic sense would want to kill all the productive research and development that the government has been doing for our country over the last 50 years.
The reason we have a deficit is spending has increased and income has been cut because both of these are popular decisions. We need leaders who are willing to make unpopular decisions or more people who are willing to change the system we have because if we ignore the problem it will destroy the most productive society in the history of mankind.
Apple should tell them to pound sand.
Besides, the entire premise of the claim is wrong.
Apple's income taxes are only part of the equation. As long as Apple is legally calculating and filing their taxes, no one has any right to complain. But beyond that:
Sales taxes. Apple sells well over $100 B in products a year. Let's assume that the average sales tax rate is 5% (obviously, it's zero in some places, but as high as 17% or more in parts of Europe). That's $5,000,000,000 in sales taxes from selling Apple products.
Then, Apple will be issuing a dividend this year. I'm not going to look up the number, but say it's $20 B. If the average recipient pays 30%, that's another $6,000,000,000 in income taxes.
Add in 30,000 direct employees. When you add income taxes, employment taxes, etc, that's probably close to another $1,000,000,000.
Finally, all the indirect jobs created. Apple claims as many as 500,000, so multiple that last figure by 10.
Clearly, the government is getting a lot of tax revenue based on Apple's success. The whiners really need to just shut the heck up. If there's a problem with the tax code, then they should lobby the government to fix it. But singling out one company and chastising them for not paying more taxes than legally required is asinine. And, btw, how about if all the executives at the NYT publish their tax returns and show us how much more tax they paid than they were legally required to.
Actually Apple might be viewed as terribly inefficient and wasteful, since it has far more money than it knows what to do with. I believe Tim Cook said so himself.
Oh, dear, I hadn't noticed Apple moved its HQ out of California.
You know what I meant. You think it's a loophole that Apple chose to move some of its business to Nevada because the tax rate is lower. I'm asking how you suggest the "loophole" be closed? Should the government force them to do business in CA?
You know what I meant. You think it's a loophole that Apple chose to move some of its business to Nevada because the tax rate is lower. I'm asking how you suggest the "loophole" be closed? Should the government force them to do business in CA?
What proportion of Apple's operating budget is spent in California? Perhaps that would make a good basis for computing the taxes they should pay on their profits.
Just a thought.
Did Apple remember to subtract the millions of jobs they have caused to be lost at RIM, HP and others around the world? And all the associated small independent companies that have gone bankrupt because there aren't enough handsets/tablets sold to support them developing the necessary software for those OS's?
Also, I find the sudden appearance of the article in the NY Times amusing considering the deep ocean of trouble their owner, Rupert Murdoch, is currently floundering (with regards to the wiretap scandal in England).
Murdoch has no ownership of the NY Times. His company News Corp. owns the Wall Street Journal.
It is the disgusting habit of humans who covet or wish to hold power with the help of those that do, to berate and attempt to destroy the successful. All too often the attacks are illogical and contrary to the best interests of those who make them. Apple obviously greatly benefits this country to an incredible degree be it in taxes paid and generated by sales, employment of tens of thousands, support businesses or the national trade deficit. It becomes ironical when liberal minded people or companies become the target of such attacks. I often wonder why businesses and CEOs are so often targets yet hollywood and the athletically inclined who are paid tens of millions for producing nothing but entertainment are given a free pass.
We are well into becoming Bizarro World where logic is contrary.
It's amazing how we all talk about free market and when one is successful and does very well, we all have to start complaining about it. Why wasn't NY Times looking into this practice when Apple was in dumps. Come on, every MNC are doing this. Sometime I think out own media is our own enemy!
We are being eaten alive by 3 factors. First it is cost efficient to pay a lobbyist for business rather than create a product that is in demand from the public. 2 it is always possible to pay for tax deductions, and credits by adding a few dollars to the hat of some congressman. 3 It is hard work to produce a good and productive enterprise and it is much easier to shirk this responsibility if you are in government. If you assume that government cannot do anything then you are as bad as someone who believes that government should do everything. You are making it easier to justify all 3 of the above behaviors. We need good government. When this means smaller then by all means lets cut it out, but no one with any economic sense would want to kill all the productive research and development that the government has been doing for our country over the last 50 years.
The reason we have a deficit is spending has increased and income has been cut because both of these are popular decisions. We need leaders who are willing to make unpopular decisions or more people who are willing to change the system we have because if we ignore the problem it will destroy the most productive society in the history of mankind.
Sorry, what "research and development"?
Perhaps Apple should just move to Nevada or better yet move to Ireland or somewhere more friendlier to corporations..
Apple should just ignore. The way I see it, this is nothing more than a political kabuki theatre. The mainstream media and liberals are gearing up to blame "tax dodgers" like Apple and GE, for the impending fiscal crisis - largely caused by years and decades of out-of-control deficit / debt liberal welfare / warfare spending. Alas, companies like Apple are perfect scapegoats for politicians' mismanagement of the economy.
Imagine the vitriol had the article stated Apple paid more taxes than required by tax law.
Apple's contribution to America reaches far beyond the tax revenue they generate. Innovation is far more important.
Note to Obama: Please stop berating the wealthy and successful. They do good things for this country. We need enough regulation to create a level playing field. After that, get out of the way and allow American ingenuity to thrive.
Wow the country which once revolted because of being taxed is now the heaviest taxer in the world! Today we revolt when others don't do as they should and bend over, as it were, for the King and his military.
I'm sure our forefathers are spinning in their graves.
Did Apple remember to subtract the millions of jobs they have caused to be lost at RIM, HP and others around the world? And all the associated small independent companies that have gone bankrupt because there aren't enough handsets/tablets sold to support them developing the necessary software for those OS's?
Well, RIM is Canadian, Samsung (South Korea), HTC (Taiwan), Nokia (Finland).. Motorola was already in decline, so it wouldn't have mattered much. On the other hand, Apple's contractor Foxconn hires hundreds of thousands of workers in China, so it's net positive.
Who decides what constitutes fair? Some liberal wankers at the New York Slimes?...
The people criticizing Apple are anti-American...
I wouldn't even wipe my ass with the New York Slimes, as I'd probably catch some nasty liberal disease from it.
I am speechless. The ignorance, intolerance, and utterly disgusting and childish posts on this site are just too much sometimes.
To the rest of you arguing Apple greatly benefits America (and thus sidestepping/dodging taxes is completely fine), you should at least consider how our government and society have benefited Apple. Educating its employees, providing a secure environment, constructing infrastructure, and much more. Of course Apple benefits America. Nobody is arguing they don't. And yes, it's legal to evade taxes. Just maybe they shouldn't. That, or the loopholes should be closed. Something to consider.
And please, a little civility and respect. Insults and petty appeals to emotion don't strengthen your argument - it just makes you look uneducated and immature. Not everyone that disagrees with you is anti-American, a socialist, or a wanker. Thanks.
if I had a successful little company earning $10 million / year, with say 5 employees, you better believe the government will expect a share of my money. What's unfair is, if I make $10 billion / year, I can afford a white shoe tax engineer law firm (roughly $50 million/yr) to stonewash my tax bill down to zero percent. That's WRONG!! Megacorps should not have this advantage over small business.
The solution is to eliminate corporate tax and concentrate on collecting a percentage of wealthy people's realized income. Don't do it on the business side. Do it on the shareholder side. It's easier and demonstrably works better.
IF you had a company with only 5 employees you would not have a presence in most of the USA and employees worldwide, therefore you wouldn't need a "white shoe tax engineer law firm" to study the tax problems associated with a multi-national, country-wide operation. In fact with only 5 employees you'd have a single state presence within a single county within likely a single tax zone. You could turn your books over to a CPA and be totally served.
Megacorps, to use your expression, have an expensive expense burden (let's use your $50 million/yr) to make sure they are in compliance with all the weird-assed laws (including tax laws) throughout the world and one's own country. To turn your first paragraph argument around: Megacorps should not have this advantage expense that over small businesses don't have.
Did Apple remember to subtract the millions of jobs they have caused to be lost at RIM, HP and others around the world? And all the associated small independent companies that have gone bankrupt because there aren't enough handsets/tablets sold to support them developing the necessary software for those OS's?
And it's Apple's responsibility to make sure competing businesses are able to keep their employees? How does that logic work in competition? Shouldn't you be asking why those businesses aren't able to compete today when many of them were miles ahead of Apple in their respective industry a few years ago?
I am speechless. The ignorance, intolerance, and utterly disgusting and childish posts on this site are just too much sometimes.
To the rest of you arguing Apple greatly benefits America (and thus sidestepping/dodging taxes is completely fine), you should at least consider how our government and society have benefited Apple. Educating its employees, providing a secure environment, constructing infrastructure, and much more. Of course Apple benefits America. Nobody is arguing they don't. And yes, it's legal to evade taxes. Just maybe they shouldn't. That, or the loopholes should be closed. Something to consider.
And please, a little civility and respect. Insults and petty appeals to emotion don't strengthen your argument - it just makes you look uneducated and immature. Not everyone that disagrees with you is anti-American, a socialist, or a wanker. Thanks.
I don't believe it is legal to evade taxes. However, any business that doesn't take every available deduction is just foolish and could be making themselves uncompetitive with companies that are doing so. The federal, state and local governments have it within their authority to modify tax laws at any time...after all, they created the laws in the first place.
FYI: When you use pejorative terms like "evade" and "loopholes" when you write, you begin to sound like those you find so ignorant and intolerant.
To the rest of you arguing Apple greatly benefits America (and thus sidestepping/dodging taxes is completely fine), you should at least consider how our government and society have benefited Apple. Educating its employees, providing a secure environment, constructing infrastructure, and much more. Of course Apple benefits America. Nobody is arguing they don't. And yes, it's legal to evade taxes. Just maybe they shouldn't. That, or the loopholes should be closed. Something to consider.
No, it is illegal to evade taxes, and Apple is not being accused of that. It is legal to minimize (avoid) taxes, and Apple, in common with all publicly traded companies, has an obligation to its shareholders to do that.
Taxes had little to do with moving production to Foxconn. In China, Foxconn can advertise and have 10,000 industrial engineers on the payroll within a week. When Foxconn needs 50,000 assemblers, they can be found in a week. This kind of sudden change in production levels cannot be accomplished in most of the countries in the world. In the USA, we could not even get the production lines set up in such short periods, much less find the people to work them.
The problem reminds me of an old communist joke: In Russia, in the 1960s expansive "5-year plans" were often announced that could not be attained. In effect if it took 1,000,000 farmers to raise X number of tons of wheat in one year, then 6,000,000 farmers could get it done in 2 months.
Right now, China gets the contracts to manufacturer and their government gets the taxes from their people and manufacturers. If Apple should stop making iPods tomorrow, then that economic impact will be felt in China, not by Apple. By not owning the factories Apple can" buy" production as needed. The old idea of bringing everything in house, a la 1970s, has largely gone away.
Wow the country which once revolted because of being taxed is now the heaviest taxer in the world! Today we revolt when others don't do as they should and bend over, as it were, for the King and his military.
I'm sure our forefathers are spinning in their graves.
You don't know squat. The USA is FAR from being the most taxes country. Use Google for a few seconds before you expose your ignorance to badly.
I am speechless. The ignorance, intolerance, and utterly disgusting and childish posts on this site are just too much sometimes.
I notice that you do not address or even present a single educated rebuttal to any of the valid points that I made in my lengthy post which lays out why it is simply wrong for anybody to demand that Apple pays more than their legal share in taxes in compliance with the law.
I find your view to be extremely ignorant and also rather shallow minded. And just FYI, it is the left in this country which has recently been demonizing the successful and the rich, and I do not need to be tolerant towards intolerant individuals and leftist media outlets which promotes such propaganda.
Apple should tell them to pound sand.
Besides, the entire premise of the claim is wrong.
Apple's income taxes are only part of the equation. As long as Apple is legally calculating and filing their taxes, no one has any right to complain. But beyond that:
Sales taxes. Apple sells well over $100 B in products a year. Let's assume that the average sales tax rate is 5% (obviously, it's zero in some places, but as high as 17% or more in parts of Europe). That's $5,000,000,000 in sales taxes from selling Apple products.
Then, Apple will be issuing a dividend this year. I'm not going to look up the number, but say it's $20 B. If the average recipient pays 30%, that's another $6,000,000,000 in income taxes.
Add in 30,000 direct employees. When you add income taxes, employment taxes, etc, that's probably close to another $1,000,000,000.
Property taxes? I'm not even going to guess.
Finally, all the indirect jobs created. Apple claims as many as 500,000, so multiple that last figure by 10.
Clearly, the government is getting a lot of tax revenue based on Apple's success. The whiners really need to just shut the heck up. If there's a problem with the tax code, then they should lobby the government to fix it. But singling out one company and chastising them for not paying more taxes than legally required is asinine. And, btw, how about if all the executives at the NYT publish their tax returns and show us how much more tax they paid than they were legally required to.
Good post. There'a very few companies that have created such an ecosystem of wealth for so many other companies and people to a greater extent than Apple has- if any. I can't even imagine the # of companies whose health and success is directly linked to Apple's success. Yes, Apple has done extremely well for itself, but in the process it has cropped up entirely new industries and made possible the livelihood of so many people not even connected to the company. Think about the hundreds of development companies, accessory and case makers, etc for Apple products whose success is directly a success of Apple's success. Apple has benefitted so many in so many different ways. Yet it's not surprising that these negative stories and manufactured outrages/controversies have been so common the past few months. It's fun to tear down a successful company that has created its success legitimately by creating things people love and through unprecedented, constant innovation, and ignore everyone else, that have much worse business practises and have contributed little to nothing worth a damn beyond aping all of Apple's innovations.
Why Apple finds it necessary to defend themselves publicly against these socialist mouthpieces (Mike Daisey, NY Times) is beyond me. They should just call them up individually late at night, like Steve used to do, and berate them until they cry "Uncle"!
These "socialist mouthpieces" are simply pointing out the hypocrisy that if "corporations are people too" then there is a massive discrepancy between average corporate tax rates and average personal tax rates. Apple pays less than 10 % corporate tax. How much tax do you pay? If corporations paid more (their fair share of) tax then either you would pay less tax or you would get much better and cheaper public services, or a combination of the two.
The tax is only on corporate profits. Apple are making squillians and they can afford to give a bit more back. If they paid just 20 % tax that's billions more to support things like hospitals, schools, roads, whatever! If I were in California with a broke government I'd be wanting the law changed to close some of these loopholes!
These "socialist mouthpieces" are simply pointing out the hypocrisy that if "corporations are people too" then there is a massive discrepancy between average corporate tax rates and average personal tax rates. Apple pays less than 10 % corporate tax. How much tax do you pay? If corporations paid more (their fair share of) tax then either you would pay less tax or you would get much better and cheaper public services, or a combination of the two.
The tax is only on corporate profits. Apple are making squillians and they can afford to give a bit more back. If they paid just 20 % tax that's billions more to support things like hospitals, schools, roads, whatever! If I were in California with a broke government I'd be wanting the law changed to close some of these loopholes!
The problem is not Apple. I'd say that the problem is the nearly 50% of Americans who don't contribute squat. These same people are probably the same types of people who demand that others contribute more. That's very generous of them.
Sales taxes. Apple sells well over $100 B in products a year. Let's assume that the average sales tax rate is 5% (obviously, it's zero in some places, but as high as 17% or more in parts of Europe). That's $5,000,000,000 in sales taxes from selling Apple products.
Yeah but who's paying that sales tax...Apple or you and I?
Also, I find the sudden appearance of the article in the NY Times amusing considering the deep ocean of trouble their owner, Rupert Murdoch, is currently floundering (with regards to the wiretap scandal in England).
I noticed that somebody already corrected you on the next page, but you gotta admit, that was quite a blunder. :) Murdoch would probably be the last person on earth to be associated with owning a left wing newspaper like the NYT.
Taxes had little to do with moving production to Foxconn. In China, Foxconn can advertise and have 10,000 industrial engineers on the payroll within a week. When Foxconn needs 50,000 assemblers, they can be found in a week. This kind of sudden change in production levels cannot be accomplished in most of the countries in the world. In the USA, we could not even get the production lines set up in such short periods, much less find the people to work them.
The problem reminds me of an old communist joke: In Russia, in the 1960s expansive "5-year plans" were often announced that could not be attained. In effect if it took 1,000,000 farmers to raise X number of tons of wheat in one year, then 6,000,000 farmers could get it done in 2 months.
Right now, China gets the contracts to manufacturer and their government gets the taxes from their people and manufacturers. If Apple should stop making iPods tomorrow, then that economic impact will be felt in China, not by Apple. By not owning the factories Apple can" buy" production as needed. The old idea of bringing everything in house, a la 1970s, has largely gone away.
It's like how they use to justify slavery in the south when it was legal at the time. If Steve wanted it bad enough he could of brought assembly jobs back to the USA, but like paying their fair share of taxes they found a loop hole bigger than the one that is at the center of Apple's 15 billion dollar future (one ring to rule them all) HQ.
Also, I find the sudden appearance of the article in the NY Times amusing considering the deep ocean of trouble their owner, Rupert Murdoch, is currently floundering (with regards to the wiretap scandal in England).
The sentence for a crime of ignorance of this magnitude should be to read history. (Ayn Rand does not write history.)
Duhigg is not a socialist, or a leftist. He is a yuppie bleeding-heart sleaze. Mike Daisey is not a leftist or a socialist. He is a yuppie bleeding-heart sleaze.
If you ever use the word "socialist" in this forum again, I'm going to re-quote this screaming, honking misunderstanding of American media history, of American history, of yours.
Show me just ONE instance where Apple hasn't paid every single cent of the taxes that they were legally obligated to pay. Maybe then I'll waste my time trying to educate you as to why Apple products are mostly manufactured in China, since you obviously haven't been able to figure it out for yourself.
What proportion of Apple's operating budget is spent in California? Perhaps that would make a good basis for computing the taxes they should pay on their profits.
Just a thought.
And this is why, the problem will never be fixed.
If California ever tried to make Apple (or any of the other big hi-tech companies) pay more, they would simply pack up and move to a different location. No lawmaker is brave enough for that so corporations will continue to pay very little taxes.
It's like how they use to justify slavery in the south when it was legal at the time. If Steve wanted it bad enough he could of brought assembly jobs back to the USA, but like paying their fair share of taxes they found a loop hole bigger than the one that is at the center of Apple's 15 billion dollar future (one ring to rule them all) HQ.
Dear Mr. Commodification,
Those jobs never existed in the U.S.
EVER.
There never, ever was a microelectronics industry in the U.S., now was there? Did you ever buy an American-made solid-state TV? A video camera? A digital camera? A VCR? A Walkman? A transistor radio? The ecosystem to produce those things has been in Asia for two generations. All the thousands of little-bitty components are made there, aren't they?
You could not produce these things in the U.S. any more than China could produce 747s from scratch. Even if Steve Jobs were running the show.
It's like how they use to justify slavery in the south when it was legal at the time. If Steve wanted it bad enough he could of brought assembly jobs back to the USA, but like paying their fair share of taxes they found a loop hole bigger than the one that is at the center of Apple's 15 billion dollar future (one ring to rule them all) HQ.
You keep saying Apple isn't paying their fair share of taxes but never provide or cite any proof. Show me just ONE instance where Apple hasn't paid every single cent of the taxes that they were legally obligated to pay.
FIRST You can't bring back assembly jobs when they were not here to start with. Steve didn't create assembly jobs here because he/Apple wanted products that hit certain price points with profit margins that were not and are not possible in the present day USA.
Which company is manufacturing or assembling successful smartphones or successful tablets in the USA? Is there such a company?
I love the word choice here: "sidestepping"...one poster uses the word "dodge".
While both technically correct these terms clearly have a pejorative tone.
Apple is not doing anything wrong. They are doing everything they can (and undoubtedly have a legal responsibility to do for their shareholders) to legally pay the least amount of taxes possible in order to retain as much of the money they've earned for their shareholders and/or to invest in future production and growth.
Good for them. Keep it up Apple! You have no reason to apologize.
Exactly...
Why Apple finds it necessary to defend themselves publicly against these socialist mouthpieces (Mike Daisey, NY Times) is beyond me. They should just call them up individually late at night, like Steve used to do, and berate them until they cry "Uncle"!
Agree. Apple used to be seem arrogant by virtue of its silence when it should speak out or respond. But it seems to be speaking out too often.
