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UK regulator investigating '4G' advertising of Apple's new iPad

post #1 of 52
Thread Starter 
The U.K. Advertising Standards Authority is said to have taken issue with Apple's advertising of the new iPad as a "4G" device, even though it is not compatible with long-term evolution networks in the country.

As a result, the authority has widened an inquiry into advertising of the third-generation iPad, even after Apple amended claims about the device's 4G capabilities, according to the BBC. The regulator has reportedly received dozens of complaints from customers related to the lack of 4G service on the latest iPad.

The authority began looking into the matter in the U.K. earlier this month after some users complained that Apple's advertising of the new iPad was misleading. Apple was accused of touting the device as being 4G-capable despite its inability to interface with LTE networks in countries outside of North America.

After the ASA previously approached Apple, the company removed references to 4G from its website, and also edited a video that talked about 4G LTE connectivity. But the U.K. Apple Store still advertises the cellular-capable model as "Wi-Fi + 4G."

"Connects to the Internet over Wi-Fi and fast mobile data networks. For service from a wireless carrier, sign up for a simple, month-by-month plan on your iPad and cancel anytime without penalty," the product description reads. A footnote under the 4G LTE iPad models reads: "This model can roam worldwide on fast mobile data networks, including HSPA, HSPA+ and DC-HSDPA."

LTE


That's considerably different from Australia, where Apple updated its online store to further clarify that the new iPad is not compatible with 4G LTE networks in that country. That change was made after the Australian government accused Apple of "misleading" customers with the advertising of the new iPad.

"This product supports very fast cellular networks. It is not compatible with current Australian 4G LTE networks and WiMAX networks," the Australian Apple store reads. "For service from a wireless carrier, sign up for a simple, month-by-month plan on your iPad and cancel anytime without penalty."

Such changes have not been made in the U.K., where the ASA said it continues to receive "potentially problematic" complaints from consumers who feel they were misled by Apple's advertising of the new iPad as "Wi-Fi + 4G."

"It appears that the problem claims we asked Apple to remove are still appearing," the regulator said. "We will investigate these new complaints."
post #2 of 52
What an unnecessary mess. Would it have been that difficult or costly to make sure devices sold outside North America didn't reference 4G online or on the product packaging?
post #3 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

What an unnecessary mess. Would it have been that difficult or costly to make sure devices sold outside North America didn't reference 4G online or on the product packaging?

 

Would it have been that difficult or costly to make sure devices sold outside North America have a chip that works with the local 4G networks?

post #4 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

 

 

Would it have been that difficult or costly to make sure devices sold outside North America have a chip that works with the local 4G networks?

 

Would it have been that difficult or costly to make sure Networks use the same standards that work with all devices? :) 

post #5 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by philipbowman View Post

 

 

Would it have been that difficult or costly to make sure Networks use the same standards that work with all devices? :) 

 

Obviously, yes.

post #6 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

 

 

Would it have been that difficult or costly to make sure devices sold outside North America have a chip that works with the local 4G networks?

 

 Given that there is no 4G network at all here in the UK, yes, I'd say it would have been pretty difficult!

post #7 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The U.K. Advertising Standards Authority is said to have taken issue with Apple's advertising of the new iPad as a "4G" device, even though it is not compatible with long-term evolution networks in the country.

 

Maybe that is because there are currently NO LTE SERVICES in the UK.   Ha ha, total fail by the ASA.

 

I hope that they see a proof of purchase from the people levying complaints, otherwise they are open to trolling.

post #8 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newcode View Post

 

 

 Given that there is no 4G network at all here in the UK, yes, I'd say it would have been pretty difficult!

 

That's too bad for the UK.

 

One would think some tiny effort could have been made to ensure compatibility with the existing 4G networks in continental Europe or Australia though...

post #9 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

What an unnecessary mess. Would it have been that difficult or costly to make sure devices sold outside North America didn't reference 4G online or on the product packaging?

 

Would it have been that difficult for people to read the specs of the product they are buying before spending money?

Apple quite clearly advertises the capabilities of the product. And they are quite clear that they don't offer LTE in the UK. Why are regulators spending so much time and money protecting stupid, lazy consumers?

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post #10 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

 

Why are regulators spending so much time and money protecting stupid, lazy consumers?

 

Could it be because consumers pay their salaries?

post #11 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

 

 

That's too bad for the UK.

 

One would think some tiny effort could have been made to ensure compatibility with the existing 4G networks in continental Europe or Australia though...

 

 True enough about compatibility with Europe, but I guess it is still a relatively new technology.

 

Hopefully the UK's delay in getting 4G networks will mean that by the time we do get it you won't need a device with a battery the size of the iPad's in order to be able to use it all day...

post #12 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by irnchriz View Post

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The U.K. Advertising Standards Authority is said to have taken issue with Apple's advertising of the new iPad as a "4G" device, even though it is not compatible with long-term evolution networks in the country.

 

Maybe that is because there are currently NO LTE SERVICES in the UK.   Ha ha, total fail by the ASA.

 

I hope that they see a proof of purchase from the people levying complaints, otherwise they are open to trolling.


I think they are referring to the LTE standards that will eventually be introduced, which will be identical to that used in continental Europe and Australia.
post #13 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
Would it have been that difficult or costly to make sure devices sold outside North America didn't reference 4G online or on the product packaging?

 

I sure don't want my car showing me speeds of higher than 35MPH on my speedometer, that's for sure. It's not like it can go faster than that, and it's not like I'll ever be anywhere I can drive faster than that.

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post #14 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CGJ View Post


I think they are referring to the LTE standards that will eventually be introduced, which will be identical to that used in continental Europe and Australia.

 

That's news.  You're saying the European and Australian LTE deployments will use identical tech and frequency bands -- across all of the EU and AUS?  When did that happen?

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post #15 of 52

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

 

Why are regulators spending so much time and money protecting stupid, lazy consumers?

 

 

Originally Posted by DrDoppio 

Could it be because consumers pay their salaries?

 

 

 

 

Could it be because countries want to balance their budget on Apples back?  Whats in your wallet? lol.gif

post #16 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newcode View Post

 

 

 Given that there is no 4G network at all here in the UK, yes, I'd say it would have been pretty difficult!

 

The spectrum range for 4G in the UK has been announced (I believe it's the same as is already being used in Germany), but Apple chose to use an LTE radio which can't access that part of the spectrum. So they could have done it, but they chose not to. 

post #17 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post
The spectrum range for 4G in the UK has been announced (I believe it's the same as is already being used in Germany), but Apple chose to use an LTE radio which can't access that part of the spectrum. So they could have done it, but they chose not to. 

 

No, they couldn't have. I'm pretty sure chips that cover the entire range don't exist.

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post #18 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I sure don't want my car showing me speeds of higher than 35MPH on my speedometer, that's for sure. It's not like it can go faster than that, and it's not like I'll ever be anywhere I can drive faster than that.

 

 

 

That makes no sense whatsoever. 

post #19 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by newcode View Post

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

 

 

Would it have been that difficult or costly to make sure devices sold outside North America have a chip that works with the local 4G networks?

 

 Given that there is no 4G network at all here in the UK, yes, I'd say it would have been pretty difficult!


There are no networks that reach the accepted minimum speeds to be called 4G? Or are you considering LTE and 4G to mean the same thing and since there's no LTE you say there are no 4G nets.

Apple has been pretty clear about where LTE works and they are calling it the iPad WiFi + LTE. So the question then becomes if there's non LTE 4G service available in the UK under accepted standard definitions and are the carriers and Apple correctly educating users about the distinctions. If there is and no one is telling customers information against those definitions then the issue isn't Apple but user ignorance. That said, Apple is great about letting you return those iPads with no open box fee and I'm sure those Consumer Protection laws would keep a carrier from denying you a return or charging you some crazy fee. So if you insist your iPad can do LTE everywhere and it can't, return it.
post #20 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post
The spectrum range for 4G in the UK has been announced (I believe it's the same as is already being used in Germany), but Apple chose to use an LTE radio which can't access that part of the spectrum. So they could have done it, but they chose not to. 

 

No, they couldn't have. I'm pretty sure chips that cover the entire range don't exist.


Reply folks will give you then: then Apple should have put in more chips. Course it will be unacceptable for the battery to be one half of one second less in life, for the iPad to be any thicker or heavier etc. and woe to Apple if they try to raise the price
post #21 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

No, they couldn't have. I'm pretty sure chips that cover the entire range don't exist.

 

Apple sell two different iPad-4G models in the US, each having the appropriate radio for either AT&T or Verizon. It doesn't seem too far fetched to have one or more models that would work with European 4G providers. Yet, Apple has chosen to cut the associated costs and sell worldwide a device that cannot utilize the existing local networks to full capacity.

 

The equivalent in the US would have been to sell iPad 4G with a subscription to the Verizon network, but with an AT&T LTE chip inside.

 

Other companies have released a variety of devices geared to each specific market, at the expense of decreased profit margins due to the associated development and assembly costs.

 

It is clear that Apple cares more about American customers than about European customers. It should not be surprising when the feelings are reciprocal.

post #22 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post
That makes no sense whatsoever. 

 

Then read it again. Or perhaps you need location-relevant formatting. Something that suits your homeland.

 

Woe is me, can't you see

That my great iPad 3-

On whose box has been advertised

Speedy 4G-

Cannot go at that speed, 

'least in MY country.

 

So I took up my arms;

Made myself quite a ruckus.

On the forums and sites said,

"I'll kick Apple's tuchus!

How dare they sell me something
I cannot use (well, except that I

couldn't have anyway), boo?!"

 

So I went to these sites

And they made me confused

They said, "go back and read

All the words Apple used

To describe its 4G."

So I went and I looked.

What I saw made me think that

Apple was quite crook'd.

 

"Works on Telus and Bell, 

ATT and Verizon,

And on Rogers

If travel is on your horizon."

"How dare they," said I,

through my uncontrolled rage,

"I've no plans to hop 'cross the Pond for a day!"

 

I went back to those sites,

A smile 'pon my lips,

Expecting to give them

A couple of tips,

When a man came along,

A regular user

Whose words showed that he was

Indeed quite a bruiser

 

Said he, "Look, you fools,

Despite all your noise

You're making yourselves

Look like infantile boys

By saying your iPads 

Are like big-wheel trikes

That can't drive on roads 

Fast as real motorbikes."

 

"Your analogies," said the guy on the forum,

"Are quite fragile, pathetic,

And show no decorum.

Here's a better one now,

More accurate, too."

And for some reason his text

was now colored blue.

 

"Let's look at a sports car,

Oh, say, Lamborghini,

Whose power is not suitable

For a weenie.

This car," said the man,
"Can travel quite fast.

Or so say the dials

That sit in the dash."

 

"This speed, I'm afraid,

Is faster than you

Could possibly drive

(Even 'home to the loo')

On the roads of Her Majesty's Highway today.

To drive at those speeds, you must go away."

 

"Away to the Autobahn,

Or out to Montana,

Or even drive down

To the middle savanna

In Africa where there is 

Wide open space."

 

You will not be driving this car

At full speed in a place

Where the roundabouts force

You to turn all the time."

Was it just me, or had this guy

shifted his rhyme?

 

"Anyway," said the user,

his text back to normal,

"Your logic is flawed, 

Your writing informal.
Your iPad is not limited any more

Than the car in your driveway,

Its power in store."

 

I sat back from my screen

And read over his words

Again and again

Just because I could.

But did he make sense?
It's not my place to say.

 

For I'm not the one writing this,

That honor goes to the man

Whose analogy lies up above

And who DIDN'T pull it from his

Gruvvulous-Glove.

 

Make your own decisions,

Ones based in fact,

Not this abject nonsense

You pull from your sack

Oh so often on forums

Opposed to your cause.

 

'Cause trolling is nothing, nay, NOTHING but flaws.

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post #23 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

The equivalent in the US would have been to sell iPad 4G with a subscription to the Verizon network, but with an AT&T LTE chip inside.


Which they don't do, first because they don't sell any iPads with a subscription and second because there isn't such a thing as an AT&T LTE iPad. But there is an AT&T 4G iPad. Heck in some areas that GSM 3G fallback in the Verizon iPad will get 4G speeds same as the GSM iPhones

The issue here is one of language. LTE and 4g are not the same thing under the current international naming standard. Has the UK barred use of that standard and set a rule that in fact only LTE can be called 4G. Probably not. So are there any carriers that provide the qualifying speeds to be called 4G, under the accepted standard, and do they service the iPad. If yes then Apple isn't the issue. User noneducation and ignorance is the issue. And while it serves Apple to help clear up that ignorance as part of their customer service, it's not a legal issue worthy of fines etc.
post #24 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post


Which they don't do, first because they don't sell any iPads with a subscription and second because there isn't such a thing as an AT&T LTE iPad. But there is an AT&T 4G iPad. Heck in some areas that GSM 3G fallback in the Verizon iPad will get 4G speeds same as the GSM iPhones
The issue here is one of language. LTE and 4g are not the same thing under the current international naming standard. Has the UK barred use of that standard and set a rule that in fact only LTE can be called 4G. Probably not. So are there any carriers that provide the qualifying speeds to be called 4G, under the accepted standard, and do they service the iPad. If yes then Apple isn't the issue. User noneducation and ignorance is the issue. And while it serves Apple to help clear up that ignorance as part of their customer service, it's not a legal issue worthy of fines etc.

 

Yeah, those are details that make my example less than perfect, but you maybe get the idea.

 

It isn't an issue of advertising, even though that's the only thing that local legislations can complain about. The real issue is technological -- the lack of appropriate radios in the device. This is really an issue of caring about details and wanting to deliver the best user experience -- in this case, Apple is falling short.

 

The normal customer reaction should be, if you want a third generation iPad outside America, get a WiFi one instead of paying for a radio you aren't going to use. 

post #25 of 52

What you mean I dont need my Robotics modern any more there is more in the UK than 56k?????

post #26 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

 

That makes no sense whatsoever. 

 

Of course it does - just like it did the last few times it was explained to you.

 

The analogy is a sports car that has a dual turbo V12 engine rated at 800 HP and with a top speed of 210 mpg. If you live and drive in NYC and never leave the city, there's no way you can possibly use that car's performance. 

If you leave NYC, there are a few locations where you can use that speed (albeit not legally on the roads in the US and not very practically even in countries where there is no speed limit). The performance is available, though, and if you have a situation that demands it, the car can provide it. The automaker specifically tells you that you can not achieve speeds of 210 mph in a crowded city.

The situation is identical to the 4G iPad. The device is fully capable of 4G (either LTE or HSPA+ by international standard definitions). If you go somewhere with an appropriate LTE or HSPA+ network, the iPad supports it*. Even in the UK, it supports HSPA+ which is classified as 4G.

So why should it be illegal?


 

* Australia is a minor exception in that they have a legal definition of 4G which does not include HSPA+. So there's at least a weak argument there (although the courts should throw it out because Apple is using a standard international definition).

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post #27 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

 

 

Of course it does - just like it did the last few times it was explained to you.

 

The analogy is a sports car that has a dual turbo V12 engine rated at 800 HP and with a top speed of 210 mpg. If you live and drive in NYC and never leave the city, there's no way you can possibly use that car's performance. 

If you leave NYC, there are a few locations where you can use that speed (albeit not legally on the roads in the US and not very practically even in countries where there is no speed limit). The performance is available, though, and if you have a situation that demands it, the car can provide it. The automaker specifically tells you that you can not achieve speeds of 210 mph in a crowded city.

The situation is identical to the 4G iPad. The device is fully capable of 4G (either LTE or HSPA+ by international standard definitions). If you go somewhere with an appropriate LTE or HSPA+ network, the iPad supports it*. Even in the UK, it supports HSPA+ which is classified as 4G.

So why should it be illegal?


 

* Australia is a minor exception in that they have a legal definition of 4G which does not include HSPA+. So there's at least a weak argument there (although the courts should throw it out because Apple is using a standard international definition).

 

The car analogy is flawed. Just imagine that in your example there's another car that can drive at top speed inside the city.

post #28 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post
That makes no sense whatsoever. 

 

Then read it again. Or perhaps you need location-relevant formatting. Something that suits your homeland.

 

Woe is me, can't you see

That my great iPad 3-

On whose box has been advertised

Speedy 4G-

Cannot go at that speed, 

'least in MY country.

 

So I took up my arms;

Made myself quite a ruckus.

On the forums and sites said,

"I'll kick Apple's tuchus!

How dare they sell me something
I cannot use (well, except that I

couldn't have anyway), boo?!"

 

So I went to these sites

And they made me confused

They said, "go back and read

All the words Apple used

To describe its 4G."

So I went and I looked.

What I saw made me think that

Apple was quite crook'd.

 

"Works on Telus and Bell, 

ATT and Verizon,

And on Rogers

If travel is on your horizon."

"How dare they," said I,

through my uncontrolled rage,

"I've no plans to hop 'cross the Pond for a day!"

 

I went back to those sites,

A smile 'pon my lips,

Expecting to give them

A couple of tips,

When a man came along,

A regular user

Whose words showed that he was

Indeed quite a bruiser

 

Said he, "Look, you fools,

Despite all your noise

You're making yourselves

Look like infantile boys

By saying your iPads 

Are like big-wheel trikes

That can't drive on roads 

Fast as real motorbikes."

 

"Your analogies," said the guy on the forum,

"Are quite fragile, pathetic,

And show no decorum.

Here's a better one now,

More accurate, too."

And for some reason his text

was now colored blue.

 

"Let's look at a sports car,

Oh, say, Lamborghini,

Whose power is not suitable

For a weenie.

This car," said the man,
"Can travel quite fast.

Or so say the dials

That sit in the dash."

 

"This speed, I'm afraid,

Is faster than you

Could possibly drive

(Even 'home to the loo')

On the roads of Her Majesty's Highway today.

To drive at those speeds, you must go away."

 

"Away to the Autobahn,

Or out to Montana,

Or even drive down

To the middle savanna

In Africa where there is 

Wide open space."

 

You will not be driving this car

At full speed in a place

Where the roundabouts force

You to turn all the time."

Was it just me, or had this guy

shifted his rhyme?

 

"Anyway," said the user,

his text back to normal,

"Your logic is flawed, 

Your writing informal.
Your iPad is not limited any more

Than the car in your driveway,

Its power in store."

 

I sat back from my screen

And read over his words

Again and again

Just because I could.

But did he make sense?
It's not my place to say.

 

For I'm not the one writing this,

That honor goes to the man

Whose analogy lies up above

And who DIDN'T pull it from his

Gruvvulous-Glove.

 

Make your own decisions,

Ones based in fact,

Not this abject nonsense

You pull from your sack

Oh so often on forums

Opposed to your cause.

 

'Cause trolling is nothing, nay, NOTHING but flaws.

 

That makes even less sense in the context.

post #29 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

The situation is identical to the 4G iPad. The device is fully capable of 4G (either LTE or HSPA+ by international standard definitions). If you go somewhere with an appropriate LTE or HSPA+ network, the iPad supports it*. Even in the UK, it supports HSPA+ which is classified as 4G.

So why should it be illegal?


 

* Australia is a minor exception in that they have a legal definition of 4G which does not include HSPA+. So there's at least a weak argument there (although the courts should throw it out because Apple is using a standard international definition).

 


...and so is Sweden who also has a 4G LTE network that Apple doesn't offer compatibility with. Nor Russia. Nor South Korea. Nor Japan. Nor any 4G LTE network outside of North America. There's a coverage map here if you have any interest in knowing where Apple's 4G LTE capabilities aren't really 4G LTE compatible on established networks.

http://ltemaps.org/

 

I don't think most are claiming it's illegal for Apple to advertise worldwide 4G LTE compatibility. Instead the claim is Apple misleading  buyers.

 

FWIW, your car analogy is still poor IMO. I'm surprised you haven't come up with a better one rather than continuing to drag that one out. Analogies are a very difficult way to support an argument anyway.

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post #30 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

 

That makes no sense whatsoever. 

 

Of course it does - just like it did the last few times it was explained to you.

 

The analogy is a sports car that has a dual turbo V12 engine rated at 800 HP and with a top speed of 210 mpg. If you live and drive in NYC and never leave the city, there's no way you can possibly use that car's performance. 

If you leave NYC, there are a few locations where you can use that speed (albeit not legally on the roads in the US and not very practically even in countries where there is no speed limit). The performance is available, though, and if you have a situation that demands it, the car can provide it. The automaker specifically tells you that you can not achieve speeds of 210 mph in a crowded city.

The situation is identical to the 4G iPad. The device is fully capable of 4G (either LTE or HSPA+ by international standard definitions). If you go somewhere with an appropriate LTE or HSPA+ network, the iPad supports it*. Even in the UK, it supports HSPA+ which is classified as 4G.

So why should it be illegal?


 

* Australia is a minor exception in that they have a legal definition of 4G which does not include HSPA+. So there's at least a weak argument there (although the courts should throw it out because Apple is using a standard international definition).

 

No automaker advertises, in the product name, fer chissakes, that their car is capable of 210 MPH. 

 

What you are searching for is something named the  "Ultralightweight sports car" which says in fine print that you need to weigh it on the Moon. 

post #31 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

 

 

No automaker advertises, in the product name, fer chissakes, that their car is capable of 210 MPH. 

 

What you are searching for is something named the  "Ultralightweight sports car" which says in fine print that you need to weigh it on the Moon. 

 

Do you think you could come up with any more ridiculous analogy?

The owner of a sports car can not take it to the moon, so your analogy makes zero sense - like 99.999% of what you post. 

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post #32 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

 

 

No automaker advertises, in the product name, fer chissakes, that their car is capable of 210 MPH. 

 

What you are searching for is something named the  "Ultralightweight sports car" which says in fine print that you need to weigh it on the Moon. 

 

Do you think you could come up with any more ridiculous analogy?

The owner of a sports car can not take it to the moon, so your analogy makes zero sense - like 99.999% of what you post. 

 

To the average buyer, transcontinental travel to use an advertised feature may as well be intergalactic travel to use an advertised feature.

 

What if Apple called it the "iPad Free Food For Life"*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Free food available in Rwanda if you have been certified by the local warlord.

post #33 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


 

* Australia is a minor exception in that they have a legal definition of 4G which does not include HSPA+. So there's at least a weak argument there (although the courts should throw it out because Apple is using a standard international definition).

 

There is NO standard international definition. That is a big part of the problem. There is a guideline that can be interpreted to allow HSPA+ and LTE  to be 4G but nothing more. In fact none of them are REALLY 4G. Only LTE-Advanced is. LTE is truly 3.9G

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post #34 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

 

 


...and so is Sweden who also has a 4G LTE network that Apple doesn't offer compatibility with. Nor Russia. Nor South Korea. Nor Japan. Nor any 4G LTE network outside of North America. There's a coverage map here if you have any interest in knowing where Apple's 4G LTE capabilities aren't really 4G LTE compatible on established networks.

http://ltemaps.org/

 

I don't think most are claiming it's illegal for Apple to advertise worldwide 4G LTE compatibility. Instead the claim is Apple misleading  buyers.

 

FWIW, your car analogy is still poor IMO. I'm surprised you haven't come up with a better one rather than continuing to drag that one out. Analogies are a very difficult way to support an argument anyway.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe View Post

 

 

There is NO standard international definition. That is a big part of the problem. There is a guideline that can be interpreted to allow HSPA+ and LTE  to be 4G but nothing more. In fact none of them are REALLY 4G. Only LTE-Advanced is. LTE is truly 3.9G

 

Wrong. ITC defines 4G to include HSPA+. Since Sweden and most of the other countries listed have HSPA+, they meet the standard international definition of 4G. So unless you live in a country which specifically requires LTE for something to be 4G (with Australia being the only one I can think of), Apple's 4G claim is accurate.

And even in Australia, they explain the technologies they offer and have offered a full refund to anyone who wants it, so there are no damages to speak of.

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Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #35 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

 

 

That's news.  You're saying the European and Australian LTE deployments will use identical tech and frequency bands -- across all of the EU and AUS?  When did that happen?

 

In Europe, three frequency bands are foreseen (and in several countries already used) for LTE: 800 MHz, 1800 MHz and 2600 MHz. Don't know about Australia, but I think I read they are using the 1800 MHz LTE band, too...

post #36 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

 

 

Apple sell two different iPad-4G models in the US, each having the appropriate radio for either AT&T or Verizon. It doesn't seem too far fetched to have one or more models that would work with European 4G providers. Yet, Apple has chosen to cut the associated costs and sell worldwide a device that cannot utilize the existing local networks to full capacity.


 

It is clear that Apple cares more about American customers than about European customers. It should not be surprising when the feelings are reciprocal.

 

No that's not clear at all. 2/3 of the LTE subscribers in the world are in the US, so they may have added LTE support sooner than they wanted to in order to remain competitive in the US. Since LTE isn't as widespread outside the US, they are not at a competitive disadvantage by not offering LTE. Note that the iPads use old LTE chipsets that draw a lot of power. Apple doesn't use them in the iPhone for that reason. I suspect that the new iPhone and next year's iPad will have LTE chipsets that support more markets.

 

What Apple did do for Europe was add support for HSPA+21 and DC-HSDPA (42MBps), which run about as fast as our LTE networks do here and do use the full capacity of Europe's 3G networks (which earlier devices did not). Note that there are no DC-HSDPA networks in the US.

post #37 of 52

Did the UK regulators find some Samsung, Motorola, HTC 'consumers' that were 'confused' by the 4G wording?  

post #38 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

 

 

 

 

Wrong. ITC defines 4G to include HSPA+. Since Sweden and most of the other countries listed have HSPA+, they meet the standard international definition of 4G. So unless you live in a country which specifically requires LTE for something to be 4G (with Australia being the only one I can think of), Apple's 4G claim is accurate.


And even in Australia, they explain the technologies they offer and have offered a full refund to anyone who wants it, so there are no damages to speak of.

 

I'm not sure whether ITU's definition of '4G' (which they also changed, after some networks wanted to call their faster 3G networks '4G' for marketing reasons) is really relevant in such a case. Here in Germany, as - I think -  in most other countries in Europe, 4G was always synonymous with LTE. This is how the media and the industry has been telling it to the consumers for several years by now, especially when they started service in Germany 1.5 years ago. Whether some marketing definition by ITU is really relevant when it comes to deciding whether an advertisement is misleading, I'm not so sure... 

 

In any case, at least in Germany Apple was always quite clear that with 4G they mean LTE. Their product page for the iPad 4G mentioned '4G LTE' and called 'DC-HSPA' as "the fastest 3G networks in existence". So there is no real question whether Apple was willing to follow "local" definitions. The problem was just, that they initially thought that a footnote saying something like "Availability depends on region and operator" was enough to point the potential customer to the fact that the device only works with LTE on another continent. (They by now have modified their German page several times, now they mention neither 4G nor LTE anymore on their "Features" page...).

 

post #39 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

 

 

 

 

Wrong. ITC defines 4G to include HSPA+.

Source in black and white please? Nowhere does it spell out HSPA+ as 4G. I only see this in a press release, which is hardly some standard.

 

"ITU has determined that “LTE-Advanced” and “WirelessMAN-Advanced” should be accorded the official designation of IMT-Advanced. As the most advanced technologies currently defined for global wireless mobile broadband communications, IMT-Advanced is considered as “4G”, although it is recognized that this term, while undefined, may also be applied to the forerunners of these technologies, LTE and WiMax, and to other evolved 3G technologies providing a substantial level of improvement in performance and capabilities with respect to the initial third generation systems now deployed"

http://www.itu.int/net/pressoffice/press_releases/2010/48.aspx

 


Edited by thataveragejoe - 5/1/12 at 11:06am
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post #40 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by markbyrn View Post

Did the UK regulators find some Samsung, Motorola, HTC 'consumers' that were 'confused' by the 4G wording?  

 

Have you an example of a smartphone or tablet made by these companies, that are marketed as '4G' in the UK? I could be wrong, but I thought all these devices containing '4G' in their name while not supporting LTE were for the US/Canadian market.

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