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U.S. Senator 'livid' about Apple's U.S. tax dealings - Page 2

post #41 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

If it's not constitutional, why has is not come before the Supreme Court and struck down? Am I missing something?

Liberty4All Libertarian wannabe doesn't grasp the Constitution, Madison, Jefferson, Halmilton and the rest intent, who compromised and ratified the US Constitution. If he reads the unabridged Library of America Debates on the US Constitution he'd stop posting junk about unconstitutionality of the Fed, Central Bank, etc. Most importantly, if he can't grasp the US Constitution is a Mutable Document of Laws through it's extension via Amendments then they truly are denser than lead.

post #42 of 95

"to make sure it's fair for everyone" - that never has been the objective of the US Tax Code. The Byzantine pile of manure that masquerades as a tax code is rife with code to help each Congressman's constituency's special interests milk the system dry. Maybe Steve Forbes had the right idea—a flat tax. Everyone pays. No exceptions. No loopholes.

post #43 of 95

'senator livid'  what does that exactly mean???  Is he pissed off somebody else besides him is screwing the tax system????

post #44 of 95

I'm outraged a REPUBLICAN would jump on the anti-business bandwagon like this. This guy needs to be drummed out of office.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #45 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by igxqrrl View Post

 

Romney's tax rate is a result of the lower tax rate applied to capital gains, not overseas tax shelters.

 

Oh, how easy it is to be misinformed.  Let me guess: you're a republican?  As recently as 2010, Romney had money in Swiss bank accounts (UBS is one that we know of) which he only brought back to the U.S. because he had other republicans who wanted to run against him this year out him for shady money.  He probably still has a ton of money in the Cayman Islands, if not other places too.

post #46 of 95

Apple is simply following the laws put in place to their best advantage...just like EVERYONE else in the country.

 

What is reprehensible are people like Obama and Buffett and Biden saying that the wealthy should pay more, yet they still take advantage of all the tax breaks available instead of paying the higher rate that they believe is "patriotic".

 

As an aside, what bothers me as an Apple shareholder is not their making use of available tax "loopholes" (which is simply saying, the tax code), rather it is that by refusing to just pay the repatriation taxes now, they have blown the opportunity to buy back an enormous number of shares at ridiculously cheap prices.  If they had just paid the tax and done the buyback, shareholders would be much better off.

post #47 of 95

Quote:

 

Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

 

Sadly, with the corrupt bunch of morons in government at the moment (on both sides of the aisle), that is a long way from happening.

 

I'm not sure why I thought these forums would be a forum for reasonable, factual discourse. 

 

Case in point: calling everyone single person in the American government "morons."

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd_in_sb View Post

He's livid yet everything that Apple is doIng is 100% legal and common. What a dork.

 

 

Really? 100%? So Dateline had absolutely no reason to air an entire episode on Apple's offshore manufacturing partners?

 

Apple could be under investigation for supporting mass murder and I feel like people who read AppleInsider would be like, "Well, it's not THAT many people. People die all the time. . . ."

 

Face it! Apple does bad stuff sometimes! Yes! It's probably true!

post #48 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post

Another Dork on the hill using poor facts from an article by a new york rag circling the rim as it gets flushed into irrelevance.

Is it too much to ask fo a US Senator to do a little research beyond reading an article in a newspaper that lost its last shred of credibility more than 10 years ao.
post #49 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by emoeric87 View Post

I'm not sure why I thought these forums would be a forum for reasonable, factual discourse. 

Case in point: calling everyone single person in the American government "morons."

 



Really? 100%? So Dateline had absolutely no reason to air an entire episode on Apple's offshore manufacturing partners?



 



Apple could be under investigation for supporting mass murder and I feel like people who read AppleInsider would be like, "Well, it's not THAT many people. People die all the time. . . ."



 



Face it! Apple does bad stuff sometimes! Yes! It's probably true!



What on earth are you talking about? By the way thanks for citing the only major news organization that is less credible than the New York Times.
post #50 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by BUSHMAN4 View Post

'senator livid'  what does that exactly mean???  Is he pissed off somebody else besides him is screwing the tax system????

Can't screw a system you are exempt from 1smile.gif
post #51 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacHelpDesk View Post

"to make sure it's fair for everyone" - that never has been the objective of the US Tax Code. The Byzantine pile of manure that masquerades as a tax code is rife with code to help each Congressman's constituency's special interests milk the system dry. Maybe Steve Forbes had the right idea—a flat tax. Everyone pays. No exceptions. No loopholes.

 

Actually, Forbes was close, but missed by a bit.

If I were doing it, I'd eliminate all deductions. First $50 K of income would be exempt. Next $200 K taxed at one rate (perhaps 15%). Anything above that at a higher rate (perhaps 25%). With elimination of all deductions, those rates would probably generate revenue at least equal to the current mess - but save billions of dollars on enforcing compliance. Everyone would be allowed to earn enough to take care of the necessities of life before taxes kick in (and with the current deductions, few people earning under $50 K are paying much, if any, in taxes, anyway).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

It is a very complicated convoluted mess, and intentionally so on the government's part. But as Irwin Schiff would say, the laws are ok, it is truly voluntary, but it is illegally enforced. Up until 1913, there was no Income Tax, funny, the same year Income Tax was created, the Federal Reserve was also inaugurated -- YES THERE IS A CORRELATION!
Watch the videos and read the PDF book the Federal Mafia, and most all your questions will be answered. You may need to read and watch multiple times to get all the meaning, due to the scope of the graft deception known as the Income Tax and separate Wage Tax (withholding, which is also voluntary).
It is great that you have a healthy curiosity, so keep asking questions, and you will find the answers! It comes down to the fact that the law (16th Amendment which was not even legitimately passed), but even so it is still voluntary, so the laws are ok. The rub is that it is illegally enforced which makes it unconstitutional, and that would have to be the challenge to the Supreme Court.

 

Just one minor problem with that. The Constitutionality of the income tax and its enforcement has been firmly established and affirmed by the Supreme Court. Maybe you've heard of them.

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post #52 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

Perhaps they can take a leaf from Apple's book and charge a flat 30% tax on everything. The statute would be staggeringly small and would not favour one type of income over another. Half the reason for Congress existing would be eliminated.

If you mad it 30% of everything you make over 20k it would be all good. I am not suggesting a deduction. Everyones first 20k shols be tax free. Otherwise you make it impossible for people to save enough to build a meth lab.
post #53 of 95

Companies can't just 'move to another country' if we reform the tax code, America is one of the biggest markets in the world and no company is going to skip an opportunity to make more money, regardless what they are taxed. If there's profit in it for them, they'll stay.

post #54 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

 

Actually, Forbes was close, but missed by a bit.

If I were doing it, I'd eliminate all deductions. First $50 K of income would be exempt. Next $200 K taxed at one rate (perhaps 15%). Anything above that at a higher rate (perhaps 25%). With elimination of all deductions, those rates would probably generate revenue at least equal to the current mess - but save billions of dollars on enforcing compliance. Everyone would be allowed to earn enough to take care of the necessities of life before taxes kick in (and with the current deductions, few people earning under $50 K are paying much, if any, in taxes, anyway).

 

 

Just one minor problem with that. The Constitutionality of the income tax and its enforcement has been firmly established and affirmed by the Supreme Court. Maybe you've heard of them.

I would agree that a simple post card calculation like you are advocating is the best first step in getting the country's financial house in order.  It would also be a good idea to create a system of accounting for tracking what is owed to the country from all types of income.  It may shock you to find out that there is no such animal.  A simpler tax code would make it possible to do this.  Complexity of governing systems is even worse than too much government.  It encourages out right graft and theft.  If Congress was just smart enough to figure out that the money trough is getting empty and that only a reset of the system will allow any additional changes to be added to the system with out causing an outright collapse of government.  It is in their best interest to put aside special interests and just create a simple clean system.  As my Mom said,"get the facts first, you can distort them later."  Politicians are a necessary evil that feeds off of money for sale.  There is no more money to sell.  Feed the cow then you can get more milk later.  

post #55 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmvsm View Post

Has this moron been living in a cave or what? The top 25 corps in this country pay less than 4% federal taxes per year due to overseas tax shelters and tax code loopholes. He's just now figuring this out? Yeah right.

Not all big companies cheat/work the system and have empty office or mail boxes for tax purposes.

 

Intel pays 28%.

 

http://xfinity.comcast.net/slideshow/finance-topcompanytaxes/intel/

post #56 of 95

Libertarian in fact.  Are you?  Find out here:

http://www.self-gov.org/quiz

 

mdriftmeyer might want to learn from someone steeped in freedom, law and history, not nationalist skewed views that want to create an illusion that the original intent can change, magically over time.  After all, in order to understand even a mere word, one needs to read the definition of that word in a dictionary of meanings OF THAT TIME!  

 

Judge Andrew Napolitano

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sNWbiAMf80&feature=related

 

Michael Badnarik

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=michael+badnarik%27s+constitution+class+playlist&oq=michael+badnar&aq=2&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_l=youtube.3.2.0l10.167.2860.0.6829.13.13.0.5.5.0.85.564.8.8.0.

 

Rights do not come from government, they are inherent, and freedom, when usurped by government -- must be corrected.  Mind you, the Constitution can surely be refined to further improve freedom protections for We The People.  

 

Are you going to somehow tell us that the general welfare clause authorizes the federal government to engage in transfer payments because you think it is mutable?  If so, I have oceanfront property in Las Vegas for you as well.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Liberty4All Libertarian wannabe doesn't grasp the Constitution, Madison, Jefferson, Halmilton and the rest intent, who compromised and ratified the US Constitution. If he reads the unabridged Library of America Debates on the US Constitution he'd stop posting junk about unconstitutionality of the Fed, Central Bank, etc. Most importantly, if he can't grasp the US Constitution is a Mutable Document of Laws through it's extension via Amendments then they truly are denser than lead.

post #57 of 95
Now you are going to try to school us that the Supreme Court has made all decisions in the best interests of freedom of We The People? Give me a break! Come on, you are smarter than that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Just one minor problem with that. The Constitutionality of the income tax and its enforcement has been firmly established and affirmed by the Supreme Court. Maybe you've heard of them.
post #58 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzz View Post

Apple seems to be the flavour of the month.

 

Right. Congress can't balance the budget or reverse the gleeful deficit spending, but oh, we're going to get "livid" if Apple lawfully pays a lower tax rate.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #59 of 95

Hey, even politicians are jumping on the Apple story click-bait. Would you have read this article if it was about Chuck's Waffles & Anvils? 

post #60 of 95

It's the US banking system vs the corporations.  The corporations win every time.  They go off shore.


Edited by tylerk36 - 5/1/12 at 9:21pm
An Apple man since 1977
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post #61 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I wish we could vote out the entire Congress this political season, and start from scratch.

 

What an arrogant, dysfunctional bunch of losers. And pathetic leeches too.


As tempting as that seems, freshmen congressmen are made to rely more on the lobbyists for research and data than the senior congressmen. It's an unfortunate situation that by the time any congressmen is elected they have had to sell their soul to corporations they need to regulate. The freshman congressmen even more so.

post #62 of 95

These politicians need to actually do their jobs and put the shame on themselves. The lobbyists and accountants and lawyers are doing their job perfectly and within the legal framework of corporate America. If any blame is to be pointed, it's with the tax code, which is largely created AND defined by these outraged politicians. 

post #63 of 95

He's a Republican....actually he's a Republican?  Wait, what?

 

What is he thinking saying these things?  Is he sure he's a Republican?  Doesn't he know his party only cares about the rich and could caree less about America or Americans?

 

So confused...

post #64 of 95
Good luck getting corporations and the 'well-endowed' to be fair with their finances... I don't like these inequalities but then I also know this not going to happen so long as their cronies is at the helm.
post #65 of 95
So if Apple sell iPhone in UK, they would have to pay 20% VAT, then paid another 35% tax on top?
post #66 of 95

With sincere apologies to Julius and Philip Epstein and Howard Koch....

 

 

  • RENAULT SENATOR: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is tax loopholes are going on in here!

 

  • This display of nerve leaves Rick taxpayers at a loss. The croupier lobbyist comes out of the gambling smoke-filled room and up to Renault Senator. He hands him a roll of bills.

 

  • CROUPIER LOBBYIST: Your winnings campaign contribution, sir.

 

  • RENAULT SENATOR: Oh. Thank you very much.

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post #67 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by macinthe408 View Post

Hey, even politicians are jumping on the Apple story click-bait. Would you have read this article if it was about Chuck's Waffles & Anvils? 

 

You mean Chuck's Waffles & Anvils is also suing Apple!?! 

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post #68 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by commoncents View Post

What is reprehensible are people like Obama and Buffett and Biden saying that the wealthy should pay more, yet they still take advantage of all the tax breaks available instead of paying the higher rate that they believe is "patriotic".

100% agree and have been saying sine the "Buffett Rule" first got mentioned that if Buffett, Obama, or anyone else out there REALLY wanted to pay more, they could.

The easy, legal way? Forego itemizing deductions and choose the Standard Deduction ($11,500 this past year I believe) and viola! They would pay a HUGE amount in taxes.

Guessing they don't REALLY want to pay more, just want to stir up political points.

{/rant}
post #69 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksec View Post

So if Apple sell iPhone in UK, they would have to pay 20% VAT, then paid another 35% tax on top?

Apple doesn't pay the VAT, the consumer does. That's why it's bad for corporations selling products to evade the tax rate on earnings that consumers are subject to. Consumers get a high percentage deducted from income tax and then on every product, pay 20% in tax. Apple is only being taxed on their profits, which is the same as consumers being taxed on their earnings. Income tax for UK consumers isn't a flat tax though, the lowest earners can pay under 10%, while people earning say 500k per year can pay 50% income tax (e.g if you make £500k, you pay ~£250k tax).

A UK iPhone costs £500 without a contract. 20% of this (£83) is a tax on the consumer (after deducting this, the remainder is the equivalent price on the US Stores). The remaining £417 goes to Apple. This isn't profit though, just revenue and they tend to make 25% profits on their earnings (deducting parts, R&D, staff, stores, shipping etc) so the profit margin would be £104. Of that profit, they'd pay 24% (it's not 35%) = £25 but they don't, as they use Ireland and others to pay 12.5% or less (£13).

Per product, the consumer pays over 6x more tax than Apple currently pays and they pay their fair share of income tax on their earnings beforehand. Even if Apple paid the proper corporate tax rate, the consumer would pay 3x more tax per product.

To reiterate the point of Apple being the target, it's easy to forget as they have grown wealthy very quickly, but they now make more profit than any company in the world. That puts them in the spotlight for their taxes. While we can easily dismiss the hypocritical musings of politicians, the economy is not in a state where we can dismiss the issue. Money hasn't been destroyed to create this recession, it has just been displaced and it certainly hasn't gone to the lowest earners.
post #70 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

Now you are going to try to school us that the Supreme Court has made all decisions in the best interests of freedom of We The People? Give me a break! Come on, you are smarter than that!

 


Perhaps you've forgotten the Constitution. It lays out the rules for settling disputes and clarifying issues that are uncertain. That mechanism is the Supreme Court. Whether you like their decision or not, the Constitution says that their decision is final (until Congress passes a law and the President signs it).

There's nothing in the Constitution that says that the Supreme court has to decide based on the best interests of freedom.

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post #71 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

Now you are going to try to school us that the Supreme Court has made all decisions in the best interests of freedom of We The People? Give me a break! Come on, you are smarter than that!



( in my best " western drawl"...)
Sir, you're not from around these parts are you?
post #72 of 95
The issue is not the tax rate or loopholes. It is the lack of investment opportunities in the USA. Tech companies invest in R&D or expensive manufacturing plants. With the low education levels found in the USA and resulting low job skills, coupled with a pretty expensive workforce (benefits paid by the employer rather than the state, poor work ethic, too busy with personal business while on the job), investments take place outside the USA. That's where the money is needed. The USA is one of very few countries that tax overseas earnings. Any attempt to "tighten" the tax code will simply chases more countries offshore. Either the USA get's competitive or it will continue to lose jobs.
post #73 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Apple doesn't pay the VAT, the consumer does. That's why it's bad for corporations selling products to evade the tax rate on earnings that consumers are subject to. Consumers get a high percentage deducted from income tax and then on every product, pay 20% in tax. Apple is only being taxed on their profits, which is the same as consumers being taxed on their earnings. Income tax for UK consumers isn't a flat tax though, the lowest earners can pay under 10%, while people earning say 500k per year can pay 50% income tax (e.g if you make £500k, you pay ~£250k tax).
A UK iPhone costs £500 without a contract. 20% of this (£83) is a tax on the consumer (after deducting this, the remainder is the equivalent price on the US Stores). The remaining £417 goes to Apple. This isn't profit though, just revenue and they tend to make 25% profits on their earnings (deducting parts, R&D, staff, stores, shipping etc) so the profit margin would be £104. Of that profit, they'd pay 24% (it's not 35%) = £25 but they don't, as they use Ireland and others to pay 12.5% or less (£13).
Per product, the consumer pays over 6x more tax than Apple currently pays and they pay their fair share of income tax on their earnings beforehand. Even if Apple paid the proper corporate tax rate, the consumer would pay 3x more tax per product.
To reiterate the point of Apple being the target, it's easy to forget as they have grown wealthy very quickly, but they now make more profit than any company in the world. That puts them in the spotlight for their taxes. While we can easily dismiss the hypocritical musings of politicians, the economy is not in a state where we can dismiss the issue. Money hasn't been destroyed to create this recession, it has just been displaced and it certainly hasn't gone to the lowest earners.

I was wondering about the reason why a company would locate in Ireland.
Well Great Britain probably realized that this would happen and thus created the VAT... so while they lose out on Income tax, they do get a guaranteed amount at the Cash register...
post #74 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

 

Right. Congress can't balance the budget or reverse the gleeful deficit spending, but oh, we're going to get "livid" if Apple lawfully pays a lower tax rate.

...and doesn't spend enough of the savings on bribery lobbying.

 

I think you left out the senators most important concern.

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post #75 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by haar View Post


I was wondering about the reason why a company would locate in Ireland.
Well Great Britain probably realized that this would happen and thus created the VAT... so while they lose out on Income tax, they do get a guaranteed amount at the Cash register...

 

 

Nothing new for the UK.

 

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post #76 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Shut up and toe the line before we vote you out. Or, better yet, if you're so enraged about this, where have you been for the past FORTY YEARS?!

this is the first time in 40 years that he could name drop Apple and get press for himself. 

 

that said, Apple isn't 'side stepping' any laws. The laws created the loopholes they are using just as probably half the Fortune 500 companies use similar loopholes to reduce their taxes. Folks are jumping on apple because of it's size and the hit fodder but they aren't doing anything new or different than every other company that puts their offices in a state with lower taxes etc. Hell's Bells Amazon has been fighting the definition of 'physical presence' because they don't want to pay sales tax since that's a major reason many folks buy from them and not a local store. But some would say that all online should be sales taxed regardless. And you can bet that Amazon picked where their offices and warehouses are by what areas had the 'best' tax deals

 

I agree with this gentleman that there are some issues with the tax laws and less many of these loopholes are not cool. But to pick on Apple like they are doing something unique is wrong. So is demanding that companies be taxed on money they made outside of the country at the same rate as the money inside the country. Hell, I'm not sure I agree that money from outside the country should be taxed at all. If they made the money in, for example, Ireland then that country can tax it or not as they see fit. The US should basically be hands off that money unless it is merely taxing interest earned because that money then came to a US bank. Or at the most a tiny percent of taxes (like say 1%)

post #77 of 95

Reading this article I would thinking the exact same thing......

post #78 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

Perhaps they can take a leaf from Apple's book and charge a flat 30% tax on everything. The statute would be staggeringly small and would not favour one type of income over another. Half the reason for Congress existing would be eliminated.

Actually if they did that as a sales tax in exchange for dropping all income tax there are a lot of folks that support the idea. The income tax code is as big a mess and there are probably a lot of folks that are not reporting tons of tip and other cash income. But they are buying. Keep some basic items at a lower rate (or even none) like milk, bread, etc but things like cars, HDTVs, computers, even liquor and cigs. Flat rate that stuff at something like 20-30%. A hooker on the corner might not pay her full income taxes cause of the lack of a paper trail but she still has to buy clothes, condoms etc. Same for the drug dealer with his fly car with the new rims or even the illegal immigrant that snuck over the border. 

 

and your Mitt's etc, no more loopholes like setting up a 'company' in the Caymans to funnel money through to pay almost nothing in income taxes. they will get nailed when they buy that new car etc. 

 

does seem like a win-win idea doesn't it


Edited by charlituna - 5/2/12 at 6:31am
post #79 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by emoeric87 View Post

Really? 100%? So Dateline had absolutely no reason to air an entire episode on Apple's offshore manufacturing partners?

 

 

1. Dateline is hardly credible. 

 

2. Apple hasn't done anything illegal, that was their partners. And those same partners work for some 70 other companies that don't see to keep a rats corn hole about what is going on. Probably because they aren't getting called out over it

 

3. Mass murder??? Hyperbole much. You act like Apple has brought back the Nazi camps and is gassing Android users by the scores

post #80 of 95

Don't be 'livid' at Apple, be livid at the US tax code and the whack-job politicians that put it in place.

 

The tax rate in the US should be flat - 15% for everyone (corporations & individuals) across the board regardless of income.  No silliness, no exceptions, etc. etc. etc.  Simple, nothing to deduct, nothing to exempt, nothing to account for.  Tax return form should be the size of a post-card.

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