or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Apple and Samsung ordered to reduce patent claims in IP lawsuits
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Apple and Samsung ordered to reduce patent claims in IP lawsuits

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 
Rival electronics makers Apple and Samsung have again been ordered by a judge to cut down the number of claims they are making against each other in a set of intellectual property lawsuits that will go on trial this summer.

IDG News Service reports that Judge Lucy Koh has given the two companies until Monday to streamline their complaints.

The order, made on Wednesday afternoon, is the second such that Koh has given. The judge warned that the trial, which is currently set for July 30, could be delayed until 2013.

"In a joint statement filed Tuesday in preparation for Wednesday's conference, Apple and Samsung each had offered to drop some patents and claims from the case but said lack of cooperation from the other side prevented greater streamlining," the report read.

Even after winnowing, the two companies had a total of "16 patents, six trademarks, five "trade dress" claims, and an antitrust case, with 37 products accused of violations" involved in the case, according to the publication.

"I think that's cruel and unusual punishment to a jury, so I'm not willing to do it," Koh reportedly said. "If you're going to trial in July, this is not going to be acceptable."

The report went on to note that Apple claimed it "was the only party with an interest in bringing the case to trial on time." The company's attorney reportedly did "most of the pleading" for another opportunity to drop claims.

Earlier this week, Apple filed a request to have the logos on Samsung-branded court televisions obscured from jurors during the upcoming trial. The company has also asked that quotes from co-founder Steve Jobs' biography be excluded from the trial. Samsung has made its own requests. The South Korean electronics maker asked that "Apple related blogs, and articles by non-expert newspaper reporters" be excluded.

The two companies' CEOs are scheduled to meet for court-moderated settlement talks later this month. In preparation for the talks, both parties have been asked to submit a "candid evaluation" of the relative strengths and weaknesses of their claims and defenses.

The legal disagreement between Apple and Samsung encompasses 50 complaints in 10 countries. Apple first sued its rival last April with allegations that Samsung had copied the look and feel of its products.
post #2 of 16
Quote:
I think that's cruel and unusual punishment to a jury, so I'm not willing to do it," Koh reportedly said. "If you're going to trial in July, this is not going to be acceptable.

 

So he's claiming it's wrong to protect all of your IP. Just some of it. 

 

Why's he still in charge?

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
Reply

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
Reply
post #3 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

So he's claiming it's wrong to protect all of your IP. Just some of it. 

 

Why's he still in charge?

This is the most insane thing I've ever heard a judge say (at least since Judge Ito in the OJ Simpson trial).

 

They should file separate lawsuits all in different courts if this judge is going to pull this BS. Apple should insist on a change of venue.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply
post #4 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

So he's claiming it's wrong to protect all of your IP. Just some of it. 

 

Why's he still in charge?

 

 

I'm pretty sure "he" knows what "he" is doing.

 

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
post #5 of 16
Good to see that a judge is considerate of a jury. Unless, of course, they are citizens getting forced to do jury-duty.

Now if only we could get Lucy to do an awful lot of work for the awful lot of money that she makes, instead of trying to cut down the workload...
post #6 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post


I'm pretty sure "he" knows what "he" is doing.

Never question those in charge, right?

Hell, it worked on the Titanic, didn't it?
post #7 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post


Never question those in charge, right?
Hell, it worked on the Titanic, didn't it?

:)

 

On the contrary, always do. I just happen to like this particular decision.

 

The link wasn't meant to boast the judge's credentials, but to inform about the correct pronoun.

post #8 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

Good to see that a judge is considerate of a jury. Unless, of course, they are citizens getting forced to do jury-duty.
Now if only we could get Lucy to do an awful lot of work for the awful lot of money that she makes, instead of trying to cut down the workload...

 

Thing is that the jury have to be able to remember and try to understand all the arguements for the entire case. If it was a non-jury trial then it would not be a problem.

 

And remember that the lawyers have a say in jury selection. As they try to eliminate people with bias (Apple and Android users would be out immediately), it means most left on the jury are not likely to be technically minded. Just look at the comments on this forum over the last 12 months. How many of the technical minded here have sang praises of patent claims that have been thrown out of court or the patents themselves invalidated. And the other way around, patent claims have been won in court despite many here claiming they are worthless.

post #9 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

This is the most insane thing I've ever heard a judge say (at least since Judge Ito in the OJ Simpson trial).

They should file separate lawsuits all in different courts if this judge is going to pull this BS. Apple should insist on a change of venue.
This happens in every single (jury) patent case, unless the parties have proactively reduced their claims to a manageable number. Yes, it sounds odd at first, perhaps even troubling: a patentee cannot assert every claim on the patents it owns? It is being deprived of its property without due process! However, the Federal Circuit has found this practice to pass constitutional muster (specifically an order to reduce claims to a set number), as long as a patentee has the opportunity to argue that additional asserted claims would be necessary.

As a practical matter, the parties will reduce their claims on their own before a jury trial because they want the jury to be able to follow the case. I haven’t read the order, but I suspect that it came to this because each side wanted the other to give up something in return, and they just couldn’t reach a compromise. Now they will have to. Or, they wanted to wait until the last possible minute (e.g., for settlement leverage), and the time has come.
post #10 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nairb View Post

...remember that the lawyers have a say in jury selection...

Actually they have no say in selection -- quite the opposite. A pool is chosen 'at random' from registered voters, drivers license records, etc. and a clerk then chooses from a hat the seating order while a voir dire examination is conducted. This gives the attorneys and prosecutor if criminal case the chance to exclude members they think are biased. There is usually some limit to the number that each side is allowed to exempt. They then seat from 6 to 12 jurors and alternates if the trial is lengthy. (I am sure someone out there will correct me if I missed a detail.)

post #11 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damn_Its_Hot View Post

Actually they have no say in selection -- quite the opposite. A pool is chosen 'at random' from registered voters, drivers license records, etc. and a clerk then chooses from a hat the seating order while a voir dire examination is conducted. This gives the attorneys and prosecutor if criminal case the chance to exclude members they think are biased. There is usually some limit to the number that each side is allowed to exempt. They then seat from 6 to 12 jurors and alternates if the trial is lengthy. (I am sure someone out there will correct me if I missed a detail.)

 

Partially true.
 

In most cases, each attorney gets a certain number of 'free' peremptory rejections. They can reject people for any reason they wish - even choosing to eliminate people who wear blue shirts if they wish.


In addition, they can reject people for cause. If they have reason to believe that an individual is biased or unsuitable for some reason, they can ask for them to be eliminated (but the judge has to agree). There is generally no limit to the number of 'for cause' challenges, although it if gets really extreme, the judge can restrict it.

 

Either way, the attorneys have a great deal of say in jury selection. They don't choose the pool, but they get to restrict people from being seated.  Sometimes that's the most important part of the trial.


And the jury is most commonly 12 individuals with alternates often being selected, particularly if the trial is expected to be lengthy.

"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
post #12 of 16
If someone robs 10 banks, should a judge be allowed to demand 5 of the robbery charges be dropped because it is too much work for a jury?

Please update the AppleInsider app to function in landscape mode.

Reply

Please update the AppleInsider app to function in landscape mode.

Reply
post #13 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_in_sb View Post

If someone robs 10 banks, should a judge be allowed to demand 5 of the robbery charges be dropped because it is too much work for a jury?

 

No. But patent issues are different.

 

First, there is almost never a smoking gun. Every patent issue is a shade of gray. The judge is simply allowing the parties to choose their strongest arguments and fight them. If the companies can choose their strongest arguments, they're really not losing much by having to weed out the weaker ones. Let's say that there are 5 strong arguments and 5 weak ones. Even if they win all of them, the strong ones may get a $10 M award per patent and the weak ones might only get $100 K per patent. So if they win everything, it's $50.5 M in damages vs $50 M. Since the strongest claims are included, the loss is minimal. And, in reality, it's more likely that they'll win 3 of the strong patents and only 1 or 2 of the weak ones - so the difference is even greater.

Second, in most cases, they can refile on the patents that are dropped if they think it's worthwhile. However, that rarely happens because they're allowed to choose which ones to keep. The ones that are dropped are usually pretty weak and not able to stand on their own.

"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
post #14 of 16

Mom twists her neck toward the back seat and snarls, "Don't make me stop this court room!"

 

Greed makes people so very, very stupid.  The pathetic antics of people who've convinced themselves the purpose of life is wealth would be funny if they weren't so destructive.

post #15 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbryanh View Post

Mom twists her neck toward the back seat and snarls, "Don't make me stop this court room!"

 

Greed makes people so very, very stupid.  The pathetic antics of people who've convinced themselves the purpose of life is wealth would be funny if they weren't so destructive.

How does "greed" play here? The subject is patent infringement between businesses.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply
post #16 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post
How does "greed" play here? The subject is patent infringement between businesses.

 

 Perhaps he believes the companies are greedily patenting things to stifle competition.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
Reply

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Apple and Samsung ordered to reduce patent claims in IP lawsuits