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The Hong Kong Solution to Immigration

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 

http://news.yahoo.com/hong-kong-warns-mainlanders-over-emergency-births-193423205.html

 

Our resident Hong Kong resident claims not to be around any more but it is still interesting to look at solutions undertaken by others with regard to solving relevent problems here within the United States.

Quote:

Hong Kong's next leader, chief executive-elect Leung Chun-ying, has said he will ban pregnant mainlanders whose husbands are not from Hong Kong from giving birth in local hospitals next year.

He has also said the children of such women will not be guaranteed residency rights as they have been in the past.

 

This is how a country that, as described by some on here, provides universal health care and a generous safety net, deals with problems of those resources being taken advantage of or exhausted by those outside of the social compact. It bans them outright and declares that their offspring are not guanteed residency rights.

 

What would such actions be called by leftists in the United States, the very same leftists who want universal health care and a well constructed safety net?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #2 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

http://news.yahoo.com/hong-kong-warns-mainlanders-over-emergency-births-193423205.html

 

Our resident Hong Kong resident claims not to be around any more but it is still interesting to look at solutions undertaken by others with regard to solving relevent problems here within the United States.

 

This is how a country that, as described by some on here, provides universal health care and a generous safety net, deals with problems of those resources being taken advantage of or exhausted by those outside of the social compact. It bans them outright and declares that their offspring are not guanteed residency rights.

 

What would such actions be called by leftists in the United States, the very same leftists who want universal health care and a well constructed safety net?

 

One can only imagine, hmm?  The fact is that many nations who are politically much further left than the U.S. have far, far tougher immigration standards.  Yet it seems that the left is committed to open borders and no real plan for immigration.  One can only assume this is about one word:  Votes.   

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post #3 of 30

Hong Kong is being taken over by the Chinese the way the US can't be. They've postponed elections and are seeing their culture dramatically changed. Dolce and Gabanna told it's non Chinese shoppers to not even come into the store; only mainland Chinese were allowed to enter. Call me when this shit goes down in the US. 

"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #4 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Hong Kong is being taken over by the Chinese the way the US can't be.

 

So it's about the number of immigrants is it? If the number of immigrants is small relative to the region's population, it ok to imply that people opposed to this immigration are xenophobic racists, but the the ratios are reversed, it's ok to be "concerned?"

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

They've postponed elections and are seeing their culture dramatically changed.

 

You act like elections should only be about approved voters and that culture is some fixed, unchanging thing. Cultures are always changing. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. Sometimes without any immigration at all.


Edited by MJ1970 - 5/7/12 at 2:16pm

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post #5 of 30

EDIT Correction- I thought I was replying to trumptman here, and then the post was edited. I hope you didn't take offence mj!

 

I often find your posts contrary to reason, but this being posted within a single sentence without the heavily extrapolated explanation, accentuates that.

 

The people of Hong Kong are seeing the power of an undemocratic power mercilessly destroy their liberty, sovereignty and democracy. You see fit to see Americas poorest and most vulnerable citizens to be a fit comparison. How much more grossly inaccurate and insensitive could anyone be? Clearly the Mexican immigrants, in this scenario, would be metaphorically the oppressed not the oppressor.


Edited by Hands Sandon - 5/10/12 at 5:21am
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"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #6 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The people of Hong Kong are seeing the power of an undemocratic power mercilessly destroy their liberty, sovereignty and democracy. You see fit to see Americas poorest and most vulnerable citizens to be a fit comparison. How much more grossly inaccurate and insensitive could anyone be? Clearly the Mexican immigrants, in this scenario, would be metaphorically the oppressed not the oppressor.

 

That you don't see striking parallels between the two situations only demonstrates your poor comprehension. Your characterization of the respective concerns and threats simply betrays your biases.

 

But all that aside the most ironic aspect is your disdain for the big government communist, fascist, socialist oppressor which simply represents the further evolution of the type of government policy you regularly advocate for while arguing on behalf of Hong Kong, one the freest (at least economically) areas on the planet whose trade, taxation, spending and regulatory approaches, if they were proposed for the US, you'd be calling out the warnings of anarchy.


Edited by MJ1970 - 5/7/12 at 2:34pm

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post #7 of 30
Mj, I'm already hardened to your simplistic summary of my views, so these shortsighted attacks aren't going to get you the response your begging for. It's a shame you, with all your intelligence still so happily define things in such hopelessly ignorant, harmfull and simplistic terms. I know you pay a lot of attention to things which can seem obscure at times to people like myself, but by now I would have hoped you know that our goals aren't as far apart as you make out.

Racism is not in my opinion a natural human condition, it only exists because those in positions of authority, from the local to the national level, see a threat or a profit motive to exploit people to believe it is. There's no reason at all in my mind to fall for it, but people do, partly out of self interest and partly out of our natural desire to blame someone else for our own problems to give us a seemingly accessible opportunity to improve circumstances we perceive as being the cause of any difficulties we are struggling with.

The fact is that the people of Hong Kong are being disenfranchised. The Mexican immigrants are being disenfranchised. Trumptmans thread of course has validity in the very loosest of terms,, but it's an insult to suggest that the people of Hong Kong are acting on the same level as some of those in the US.
Edited by Hands Sandon - 5/7/12 at 3:12pm
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #8 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Mj, I'm already hardened to your simplistic summary of my views, so these shortsighted attacks aren't going to get you the response your begging for.

 

Oh dear, the irony. I guess we're even then.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I would have hoped you know that our goals aren't as far apart as you make out.

 

I don't imagine our goals to be all that different, however our proposed means are substantially different.

 

For example I want people to be free, prosperous and happy. I suppose you want the same things (well maybe some people not as free as others...but...).

 

I believe the best and only real path way to the greatest happiness and prosperity for the greatest number is by allowing them to be free to arrange themselves and their exchanges voluntarily as much as possible with the state's only role being the protection of everyone's basic rights of life liberty and property.

 

You believe these goals are achievable through ever increasing levels of government coercion.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Racism iin it in my opinion a natural human indition, it only exists because those in positions of authority, from the local to the national level, see a threat or a profit motive to exploit. There's no reason at all in my mind to fall for it, but people do, partly out of self interest and partly out of our natural desire to blame someone else for our own problems to give us a seemingly accessible opportunity to improve circumstances we perceive as being the cause of any difficulties we are struggling with.

 

I think I'd generally agree with that.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The fact is that the people of Hong Kong are being disenfranchised. The Mexican immigrants are being disenfranchised.

 

The people of Hong Kong are being disenfranchised?! It sounds like that exactly like what they are trying to do to mainland immigrants.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

but it's an insult to suggest that the people of Hong Kong are acting on the same level as those in the US.

 

You're right. It seems they may be acting worse.

 

 

But back to the point of the thread. The question is: If someone in the US proposed similar measures are those being proposed in Hong Kong, what would the reaction be from those who would either turn a blind eye or even support those same actions in Hong Kong?

 

It seems you may have already given us a hint. Apologetics for those trying to control immigration to Hong Kong and sympathy for those trying to immigrate (illegally mind you) to the US.


Edited by MJ1970 - 5/7/12 at 3:41pm

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post #9 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I often find your posts contrary to reason, but this being posted within a single sentence without the heavily extrapolated explanation, accentuates that.

 

The people of Hong Kong are seeing the power of an undemocratic power mercilessly destroy their liberty, sovereignty and democracy. You see fit to see Americas poorest and most vulnerable citizens to be a fit comparison. How much more grossly inaccurate and insensitive could anyone be? Clearly the Mexican immigrants, in this scenario, would be metaphorically the oppressed not the oppressor.

 

Are you claiming the only reason for these HK policies (and presumably you're including other nations as well) is the nature of the immigration?  That's ridiculous.  Try to focus on the point here, Hands.  Hong Kong is not alone in its treatment of immigration, despite being more liberal than the U.S. in many ways.  Many nations restrict the occupation and land rights of immigrants, for example.  Move to London and tell me how easy it is for a non-British citizen to get a job.  From NHS:  

 

 

Quote:
Any non-UK/EEA national seeking entry or permission to remain in the UK for the purpose of employment will normally require a certificate of sponsorship. Certificates of sponsorship are applied for by the employer from the UKBA and will only be granted if the NHS organisation can show that they have been unable to fill the post with an individual from the UK/EEA resident labour market. 

 

So let's address the point here, Hands:  Arizona can't even pass a bill that helps them enforce existing Federal law without the liberals going bonkers.  What do you think the reaction to the above policies would be? 

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post #10 of 30

Begging the question that...

 

a) it's Arizona's job to help enforce federal law

b) the bills proposed actually help with the enforcement

c) the bills don't infringe upon the rights of legal immigrants, residents, and citizens

d) liberals went "bonkers"

e) liberals went "bonkers" because the bill helped enforce federal law  (also, see parts a and b)

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #11 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Hong Kong is being taken over by the Chinese the way the US can't be. They've postponed elections and are seeing their culture dramatically changed. Dolce and Gabanna told it's non Chinese shoppers to not even come into the store; only mainland Chinese were allowed to enter. Call me when this shit goes down in the US. 

 

Where is the proof that the U.S. cannot be "taken over" in this manner? You've not described the manner nor proven your assertion regarding it. Do we note see massive demographic changes in states like California? Are institutions there now addressing multilingual needs due to this radical shift? Have there not been laws and other attempts to manage the drain on public resources and claims on them? This shit has gone down in the U.S. and so take the call.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I often find your posts contrary to reason, but this being posted within a single sentence without the heavily extrapolated explanation, accentuates that.

 

The people of Hong Kong are seeing the power of an undemocratic power mercilessly destroy their liberty, sovereignty and democracy. You see fit to see Americas poorest and most vulnerable citizens to be a fit comparison. How much more grossly inaccurate and insensitive could anyone be? Clearly the Mexican immigrants, in this scenario, would be metaphorically the oppressed not the oppressor.

 

You are claiming that any mainlander that manages to get to Hong Kong is the oppressor and the Hong Kong natives are the oppressed? I want to understand your views on this. Where do you gain the ability to apply the labels in such a manner?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #12 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Where is the proof that the U.S. cannot be "taken over" in this manner?

 

But even more to the point is the question of whether this so-called "taking over" is a bad thing as a matter of fact.

 

I personally have no problems with Mexicans (or anyone else) coming to the US. The more the merrier. That said there may be certain problems with regard to our welfare state being a magnet for those who desire to come for the welfare benefits without working to contribute to the society. The tragedy of the commons and all that.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #13 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Where is the proof that the U.S. cannot be "taken over" in this manner?

 

But even more to the point is the question of whether this so-called "taking over" is a bad thing as a matter of fact.

 

I personally have no problems with Mexicans (or anyone else) coming to the US. The more the merrier. That said there may be certain problems with regard to our welfare state being a magnet for those who desire to come for the welfare benefits without working to contribute to the society. The tragedy of the commons and all that.

 

I have no problem with any immigration from any particular country however I do feel it must be managed so that like with most things in life, you get quality rather than quantity.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #14 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I have no problem with any immigration from any particular country however I do feel it must be managed so that like with most things in life, you get quality rather than quantity.

 

I suspect that if the conditions for living (the so-called "social contract") in the country consisted of:

 

a) you have to work hard

b) you don't get any hand outs

c) when you work hard and are successful you get to keep what you earn and this will be protected by the government

d) there is enormous opportunity for success (in part from the conditions of a, b and c)

 

you're far more likely to attract the quality people anyway.

 

Sure, some freeloaders will still come, but they'll end up getting discouraged by the fact that they actually have to work for their living and leave....or possibly capitulate to, you know, working.

 

P.S. I didn't mean to imply that I thought you were opposed to immigration from any particular place. I was really just addressing the point of the cultural and social "take over"...and on that I agree with you that such a "take over" from people of quality character and ethic is much preferred. That said, I'd argue that the US culture, society (and government) is being "taken over" from within by morally and intellectually bankrupt people anyway.


Edited by MJ1970 - 5/7/12 at 5:38pm

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #15 of 30

You have to put your foot down sometimes or everyone will take advantage of you. I do not blame him at all.

post #16 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Begging the question that...

 

a) it's Arizona's job to help enforce federal law

b) the bills proposed actually help with the enforcement

c) the bills don't infringe upon the rights of legal immigrants, residents, and citizens

d) liberals went "bonkers"

e) liberals went "bonkers" because the bill helped enforce federal law  (also, see parts a and b)

 

A)  Given that they refuse to, and that refusal is directly affecting them, then yes.  

B)  They do...and that enforcing is actually being done by the Feds, not AZ.  

C) They don't.  They allow officers to check immigration status in the course of people committing other crimes.  If the status is an issue, those people are reported to the feds. 

D)  Well given your President and Attorney General sued the state...given the reaction I witnessed on the left....yeah, they did.  Seriously...BR?  Perhaps calling supporters of the bill racists isn't going "bonkers" to you?  

E) I don't know if that's the case or not.  I do know that liberals would "go bonkers" if we had some of the same immigration policies as parts of Europe and Asia.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

You have to put your foot down sometimes or everyone will take advantage of you. I do not blame him at all.

 

Do you care to explain what the hell you're talking about?  

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post #17 of 30

Quote mj1970- 

 

 

"But back to the point of the thread. The question is: If someone in the US proposed similar measures are those being proposed in Hong Kong, what would the reaction be from those who would either turn a blind eye or even support those same actions in Hong Kong?

 

It seems you may have already given us a hint. Apologetics for those trying to control immigration to Hong Kong and sympathy for those trying to immigrate (illegally mind you) to the US. "

~ mj1970

 

You seem to be intentionally missing what's really happening here. Imagine if you can that America's president was unelected and was from Mexico. The people of the US want to be able to vote for their own president but they're not allowed. They're left waiting all the while the prospect of ever having their own elected president get's further and further away. That Mexican president has 1.3 billion people living in a vast country, America has a population of just 7 million people and is thirty times smaller than Maryland. The Mexican president opens the doors to your tiny country and within a few years, 45% of the new births in your country are from Mothers from Mexico, wanting many of the free services available in your country, even though most of them have no intention of ever living there or paying any taxes there. As each year passes the rates of these Mexican births increases. From 2010 -2011 the rate increases by 108%. Growing anger mounts in the US, people are aware that they have very few ways to alter the Mexican governments decisions. Because the people of America are rising up though and speaking out like never before, the Mexican president throws them a bone. He declares that in the future that some of the Mexican mothers who live in Mexico but go to America for the day to give birth and who's father is not an American, will not have free services for life from America.


Edited by Hands Sandon - 5/10/12 at 6:23am
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #18 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

You seem to be intentionally missing what's really happening here. Imagine if you can that America's president was unelected and was from Mexico. The people of the US want to be able to vote for their own president but they're not allowed.

 

How is it "allowed" if their votes are diluted or countered by illegal immigrants voting or by the ballot boxes being stuffed with the voters of Mickey Mouse, Tim Tebow and the dead? Also note that estimates by the government have illegal immigration at 11-12 million in the entire United States but other estimates have it as high as 20 million. Finally those millions are not all uniformly distributed. They are largely in some very large and very blue states with lots of votes for the electoral college.

Quote:
They're left waiting all the while the prospect of ever having their own elected president get's further and further away. That Mexican president has 1.3 billion people living in a vast country, America has a population of just 7 million people and is thirty times smaller than Maryland. The Mexican president opens the doors to your tiny country and within a few years, 45% of the new births in your country are from Mothers from Mexico, wanting many of the free services available in your country, even though most of them have no intention of ever living there or paying any taxes there.

 

You clearly have not been to states like California where the demographic changes have been MASSIVE. You won't walk into a classroom in California now where 75% of the students are not Hispanic. The amount of money sent to Mexico from the United States each year are as large as the entire oil industry of Mexico.

Quote:
As each year passes the rates of these Mexican births increases. From 2010 -2011 the rate increases by 108%. Growing anger mounts in the US, people are aware that they have very few ways to alter the Mexican governments decisions. Because the people of America are rising up though and speaking out like never before, the Mexican president throws them a bone. He declares that in the future that some of the Mexican mothers who live in Mexico but go to America for the day to give birth and who's father is not an American, will not have free services for life from America.

At least in your example the government throws them a bone. In the real example the U.S Justice Department sues states for writing federal immigration law into state law. Then it declares voter ID laws to be civil rights violations. Finally it declares all services still must be paid for without federal compensation for federal mandates.

 

How sad is it that your caricature still isn't as bad as reality?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #19 of 30

@trumptman

 

Most of them are authorised immigrants. You and your fellow countrymen voted for the laws that allowed them to become citizens. If you don't like becoming a minority, consider moving somewhere with more of the people you prefer and vote differently next time. That's a whole lot easier for you to do than it is for a Hong Konger. 

 

Here are a few facts about where you live, from about 2004. I'm sure since then these numbers will have grown considerably-

 

 

"About half of California's children have immigrant parents, and about one seventh have unauthorized parents, in contrast to the nation as a whole, where one-fifth of children have immigrant parents.

 

In Los Angeles, almost two-thirds of children (62 percent) have immigrant parents.

 

Large majorities of children with unauthorized parents are U.S.-born citizens: 68 percent in California and 76 percent in Los Angeles.

 

Almost all unauthorized men work, and labor force participation rates are substantially higher for unauthorized men than for legal immigrant or U.S.-born men.

 

By contrast, labor force participation is much lower for both unauthorized and legal immigrant women than for U.S.-born women, mostly because unauthorized women are more likely to have children."

 

~ http://www.urban.org/publications/411425.html


Edited by Hands Sandon - 5/10/12 at 10:44am
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #20 of 30
Thread Starter 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

@trumptman

 

Most of them are authorised immigrants. You and your fellow countrymen voted for the laws that allowed them to become citizens. If you don't like becoming a minority, consider moving somewhere with more of the people you prefer and vote differently next time.

 

You are incorrect, profoundly so. Laws have been passed against immigration but have been overturned by the courts. Much like how California voted to recognize only traditional marriage, even amending our Constitution to make it so, the courts have prevented this matter, not the majority.

 

It has nothing to do with majority or minority and everything to do with money and resources. That is the crux of the matter in Hong Kong as well. The point is in Hong Kong, they will turn away people and in the U.S. they won't or can't due to the courts.

 

Quote:

 Here are a few facts about where you live, from about 2004. I'm sure since then these numbers will have grown considerably.

 

About half of California's children have immigrant parents, and about one seventh have unauthorized parents, in contrast to the nation as a whole, where one-fifth of children have immigrant parents.

 

Yes but let's make those numbers more understandable. Half have immigrant parents, that means 50%. One-seventh are from parents that are illegal immigrants. As you said the numbers are larger now but this again still minimizes the matter. You have to compare immigrants with immigrants, not compare them to the residents. One-seventh is 14% and 14 over 50 is 28%. That means more than one out of every four immigrants are illegal. That is a massive and problematic level and as you note, the numbers are larger now.

 

Quote:

In Los Angeles, almost two-thirds of children (62 percent) have immigrant parents.

 

Large majorities of children with unauthorized parents are U.S.-born citizens: 68 percent in California and 76 percent in Los Angeles.

 

The point is the comparison to Hong Kong. In the U.S. as you note, the children become citizens and the parents can claim all manner of benefits through them. The children are "entitled" to them and the monies are not considered assigned or spent due to illegal immigrant. That is nonsense. If you receive food stamps because your parents are illegal immigrants, it is illegal immigration that has cost the system. The point is also that in Hong Kong, these children will be denied the automatic citizenship and rights accorded with it.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #21 of 30

Unauthorised immigrants can't get food stamps. They can get food stamps only for their children, if their children are US citizens. I'm sure some of them are though by tricking the system, but as nearly all the males work, that probably won't happen too often where the parents are both together. If they're split up, leaving the mother with the kids, I suspect the mother's forced into breaking the law, but how many of them can get away with that I don't know. Do you?

 

The courts have to follow the constitution. If you propose illegal laws, what do you expect to happen? It's no good breaking the law to deal with people who are breaking the law. No wonder your state is changing so much.


Edited by Hands Sandon - 5/10/12 at 11:28am
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #22 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Unauthorised immigrants can't get food stamps. They can get food stamps only for their children, if their children are US citizens. I'm sure some of them are though by tricking the system, but as nearly all the males work, that probably won't happen too often where the parents are both together. If they're split up, leaving the mother with the kids, I suspect the mother's forced into breaking the law, but how many of them can get away with that I don't know. Do you?

 

The courts have to follow the constitution. If you propose illegal laws, what do you expect to happen? It's no good breaking the law to deal with people who are breaking the law. No wonder your state is changing so much.

 

What are you referring to?  I'm unaware of any laws that are "illegal" in terms of immigration.  Obviously the Constitution has to be followed.  Oh, and by the way...call it what it is:  Illegal immigration. It's not just unauthorized...it's a crime.  

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post #23 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Unauthorised immigrants can't get food stamps. They can get food stamps only for their children, if their children are US citizens. I'm sure some of them are though by tricking the system, but as nearly all the males work, that probably won't happen too often where the parents are both together. If they're split up, leaving the mother with the kids, I suspect the mother's forced into breaking the law, but how many of them can get away with that I don't know. Do you?

 

I specifically noted that the benefits were claimed on behalf of their children and through their children. I'm not alleging fraud so I don't see what point you are trying to make. I simply noted that the costs are there regardless of the status of the person because if an illegal immigrant cannot support their child, then the state still assumes the costs.

 

As for working, while many do they do so without paperwork and without claiming the income in an above board manner. The numbers obviously are high since per the law, they aren't even authorized to work at all. When one out of four seem to get by with no legal means of doing so, then the money clearly has to be coming from somewhere.

Quote:

 

The courts have to follow the constitution. If you propose illegal laws, what do you expect to happen? It's no good breaking the law to deal with people who are breaking the law. No wonder your state is changing so much.

 

The laws are not illegal. The courts are acting above their authority. Think about it for a second. The court ruled that California cound not amend their own Constitution. How can amending the Constitution be unconstitutional?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #24 of 30

California, like you know, can amend it's constitution, it can't violate the rights of others in doing so, hence why prop8 was ruled illegal.

 

If you really want to change things in your state you're going to have to change the laws on how many immigrants you take in legally as well as let stay illegally. It's going to be increasingly difficult though because those with opinions like yours are as a percentage are rapidly diminishing, so you'll be out voted by Hispanics alone in the not too distant future. From a business perspective, they're more likely to speak the language and have cultural ties which will help in their business dealings and many of them will want to swell their numbers as much as possible to give themselves more clout in politics. Really effectively then, you're too late to turn the clock back. My advice is to see how best you can make what you have work and look forward to less hostility.


Edited by Hands Sandon - 5/10/12 at 12:53pm
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #25 of 30

@sdw

 

There was a case where a higher court threw out a lower ruling that would have meant unauthorised immigrants couldn't get reduced tuition fees in California's universities, just like the authorised citizens of California can by being residents of the state. These kinds of illegal practices, just get thrown out and people like trumptman end up getting nowhere.

"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #26 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

California, like you know, can amend it's constitution, it can't violate the rights of others in doing so, hence why prop8 was ruled illegal.

 

This obviously hasn't gone before the Supreme Court and the reasoning on it is so terrible that it is clear lower court judges who support gay marriage are trying to salvage something from it.

 

A Constitution defines rights. You can do whatever you want in the Constitution. Our Constitution banned alcohol and supported slavery until it was changed. Your reasoning puts judges ABOVE the Constitution and certain rights as above even the language of the Constitution itself. That simply isn't true and it is why Prop 8 will eventually be upheld.

Quote:

If you really want to change things in your state you're going to have to change the laws on how many immigrants you take in legally as well as let stay illegally. It's going to be increasingly difficult though because those with opinions like yours are as a percentage are rapidly diminishing, so you'll be out voted by Hispanics alone in the not too distant future. From a business perspective, they're more likely to speak the language and have cultural ties which will help in their business dealings and many of them will want to swell their numbers as much as possible to give themselves more clout in politics. Really effectively then, you're too late to turn the clock back. My advice is to see how best you can make what you have work and look forward to less hostility.

I assure you my opinion isn't diminishing. Most liberal and leftist positions are not supported by the majority and only are kept in place through odd arrangements that funnel disproportionate money and power to very narrow interests. I don't have to turn a clock back because the clock is changing from analog to digital and in a world like California where people are increasingly of mixed ethnicity, no one is going to want to watch a bunch of race hustlers scream racism using a paradigm that no longer exists. California is already only 45% white. Half of that is male. Do you know how ridiculous it will sound to complain that 22% of the population is stopping 78% of the population from achieving their goals and dreams. It will be ridiculous on it's face.

 

Then there is of course the presumption of groupthink which clearly showed it wasn't there or true when each of these measures passed. Prop 8 passed in the very same election that elected Barack Obama as an example. The same type of voters ended Affirmative Action and bilingual education. Those measures don't pass without minority support because there is no white majority.


Edited by trumptman - 5/11/12 at 6:19am

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #27 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

@sdw

 

There was a case where a higher court threw out a lower ruling that would have meant unauthorised immigrants couldn't get reduced tuition fees in California's universities, just like the authorised citizens of California can by being residents of the state. These kinds of illegal practices, just get thrown out and people like trumptman end up getting nowhere.

 

 

What do you mean "these kinds of illegal practices?'  That case has yet to be ultimately decided.  As for the issue itself, you're on the wrong side in my judgment.  Illegal immigrants should not get benefits that even legal, non-California residents can't get.  It's wrong.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #28 of 30

You really hate the Libs I see on each post you create.
 

post #29 of 30

Illegal immigrants should get ZERO and go back where they belong in their own dam country.BORDERS LANGUAGE AND CULTURE.
 

post #30 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

You really hate the Libs I see on each post you create.
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Illegal immigrants should get ZERO and go back where they belong in their own dam country.BORDERS LANGUAGE AND CULTURE.
 

 

 

lol.giflol.giflol.giflol.gif  And I'm the hater?  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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