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HP exec: 'Apple may like to think they own silver, but they don't' - Page 3

post #81 of 165

Wouldn't be touting magnesium over aluminum. Magnesium is softer, more brittle, and has a tendency to bend easier, making aluminum much stronger. A characteristic I'd want in a mobile platform. Magnesium requires a protective coating over it to avoid corrosion where aluminum does not, and the metal itself is less stable than aluminum. Magnesium is also more expensive to produce. So keep talking Stacy.

post #82 of 165
Quote:
"In no way did HP try to mimic Apple" - Stacy Wolff

 

That's probably the most stupid thing being said in this battle between Apple and their followers. Can't believe it.

post #83 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnjnjn View Post

Read my post again, and note for example that I mentioned GPU performance.
J.

I read your post. And I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence that:

1. The GPU in ARM is as fast as the CPU in a MacBook Air - particularly the Ivy Bridge MBAs which will be out any day.

and

2. CPU performance (where ARM lags by more than an order of magnitude) doesn't matter.

If you can prove those two things, then your point would be valid. Until then, you're just another of the mindless trolls throwing out nonsense and hoping no one calls them on it.
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post #84 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


So within 5 generations is now "not far behind"? Amazing.

It's interesting that Microsoft thinks a ARM core running Windows RT as desktop replacement will be just fine.  "Most" consumers seem to just want to know is they can use it to check email, use office, Facebook, use a browser and play a few games. I think its been already proven that most consumers think an iPad does most of these things ok (minus office).  An ARM laptop running Windows RT should fill the gap for many people on the Windows side,  else Microsoft would not do it.  I think an MBA with an ARM for the iOS/OSX side will be just fine as well.  It does not matter that "some" people think the CPU will not be enough. The value proposition of what it will be able to do, speaks louder then what it can't do.  People seem to forget that.  Think about that your iPad can already do?  Even the original iPad 1.

 

As a result, I could care less about the spec debate.  Most consumers don't care about specs. All they want to know is will it do what they want. For most consumers, I think the answer will be yes with a Quad core ARM. For most geeks, who care about running benchmarks and running all their CPU intensive apps then answer will be no. The rest of the world *shrugs* their shoulders and pulls out their credit card. 

 

Consumer will pay attention to chats like this:

http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2012/04/16/announcing-the-windows-8-editions.aspx

"Building for the future?! They should be running around reacting to the present!" -John Moltz
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post #85 of 165

What the hell else was he going to say.

post #86 of 165

It's like PC manufacturers are completely incapable of original thought. Every laptop has to be a cheaper, podgier looking Apple knock off.
 

Mac Pro, 8 Core, 32 GB RAM, nVidia GTX 285 1 GB, 2 TB storage, 240 GB OWC Mercury Extreme SSD, 30'' Cinema Display, 27'' iMac, 24'' iMac, 17'' MBP, 13'' MBP, 32 GB iPhone 4, 64 GB iPad 3

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Mac Pro, 8 Core, 32 GB RAM, nVidia GTX 285 1 GB, 2 TB storage, 240 GB OWC Mercury Extreme SSD, 30'' Cinema Display, 27'' iMac, 24'' iMac, 17'' MBP, 13'' MBP, 32 GB iPhone 4, 64 GB iPad 3

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post #87 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnjnjn View Post

Read my post again, and note for example that I mentioned GPU performance.
J.

Even then the Intel HD 3000 in the Air blows away even the A5x with nearly 20 times the GFLOPS, with fill rates of that are more than double for mpixels/s and or mtriangles/s you are looking at a minmum baseline of about 40x faster. So, sorry you're still far and away from even. Built-in Intel graphics let alone discrete AMD or NVIDIA GPUs.
post #88 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Applelunatic View Post


Even then the Intel HD 3000 in the Air blows away even the A5x with nearly 20 times the GFLOPS, with fill rates of that are more than double for mpixels/s and or mtriangles/s you are looking at a minmum baseline of about 40x faster. So, sorry you're still far and away from even. Built-in Intel graphics let alone discrete AMD or NVIDIA GPUs.

And it is this reason that people do not buy the new iPad "aka iPad 3" vs a MBA?

"Building for the future?! They should be running around reacting to the present!" -John Moltz
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"Building for the future?! They should be running around reacting to the present!" -John Moltz
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post #89 of 165

Does anyone buy HP anymore? Just goes to show the lack of talent in HP exec pool...

post #90 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

 “We think all notebooks will look like these one day.” - Steve Jobs, October 20, 2010, when presenting the new MBA.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Applelunatic View Post


Yes, and he was meaning the size and form factor. Not the apeing of the brushed-metal finish, the nearly identical keyboard and trackpad, etc.


Actually, I think Steve meant that all "MacBooks" will look this way.  So far, he seems to be right.

The PC industry should be ashamed of themselves.  I clearly remembering everyone mocking the MBA's design when it first came out, and now suddenly it's a "natural progression".  Seeing Intel Ultrabook campaign saying it's "Inspired by Intel" is just a cheap-shot at Apple.  They all might as well shut down their R&D departments and just let Apple do all the work for them!

Honestly, I really hope Apple sues the clone-makers into oblivion.  There WILL be people (albeit not too bright people) that will buy an MBA-knockoff ultra book thinking it's just like an MBA and when they same, tired problems surface with low-quality, garbage machines they will conclude that the entire class of thin-and-light laptops (including MBA's) will be junk.

iHaters abound criticized Apple for they "shiny and pretty" products, but now that everyone else is doing it they are nowhere to be found.  What happened iHaters?  World doesn't conform to your beliefs?

post #91 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by snova View Post

It's interesting that Microsoft thinks a ARM core running Windows RT as desktop replacement will be just fine.  "Most" consumers seem to just want to know is they can use it to check email, use office, Facebook, use a browser and play a few games. I think its been already proven that most consumers think an iPad does most of these things ok (minus office).  An ARM laptop running Windows RT should fill the gap for many people on the Windows side,  else Microsoft would not do it.  I think an MBA with an ARM for the iOS/OSX side will be just fine as well.  It does not matter that "some" people think the CPU will not be enough. The value proposition of what it will be able to do, speaks louder then what it can't do.  People seem to forget that.  Think about that your iPad can already do?  Even the original iPad 1.

As a result, I could care less about the spec debate.  Most consumers don't care about specs. All they want to know is will it do what they want. For most consumers, I think the answer will be yes with a Quad core ARM. For most geeks, who care about running benchmarks and running all their CPU intensive apps then answer will be no. The rest of the world *shrugs* their shoulders and pulls out their credit card. 

Consumer will pay attention to chats like this:
http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2012/04/16/announcing-the-windows-8-editions.aspx

That's great and all but the person was claiming ARM was 'close in performance' which is objectively wrong on all counts. Yes, if all you do is basic things you won't notice. Difference but that wasn't what we were disputing against.
post #92 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by snova View Post

And it is this reason that people do not buy the new iPad "aka iPad 3" vs a MBA?

And that has what relevance to what I was reponding to? Oh right, it had none.
post #93 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Applelunatic View Post


That's great and all but the person was claiming ARM was 'close in performance' which is objectively wrong on all counts. Yes, if all you do is basic things you won't notice. Difference but that wasn't what we were disputing against.

close in performance can be read different ways.  Any can turn this into splitting hairs competition.  Do the specs themselves really matter?  Close in performance to me, means "good enough" for what most people want to use it for. 

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post #94 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Applelunatic View Post

 
And that has what relevance to what I was reponding to? Oh right, it had none.

lol.. you obviously did not get the sarcasm.. the point was your response didn't have any relevance either to the typical consumer.  most people don't care about benchmarks.

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post #95 of 165

The Envy Spectre XT; designed by Apple in California, assembled in China, and filled with Window crap.  

post #96 of 165

 

 

Quote:
'Apple may like to think they own silver, but they don't'

 

That may sound like a "double dog dare" to Apple's law team. Someone gonna get their tongue stuck to a flag pole...

"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #97 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmvsm View Post

Wouldn't be touting magnesium over aluminum. Magnesium is softer, more brittle, and has a tendency to bend easier, making aluminum much stronger. A characteristic I'd want in a mobile platform. Magnesium requires a protective coating over it to avoid corrosion where aluminum does not, and the metal itself is less stable than aluminum. Magnesium is also more expensive to produce. So keep talking Stacy.

 

I agree, and was a bit surprised that HP used magnesium. I predict a problem with the hinges.

 

I think Apple's strategy is to get all the "me too" companies firmly committed to the "silver" look, and then switch to carbon fiber, leaving everyone looking dated. Once everyone finally gets on the "Black is Beautiful" bandwagon, Apple will switch to Liquid Metal leaving their competitors once more in the lurch. That's the advantage of being a market leader.

"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #98 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Applelunatic View Post

Not that far behind? A dual-core Cortex-A9 at 1.0 ghz is only 5000 MIPS. Even the dual-core Krait is only 10,000 at 1.5ghz. For perspective a Core i7 2600k is rated at over 128,000 MIPS. That is a huge gap since the CPU is still very much important.

For a fair comparison you must take the number of cores and number of GHz per core into account. The Cortex-A15 for example would be a much better candidate.
Based on your MIPS score for the A9 (do you have a link for that?) this processor is 7000 x 4 x 2.5 = 70,000 MIPS (A15 is per core 40% faster, and has 8 cores instead of 2 and a frequency of 2.5 GHz). If the A15 is made with the same feature size as the Intel processor it can run on the same frequency (of 3.4 GHz) and its performance will even be closer 95.200 MIPS.
So that's not that far behind I would say.

But even if individual ARM CPUs are slower, OS performance (and user experience) gains the most by increasing the number of cores instead of the frequency of only a few. Additionally, GPU cores are as important as the CPU and are currently enormously powerfull in the ARM packages. The combined horsepower should be enough for most computer use, even now.

J.
post #99 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by agramonte View Post

SONY X505 had the wedge design and keyboard long before Apple - 

That's as asinine as the HP rep saying that their product looks like Apple's only because of the silver color. Besides, if you want to play that game, Apple ][ had a wedge. X505 looks like a nice design, but they don't look like any MacBook Air, I don't see any similar design features, everything is different in shape and look.

Frankly, nobody sober would even remotely confuse the two, there's nothing to suggest a theft of design. By the time Apple offered the Air, every company has offered a "wedge" keyboard notebook.
Edited by JeffDM - 5/9/12 at 1:42pm
post #100 of 165

Blatent rip off.......  Sue Apple, Sue.  HP is just making THEIR laptop look identical to the MacBookAir. Shape, size, color, keyboard.  I mean come on HP.  Pay some money for it.

 

Intel just designed the motherboard that I know of, but they didn't design the actual case did they?

post #101 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Applelunatic View Post

Even then the Intel HD 3000 in the Air blows away even the A5x with nearly 20 times the GFLOPS, with fill rates of that are more than double for mpixels/s and or mtriangles/s you are looking at a minmum baseline of about 40x faster. So, sorry you're still far and away from even. Built-in Intel graphics let alone discrete AMD or NVIDIA GPUs.

No, you should look at the new GPUs from PowerVR, they will be equally powerful.

J.
post #102 of 165

Magnesium is actually stronger. It is just more costly to fabricate, it is more costly of a raw material, and it is brittle as it is a hard metal versus a soft metal.  Aircraft grade aluminum is more on the boarder of a hard metal.  You have to look at the raw material costs, costs to mfg, stiffness, corrosiveness, etc. before choosing the right material (alloy) for the particular part that you are making.  Some metals have "memory", which allows them to flex and go back into the original position.  Most metals don't have that flex.  The soft metals are easier to flex and once flexed, they usually stay bent, which is why soft metals dent easily.  Hard metals take more pressure to bend and some will actually crack easily, stay bent or flex back into shape.  TItanium flexes and has "memory" to it, so if you take a sheet of titanium and bend it, it will either try to flex back into it's original shape, or stay bent, etc. It all comes down to which alloy, since it is difficult to even obtain 100% pure metal for commercial applications, they usually contain some amounts of impurities.  It also has to do with thickness, shape, mfg process, etc.  Some are also better for dissipating heat.  Most heat sinks that I know of are made from aluminum.

post #103 of 165

Yeah, Intel's marketing people are just Apple wannabees that are jealous that no one really talks about Intel and Microsoft since Apple is getting all of the attention in the media with the iPhone and iPad and Apple designs their own chips for those devices.

 

It's called PARANOIA.   Paul Ottelini should resign from Intel and admit he is two face backstabbing CEO.

post #104 of 165

Yeah, I remember when the Mac first came out all of the DOS users were either switching or were taking the position that they could do all of the commands faster using the keyboard.  THEN WIndows comes out and then they are making fun of Apple only having one button mice.

 

It's just amusing from a  Mac user's perspective.

 

Bottom line, the WIndowsPC crowd with either imitate or switch, it is just a matter of when?

post #105 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by snova View Post

It's interesting that Microsoft thinks a ARM core running Windows RT as desktop replacement will be just fine.  "Most" consumers seem to just want to know is they can use it to check email, use office, Facebook, use a browser and play a few games. I think its been already proven that most consumers think an iPad does most of these things ok (minus office).  An ARM laptop running Windows RT should fill the gap for many people on the Windows side,  else Microsoft would not do it.  I think an MBA with an ARM for the iOS/OSX side will be just fine as well.  It does not matter that "some" people think the CPU will not be enough. The value proposition of what it will be able to do, speaks louder then what it can't do.  People seem to forget that.  Think about that your iPad can already do?  Even the original iPad 1.

As a result, I could care less about the spec debate.  Most consumers don't care about specs. All they want to know is will it do what they want. For most consumers, I think the answer will be yes with a Quad core ARM. For most geeks, who care about running benchmarks and running all their CPU intensive apps then answer will be no. The rest of the world *shrugs* their shoulders and pulls out their credit card. 

Consumer will pay attention to chats like this:
http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2012/04/16/announcing-the-windows-8-editions.aspx

Excellent post.

J.
post #106 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

That's actually not a great example to prove your point. While the location of the trackpad and the keyboard appearance are similar, there's no way someone would confuse that HP with a MBP.
Some of the Ultrabooks are near exact copies of the MBA - and that would be a better example of how the industry is copying Apple (but I realize that this article is about HP so the other examples might not fit as well).

Who's talking about confusing customers?

I think a lot of us here just feel sad for HP...

His comment "In no way did HP try to mimic Apple... in life there are a lot of similarities" isn't really helping them there.

Maybe they didn't "try" to mimic Apple... but they sure succeeded.

And I also think the Envy/Macbook Pro comparison is valid as well.

If HP existed in a vacuum... and they had never seen any Apple laptops before... then I'd say it was pure coincidence.

But no... what HP came up with was not accidental... not after Apple has been using those particular designs for a couple years.
post #107 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by snova View Post

It's interesting that Microsoft thinks a ARM core running Windows RT as desktop replacement will be just fine.

Please point to all those Windows RT desktops running ARM that perform 'just fine'. Oh, you've fallen for Microsoft vaporware again. Figures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snova View Post

And it is this reason that people do not buy the new iPad "aka iPad 3" vs a MBA?

Maybe you haven't noticed, but the iPad and the MBA are different products intended for different markets. The fact that the iPad 3 sells well doesn't mean that ARM is good enough for an ARM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snova View Post

close in performance can be read different ways.  Any can turn this into splitting hairs competition.  Do the specs themselves really matter?  Close in performance to me, means "good enough" for what most people want to use it for. 

Yes, and "black" can mean "white", too - if you're dishonest.

You claimed that ARM was close in performance to Intel Core. When people showed that Intel Core was 10 times as fast at CPU stuff, you claimed that you really meant GPU. So someone pointed out that Intel's HD3000 is 10 times as fast at GPU, as well (with the HD4000 just released). Then you started with "well, it may suck donkey ears, but it's good enough).

The fact is that you were lying when you said that ARM was close in performance to Intel's offerings.
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post #108 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

Yeah, Intel's marketing people are just Apple wannabees that are jealous that no one really talks about Intel and Microsoft since Apple is getting all of the attention in the media with the iPhone and iPad and Apple designs their own chips for those devices.

 

It's called PARANOIA.   Paul Ottelini should resign from Intel and admit he is two face backstabbing CEO.

Maybe its because Macs are the only computers which have no "Intel inside" sticker on the outside of enclosure.  Think about it from Intel marketing point view.  

.

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post #109 of 165
Needed a good chuckle. Was reading and then saw the picture. not designed in a vacuum.
post #110 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Please point to all those Windows RT desktops running ARM that perform 'just fine'. Oh, you've fallen for Microsoft vaporware again. Figures.
Maybe you haven't noticed, but the iPad and the MBA are different products intended for different markets. The fact that the iPad 3 sells well doesn't mean that ARM is good enough for an ARM.
Yes, and "black" can mean "white", too - if you're dishonest.
You claimed that ARM was close in performance to Intel Core. When people showed that Intel Core was 10 times as fast at CPU stuff, you claimed that you really meant GPU. So someone pointed out that Intel's HD3000 is 10 times as fast at GPU, as well (with the HD4000 just released). Then you started with "well, it may suck donkey ears, but it's good enough).
The fact is that you were lying when you said that ARM was close in performance to Intel's offerings.

I think you are confusing me with someone else..  please go find and quote me.   thanks for calling me a dishonest liar.   wow.  check your facts before you go all postal.  Oh btw.. nice to meet you too.. geez what a jerk. 

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post #111 of 165

I read this article and agreed with HP. Then I scrolled down and saw the picture of their laptop! haha. Apple doesn't own silver, but man their laptop looks JUST like the macbook pro/air. They'll get sued.

post #112 of 165

BS! HP is on the band wagon because they have no choice(they need chart cheap pc money). Intel and MS pimps the pc business. Intel needs to shove their chips up the pc's a$$ and MS needs to sell Windows(their cash cow). HP and  all the other pc losers out there are just along for the ride. 

And when intel gets their low powered chips in  tablet HP will be whoring that too.

post #113 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post
"Apple may like to think they own silver, but they don't," Wolff said. "In no way did HP try to mimic Apple. In life there are a lot of similarities."

Anybody else think its ironic that the model name is "Envy?"

post #114 of 165

Every time I see a Ultrabook commercial I think of this.

 

inspired.jpg

post #115 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmvsm View Post

Wouldn't be touting magnesium over aluminum. Magnesium is softer, more brittle, and has a tendency to bend easier, making aluminum much stronger. A characteristic I'd want in a mobile platform. Magnesium requires a protective coating over it to avoid corrosion where aluminum does not, and the metal itself is less stable than aluminum. Magnesium is also more expensive to produce. So keep talking Stacy.

 


I was thinking the same thing, but you brought up even more points. I knew about the brittle aspect.

post #116 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

To quote Yoda, "Do or do not. There is no try." And that's why we can build evolutionary trees of MP3 players, smartphones, tablets and laptops that are all rooted at Apple.

HP tried hard NOT to look like they were copying Apple's MacBook Air designs. The fact that they have to say "but it's merely a coincidence" is evidence that they failed.

Also, saying Apple doesn't own silver is like saying Apple didn't invent the rectangle: it's a troll move.

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post #117 of 165

Stacy Wolff is right. Apple engineered what an ultra-book is suppose to be for the whole PC industry and it just took them several years to realize that Apple was right. HP and the rest of the industry validated Apple's design and engineering decisions.

post #118 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

 


Actually, I think Steve meant that all "MacBooks" will look this way.  So far, he seems to be right.

 

 

No, I think he meant all notebooks......because having been the visionary that he was he knew right away that everyone else would eventually copy the design of the MacBook Air.

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post #119 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post
HP tried hard NOT to look like they were copying Apple's MacBook Air designs. The fact that they have to say "but it's merely a coincidence" is evidence that they failed.

Yup, because HP did copy, just as "Droid does [copy]".

 

The HP likely needs the rubber coating on the bottom to prevent the magnesium from corroding and to protect the softer metal from being scratched and dinged.


Edited by Cpsro - 5/9/12 at 2:56pm
post #120 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter View Post

 

No, I think he meant all notebooks......because having been the visionary that he was he knew right away that everyone else would eventually copy the design of the MacBook Air.


My bad.. I should have added the /s sarcasm hint.  I meant that many consumers are choosing to own MacBooks and MBA's and forgoing that cheap PC garbage. Eventually, everyone will own Apple notebooks so in a way, Steve will have been right that all notebooks will look like a Macbook because the WILL be Macbooks.  :)

It's still shameless copying by the competition.  At least the HP guy did admit that Apple did recognize Apple for what it did.

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