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Apple rumored to switch to Nvidia graphics for new MacBook Pros - Page 2

post #41 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSquirrel View Post

 

Have you looked into Haswell next year?  The move from Sandy Bridge to Ivy Bridge boosted the number of execution units for the GPU from 12 to 16.  Haswell will be making the jump from 16 to 40.  Even if we only got half that multiplier in performance increase, that would be a 125% improvment, which would make that 31fps you linked up nearly 70.  Yeah, with the jump to Haswell, they will certainly be continuing the extreme increase in performance for GPUs tied to their chips. 

 

Yes I realize that Haswell is a year out and the best card in that linked graphic was a GT440, but currently that card sells for 65-80 bucks.  Imagine the entire sub-$100 video card market disappearing b/c AMD and Intel have better GPUs included in their CPUs.  That is a lot of money to be lost by the GPU companies. 

 

Intel's integrated solution for GPU support is hitting it's theoretical ceiling. Keep believing their leaps forward. They will compromise their CPU sooner rather than later to strengthen their GPGPU integrated pipelines.

post #42 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


I don't deny that descrete GPUs become harder to justify with each iteration of compute hardware. However Integrated GPUs (Ivy Bridge & Trinity) are a long way from providing replacement functionality in the likes of the MBPs. That will likely change in a couple of years but right now we still need descrete GPUs.
As to OpenCL I'm not sure why you constantly poo poo it. OpenCL is perhaps one of Apples greatest success stories from a developer perspective. The movement to OpenCL has taken place throughout the industry as it is the best open solution out there to leverage computing resources often found in GPUs. I really see no basis for your position.

 

To strengthen your point on OpenCL/OpenGL even Nvidia sees the writing on the wall with CUDA as they've been dumping their Nvidia PTX Branch into LLVM/Clang to become optimized for OpenCL [by working with the entire community to extend support for OpenCL] and have their entire stack optimized for Clang and it's LLVM infrastructure.

 

Even the FOSS Community knows the number one desired approach to extending top flight apps [Blender, GIMP, Inkscape and more] is to leverage OpenCL. Blender 2.64 will have as much Kernel support for OpenCL 1.2 on Nvidia and AMD cards as possible. GIMP through it's GEGL backend and with help from AMD is moving it's backend concurrency stack to leverage the hell out of OpenCL.

 

Adobe worked with AMD to optimize it's CS 6 suite to use OpenCL 1.2. Every major Engineering and CAD application in the industry is using OpenCL. Only Apple has OpenCL integrated into the Operating System. Right now the impact is being felt at the user space, but with more applications leveraging OpenCL on OS X the increased benefits will be even more noticeable as more intensive resource tasks gets pushed to discrete GPUs without the consumer realizing it all because the system isn't slowing down.

post #43 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

 

Intel's integrated solution for GPU support is hitting it's theoretical ceiling. Keep believing their leaps forward. They will compromise their CPU sooner rather than later to strengthen their GPGPU integrated pipelines.

 

Is that teh same way that Moore's Law has reached its theoretical end oh, roughly every 5 years since he first said it, yet progress keeps happening at about the same pace he said it would.  As to compromising the CPU, why wouldn't they?  They don't need much more in the way of speed, wht they need is more cores, more efficiency and people to learn how to write better multi-threaded code to take advantage.

post #44 of 64
This is the new Kepler chip for mobile which means future proof gaming on macpros laptops. Best performance for laptops right now with a i7 CPU it will last...
post #45 of 64

Could Apple please install the absolutely latest, most powerful mobile Nvidia graphics cards possible.

 

It's disgraceful that Apple tends to install middle-of-the-line graphics cards in $2,0000 laptops. These are premium laptops we're buying -- give us top-of-the-line!

post #46 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeBarnes View Post
Could Apple please install the absolutely latest, most powerful mobile Nvidia graphics cards possible.

 

But that's dumb. AND physically impossible.

 

Quote:

It's disgraceful that Apple tends to install middle-of-the-line graphics cards in $2,0000 laptops. These are premium laptops we're buying -- give us top-of-the-line!

 

Then go buy something else that apparently suits your needs more. Who the heck said these are "premium" laptops?

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #47 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Do you still have the Mac? Did we learn a lesson?

I live in Brazil now and I went back to Spain just for a short period of time. Even if I still had it, I couldn't get it fixed because here in Brazil there are no Apple Stores, just certified stores.

post #48 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeBarnes View Post

Could Apple please install the absolutely latest, most powerful mobile Nvidia graphics cards possible.

 

It's disgraceful that Apple tends to install middle-of-the-line graphics cards in $2,0000 laptops. These are premium laptops we're buying -- give us top-of-the-line!

 

If you want one, you should buy a gaming laptops that runs Windows. Apple has been using AMD cards. They go up to the 6770m. You could look at the 6870m or the 6970m. I don't think the 6970m is ever really offered outside of 17" gaming laptops. I'm not sure about the 6870m. In any case, if gpus are an absolute priority, you're better off with another computer brand. No matter what gpu they're using, their OpenGL implementations have been incredibly sloppy. While you don't have to like it, you're going to end up accepting it if you buy one. Regarding NVidia vs AMD, AMD has seen fewer driver problems relative to NVidia under OSX than Windows. 

post #49 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeBarnes View Post

Could Apple please install the absolutely latest, most powerful mobile Nvidia graphics cards possible.

 

It's disgraceful that Apple tends to install middle-of-the-line graphics cards in $2,0000 laptops. These are premium laptops we're buying -- give us top-of-the-line!


I agree, I feel the same way - install the latest mobile Nvidia card & send me the bill. Macbook Pro's IMHO back-in-da'-day were considered PRO and featured the specs & the cost, not a low-end charity laptop. I agree with the notion that these laptops are Premium, and disagree with the guy who says they are not marketed as so. I certainly feel I am paying Premium price for a Premium product with Premium marketing gimmicks! =)

post #50 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xionium 
I agree, I feel the same way - install the latest mobile Nvidia card & send me the bill. Macbook Pro's IMHO back-in-da'-day were considered PRO and featured the specs & the cost, not a low-end charity laptop. I agree with the notion that these laptops are Premium, and disagree with the guy who says they are not marketed as so. I certainly feel I am paying Premium price for a Premium product with Premium marketing gimmicks! =)

The MBPs use some of the highest-end parts. The 15" models all have quad-core i7s. The higher-end GPUs like in the iMac use too much power, it's not really an issue of cost.

6770M = 25-30W
6970M = 75-100W

Put a 6970M in a laptop and you need to make it so thick you can use it to reach high shelves and it lasts about an hour at full load:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM6p9f5VDEg

The same 30W (approx) restriction will exist for the incoming MBPs. This means they can't use the GTX series if they go with NVidia or 7970M if they go with AMD.

The premium comes from the build quality and the highest-end parts that fit into that design. I find the display quality is a bit lacking but this might be resolved with the next update.
post #51 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


The MBPs use some of the highest-end parts. The 15" models all have quad-core i7s. The higher-end GPUs like in the iMac use too much power, it's not really an issue of cost.
6770M = 25-30W
6970M = 75-100W
Put a 6970M in a laptop and you need to make it so thick you can use it to reach high shelves and it lasts about an hour at full load:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM6p9f5VDEg
The same 30W (approx) restriction will exist for the incoming MBPs. This means they can't use the GTX series if they go with NVidia or 7970M if they go with AMD.
The premium comes from the build quality and the highest-end parts that fit into that design. I find the display quality is a bit lacking but this might be resolved with the next update.

Those guys are just completely stupid. First Apple has never offered the most powerful options on the market. In raw specs, they go to upper mid range, including on the mac pro. Now regarding the gpus suggested, these are typically used in 17" gaming laptops, and a couple 17 mobile workstations use the Quadro 5000m, and that's still a Fermi card. You're unlikely to see a Kepler version for a little while. The point is that they're reserved for people who would typically use a desktop, yet need something that can be transported. The overuse of the word premium has become incredibly annoying. These are all mass market items cranked out in high volume. There's no need to justify your purchase by assigning it a meaningless label.

post #52 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

Those guys are just completely stupid. First Apple has never offered the most powerful options on the market.

There will likely always be a number of shortsighted individuals that only see raw specs as measure of highest quality.

Even worse than the spec sheet schmucks are the ones that look at marketing keywords over capabilities (Could also also be the same people?). For instance, wait until the dual-core Cortex-A15 (or Apple's design based off the ARM reference) arrive in Apple products. I'm sure we'll get plenty of dissenters posting how Apple is ripping us off and Samsung is better because they were using quad-core chips in 2011.

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post #53 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


There will likely always be a number of shortsighted individuals that only see raw specs as measure of highest quality.
Even worse than the spec sheet schmucks are the ones that look at marketing keywords over capabilities (Could also also be the same people?). For instance, wait until the dual-core Cortex-A15 (or Apple's design based off the ARM reference) arrive in Apple products. I'm sure we'll get plenty of dissenters posting how Apple is ripping us off and Samsung is better because they were using quad-core chips in 2011.


The problem with looking at raw specs there wasn't just that they're looking at specs. They're picking out niche items that are commonly found on 17" Alienware or Sager gaming laptops. I think the Quadro versions are on the 17" Dell M series and HP elitebooks. Even with these machines, those are often upgrade options rather than standard, so you may be looking at a 17" laptop near (or sometimes above) the $3k range. Typically they're a little heavier and bulkier, but I'd want a laptop case for anything in that size range. It just doesn't make sense to request specialty design features on a computer not aimed at one of those markets. If that means they don't want to buy one, Windows is fine. Just buying another brand doesn't mean their laptop is going to explode as soon as the warranty runs out, and I doubt those guys are heavily invested in Apple specific software.

post #54 of 64

Apple knows what they are doing in my view. Could they go a bit higher? I am sure they could however they would need to install better cooling in their systems as well. The cooling systems in the gaming laptops I'm sure are more than adequate, no?

post #55 of 64
Call me silly but I can't see a compelling reason for Apple to go with NVidia! At least not in a Mac Book. The only possible reason would be performance per watt far greater than AMD offers. I don't think NVidia has a significant advantage here at all.
post #56 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Call me silly but I can't see a compelling reason for Apple to go with NVidia! At least not in a Mac Book. The only possible reason would be performance per watt far greater than AMD offers. I don't think NVidia has a significant advantage here at all.

I do like ATi better than nVidia, but sadly for ATi, Kepler seems to have a better performance per watt than GCN.

post #57 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Call me silly but I can't see a compelling reason for Apple to go with NVidia! At least not in a Mac Book. The only possible reason would be performance per watt far greater than AMD offers. I don't think NVidia has a significant advantage here at all.

NVidia still has that negative stigma, but both companies have released problematic cards in the past. Marvin mentioned the X1900XT which was an old ATI card used in the mac pro, but the mac pro has seen a lot of problematic graphics card implementations. I'm wondering what we will see this round.

 

Forgot to mention this, but I'm pretty sure kepler is only used on one or two cards thus far. It may be next year before we see the majority of NVidia's current line running on kepler.

post #58 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by heffeque View Post

I do like ATi better than nVidia, but sadly for ATi, Kepler seems to have a better performance per watt than GCN.

Interesting because I see conflicting data there. I'd personally would like to see the power considerations with Single and Double precision OpenCL work loads. Maybe a little three D thrown in there. The reality of laptops is that Apple uses the Intel chip for the light work so descrete GPU selection should be biased towards the more demanding GPU uses.

In any event a couple of more weeks should resolve this debate.

By the way semi accurate has this to say about NVidias new cards: http://semiaccurate.com/2012/02/01/physics-hardware-makes-keplergk104-fast/.

As to power and performance benchmarks it is far more of a mixed bag than one might imagine. We will have to wait for laptop specific parts to come. Honestly though going into his blind, on a laptop I'd go for with an AMD chip. Simply because it does compute so well.
Edited by wizard69 - 5/21/12 at 11:21pm
post #59 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

... The overuse of the word premium has become incredibly annoying. ...

LOL I agree! I just got some 'PREMIUM Luggage Tags' in the mail (cheap plastic) from Continental Airlines. Everything is PREMIUM today. PREMIUM Customer Support, PREMIUM Service, PREMIER Line, PREMIUM GAS,  .... Preeeemmmiuuummmm... h3ll, typing PREMIUM LAPTOP into Google brings up 1st result 'Hp Premium Notebooks(SM)(R)(TM)'! It says it's Premium, so it must be good...~!

post #60 of 64

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvhsJyecpLc <--- George Carlin - Advertising Lullaby (RIP Carlin, from 1999's You are all Diseased)

 

Somehow I felt this was appropriate.

 

Edit: Keeping this on topic. It could also be a money thing and a better deal was offered by nvidia. 


Edited by Winter - 5/22/12 at 1:19pm
post #61 of 64
Sadly you can see right in these forums people applying value to the word PREMIUM with out evaluating the underlying device. Apple trades on this stupidity too and frankly is why they can even consider selling a machine like the Mini of Mac PRO. Neither of these machines are really competitive in the marketplace anymore, yet they have an image amongst some as PREMIUM devices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xionium View Post

LOL I agree! I just got some 'PREMIUM Luggage Tags' in the mail (cheap plastic) from Continental Airlines. Everything is PREMIUM today. PREMIUM Customer Support, PREMIUM Service, PREMIER Line, PREMIUM GAS,  .... Preeeemmmiuuummmm... h3ll, typing PREMIUM LAPTOP into Google brings up 1st result 'Hp Premium Notebooks(SM)(R)(TM)'! It says it's Premium, so it must be good...~!
post #62 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xionium View Post

LOL I agree! I just got some 'PREMIUM Luggage Tags' in the mail (cheap plastic) from Continental Airlines. Everything is PREMIUM today. PREMIUM Customer Support, PREMIUM Service, PREMIER Line, PREMIUM GAS,  .... Preeeemmmiuuummmm... h3ll, typing PREMIUM LAPTOP into Google brings up 1st result 'Hp Premium Notebooks(SM)(R)(TM)'! It says it's Premium, so it must be good...~!

While I wouldn't have worded it exactly that way, it puzzles me how people don't understand this. Macs on here are sometimes compared to ferraris, yet one isn't really comparable to the other. Macs are still mass market items made from primarily commoditized parts. This is always a point of argument, but they can fail or encounter problems just like any other computer. There are some details that are exceptionally well done, but much of the time they're veneer.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Sadly you can see right in these forums people applying value to the word PREMIUM with out evaluating the underlying device. Apple trades on this stupidity too and frankly is why they can even consider selling a machine like the Mini of Mac PRO. Neither of these machines are really competitive in the marketplace anymore, yet they have an image amongst some as PREMIUM devices.

The brand image does drive these things at times. I worry that it gets in the way of actually seeing better designs. The mac pro isn't that bad on the high end. It's just that much of it hits a very poor price point relative to its performance below that level. It's basically built as a mid range workstation. The super high end fringe options aren't really there. We're not seeing a range of gpus with drivers optimized for computation. It's just neglected, and the budget end of its line doesn't offer much. Frankly the only two models that should exist are the 6 and 12 core. I'm surprised they branched out their designs so much on a niche line with the single package version using a different daughter board setup. It just doesn't flow right now as the bottom model has started to feel like a step backward from the imac in some ways. Add in more thunderbolt storage options and that segment (note segment, as in the people purchasing the base 2.8ghz model) will shrink even further. The problem with it currently is that the base options aren't that impressive, and they're priced out of the realm of what most people will pay just for moderate extra expansion. The guys buying the 6 core and up are a totally different market as that pushes you to at least $4k for the tower alone.

post #63 of 64
Two things that I would love to see put into the next Macbook Pro's are a built in 3G/LTE module and a battery slice that fixes to the bottom of the unit. I really hate USB dongles and I would really like to get 10+ hours of battery.

Traditionally I've bought a new Macbook every year but this year I might skip it. I have really been drooling over the new Lenovo X1 Carbon Fiber model. Talk about dreamy, .07" thick, newest Intel chip set Ivy Bridge with i7 , 16GB Ram, 256GB SSD, battery slice available for 12+ hours, 14" 1600 x 900 res., 3G built in, under 2,000 CHF. Real tempting, I will have to see what Apple comes out with, if they make the current body thinner then that it will defiantly be a coin toss moment.

462
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post #64 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Two things that I would love to see put into the next Macbook Pro's are a built in 3G/LTE module and a battery slice that fixes to the bottom of the unit. I really hate USB dongles and I would really like to get 10+ hours of battery.
Traditionally I've bought a new Macbook every year but this year I might skip it. I have really been drooling over the new Lenovo X1 Carbon Fiber model. Talk about dreamy, .07" thick, newest Intel chip set Ivy Bridge with i7 , 16GB Ram, 256GB SSD, battery slice available for 12+ hours, 14" 1600 x 900 res., 3G built in, under 2,000 CHF. Real tempting, I will have to see what Apple comes out with, if they make the current body thinner then that it will defiantly be a coin toss moment.
462

Man that is sexy, come to mama.
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