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Samsung accuses Apple trial experts of 'slavish adoration,' seeks to invalidate testimony

post #1 of 36
Thread Starter 
Court filings from the ongoing Apple v. Samsung patent dispute reveal that the South Korean company is seeking to exclude testimony from certain trial experts on claims that the witnesses are part of the 'cult-like' following sometimes associated with the iPad maker.

In attempts to further streamline an upcoming California trial, both Samsung and Apple filed motions last Thursday to dismiss claims, strike theories and exclude testimony of expert witnesses hired by the opposing party, reports FOSS Patents' Florian Mueller.

The introductory paragraph of one Samsung filing smacks of the tone used by the Galaxy maker in its TV ads that portray Apple users as so-called "fanboys."

From the motion:

"Apple's damages expert, Terry L. Musika, writes in his report that 'Apple has built a considerable and at times a cult-like following to all things Apple.' That cult-like following apparently includes several experts who are appearing on Apple's behalf in this case, and may explain why they have cast aside established scientific methods and governing legal principles in favor of slavish adoration of their client and platitudes about its alleged magical and revolutionary products, issues that are of no relevance to the claims and defenses at issue."


Interestingly, the brief goes on to name Musika as one of the eight witnesses whose opinions and testimony should be excluded by the court.

Mueller notes that Samsung was especially critical of Henry Urbach's testimony regarding the "alleged cultural significance" of Apple products. The motion asserts that Urbach "unquestionably is a loyal devotee of Apple, its designers, its products, and its retail stores," noting that prior to being hired by Apple as an expert witness, he wrote an essay on the design of the company's retail stores titled Gardens of Earthly Delights that describes them "as '[q]uasi-religious in almost every respect, . . . chapels for the Information Age.'"

Urbach's expertise was also questioned, with Samsung saying that he "lacks the qualifications to serve as an expert on Apple?s 'design excellence' or its public appreciation" and bases testimony "solely on his say so, rather than any objectively verifiable data." The qualifying remarks to those objections were redacted from the document.



For its part, Apple seeks to exclude the opinions of eight Samsung experts, citing position and qualifications as reasons for rejection. The company also moved to strike theories that are inconsistent with Samsung's initial invalidity and infringement disputes as well as those that were not presented during discovery.

Mueller believes that Apple's motion for summary judgment is more focused than Samsung's opposing filing, noting that Apple argues against three Samsung patents, saying it doesn't infringe on one while seeking to invalidate two others. Samsung, on the other hand, presented a "laundry list" of items for the summary judgment stage:
  • Invalidate Apple's trade dresses because they are allegedly functional. Samsung says Apple's trade dress dilution claim, which involves the iPhone and iPad, should be tossed because it allegedly cannot prove that those trade dresses are famous.

  • Invalidate all six asserted design patents; five for obviousness over prior art, one due to the "on-sale bar" as the iPhone was on sale before a related design patent was applied for.

  • The tossing of all four Apple utility patents because the asserted claims of three are invalid and the asserted claim of another patent is not infringed.

  • Dismissal of Apple's FRAND-related antitrust claims on summary judgment because Apple allegedly cannot prove any damages because no products have been excluded from the market due to Samsung's standard-essential patents.

Both companies are expected to file their opposition briefs soon.

The CEOs of both companies met today in California as part of court-sanctioned two-day settlement discussion, though the talks are not expected to be particularly fruitful.
post #2 of 36

Huh. Guess I won't ever bother defending these guys against bias ever again. 

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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post #3 of 36
Based on that quoted paragraph Samsung seems to be embellishing quite a bit with terms like "magical" which I don't the experts actually used.

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #4 of 36

So not only does Samesung insult Apple's customers as fanboys, but now the court experts too.

 

Haters gonna hate.

post #5 of 36
a cult? count me in! well, sort of. i've been using apple products since you were knee-high to a grasshopper, i'm a shareholder, and i do think they're the best world's largest company, but i sure as hell ain't gonna shave my head, tithe to them, or even chant anything for that matter. i will continue to buy their exceptional products, however, when i think that they are of value to me. so take that, samsung.
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post #6 of 36

Don't worry Samsung, only humans are permitted to testify, sheeps and other animals are not allowed in the court.

post #7 of 36

Quote:
"Apple's damages expert, Terry L. Musika, writes in his report that 'Apple has built a considerable and at times a cult-like following to all things Apple.' That cult-like following apparently includes several experts who are appearing on Apple's behalf in this case, and may explain why they have cast aside established scientific methods and governing legal principles in favor of slavish adoration of their client and platitudes about its alleged magical and revolutionary products, issues that are of no relevance to the claims and defenses at issue."

 

 

Tim had to meet today to show that his penis is actually larger and curves to the right than Sammy's CEO. The above quote by Samsung's attorneys does sound rather childish and belongs more in school yard than a court room. Who else better to be an expert on Apple than a fanboy? Should Apple find an expert into Android?

post #8 of 36

Well at least they did not compare anyone to the Nazis.  Yet.

 

Next up, label them something "Big" so it makes them REALLY evil, like Big Tobacco or Big Oil.  

 

"Big Apple"

 

whoops, that's already taken.

 

I notice that Samsung has a nice team of American lawyers.  I guess Apple can add all the lawyers for companies suing them to the list of jobs they have created in America. 

 

I hope Apple files all of its legal briefs in electronic format only.   Wouldn't want to upset Greenpeace.

 

Slavish adoration?   I don't adore any slavs.

post #9 of 36

So let me see if I have this straight. 

 

Apple wants to have Samsung's experts removed on the grounds that they can't prove they have the education and/or experience to qualify as experts. Samsung wants Apple's removed on the grounds that, while yes they are experts, they like Apple's stuff too much and might be biased towards the company that hired them to testify on the company's behalf. 

 

I'll give them on the issue of perhaps the trade dress is a tad obvious, if taken piece meal. But they are also trying to get the whole FRAND issue struck down on the grounds that it doesn't matter if Samsung did something illegal or not, Apple still made boatloads of sales so they shouldn't whine about damages. 

 

classy, real classy

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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post #10 of 36

Does Mueller have the unredacted version? The link goes to one where a lot of it is redacted. A couple of the pages nearly everything is redacted other than 1 or 2 lines. Some of the redacted parts leads to funny unredacted stuff. You'd get redacted then followed by . "That is absurd"

 

Hardly anything can be made from it.  Its Name of expert, what they said which is redacted followed by citation of case law as to why it should and occasionally some more redacted stuff.

post #11 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pooch View Post

a cult? count me in! well, sort of. i've been using apple products since you were knee-high to a grasshopper, i'm a shareholder, and i do think they're the best world's largest company, but i sure as hell ain't gonna shave my head, tithe to them, or even chant anything for that matter. i will continue to buy their exceptional products, however, when i think that they are of value to me. so take that, samsung.

If I think their products aren't as good as another company I'll buy those. If I think their stock won't be performing well in the future I won't invest. They have to remain excellent or they will lose people like they did in the 90s.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #12 of 36
Haaaaahaaahhaahhha. Unbelievable. You're a liar Samsung CEO Gee-sung Choi.

You authorized your engineers to steal Apple's IP and market a product so similar to Apple's "magical and revolutionary" products so that non-savvy tech customers could be tricked into buying an inferior Samsung knockoff.

You are a liar Gee-sung Choi, and you have brought much shame and loss of face upon yourself, your employees and your company. Shame on you Gee-sung Choi. Shame on you.
post #13 of 36

Who indeed is the cult follower with the slavish adoration?  Hmm Samsung?  Is it the company that has lines around the block after almost every production introduction or is it the company that creates TV commercials bashing said 'waiting lines' wishing they had that problem?  Is it the company that produced the new smartphone format and eco system and expanded that and created an entirely new tablet category, or is it the company that slavishly copied form, styles, color scheme, home buttons, made their products so similar that even in court their own lawyers couldn't distinguish the two products apart at a distance of ten feet?  Hmm Samsung?  Who indeed has the cult like following due to slavish adoration?  You're kind of quiet there Samsung!

/

/

/

Ten years ago, we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.  Today we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

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Ten years ago, we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.  Today we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

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post #14 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Beige View Post

Haaaaahaaahhaahhha. Unbelievable. You're a liar Samsung CEO Gee-sung Choi.
You authorized your engineers to steal Apple's IP and market a product so similar to Apple's "magical and revolutionary" products so that non-savvy tech customers could be tricked into buying an inferior Samsung knockoff.
You are a liar Gee-sung Choi, and you have brought much shame and loss of face upon yourself, your employees and your company. Shame on you Gee-sung Choi. Shame on you.

Falling on his sword seems the right move for Gee-sung Choi now I'd say.  Or is that only for Japanese honorable losers?

Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
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Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
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post #15 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

So not only does Samesung insult Apple's customers as fanboys, but now the court experts too.

 

Haters gonna hate.

Samsung commercials have been insulting Apple fans for the past year or so... yet they court them as customers. I think Samsung would like such product loyalty and a feeling butthurt for not having it.

"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #16 of 36

Why would anyone take Samsung's opinions and protests seriously. 

 

These are are the CRIMINALS Apple is dealing with:

 

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=13394166&highlight=samsung+criminal#post13394166

post #17 of 36

Isn't anyone going to say Samsung is slavishly using the word slavish?
 

post #18 of 36
Quote:
Urbach's expertise was also questioned, with Samsung saying that he "lacks the qualifications to serve as an expert on Apple's 'design excellence' or its public appreciation" and bases testimony "solely on his say so, rather than any objectively verifiable data." 

This is why Samsung is Samsung and Apple is Apple. When Steve Jobs decided a design was bad did he present a carefully laid out collection of 'objectively verifiable data' or did 'because it sucks' suffice? To serve as an expert witness on design you have to have a deep knowledge and understanding of design, design history and design in a social context. You may have a degree in design and you probably require a pretty strong track record and be recognized as something of an authority in the field (all of applies to Urbach), but in that context, a certain amount of 'say so' is as inevitable as it is required. If it was all about a bunch of statistical facts an expert is hardly necessary. Someone to expertly deliver the data would do.

post #19 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

This is why Samsung is Samsung and Apple is Apple. When Steve Jobs decided a design was bad did he present a carefully laid out collection of 'objectively verifiable data' or did 'because it sucks' suffice? To serve as an expert witness on design you have to have a deep knowledge and understanding of design, design history and design in a social context. You may have a degree in design and you probably require a pretty strong track record and be recognized as something of an authority in the field (all of applies to Urbach), but in that context, a certain amount of 'say so' is as inevitable as it is required. If it was all about a bunch of statistical facts an expert is hardly necessary. Someone to expertly deliver the data would do.

well that depends. For individuals like steve, just saying it sucks without any reason flies regardless even if it was something quantifiable.  But I agree there are times where you really can't put a data value on it like weight or size. It might perfect in all those areas but then the only word you can reject on is its ugly with no point of reference.   Since we can't see exactly what he is saying that Samsung is objecting to its difficult make any conclusions there are some hints from the unredacted portions. "Mr. Urbach has admitted he has no experience in product design, or market, and therefore any opinions he could offer would be beyond his area of expertise."

post #20 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tune View Post

Isn't anyone going to say Samsung is slavishly using the word slavish?
 

 

What would be the point?

 

It's already been established that Samsung copies what Apple does, and Apple used the word 'slavish' in a legal sense, what, twelve or more months ago?

 

Hell, Samsung don't even seem able to use their own legal terms in court.

My car keeps crashing whenever I do 150mph. It's a design flaw. People tell me to slow down and drive normally but I should be able to use it as I wish.
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My car keeps crashing whenever I do 150mph. It's a design flaw. People tell me to slow down and drive normally but I should be able to use it as I wish.
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post #21 of 36

Hummm...

How about when three or four generations of the same family are devoted to buying only Chev or Ford, as is a common habit. Cultish or simple brand loyalty?

 

I don't think the average Apple user is part of a cult slavishly flowing magical products, but common consumers that want the stuff they buy to simply work and work simply. Apple appears to be a company that makes original, highly innovative products and earns their customer's loyalty by standing behind those products with support and excellent customer service. 

 

Samsung has chosen to use Google's "free" Android operating system (cue booing from fan boys) as the cornerstone of their product line. Android has much less consistency between versions, no dependable upgrade for older products and new products are known to ship with out of date operating systems. HTC is currently going down in flames because of Android and the court battle carnage.

 

Samsung's legal arguments drip with envy for the kind of customer loyalty that Apple has earned. I would have thought their high paid legal team would have come up with better arguments, these seem just plain silly.

post #22 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Falling on his sword seems the right move for Gee-sung Choi now I'd say.  Or is that only for Japanese honorable losers?

 

You need to reword this or maybe you mean to be disrespectful to Japanese? (Not cool)  Samsung is from South Korea.

post #23 of 36

Screw Samsung!

Apple's stuff works!!!!!

Samsung though would kill to have the same goddamn admiration for their products. Hell, why the f**** do you think companies advertise?

Hello!

post #24 of 36

So Apple's lawyers cite positions and qualifications for rejection, while Samsung's lawyers troll the court with accusations of fanboyism as reason to reject? LMAO. They've sunk even lower. They're done. lol.gif

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post #25 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

So Apple's lawyers cite positions and qualifications for rejection, while Samsung's lawyers troll the court with accusations of fanboyism as reason to reject? LMAO. They've sunk even lower. They're done. lol.gif

 

No, Samsung like Apple cited lack of qualifications and failure to follow established scientific methods and governing legal principles as reasons to exclude. It’s just that the article emphasized the motion’s punchy intro. But the article did report the underlying arguments too.

As others have already noted, it’s difficult to judge for oneself the merits of Samsung’s positions because the meat of their arguments has been redacted. (That indicates that it is based on confidential information.) Still, one can glean tidbits—at pp.1–2, it appears one of Apple’s experts concluded based on Apple’s and/or Samsung’s confidential materials that Apple’s lost sales are at or near 1:1 for Samsung’s accused sales, and Samsung is arguing that the expert failed to consider brand loyalty for Samsung users. The question is, does that mean the expert’s methodology is flawed, or that it is sound but he just drew the “wrong” conclusion? If the former, exclude as inadmissible evidence; if the latter, allow it, but the opponent will try to convince the jury that the testimony should be given no weight.
post #26 of 36

"You can't fall off the floor"   From 128k Mac to 8GB MBP

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post #27 of 36

Slavish adoration? Clearly, no one at Samsung has ever used an iPhone!

post #28 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tune View Post

Isn't anyone going to say Samsung is slavishly using the word slavish?
 

 

I was.  My first thought was "So the the company that slavishly copied Apple's products is actually slavishly copying Apple's description of their behavior by lifting the word 'slavish.'"  Good lord. 

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #29 of 36

Good to know my former classmates are doing SUCH valuable work at the top law firms. 

post #30 of 36

Good God I did not think I'd see the day where "fanboy" becomes an official word used in court. 

post #31 of 36
Come on does Samsung really thinks Apple would put up as their experts Samsung Fanboys, any company will put forward experts who favor their view of the world. It really sounds like Samsung experts were not convincing. Next, they will ask the Judge to excuse himself if he uses or has Apple products.
Edited by Maestro64 - 5/22/12 at 10:07am
post #32 of 36

If you are used to customers with "Buyer's Remorse" than based on Samsung's experience, their idea of bias makes perfect sense.

 

Make sure you also insult the judge as having slavish devotion to the law, and the jury to having slavish devotion to citizenship -- works wonders!

post #33 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by orthorim View Post

Good God I did not think I'd see the day where "fanboy" becomes an official word used in court. 

 

Well, people in our media no longer set an example for civil discourse -- so it's stands to reason that there is a "trickle down" effect from all the trickling down that people experience.

post #34 of 36

I'm actually kind of entertained by Samsung, at this point. Their leadership seems to be more-or-less batshit insane.

 

Maybe it's some kind of insular Korean thing that I'm not getting, but a lot of their public utterances, PR materials and general vibe seems to vacillate between weirdly over-the-top hubris and petty childishness. You get the feeling that the Samsung brass believe they are the rightful new Apple, and the old Apple is being unfair by continuing to exist.  And if they continue to mimic every aspect of Apple's style (the latest Galaxy Note ad is, yes, "slavishly" Apple-esque) they'll wake up one morning and the transformation to be complete.

 

What makes it extra-special nuts is the belligerence with which they go about this.  Like Apple trying to stand in their way of becoming Apple is deeply insulting and worthy of nothing but contempt.  Screw you Apple, for trying to horde your Appleness!  That's why you suck!  So apparently "Appleness" is a quality independent of Apple, and should be regarded as something like a natural resource that Apple just happens to be squatting over.

You can't stop it.
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You can't stop it.
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post #35 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbansprawl View Post

 

You need to reword this or maybe you mean to be disrespectful to Japanese? (Not cool)  Samsung is from South Korea.

To some people, Israel is located somewhere near Canada. Expect them to make a difference between two countries in Asia? Fat luck :p

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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post #36 of 36
I think Apple should sue the Samsung lawyers for having round heads since apples are shaped so.
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