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Jury finds Google Android didn't violate Oracle's patents - Page 3

post #81 of 157
As the saying goes if you don't like it you can leave. Nobody in their right mind would be in a place their not welcomed. If you find the Apple people who on an Apple forum are either too delusional or are too far up in themselves for your taste. You can go with no regard nor respect for this site if you wish. I won't lie that I myself like Apple products and wish I had the money to buy the MBA. I'm sure you will reply to this in some demeaning manner or try to put me down in some way because I like Apple. I dont always have to agree with them nor do I have to buy their products, but my choice is to do so. So call me what you will I don't care. Just show some respect for a forum that talks about a company and its products that you deem crappy on a forum that is for it personally aka Apple.
post #82 of 157
Knock off the "those evil Apple fanboys are oppressing the peace loving Android users on this site" act. You come here to pick a fight and complain about being banned. Who's more "delusional"?

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #83 of 157

Ugh, really?

 

1 - This isn't a democracy - this is a privately owned internet discussion forum, their site, their rules, their judgement. You agree to this when you sign up.

 

2 - This is an Apple-centric discussion site. Not Android. No, really. Not Android. We know this. Your hint is in the domain name.

 

3 - By and large, we simply don't care about whatever the new Android phone megawidget is or does. You paid your money, you made your choice. So did we. Some of us have used just about every mobile system out there at one point or another, and we still prefer the iOS platform. That doesn't make us stupid, sheep, cool, satanic or any other label that some might want to hang around our necks. It's a phone/media device/tablet, get over it.

 

4 - Google/Bing/Yahoo/etc is only a click/swipe/voice command away - use it if you don't like Apple/Appleinsider/Moderators/The opinions/Members/Colors/Fonts whatever. There are other more applicable forums out there for you to join.

 

5 - Don't worry about it - there's more to life ;)

post #84 of 157
double!!

Edited by AbsoluteDesignz - 5/24/12 at 2:13am
post #85 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


The bolded statement only applies in the case of true competition - and even then, it's not always true.
But let's take this scenario. You have a jewelry store. It's the only jewelry store in town and you do a robust business. I decide to open my own jewelry store, but I stock it by breaking into yours and taking half of your jewelry. That should be OK because competition is good for consumers, right?
Competition needs to be legitimate competition. Stealing someone else's work doesn't count.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyram Gestan View Post

 

 

It is stolen from Apple.  And Oracle.  But mostly Apple.

what was stolen? 

post #86 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoobs View Post

Ugh, really?

 

1 - This isn't a democracy - this is a privately owned internet discussion forum, their site, their rules, their judgement. You agree to this when you sign up.

 

2 - This is an Apple-centric discussion site. Not Android. No, really. Not Android. We know this. Your hint is in the domain name.

 

3 - By and large, we simply don't care about whatever the new Android phone megawidget is or does. You paid your money, you made your choice. So did we. Some of us have used just about every mobile system out there at one point or another, and we still prefer the iOS platform. That doesn't make us stupid, sheep, cool, satanic or any other label that some might want to hang around our necks. It's a phone/media device/tablet, get over it.

 

4 - Google/Bing/Yahoo/etc is only a click/swipe/voice command away - use it if you don't like Apple/Appleinsider/Moderators/The opinions/Members/Colors/Fonts whatever. There are other more applicable forums out there for you to join.

 

5 - Don't worry about it - there's more to life ;)

In all fairness, while I agree with your overarching point to a degree, a LOT of articles on this site have zero to do with Apple barring a game of 6 degrees of separation.

post #87 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjb View Post

Hahaha, I am honoured.  It does not look like it but I put consideration arranging icons into folders.  I do not have any trouble finding what I want.  I dont think it depends on the DPI and phone size.  FYI, my Galaxy Nexus dpi is 316, not better than iPhone but it is ok.  And the screen size is 4.65 inch.  I dont have to zoom in for full websites on horizontal view.

I think your real DPI should be reduced by 1/3 because of the pentile, so the real DPI is 210.

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post #88 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by androiduser2 View Post

Yeah, so.. Apple is the BEST. Google AND Android sucks balls! Android is a crappy OS, and iOS is a billion, gazillion times better. Period! There, I said it. I don't want to get banned from this site anymore..

Please go away, go to androidpolice, android central, xda-developer, etc and bash Apple there, no one will bother to stalk you and refute every your post.

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post #89 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuwafuwa View Post

I think your real DPI should be reduced by 1/3 because of the pentile, so the real DPI is 210.

Um. I am not sure about that. You maybe right. But I cannot see pixels with my phone, maybe my eye sight is not very good. To me dpi is not an issue and i was just replying and commenting to Tallest Skill.
post #90 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post

 

 

what was stolen? 

I'm also curious about this. This is the first I've read of Android code being copied from Apple.

Unless it's in reference to the form factor, app drawer, store, things like that? I read the comment to be something in the code, which I'm curious if that's true.

 

 

As for people asking about clarification of why some might consider Android to be less than open:

In the sense that an end-user can take a widget and drop it onto the main screen it's more open than other platforms.

But in the sense that those of us who want to download the code and do things with it and upload it to our devices it's far from open.

 

The kernel is open, but that's the only thing that is anchored to the GPL. The rest of Android, android proper, is only open in so far as Google deems it should be. It wasn't until the recent ICS code drop that Google was even forthcoming with the code. Honeycomb never saw a public release, for example. There's no mechanism that would preclude Google from refusing to release anything after ICS. Earlier releases of iterations of Android were lagging, to put it in the most favorable description of what Google was doing. In fact, Google picks a vendor and gives that vendor priority for its up-to-date iteration. Google, for all intents and purposes, is in the business of selecting which vendor will benefit the most from its release cycle. These decisions are governed by monetary considerations, which isn't in and of itself wrong.

 

There is much code that will never see the light of day. It will never be available to the public. This is necessary because the vendors would never have picked up android and invested in it if they could not have retained some proprietary code and monetized their investment. Again, none of this is wrong. What is wrong is how Google went about it. If they have a business model they should be expected to play by the rules. In this case, they should have obtained licensing agreements with Oracle. Their own documentation demonstrates that they suspected they were on shaky ground. Illegal at worst and unethical at best. Even Sun felt "slimed" by Google's actions so you don't have to hinge an opinion on Oracle's perspective. The millions of Java developers who now have to leave Java and move to Android in order to remain relevant might have strong opinions about the matter, too.

 

I think it's tragic that Google went this route and it's caused me to lose a tremendous amount of respect for their brand.

 

I fought long and hard to get ICS (and previous versions of android) running on my Captivate. Android was and continues to be open in some ways and closed in others.

That said, I'm positing this from my MacBook. I could be in Safari 5.2 or I might be using Firefox 12. I'll have to look at the title bar...Safari 5.2 it is.

For some reason those last points seemed relevant to the thread? I'm not sure how the thread devolved into a metadiscussion over participant behavior but whatever.

post #91 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post

In all fairness, while I agree with your overarching point to a degree, a LOT of articles on this site have zero to do with Apple barring a game of 6 degrees of separation.

 

True, but it's still content on this site/forum about news from the related industries which might interest readers/members. The difference is that this is an Apple-centric site & forum, and so visitors should at least expect a positive feeling towards Apple from the membership.

 

Coming in blowing their own trumpets about how superior their pet system/widget/doodad and that Apple or it's customers "suck" is a complete waste of time.

 

Previous history of pretty much the same argument:

 

Spectrum vs C64

 

Amiga vs Atari ST

 

Amiga vs PC

 

Mac vs PC

 

Sega vs Nintendo

 

Playstation vs Saturn

 

Sony vs Nintendo vs Microsoft

 

Canon vs Nikon

 

Ketchup vs Brown sauce

 

Red vs Blu (TF2 fans! lol.gif)

 

etc etc etc

 

It's an old tired, and pointless argument.

 

Pay your money, make your choice, don't berate those who chose differently.

 

All that happens is it descends into flame wars, people get banned, people try to subvert the bans, the cycle continues, and nobody wins.

 

Boring.

post #92 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post


what was stolen? 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizzle View Post

I'm also curious about this. This is the first I've read of Android code being copied from Apple.
Unless it's in reference to the form factor, app drawer, store, things like that? I read the comment to be something in the code, which I'm curious if that's true.

I agree, I don't think Android uses any stolen Apple code, I would tend to assume that unless reasonably proven otherwise. I don't think that was the intended claim.

Maybe that impression was made because of the context of the article, but even this lawsuit wasn't really about theft of code, but implementing parts of Oracle's proprietary language without permission.
Edited by JeffDM - 5/24/12 at 5:08am
post #93 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fake_William_Shatner View Post

 

I agree -- but this is a surprising decision.

 

Google violated Oracle's JAVA almost in the exact way that Microsoft did with "embrace and extend"

It's not quite the same violation.  Microsoft used the same basic structure for its virtual machine as Sun, but omitted certain functionality they didn't agree with and replaced it with some of their own proprietary new functionality.  Most "regular" Java applications would run without modification on the Microsoft VM, however, applications written to take specific advantage of Microsoft's extensions wouldn't necessarily be able to run in the stock Sun VM.  This created a tangible fracture in the Java ecosystem.

 

With Android, on the other hand, Google (and its predecessors) went out of their way to ensure that there wasn't even any partial compatibility.  Every application written for one platform is always 100% guaranteed to require some modification -- including a complete recompile to re-target between a stack-based (Android) or register-based (Java) virtual machine -- before there would even be any potential of possibly running on the other platform.  A completely seperate exercise would then need to be undertaken to make sure you weren't using any APIs which were incompatible or not implemented on one or the other platform.  This was, no doubt, a deliberate effort to establish Android as a completely separate ecosystem from Java, rather than a fracturing subset of the single ecosystem.

post #94 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by bizzle View Post

 

...It wasn't until the recent ICS code drop that Google was even forthcoming with the code. Honeycomb never saw a public release, for example. There's no mechanism that would preclude Google from refusing to release anything after ICS. Earlier releases of iterations of Android were lagging, to put it in the most favorable description of what Google was doing. 

 

...There is much code that will never see the light of day. It will never be available to the public. This is necessary because the vendors would never have picked up android and invested in it if they could not have retained some proprietary code and monetized their investment.

Your Honeycomb claim is incorrect. Honeycomb source code was released several months ago. Personally I chalk the delay up to Amazon developing a forked Android version for their Kindle Fire tablet and Google not wanting to make it overly easy to grab their tablet-specific build. Once the Kindle was released the Honeycomb source code was suddenly available. No proof that one was related to the other, but given the timing and the poorly explained delayed release of that specific version it seems pretty likely to me.

 

Too, Amazon's success with using Google's Gingerbread build is proof that the full source code was available. Without it they wouldn't have been able to fork a compatible version of their own.  Add the unauthorized Chinese builds, B&N custom build for the Nook, and assorted off-brand tablets (Coby, etc.) lacking Google services for more proof that published build-able source code has been available all along. So that claim of yours is also wrong.

 

As for your third claim that much of the Android source code will never be available, part of the approval stipulation for Google's purchase of Motorola Mobility is that the code will be freely available and remain open for at least the next 5 years. If you have some evidence that the complete Android builds aren't available and never will be I'd love to see it. 

 

IMO, Android is open-source. If some vendor wishes to use it without Google's approval they most certainly can, and Google has never given any indication to the contrary.

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post #95 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

 

It;s not so much the validity of Android as an OS...

 

 

Do you buy things and associate yourself with those who can't be trusted or respected?
 
 

'Twas an evening in October, I'll confess I wasn't sober,

 I was carting home a load with manly pride, When my feet began to stutter and I fell into the gutter, And a pig came up and lay down by my side.
 Then I lay there in the gutter and my heart was all a-flutter, A high-toned lady, passing by, did chance to say: "You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses," Then the pig got up and slowly walked away.     Walked away, walked away,     He was really too particular to stay.     "You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses,"     Then the pig got up and slowly walked away.
 

All I can see from your post is a bunch of crap but if it makes you feel good then I say go for it.

post #96 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

You will ALWAYS be called into question, EVERYWHERE you go, if you have a hatred of the content of the place you are, and you're vocal about it.

 

Why all these newcomers (who actually often turn out to be trolls) are so mystified by the fact that they're being called out for hating Apple on an Apple forum… mystifies ME.

 

I'll give you it from my perspective.

 

If I came onto AppleInsider and said 'I hate Apple, Apple products are all crap, Android FTW!' then that would be trolling, and you'd be quite right to ban me. There's no purpose to that sort of comment other than to wind people up.

 

But I never do that. When I criticise Apple, it is to point out that Apple gear is not perfect, or that competitors make good and popular products too. I try to support my criticisms with facts or rationality. Sometimes I offer a contrary opinion in threads because the prevailing discussion is so far from being balanced or fair. I don't think that's trolling. I think that decent contrary opinions enrich a discussion.

 

What really doesn't help is when I make a comment departing from the norm, and immediately get multiple posters saying that I 'hate' Apple, that I'm 'deluded', a 'troll' and so on. There is a distinct tendency here for people to place everybody in either the 'loves Apple' or 'hates Apple' category. That attitude is unnecessarily binary and unnecessarily tribal - there is a very fertile middle ground between 'loves Apple' and 'hates Apple', and posters offering those views shouldn't be stereotyped 'Apple haters' when they're not.

 

I think that this kind of tribalism is often responsible for threads being derailed. Take this thread. I asked an early question about jailbreaking. All I was hoping for was a factual answer about the product which was the subject of the thread: could iOS 5.1.1 be jailbroken? Instead, I got multiple posters making it seem as if I was committing some crime by jailbreaking. I even got some fairly virulent personal attacks. It was as if, after mentioning jailbreaking, I was automatically in the 'anti-Apple camp' and was fair game. Of course, I defended myself, and the thread went completely off-topic.

 

I don't mind strict moderation. It keeps the signal-to-noise ratio in a forum up. But I can't accept that moderating decisions on dubious posts may be based upon which opinion of Apple is expressed. You need to respect a fair and rational opinion critical of Apple as you would respect one in favour of Apple.  Likewise, you need to deal with an unacceptable pro-Apple post as you would one criticising Apple.

 

Selectively suppressing voices holding a particular opinion is not moderation. It's censorship. Moderation encourages balanced, meaningful debate; censorship stifles it.


Edited by Euphonious - 5/24/12 at 6:09am
post #97 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

 

you forgot

 

3. iPhone users want to use their phone not spend all their time doing 'cool' tweaks on it to show folks how cool they are.

 

 

aka "Posers".

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post #98 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious View Post

I'll give you it from my perspective.

If I came onto AppleInsider and said 'I hate Apple, Apple products are all crap, Android FTW!' then that would be trolling, and you'd be quite right to ban me. There's no purpose to that sort of comment other than to wind people up.

But I never do that. When I criticise Apple, it is to point out that Apple gear is not perfect, or that competitors make good and popular products too. I try to support my criticisms with facts or rationality. Sometimes I offer a contrary opinion in threads because the prevailing discussion is so far from being balanced or fair. I don't think that's trolling. I think that decent contrary opinions enrich a discussion.

What really doesn't help is when I make a comment departing from the norm, and immediately get multiple posters saying that I 'hate' Apple, that I'm 'deluded', a 'troll' and so on. There is a distinct tendency here for people to place everybody in either the 'loves Apple' or 'hates Apple' category. That attitude is unnecessarily binary and unnecessarily tribal - there is a very fertile middle ground between 'loves Apple' and 'hates Apple', and posters offering those views shouldn't be stereotyped 'Apple haters' when they're not.

I think that this kind of tribalism is often responsible for threads being derailed. Take this thread. I asked an early question about jailbreaking. All I was hoping for was a factual answer about the product which was the subject of the thread: could iOS 5.1.1 be jailbroken? Instead, I got multiple posters making it seem as if I was committing some crime by jailbreaking. I even got some fairly virulent personal attacks. It was as if, after mentioning jailbreaking, I was automatically in the 'anti-Apple camp' and was fair game. Of course, I defended myself, and the thread went completely off-topic.

I don't mind strict moderation. It keeps the signal-to-noise ratio in a forum up. But I can't accept that moderating decisions on dubious posts may be based upon which opinion of Apple is expressed. You need to respect a fair and rational opinion critical of Apple as you would respect one in favour of Apple.  Likewise, you need to deal with an unacceptable pro-Apple post as you would one criticising Apple.

Selectively suppressing voices holding a particular opinion is not moderation. It's censorship. Moderation encourages balanced, meaningful debate; censorship stifles it.

That is, of course, a very inaccurate description of what happened.

You provided blanket comments that iOS was crap and refused to provide any backing for them when asked. It is often the case that people come here with no purpose other than to create flame wars and to spread outright FUD. Your post seemed to fall into that category.
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post #99 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyram Gestan View Post

 

The whole thing was stolen.  Google should think of their own ideas instead of stealing Apple's.  

 

And I don't care what some jury says.  Google stole Oracle's patented tech and infringed on their copyrights.

 

So no, you don't have any argument, only that you want to believe it

post #100 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyram Gestan View Post

 

The whole thing was stolen.  Google should think of their own ideas instead of stealing Apple's.  

 

And I don't care what some jury says.  Google stole Oracle's patented tech and infringed on their copyrights.


The jury agrees with you on the copyright front -- now that matter is back in front of the judge to see exactly where things go from here.

 

We'll see where the patent issue goes on appeal - and it certainly will be appealed.  But you ought to be careful when you make unqualified public statements accusing an entity of a criminal act - there is precedence in some common law countries that anonymous comments made on a web forum may constitute libel, and also precedence for forcing web hosting companies to divulge service logs necessary to determine the identity of people who made the potentially libelous statements.

post #101 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfmorrison View Post


The jury agrees with you on the copyright front -- now that matter is back in front of the judge to see exactly where things go from here.

 

We'll see where the patent issue goes on appeal - and it certainly will be appealed.  But you ought to be careful when you make unqualified public statements accusing an entity of a criminal act - there is precedence in some common law countries that anonymous comments made on a web forum may constitute libel, and also precedence for forcing web hosting companies to divulge service logs necessary to determine the identity of people who made the potentially libelous statements.

There was an example of that on the local news a few days ago. I believe it was a chiropractor suing an individual for false claims they made at a review site.

 

The newscaster used a restaurant review for an example of protected speech and where the line is. Perfectly OK to say you don't care for a restaurant's food or service in a restaurant review. But it's not protected speech to say there was a cockroach on your plate if there was not. 

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post #102 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

You provided blanket comments that iOS was crap

 

Even a rudimentary reading of my posts in that thread would indicate that I didn't make blanket statements about iOS being crap. I criticised specific features of iOS and explained why I didn't like them (in particular, the lack of 3G and wi-fi shortcuts in the Notification Center). Then, on that basis, you came steaming in and called me an 'Apple hater'.

 

I couldn't have asked for a better example to demonstrate my previous points than this. Your posts are a shining example of the 'binary' approach which divides everyone into lovers and haters. Your posts consistently misconstrue any critical commentary as evidence that the poster 'hates Apple'. Instead of rebutting particular criticisms of Apple, your posts frequently set up an army of straw men: they wildly misrepresent others' arguments and then seek to destroy an argument which never existed. 

 

Targeted criticism is very different to FUD. It eliminates any hope of meaningful debate when your posts repeatedly misrepresent one as the other. This is precisely why moderators' attention should not only be focused on critical posts.


Edited by Euphonious - 5/24/12 at 9:15am
post #103 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

 

I'm an iPhone and Android tablet user. I had iPad for couple of months, before getting Asus Transformer.

 

I found it refreshing not having to convert videos sitting on my home server to MP4 in order to watch it on tablet. This was (still is) non-issue for my phone, but I actually do enjoy dumping some old TV shows on my tablet whenever I travel, occasionally in my home as well.

 

I like having full control over Flash. With a few taps I can completely disable it (iPad style), enable it on demand (tap to play individual Flash) or have it enabled all the time. I like having access to basically any video on the web, without having to think is it HTML5 or Flash. Again, it isn't issue for my phone - screen is too small to really enjoy videos - but I'm finding it really nice to have on a tablet.

 

I am not missing any app I have on iPhone (so far) - I managed to find same or comparable apps on Android Market. I do have simple app I am finding useful on occasion on Android, unfortunately one Apple has removed from AppStore - WiFi Analyzer.

 

I also like presence of SD cards, and not having to use iTunes or any other software to copy files to/from tablet. WiFi access to shared folders on my home server is also nice, so I can copy ebook/comic/TV show/... over wifi, at my leisure, without moving my lazy ... from my fave recliner.

 

Just to name a few.

 

I enjoyed iPad, but I'm finding my Android experience more complete. My Transformer came with Android 3.x which was a bit sluggish and jerky, however ICS is nice and smooth. I haven't done any direct comparison, but I'd say it still isn't as smooth as iOS - however it is smooth enough not to be distracting in any way. Asus has released 3 or 4 ICS updates since initial release (was it in early March..?), with last one, recently released, finally fixing bugs I had a problem with on initial ICS.

 

Now, this is my mileage. Your mileage might - likely will differ. That's why I'm finding your question a bit unfair. You might find anything and everything above non-essential for you. But you might also find something else that I don't care for... so you should basically ask yourself that question, and if there is anything you have been missing and would like to have on tablet that is available on Android, that would be the answer to your question.

 

If your tablet is completely satisfying your needs, and you are not curious (or just don't want to waste time) finding out what else is out there, why, then you really shouldn't bother checking Android. Nor should you be asking such question.


I have been an iPad user since day 1. I am not embarrassed to say that some of the capabilities/functionality described by this poster are desirable.

post #104 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

The only problem is with your logic...  Apple is self-motivated to provide the solutions that they desire -- they aren't driven by competitors.

Apple are motivated to make money. To state that they take no drive from their competitors is nonsense. Why all the litigation? Why the Android app drawer for notifications?

 

Not flaming - but this whole "Apple works from within, to pursue a purist design/usability philosophy" is bollocks. Maybe years ago, certainly not now. They make money, like every other company. And like very other company, they watch their competitors like a hawk.

post #105 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoobs View Post

Ugh, really?

 

1 - This isn't a democracy - this is a privately owned internet discussion forum, their site, their rules, their judgement. You agree to this when you sign up.

 

2 - This is an Apple-centric discussion site. Not Android. No, really. Not Android. We know this. Your hint is in the domain name.

 

3 - By and large, we simply don't care about whatever the new Android phone megawidget is or does. You paid your money, you made your choice. So did we. Some of us have used just about every mobile system out there at one point or another, and we still prefer the iOS platform. That doesn't make us stupid, sheep, cool, satanic or any other label that some might want to hang around our necks. It's a phone/media device/tablet, get over it.

 

4 - Google/Bing/Yahoo/etc is only a click/swipe/voice command away - use it if you don't like Apple/Appleinsider/Moderators/The opinions/Members/Colors/Fonts whatever. There are other more applicable forums out there for you to join.

 

5 - Don't worry about it - there's more to life ;)

 

Well said!

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post #106 of 157

I remember a long while back when everyone slammed me for saying Florian Mueller was wrong and a troll.  Just like he was in the SCO case.


I'm glad that ridiculous shill is eating humble pie today.  I wouldn't have a problem with him if he just flat out admitted to being a fanboy.  Instead he calls his blog FOSS and gets quoted in the media like some kind of actual expert, instead of the troll/fanboy that he is.

 

Forget the Android-iOS fanboy wars.  This lawsuit was just wrong.  And had it gone through, it would have utterly destroyed the foundations of  Java itself (who'd touch it knowing that Oracle is just waiting to sue when you make something profitable with it?).

 

As for all those who loudly proclaimed that Larry Ellison was going to destroy Android?  Well, guess today is not your day.  And it was never going to be, even if Google lost.  Ellison's like money more than he hates Android.  He's not Steve Jobs.

post #107 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

Well said!

 

Of course, the owners have absolute rights to determine what is acceptable and unacceptable on their site.

 

My posts have been based on the premise that the owners of a discussion forum would prefer that it was used for open discussion, and not simply as a venue to praise Apple continuously and attack people who don't.

 

The latter isn't 'discussion' at all - it's just a group of people propounding the same recycled view repeatedly. It would be like a debate or Congress with only one party allowed to speak - pointless.


Edited by Euphonious - 5/24/12 at 10:40am
post #108 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerMach View Post


I have been an iPad user since day 1. I am not embarrassed to say that some of the capabilities/functionality described by this poster are desirable.

I am in the same boat as you, and in fact commented in a similar fashion regarding nikon's post. I found his post to be both respectful and well thought out. The flame wars simply get old.

post #109 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by majjo View Post

For the lawsuit that was proclaimed to be the 'death of android,' this sure fizzled out embarrassingly for Oracle. I was honestly expecting a ruling more in their (Oracle's) favor; though I fear that such a ruling, especially on the copyright portion would have had drastic effects on the industry as a whole.

 

I'm surprised they outright cancelled the damages phase of the lawsuit. I would've expected at least a show trial for Oracle, considering they did get a pretty clear ruling on the infringement of the 9 lines of code in the rangeCheck function.

 

 

 

As someone who has used both iOS and Android, the similarities end with the App drawer. And how can I take you seriously when you claim that WebOS is not a copy of iOS while Android is, considering that WebOS devices share so much more in common with iOS devices than Android does.

 

 

Thank you.  The myth has truly taken on epic levels.  iOS users who never used anything else assume that Android is a copy because it's touchscreen and Steve Jobs told them so.  Android was a lot closer to Symbian at launch than it was to iOS.  And iOS is damn close to WebOS (err....minus the card system). 

 

The ignorants who equate the two focus on the App Drawer.  Like you say, the similarities end there.  And with every new version of Android, that difference gets even larger.  How is ICS anything like iOS?  Other than both being touch?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

 

It;s not so much the validity of Android as an OS...

 

 

Do you buy things and associate yourself with those who can't be trusted or respected?
 
 

'Twas an evening in October, I'll confess I wasn't sober,

 I was carting home a load with manly pride, When my feet began to stutter and I fell into the gutter, And a pig came up and lay down by my side.
 Then I lay there in the gutter and my heart was all a-flutter, A high-toned lady, passing by, did chance to say: "You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses," Then the pig got up and slowly walked away.     Walked away, walked away,     He was really too particular to stay.     "You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses,"     Then the pig got up and slowly walked away.
 

 

Wow.  So just because some CEO you never met said he doesn't like something, you automatically assume that people who buy said product are associating themselves with people who can't be trusted or respected?  Tell me, when did you stop thinking for yourself and letting Apple executives make all decisions for you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyram Gestan View Post

 

 

All that this means is that Apple gets to kill off Android instead of Oracle.  It is a stolen OS.  

 

He who laughs last laughs best!  I'm glad that Google is still alive so that Apple can be the one to kill them.

 

Meh.  It means that Apple will have to come to terms with Android's existence.  Apple won't be killing Android anytime soon.  If they had a magic bullet they would have used it by now.  Instead, they keep going after the OEMs, just like MS.  At least Oracle had the cajones to go after Google....

 

But like I've said before.  In general, I find these fanboy arguments stupid and pedantic.  Really.  How many of you actually live an Apple only existence?  I use a Windows computer at work.  At Android phone. An iPad, an Apple TV and an iMac at home.  There are advantages and disadvantages to all those devices.  And I fail to see why anybody would want one particular ecosystem killed off.

post #110 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaramanga89 View Post

Apple are motivated to make money. To state that they take no drive from their competitors is nonsense. Why all the litigation? Why the Android app drawer for notifications?

 

Not flaming - but this whole "Apple works from within, to pursue a purist design/usability philosophy" is bollocks. Maybe years ago, certainly not now. They make money, like every other company. And like very other company, they watch their competitors like a hawk.

 

The goal of business is to make a profit at the risk of a loss -- and that is Apple's ultimate objective.

 

What differentiates Apple is how they go about attaining that goal.   Apple choses to look around and see what they can do to makes things better/easier than the existing way.  They certainly look at what others are doing -- if there are any competitors.  But they don't engage in spec or feature wars -- it's more of "let's offer a better solution or a new solution where none existed before." 

 

The words "better solution" are key to understanding how Apple competes to attain their overall profit goal.

 

I have been dealing * with Apple for 34 years (since April 1978) and almost without exception, Apple's successes  and failures ** have been in pursuit of a "better solution".

 

* as a customer, observer, reseller, evangelist, vendor,  developer, co-developer in a joint project...

 

** Apple I, Apple ][, Apple ///, Lisa, Mac, LaserWriter, AppleTalk, Newton, MiniFloppy-->MicroFloppy-->CD-->DVD-->No ODD-->SSD evolution, WiFii/Bonjour,  iMac, MacBook, OS X / Darwin, MacDraw/MacWrite/MacPaint, Final Cut, iPod, iTunes, iTunes Store, iWork, iLife, Intel Macs, Airport, FireWire/USB, iPhone, iOS, iPad,  Retina Displays, AppleTV, Thunderbolt, OpenCL & GCD, AirPrint, AirPlay, Siri... and to the masses: GUI, Mouse, Multitouch, Intuitive Interface, Plug-and-play, iTools--->iCloud, it just works, there is no step 3...

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post #111 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious View Post

 

Of course, the owners have absolute rights to determine what is acceptable and unacceptable on their site.

 

My posts have been based on the premise that the owners of a discussion forum would prefer that it was used for open discussion, and not simply as a venue to praise Apple continuously and attack people who don't.

 

The latter isn't 'discussion' at all - it's just a group of people propounding the same recycled view repeatedly. It's like a debate or Congress with only one party allowed to speak - pointless.

 

I think you will find that most of the regulars here are Apple proponents... but they feel free to express their opinion when Apple does something wrong or just stupid.  We all, Apple included, make our fair share of mistakes.

 

Many of us come here seeking reasoned discussions on topics of interest to Apple proponents.  Sometimes we take the opportunity to banter or poke fun at one another or Apple's competition.

 

Periodically, there will be an influx (tsunami) of new (or infrequent) posters.  This usually coincides with an announcement of a new product or difficulty associated with Apple or its competitors.

 

This is such a thread!

 

These posters, essentially:  pop in;  poop;   and pop out.  Their purpose appears to have an agenda to:  hijack the thread;  muddy the waters;  spread FUD...

 

We call them trolls.

 

Here are your stats:

 

 

  • Joined: Jan 2011
  • Location: London, UK
  • Posts: 129

 

 

In over a year you have made 129 posts -- by my count you have made 10 posts to this thread

 

Your first post to this thread was to assert that the moderator should not consider the following post by @AndroidUser as trolling.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndroidUser View Post
Android doesn't look anywhere near iOS or the feel of a crappy iOS product. This is because Android is OPEN for changes all the time from it's users to make the OS better from one release after another. 
 

 

Your other posts were defending his/your right to post opinions to an open forum.

 

 

My points:

 

-- this is not an open forum

-- as an opening post,  @AndroidUser is trolling IMO

-- the follow-on posts (including this one) have served to hijack this thread

-- it looks like  @AndroidUser was successful

 

 

What is your purpose here?

 


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 5/24/12 at 11:13am
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post #112 of 157

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

Your first post to this thread was to assert that the moderator should not consider the following post by @AndroidUser as trolling.

 

That isn't quite true. I wasn't saying that AndroidUser's post wasn't trolling - it was. What I was saying was that similar derogatory posts are made about Android on a regular basis - and that just as they are trolling when they're about iOS, they are also trolling when they're about Android. Basically, trolling should not be accepted whether pro-Apple or anti-Apple. Moderation should be impartial.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

What is your purpose here?

 

To the extent that a contributor to a forum must have a 'purpose'... mine is to discuss Apple and Apple products in a fair, balanced and unprejudiced fashion.

 

If some of my recent posts have appeared anti-Apple, it is because that's what I've considered necessary to restore fairness and balance. I am a technology enthusiast first and an Apple enthusiast second, and where criticisms of Android are made which are plainly untrue or unfair, I am no more inclined to let them stand than I would be with false criticisms of Apple.

 

I suppose what I'm mainly looking for is objectivity and balance in discussion. Perhaps that has brought me into conflict with some people whose attitude to Apple is unashamedly not objective or balanced.

post #113 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious View Post

 

If some of my recent posts have appeared anti-Apple, it is because that's what I've considered necessary to restore fairness and balance. I am a technology enthusiast first and an Apple enthusiast second, and where criticisms of Android are made which are plainly untrue or unfair, I am no more inclined to let them stand than I would be with false criticisms of Apple.

 

To balance out your post...

 

I have absolutely no problem with false criticism of Android.

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post #114 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

 

To balance out your post...

 

I have absolutely no problem with false criticism of Android.

 

lol.giflol.giflol.gif

 

Actually, you are one of the fair-minded members on these forums...

 

There is a question whether what Google did with Android is:  1) illegal;  2) unethical;  3) bad business....

 

 

For me. I am thankful for what Google did...   It made me take a closer look at what motivates them to take the decisions the do.   I do not like what I found and will act accordingly --  and that has nothing to do with the quality of Android as an OS.

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post #115 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious View Post

 

That isn't quite true. I wasn't saying that AndroidUser's post wasn't trolling - it was. What I was saying was that similar derogatory posts are made about Android on a regular basis - and that just as they are trolling when they're about iOS, they are also trolling when they're about Android. Basically, trolling should not be accepted whether pro-Apple or anti-Apple. Moderation should be impartial.

 

 

To the extent that a contributor to a forum must have a 'purpose'... mine is to discuss Apple and Apple products in a fair, balanced and unprejudiced fashion.

 

If some of my recent posts have appeared anti-Apple, it is because that's what I've considered necessary to restore fairness and balance. I am a technology enthusiast first and an Apple enthusiast second, and where criticisms of Android are made which are plainly untrue or unfair, I am no more inclined to let them stand than I would be with false criticisms of Apple.

 

I suppose what I'm mainly looking for is objectivity and balance in discussion. Perhaps that has brought me into conflict with some people whose attitude to Apple is unashamedly not objective or balanced.

 

 

Fair enough!  I think that you will find most members here are similarly motivated.

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post #116 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by androiduser3 View Post
And stop deleting my accounts, it's not like you can stop me from coming back with another name, lol.

 

We'll take that bet. We've taken down bigger psychopaths than you in the past.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

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post #117 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by androiduser3 View Post

I like how there is no such thing as freedom of speech on here without hurting someone's feelings and everyone gets butt hurt whenever I comment or post something negative about Apple, iOS, or it's people. Grow up people and take criticism openly instead of attacking me because I'm not a fan of Apple products. And stop deleting my accounts, it's not like you can stop me from coming back with another name, lol.

You want to talk rights? You don't have rights to crap all over a *privately owned forum*.

You could also take your own advice, grow up and stop attacking Apple products and other people using juvenile terms.
Edited by JeffDM - 5/24/12 at 12:16pm
post #118 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

We'll take that bet. We've taken down bigger psychopaths than you in the past.

 

I'm half serious with this, but I'd go out on a limb and suggest that user names reminiscent of controversial topics could be discouraged in the TOS, if not even prevented by using a custom dictionary.

post #119 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Your Honeycomb claim is incorrect. Honeycomb source code was released several months ago. Personally I chalk the delay up to Amazon developing a forked Android version for their Kindle Fire tablet and Google not wanting to make it overly easy to grab their tablet-specific build. Once the Kindle was released the Honeycomb source code was suddenly available. No proof that one was related to the other, but given the timing and the poorly explained delayed release of that specific version it seems pretty likely to me.

 

Too, Amazon's success with using Google's Gingerbread build is proof that the full source code was available. Without it they wouldn't have been able to fork a compatible version of their own.  Add the unauthorized Chinese builds, B&N custom build for the Nook, and assorted off-brand tablets (Coby, etc.) lacking Google services for more proof that published build-able source code has been available all along. So that claim of yours is also wrong.

 

As for your third claim that much of the Android source code will never be available, part of the approval stipulation for Google's purchase of Motorola Mobility is that the code will be freely available and remain open for at least the next 5 years. If you have some evidence that the complete Android builds aren't available and never will be I'd love to see it. 

 

IMO, Android is open-source. If some vendor wishes to use it without Google's approval they most certainly can, and Google has never given any indication to the contrary.

Only the GPL'd portions of Honeycomb were made available.

 

As I wrote, I work very closely with other members of the team to get android on the Samsung Captivate so I'm aware of what is and is not included in the source drops. If you require further evidence for what I'm saying you can either take Google's own statements on the subject or download the source and look through it yourself.

 

Android is open-source, but it's licensed under apache instead of the GPL. The reason it's relicensed under apache is so that someone can take the code, make additions, and then keep it proprietary. This is all stated on their AOSP FAQ; page nothing I am pointing out here is hidden, controversial, or even inappropriate. The problem is that in order to relicense android under apache they had to delink the base from the GPL and the process to do that is where they have found themselves on questionable legal grounds. For all its open-ness the GPL is an extremely strict and complicated license. It has to be because it unwinds roughly a hundred years of legal assumptions and rewraps it into a package that can not be copyrighted and made proprietary throughout its entire derivatives. It's rather surprising that an open-source proponent would view what has happened in any good way.

 

What we find is that consumers taken by Google's marketing spiel, like yourself, consider this in line with open source ideals whereas developers, like myself, have to deal with the frustration of this orwellian double-speak about being "open" as we struggle to get it onto devices that are sometimes only a few months old.

 

In fact, it's interesting that you use two successful ventures that forked android to buttress your claim as to the "open-ness" of android but completely miss the fact that had they been able to do this prior to Google's relicensing trick they would have.

post #120 of 157

I'm not sure exactly what your claim is. ICS source code was released in November. There are Chinese manufacturers who started offering Android devices with Android 4.x as the OS not long after that. I'm no doubt you know much more on the subject than I do, so perhaps you could explain how the code release wasn't complete enough for a 3rd party to build the OS.  BTW, the last sentence lost me completely so perhaps you could re-word it.

 

I don't mind at all being advised I'm incorrect. The day's not complete unless I learn something new.

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2011/11/google-makes-android-4-source-code-available/

 

At least we do agree on one thing in the meantime: Android is open-source. :)

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