or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Apple says DoJ lawsuit 'fundamentally flawed,' could harm consumers
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Apple says DoJ lawsuit 'fundamentally flawed,' could harm consumers - Page 3

post #81 of 151

I think a good argument for Apple could be:

 

DOJ's assertion of e-books prices increase as the result of collusion is flawed and incorrect.

 

There was no collusion and the prices increased are due to popularity of e-books, the result of Apple's entrance into the market with an Agency model, the draw of Apple's premium brand image, and the popularity of iPad.

post #82 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I haven't ever seen proof that Amazon was losing money on it's eBook segment. They reportedly sold some best-sellers for under cost, but eBooks as a whole? Never seen it, so if you have some citation for the claim it would be helpful support for the argument.

OK. So your argument that a best seller went from $9.99 to $15.99 is irrelevant. Some eBooks went from $9.99 to $5.99, too.

So where's the data on what happened to the AVERAGE ebook price? I've only seen one report and it was from a single publisher so it's merely anecdotal. They reported that their average selling price went down (and volume went up significantly). If you're going to continue to claim that Apple caused eBook prices to increase, you need data to support it - and picking just best sellers won't do since other books went down. So where's the data to back up your accusations?
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
post #83 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


OK. So your argument that a best seller went from $9.99 to $15.99 is irrelevant. Some eBooks went from $9.99 to $5.99, too.
So where's the data on what happened to the AVERAGE ebook price? I've only seen one report and it was from a single publisher so it's merely anecdotal. They reported that their average selling price went down (and volume went up significantly). If you're going to continue to claim that Apple caused eBook prices to increase, you need data to support it - and picking just best sellers won't do since other books went down. So where's the data to back up your accusations?

When you can quote "my claim" that Apple caused eBook prices to go up I'll be happy to respond. In the meantime I'm sure there's some legitimate discussions you can take part in rather than making stuff up once again. It's dishonest of you.

 

BTW, if you've only seen one anecdotal report on average eBook prices you very obviously didn't bother following my links in an earlier post. Perhaps you should read/research more and write less until you've caught up. 

melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #84 of 151
I'm with Myapplelove on everything. I've been buying ebooks for years, and the price hikes of the big six is the problem. I was about to buy an ebook for a 2001 book seen http://amzn.to/KSfegJ

The paper back is 9.44 but the ebook version is 13.99. Why would anyone want to pay that big of a price difference?

Amazon is also kind enough to let you know the publisher set this ridulous price.

Amazon wasn't the only one discounting, fictionwise also had a very nice discount program and they were much smaller and in the ebook game longer then even Amazon.

Amazon had a few loss leaders to push people to the expensive kindles, now they have reversed this and sell the hardware cheaper. This was normally the release of best sellers, it wasn't all titles and after the book had been out a while it often went off sell.

I think once any company pays the publishers asking price then if they want to run a sell on it then they should be able to.

As to borders, they were late to the ebook game, their lack of vision is hardly Amazon's fault.
post #85 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synergi View Post

I'm with Myapplelove on everything. I've been buying ebooks for years, and the price hikes of the big six is the problem. I was about to buy an ebook for a 2001 book seen [=http://amzn.to/KSfegJ]here[/] The paper back is 9.44 but the ebook version is 13.99. Why would anyone want to pay that big of a price difference?
Amazon is also kind enough to let you know the publisher set this ridulous price.

You have it exactly backwards. In Amazon's model, it is Amazon who sets the price. Apple's model is the one where the publisher sets the price.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
post #86 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

You have it exactly backwards. In Amazon's model, it is Amazon who sets the price. Apple's model is the one where the publisher sets the price.

Not sure how I'm wrong. Amazon paid the publisher the price they asked for, then set their own pricing.

Now the publisher has a ebook set at 14.00 dollars while it's paperback version is under ten. That's a big difference and hardly matches the quote of the consumer paying just a little bit more.
post #87 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by winstein2010 View Post

I think a good argument for Apple could be:

DOJ's assertion of e-books prices increase as the result of collusion is flawed and incorrect.

There was no collusion and the prices increased are due to popularity of e-books, the result of Apple's entrance into the market with an Agency model, the draw of Apple's premium brand image, and the popularity of iPad.

So why did a few publishers settle immediately when the lawsuit was announced?
They didn't even wait to see what the doj had on them. I'm not saying Apple was actively involved but they were indirectly involved. I see no problem with the agency model, the problem arises when one model conflicts with another.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #88 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

You have it exactly backwards. In Amazon's model, it is Amazon who sets the price. Apple's model is the one where the publisher sets the price.

But in Apple's model the price has to be bumped up 30% to cover Apple's cut, if they match Amazon's price then they'll only make $6.99 per ebook vs the $9 99 Amazon pays for it. You're all afraid of what Amazon might do but I'd be more afraid of what Apple has done in the past and set a price and tell the industry take it or don't do business with us.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #89 of 151
Excuse me, but Amazon matched them quite easily.
post #90 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorotea9999 View Post

Excuse me, but Amazon matched them quite easily.

Its easy to match a higher price.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #91 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

But in Apple's model the price has to be bumped up 30% to cover Apple's cut, if they match Amazon's price then they'll only make $6.99 per ebook vs the $9 99 Amazon pays for it. You're all afraid of what Amazon might do but I'd be more afraid of what Apple has done in the past and set a price and tell the industry take it or don't do business with us.

Still waiting for you to provide evidence that the average price of ebooks to the consumer increased after Apple entered the market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synergi View Post

Not sure how I'm wrong. Amazon paid the publisher the price they asked for, then set their own pricing.
Now the publisher has a ebook set at 14.00 dollars while it's paperback version is under ten. That's a big difference and hardly matches the quote of the consumer paying just a little bit more.

You had it wrong (and still do) because you think that the publisher sets the price that the consumer sees in the Amazon model. They do not.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
post #92 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post
You had it wrong (and still do) because you think that the publisher sets the price that the consumer sees in the Amazon model. They do not.

For the "best-sellers", as identified by 5 of the 6 publishers, that price you saw at Amazon may in fact be the publisher's minimum selling price, and something Amazon had no option to reduce. So yes, in effect some of the best-seller prices Amazon advertised were set by the publishers. Amazon could sell for a higher price than the publisher-established price but not less.

 

I don't know if anything has yet changed with 3 of the 5 agreeing to a DoJ settlement already as I don't personally buy eBooks.  In any case the combination of the agency model with "most favored nations" clause wrapped up with it took some of Amazon's price options away, forcing them at best to advertise the same minimum prices as Apple or any other reseller could on a group of best-selling titles. 


Edited by Gatorguy - 5/24/12 at 10:07am
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #93 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

For the "best-sellers", as identified by 5 of the 6 publishers, that price you saw at Amazon may in fact be the publisher's minimum selling price, and something Amazon had no option to reduce. So yes, in effect some of the best-seller prices Amazon advertised were set by the publishers. Amazon could sell for a higher price than the publisher-established price but not less.

I don't know if anything has yet changed with 3 of the 5 agreeing to a DoJ settlement already as I don't personally buy eBooks.  In any case the combination of the agency model with "most favored nations" clause wrapped up with it took some of Amazon's price options away, forcing them at best to advertise the same minimum prices as Apple or any other reseller could on a group of best-selling titles. 

Still waiting for evidence backing your claims. For example, where is the evidence to show that the publisher sets a minimum selling price that Amazon can't violate? And how do you reconcile that with the fact that it is known that Amazon sells some books below cost?

And, most importantly, I'm still waiting for that evidence that the average eBook price has gone up since Apple entered the market.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
post #94 of 151

Jragosta, it's pretty common knowledge that those publishers were alleged to have set a minimum floor price of between $12.99 and $14.99 on what they determined to be "Best-sellers". You've read the same sources and are well aware of that (or should be). 

 

As for some evidence that average eBook prices had gone up, don't look for me to give you one. My linked sources, and the claim I made, was that had marginally gone down since 2007. Why do you bother planting false statements attributed to members? If you don't have anything honest to add to a discussion there's no forum rules that require you to post.

 

EDIT: If you truly are confused about the allegations rather than being dishonest (again!), TheVerge had a pretty good synopsis. You should take a couple of minutes and read it.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/4/11/2941053/inside-the-dojs-ebook-price-fixing-case-against-apple-an-analysis


Edited by Gatorguy - 5/24/12 at 10:44am
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #95 of 151

The big publishing houses use new, popular titles to generate a significant amount of revenue - which is why new releases are higher priced than classics or older popular releases - no one in this forum should be unfamiliar with that fact. Which is why many of these are released in hardbound version first with the paperback being released some weeks down stream.

 

What was happening in the case of Amazon is the fact that the publishers were holding back popular titles from Amazon, because of the pricing model Amazon was using. So Amazon wasn't pricing premium content, just less popular content (which judging from some of the commentary here is a preferred category anyway) aggressively. Since there is a tipping point between price and popularity, Amazon was trying to leverage that to drive traffic and uptake on their ereader devices. The publishing houses had little choice in who to go to for epub format book sales it was substantially Amazon and few other large retailers. This allowed Amazon to use a predatory pricing technique based on their control of a majority of the market.

 

Enter Apple. They want to be able to provide epub content at reasonable prices (because having to charge a lot for them would slow uptake - witness their approach on iTunes for music). In order to level the playing field with Amazon, they went straight to the source - the large publishing houses. The plan is simple: we support you setting the prices to what you feel is competitively profitable for you, everyone gets the same pricing scheme without favoritism. No one gets to drastically undercut anyone else, everyone gets to play by the same rules.

 

Not a bad situation unless you are a rabid consumer of "paperback" level literature and have been enjoying Amazon's predatory pricing, and now have to pay a price that allows more money to support less popular titles and writers and allows a potentially more diverse authoring environment. Witness Amazon's scramble to lock down as much epub content as they can prior to the trial. They may suspect it won't go the way they want, so those of you crowing about the loveliness of Amazon's pricing will soon find that those sources they lock down will belong to Amazon to price as they see fit.

If you are going to insist on being an ass, at least demonstrate the intelligence to be a smart one
Reply
If you are going to insist on being an ass, at least demonstrate the intelligence to be a smart one
Reply
post #96 of 151

Personally, it's an interesting case to watch.  I think Apple has a leg to stand on, as I think DOJ has a leg to stand on.  I'm not convinced we've seen all of the evidence, but with what we've seen so far, I think it's a 51/49 call in Apple's favor.  

post #97 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlevier View Post

Personally, it's an interesting case to watch.  I think Apple has a leg to stand on, as I think DOJ has a leg to stand on.  I'm not convinced we've seen all of the evidence, but with what we've seen so far, I think it's a 51/49 call in Apple's favor.  

 

Would you still think so if Apple settles out of court?

post #98 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synergi View Post

I'm with Myapplelove on everything. I've been buying ebooks for years, and the price hikes of the big six is the problem. I was about to buy an ebook for a 2001 book seen http://amzn.to/KSfegJ
The paper back is 9.44 but the ebook version is 13.99. Why would anyone want to pay that big of a price difference?
Amazon is also kind enough to let you know the publisher set this ridulous price.
Amazon wasn't the only one discounting, fictionwise also had a very nice discount program and they were much smaller and in the ebook game longer then even Amazon.
Amazon had a few loss leaders to push people to the expensive kindles, now they have reversed this and sell the hardware cheaper. This was normally the release of best sellers, it wasn't all titles and after the book had been out a while it often went off sell.
I think once any company pays the publishers asking price then if they want to run a sell on it then they should be able to.
As to borders, they were late to the ebook game, their lack of vision is hardly Amazon's fault.

 

That's the great thing about competition and product differentiation. You don't actually have to buy anything besides food (and sometimes water). E-books are a convenience and if you don't like the pricing you can buy a real book, or an audiobook, or nothing at all.

 
 
 
 
 
 

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply
post #99 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Still waiting for you to provide evidence that the average price of ebooks to the consumer increased after Apple entered the market.
You had it wrong (and still do) because you think that the publisher sets the price that the consumer sees in the Amazon model. They do not.

If you bought ebooks you wouldn't have to keep asking people who do to provide you with proof. The publishers themselves said they make LESS with this model, not more.

 

The publisher now, does set the prices, not amazon. They took amazon's control away to sell prices. Note, I said now.

 

Under the old wholesale model, the publisher set a whole sale price for a book. Amazon, paid what the publisher asked for then sold it for whatever price they wanted.

 

This isn't about the value of Ebooks, its about the value of protecting Hard cover prices..

post #100 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Jragosta, it's pretty common knowledge that those publishers were alleged to have set a minimum floor price of between $12.99 and $14.99 on what they determined to be "Best-sellers". You've read the same sources and are well aware of that (or should be). 

 

As for some evidence that average eBook prices had gone up, don't look for me to give you one. My linked sources, and the claim I made, was that had marginally gone down since 2007. Why do you bother planting false statements attributed to members? If you don't have anything honest to add to a discussion there's no forum rules that require you to post.

 

EDIT: If you truly are confused about the allegations rather than being dishonest (again!), TheVerge had a pretty good synopsis. You should take a couple of minutes and read it.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/4/11/2941053/inside-the-dojs-ebook-price-fixing-case-against-apple-an-analysis

 

Current NYT best sellers list:-

 

 

COMBINED PRINT & E-BOOK FICTION

  1. FIFTY SHADES OF GREY, by E. L. James
  2. FIFTY SHADES DARKER, by E. L. James
  3. FIFTY SHADES FREED, by E. L. James
  4. 11TH HOUR, by James Patterson and Maxine Paetro
  5. THE LAST BOYFRIEND, by Nora Roberts

 

iBooks price of the No 1

 

http://itunes.apple.com/us/book/fifty-shades-of-grey/id509857961?mt=11

 

No 2

 

http://itunes.apple.com/us/book/fifty-shades-darker/id509841099?mt=11

 

No 3

 

http://itunes.apple.com/us/book/fifty-shades-freed/id509841154?mt=11

 

Amazon price of the No 1

 

http://www.amazon.com/Fifty-Shades-Grey-Book-Trilogy/dp/0345803485

 

No 2

 

http://www.amazon.com/Fifty-Shades-Darker-Book-Trilogy/dp/0345803493

 

No 3

 

http://www.amazon.com/Fifty-Shades-Freed-Three-Trilogy/dp/0345803507

 

So what's the f**king issue?

Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
post #101 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

 

Would you still think so if Apple settles out of court?

 

They won't as they have done nothing wrong.

 

They also have the financial resources and legal strength to stand up for themselves.

Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
post #102 of 151

None of those were published by the 5 publishers who set agency pricing with a companion MFN clause were they? So no price controls are in place on those titles. Pretty sure I already had that discussion with you.

 

...and FWIW I don't have an issue with it either. I don't buy eBooks and not making any complaints.

melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #103 of 151

Those are Random House books. Random House was the only publisher of the big six that ''at first'' refuse to join the agency pricing model. They did later join and got into iBooks after they did. But its because they were against it in the beginning that they aren't a part of this lawsuit. 

post #104 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synergi View Post

Those are Random House books. Random House was the only publisher of the big six that ''at first'' refuse to join the agency pricing model. They did later join and got into iBooks after they did. But its because they were against it in the beginning that they aren't a part of this lawsuit. 

 

The contention is that Apple somehow caused eBook prices to rise which is bad for consumers.

 

There has been no evidence on the effect on average prices of eBooks of Apple's entry into the market so the scope was narrowed to "best sellers" based on anecdotal evidence.

 

Now that I have shown that "best sellers" ARE still $9.99 the scope is further narrowed to only include specific publishers.

 

So what is it exactly that is wrong here, as it seems like a normal competitive market.

 

The DoJ seems to have no idea when it comes to the factual basis of law, they have succumbed to the emotional rantings of a small subset of eBook consumers using a legally worthless, cherry picked price list of examples.

 

The local jewellery store charges more for a Rolex than they do for a Seiko maybe the DoJ should examine this anti-competitive behaviour.


Edited by hill60 - 5/24/12 at 4:20pm
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
post #105 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

None of those were published by the 5 publishers who set agency pricing with a companion MFN clause were they? So no price controls are in place on those titles. Pretty sure I already had that discussion with you.

 

...and FWIW I don't have an issue with it either. I don't buy eBooks and not making any complaints.

 

They are best sellers, the issue is Apple caused the price of best seller eBooks to rise, clearly they did not, especially so as THEY DON'T SET THE PRICE.

 

Publishers do and they are obviously free to set it at whatever they want.

Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
post #106 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

The contention is that Apple somehow caused eBook prices to rise which is bad for consumers.

There has been no evidence on the effect on average prices of eBooks of Apple's entry into the market so the scope was narrowed to "best sellers" based on anecdotal evidence.

Now that I have shown that "best sellers" ARE still $9.99 the scope is further narrowed to only include specific publishers.

So what is it exactly that is wrong here, as it seems like a normal competitive market.

The DoJ seems to have no idea when it comes to the factual basis of law, they have succumbed to the emotional rantings of a small subset of eBook consumers using a legally worthless, cherry picked price list of examples.

The local jewellery store charges more for a Rolex than they do for a Seiko maybe the DoJ should examine this anti-competitive behaviour.

Its amazing what the well read and undoubtedly rich can accomplish, isnt it?

BTW you're jewelry store analogy was a bit asinine, the same can be said of just about everything sold in stores.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #107 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

BTW you're jewelry store analogy was a bit asinine, the same can be said of just about everything sold in stores.

 

Such as eBooks sold in stores where publishers set the price?

 

Well yes, the DoJ's actions are rather asinine.

Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
post #108 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

The contention is that Apple somehow caused eBook prices to rise which is bad for consumers.

There has been no evidence on the effect on average prices of eBooks of Apple's entry into the market so the scope was narrowed to "best sellers" based on anecdotal evidence.

Now that I have shown that "best sellers" ARE still $9.99 the scope is further narrowed to only include specific publishers.

So what is it exactly that is wrong here, as it seems like a normal competitive market.

The DoJ seems to have no idea when it comes to the factual basis of law, they have succumbed to the emotional rantings of a small subset of eBook consumers using a legally worthless, cherry picked price list of examples.

The local jewellery store charges more for a Rolex than they do for a Seiko maybe the DoJ should examine this anti-competitive behaviour.

There are no "most favored nation" clauses in a competitive market. Apple is seeking a static market not a dynamic one. Prices will remain high.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #109 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

There are no "most favored nation" clauses in a competitive market. Apple is seeking a static market not a dynamic one. Prices will remain high.

Rubbish:-

a) under which precise statute

and

b) the examples I gave using the current three Best Sellers clearly show that:-

i) Amazon is charging a slightly lower price which is less than the $9.99 they used to charge.

ii) prices in the iBooks store vary depending on what the PUBLISHER WANTS TO CHARGE.

The DoJ has NOTHING on Apple.
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
post #110 of 151

Hill60, you're either truly confused about the allegations or purposely being misleading.

 

Mixing  titles and pricing from publishers not included in the DoJ claims to prove those 5 publishers named by the DoJ aren't/weren't setting minimum pricing on their titles?? How does one prove the other?

 

Of course the DoJ hasn't proven anything yet in a court of law, so simply because they say something happened a certain way doesn't make it necessarily true. With that said, you sir seem to have a complete lack of knowledge concerning the allegations based on what you consider proof of innocence.

 

The earlier link I posted is a basic rundown if you honestly just missed what the charges were all about. You should read it.

 

http://www.theverge.com/2012/4/11/2941053/inside-the-dojs-ebook-price-fixing-case-against-apple-an-analysis

melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #111 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Hill60, you're either truly confused about the allegations or purposely being misleading.

 

Mixing  titles and pricing from publishers not included in the DoJ claims to prove those 5 publishers named by the DoJ aren't/weren't setting minimum pricing on their titles?? How does one prove the other?

 

Of course the DoJ hasn't proven anything yet in a court of law, so simply because they say something happened a certain way doesn't make it necessarily true. With that said, you sir seem to have a complete lack of knowledge concerning the allegations based on what you consider proof of innocence.

 

The earlier link I posted is a basic rundown if you honestly just missed what the charges were all about. You should read it.

 

http://www.theverge.com/2012/4/11/2941053/inside-the-dojs-ebook-price-fixing-case-against-apple-an-analysis

 

Harp on as much as you want, ALL of your sources point to ONE anecdotal example of a FEW titles.

 

There is not ONE shred of evidence that the price of eBooks in general has changed since Apple entered the market, NOT ONE, zero, zilch, the data does not exist.

 

Which begs the question, whose interests are the DoJ acting in because it certainly seems not to be consumers. 

Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
post #112 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

 

Harp on as much as you want, ALL of your sources point to ONE anecdotal example of a FEW titles.

 

There is not ONE shred of evidence that the price of eBooks in general has changed since Apple entered the market, NOT ONE, zero, zilch, the data does not exist.

 

Which begs the question, whose interests are the DoJ acting in because it certainly seems not to be consumers. 

 

It's kind of hard to tell whether you're still in denial or you're shifting towards anger. The all caps suggest anger, so you're getting closer to acceptance then.

Here's another link with basically the same info:

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/doj-lawsuit-against-apple-over-e-books-2012-4

post #113 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

 

Harp on as much as you want, ALL of your sources point to ONE anecdotal example of a FEW titles.

 

There is not ONE shred of evidence that the price of eBooks in general has changed since Apple entered the market, NOT ONE, zero, zilch, the data does not exist.

 

Which begs the question, whose interests are the DoJ acting in because it certainly seems not to be consumers. 

Did someone claim that eBooks "in general" have increased in price since 2010? I think you're creating your own argument.

melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #114 of 151

Heck a book I paid 9.99 for jumped to 16.99 after this agency model went into place.  Comparing what Random house does when they didn't even want to join the Agnecy model, but it was the only way to get into the ibook store-- is silly. Besides, they aren't a part of the doj's claims.

post #115 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Did someone claim that eBooks "in general" have increased in price since 2010? I think you're creating your own argument.

 

That is the ONLY thing that matters IF the DoJ is really interested in "protecting" consumers, which is why this lawsuit is fundamentally flawed.

 

The only solution as I have mentioned before, is for the Government to legislate pricing of specific eBooks on the best sellers list sold by certain publishers.

 

Why should the Government stop there, if businesses should not be allowed to set their own pricing with eBooks then NOT including other goods being sold in the US is discriminatory.

Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
post #116 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synergi View Post

Heck a book I paid 9.99 for jumped to 16.99 after this agency model went into place.  Comparing what Random house does when they didn't even want to join the Agnecy model, but it was the only way to get into the ibook store-- is silly. Besides, they aren't a part of the doj's claims.

 

Aren't the DoJ's claims that Apple entering the market caused a price increase of best sellers?

 

Obviously it didn't as 'best sellers" are available in iBooks for $9.99, which is the price the DoJ alleges Apple somehow increased despite PUBLISHERS NAMING THEIR OWN PRICE, Random House demonstrated that by selling their books for $9.99.

 

Now is this competitive pricing the reason why Random House holds the top three spots?

 

In which case iBooks is working as it should, an open market where publishers are free to compete based on price.

Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
post #117 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

 

Aren't the DoJ's claims that Apple entering the market caused a price increase of best sellers?

 

Obviously it didn't as 'best sellers" are available in iBooks for $9.99, which is the price the DoJ alleges Apple somehow increased despite PUBLISHERS NAMING THEIR OWN PRICE, Random House demonstrated that by selling their books for $9.99.

 

Now is this competitive pricing the reason why Random House holds the top three spots?

 

In which case iBooks is working as it should, an open market where publishers are free to compete based on price.

 

You can't use one publisher who didn't participate in the collusion as a proof that collusion didn't occur.

post #118 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

 

Aren't the DoJ's claims that Apple entering the market caused a price increase of best sellers?

 

Obviously it didn't as 'best sellers" are available in iBooks for $9.99, which is the price the DoJ alleges Apple somehow increased despite PUBLISHERS NAMING THEIR OWN PRICE, Random House demonstrated that by selling their books for $9.99.

 

Now is this competitive pricing the reason why Random House holds the top three spots?

 

In which case iBooks is working as it should, an open market where publishers are free to compete based on price.

I'm absolutely convinced you understand the allegations made despite your posts. It's not any individual assertions standing alone by themselves that raised flags. It's the "sum of the parts" as you well know, or at least should know.  

 

There's no proof of wrong-doing by any party as things stand now, but the examples you're dragging out don't at all disprove any of the DoJ claims.

melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #119 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


Rubbish:-
a) under which precise statute
and
b) the examples I gave using the current three Best Sellers clearly show that:-
i) Amazon is charging a slightly lower price which is less than the $9.99 they used to charge.
ii) prices in the iBooks store vary depending on what the PUBLISHER WANTS TO CHARGE.
The DoJ has NOTHING on Apple.

 



smh.

 

Your links compared paperbacks on Amazon to ebooks on iBooks. You will not find price differentiation on Big 6 ebook titles between Amazon, Apple, B&N or anyone.

post #120 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

The contention is that Apple somehow caused eBook prices to rise which is bad for consumers.

There has been no evidence on the effect on average prices of eBooks of Apple's entry into the market so the scope was narrowed to "best sellers" based on anecdotal evidence.

Now that I have shown that "best sellers" ARE still $9.99 the scope is further narrowed to only include specific publishers.

So what is it exactly that is wrong here, as it seems like a normal competitive market.

The DoJ seems to have no idea when it comes to the factual basis of law, they have succumbed to the emotional rantings of a small subset of eBook consumers using a legally worthless, cherry picked price list of examples.

The local jewellery store charges more for a Rolex than they do for a Seiko maybe the DoJ should examine this anti-competitive behaviour.

Yeah the doj has no idea about factual basis of law, they have no case that's why 5/6 have settled. ebook prices didn't rise, and there is price differentiation and competition in book retailers amongst the prices of the six publishers currently... Now let's move on into discussing the flat earth scenario while we are being factual...
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Apple says DoJ lawsuit 'fundamentally flawed,' could harm consumers