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Former Apple employee claims Steve Jobs would have 'lost his mind' over Siri - Page 4

post #121 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by ani4ani View Post
So for those who have stopped using Siri, the reason for the 4S is?

 

Are you insinuating that a phone with a brand new processor, brand new graphics, brand new cellular telephony, brand new microphone hardware, and brand new antennas has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to offer but STT/TTS software?

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post #122 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

Indeed. Almost everything folks are saying he wouldn't have done was started in the thick of his time at Apple. Things they said he'd freak about were his pet projects.
Steve started the whole Siri thing. And probably oversaw every step because when he trusted MobileMe to the tem, they failed. He understood that you can't train a voice recognition system without billions of samples of all kinds of voices. That's why they need users. But on the flipside that also means issues with overloaded servers etc. same as you can be standing basically under a cell tower with five glowing bars but if that tower can only handle 1000 calls at a time nd you are 1001, you won't be able to make a call. As the man once said, you can't change the laws of gravity, even if you are Apple? But unlike these naysayers Apple and Steve understand such things
Yeah I'm getting so sick of the "Steve would never have let this happen" or "if Steve was around Apple wouldn't be doing X". There are things Steve got credit for that probably weren't his idea, and screw ups that happened on his watch that people now seem to forget about. The man was amazing, a genius. But he wasn't perfect - no one is.
post #123 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

I believe it already does the speech recog on the client side, that is surely the most CPU intensive part? Extracting the meaning from the words would be more data intensive, but would that DB be more than a few gigs? I am not so sure client side would be 4 years away.

 

Where did you read that?

My understanding is that there is some pre-processing done on the client side (on the S4's specifically provisioned processor) so that the data sent to the Apples servers is smaller and more manageable. But it was my understanding that most of the actual analysis was done at the server (since its Beta, it can be optimized as it improves.) Do you know for sure?

post #124 of 181
I was able to get Siri to hear "remind me to put the gazpacho on ice in an hour" after the third attempt.
post #125 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by DESuserIGN View Post

Where did you read that?
My understanding is that there is some pre-processing done on the client side (on the S4's specifically provisioned processor) so that the data sent to the Apples servers is smaller and more manageable. But it was my understanding that most of the actual analysis was done at the server (since its Beta, it can be optimized as it improves.) Do you know for sure?

The only tech in the 4S that relates to Siri, that I'm aware of, is from EarSmart. It's noise cancelation tech.

Remember that Siri needs to convert speech to text with first-tier contextual comprehension (e.g.: knowing is you mean to, two or too) via their Dragon Dictation license that runs on their servers before the second-tier contextual comprehension in the Siri "brain" can process the text and determine what course of action it's to take based on that text.

If you have no internet connection you can't even make a voice call or ask what song is playing, which are functions that previous iPhones had locally. You can enable that base functionality on the 4S but you will have to completely disable Siri to get that to kick in.

Unfortunately there system, for better or worse, is not able to make first-tier contextual determinations that will either process the request locally or send to Apple's servers for analysis. As much as I would like this to happen I see issues with it so I'm not expecting this to occur in the future.



PS: One thing I'd like Apple to work with linguists to implement is a speech matrix that has the user read a carefully worded paragraph to lets the user's Siri profile have a leg up on the way you likely pronounce various words.

I'd also like Siri to use the SOUND field option in vCard. No, I don't mean the phonetic name (X-PHONETIC-FIRST-NAME, X-PHONETIC-LAST-NAME) option that allows a user to type a phonetic spelling of a name that is useful for various languages. This feature would show up when you press edit and would simply record the name of your contact as you say it and then send that waveform to your user file on Siri's servers.

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post #126 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by DESuserIGN View Post

Where did you read that?

My understanding is that there is some pre-processing done on the client side (on the S4's specifically provisioned processor) so that the data sent to the Apples servers is smaller and more manageable. But it was my understanding that most of the actual analysis was done at the server (since its Beta, it can be optimized as it improves.) Do you know for sure?

You are right, the audio is simply compressed with Speex on the phone and then sent to the server which does everything. Sorry, I could have sworn I read somewhere that the speech is processed on the device.

post #127 of 181

Seriously.  Those hour reminders are important for me.  When I'm working and get completely locked in to what I'm doing getting a reminder to go to a meeting is absolutely useful.  Sense of time literally stops if you're in a working groove.  

post #128 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post
You are right, the audio is simply compressed with Speex on the phone and then sent to the server which does everything. Sorry, I could have sworn I read somewhere that the speech is processed on the device.

 

The big question… and we can't know unless Apple does it… is Siri on OS X.

 

If they drop a bombshell this WWDC and give us Siri in Mountain Lion, we'll be able to see if the processing is done entirely on the computer and stuff is just sent to the servers to get proper… whatever done on the back end.

 

If that's the case, then that will give us a metric for when iOS Siri on-device processing will be feasible, as well as when it won't require an Internet connection at all.

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post #129 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by tikiman View Post

I guess there's little point in mentioning that 95% of the time Siri works just fine for me, but I don't ask it to find "funky" names of locations, songs, etc. that I know it would be hard to understand. I must be in the minority. 

It is rather embarrassing when Siri cannot do exactly what is in the Apple TV advertisements. 

post #130 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by tokenuser View Post

Siri is beta? How long was GMail "beta"? (Don't bother asking Siri - I'll give you the answer ... over 5 years).

Beta doesn't mean bad. It just means not final.

If it was an Alpha release ... then there'd be issues.I 

 

Apple and its supporters have made derogatory comments about Google providing beta software, so why is it okay for Apple to the very same thing?

post #131 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigelian View Post

Seriously.  Those hour reminders are important for me.  When I'm working and get completely locked in to what I'm doing getting a reminder to go to a meeting is absolutely useful.  Sense of time literally stops if you're in a working groove.  
Before Siri that capability was there but it was too inconvenient to use despite the ability to set up in under 30 seconds. That doesn't seem like a big deal but with Siri, as you know, you can do it while walking down a hallway, without looking up except to verify the request. For something that was already simple Siri has removed a barrier that makes it considerably more convenient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

The big question… and we can't know unless Apple does it… is Siri on OS X.

If they drop a bombshell this WWDC and give us Siri in Mountain Lion, we'll be able to see if the processing is done entirely on the computer and stuff is just sent to the servers to get proper… whatever done on the back end.

If that's the case, then that will give us a metric for when iOS Siri on-device processing will be feasible, as well as when it won't require an Internet connection at all.
A few avenues to look for. Will Apple add Siri's Dragon Dictation backend access to Mountain Lion? If so, will be to all machines running ML or just certain machines, like new Macs that have the EarSmart (or some other HW) tech in them? If the former have these machines been silently updated with the needed HW in for this service?

I'm not so sure Siri will come to ML if they haven't added it to the iPad (3). I'm only expecting the voice dictation for ML and that it will come to all Macs that can run ML.

Whilst there is substantial processing power over an iDevice in all Macs I don't think it's enough to properly run Apple's backend. Plus, we're not talking about all of Siri, just Dragon Dictation speech-to-text processing.

On top of that the EarSmart HW isn't needed as a 'PC' is likely to have the same interference as a smartphone. I can think of a dozen very valid scenarios where background noise would be an issue for a Mac in various situations but I don't think the need is the same so I'm guessing it likely won't have that HW even though I hope it does.

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post #132 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post
I'm not so sure Siri will come to ML if they haven't added it to the iPad (3). I'm only expecting the voice dictation for ML and that it will come to all Macs that can run ML.

 

Computers are more stable. Desktops in particular, but also laptops. 

 

The iPhone get Siri because it's forced to have data everywhere. OS X could get Siri because it's assumed to have Internet everywhere, either as an immobile desktop or as a laptop opened at home, at work, or in between.

 

The iPad isn't guaranteed Internet access, but it's as mobile as the iPhone. People don't crack their MacBooks open in the middle of a store and try to balance and use it, but they would the iPad.

 

It's terrible, but until we can get full system-side processing, I think the iPad will be left high and dry. It could be full system-side on the Mac, full server-side on the iPhone… and nothing on the iPad.

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post #133 of 181

Siri is basically a bunch of if this then that or else that. The more you use it the better it becomes, at least in theory. So unless we get some real AI this is the best you can get now on any mobile OS. No one said it’s perfection, but it’s a step forward from what you had before Siri.

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post #134 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

For you.

You don’t expect it to understand micks do you, because they don’t understand each other.

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post #135 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Povilas View Post

You don’t expect it to understand micks do you, because they don’t understand each other.

 

That's not a very nice thing to say, and is incorrect as far as I have witnessed... but then again, there's this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNuFcIRlwdc


Edited by DrDoppio - 5/26/12 at 10:10am
post #136 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

 

That's not a very nice thing to say, and is incorrect as far as I have witnessed... but then again, there's this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNuFcIRlwdc

Yeah takes one to know one.

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post #137 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Before Siri that capability was there but it was too inconvenient to use despite the ability to set up in under 30 seconds. That doesn't seem like a big deal but with Siri, as you know, you can do it while walking down a hallway, without looking up except to verify the request. For something that was already simple Siri has removed a barrier that makes it considerably more convenient.
A few avenues to look for. Will Apple add Siri's Dragon Dictation backend access to Mountain Lion? If so, will be to all machines running ML or just certain machines, like new Macs that have the EarSmart (or some other HW) tech in them? If the former have these machines been silently updated with the needed HW in for this service?
I'm not so sure Siri will come to ML if they haven't added it to the iPad (3). I'm only expecting the voice dictation for ML and that it will come to all Macs that can run ML.
Whilst there is substantial processing power over an iDevice in all Macs I don't think it's enough to properly run Apple's backend. Plus, we're not talking about all of Siri, just Dragon Dictation speech-to-text processing.
On top of that the EarSmart HW isn't needed as a 'PC' is likely to have the same interference as a smartphone. I can think of a dozen very valid scenarios where background noise would be an issue for a Mac in various situations but I don't think the need is the same so I'm guessing it likely won't have that HW even though I hope it does.

Good points!

However, I find that the new iPad (3) does an excellent job with Dragon dictation. in fact, I dictate most of my responses on the iPad now -- just like this one.

I find I get a lot fewer mistakes in typing and grammar than with manually typing a response.
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post #138 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Computers are more stable. Desktops in particular, but also laptops. 

 

The iPhone get Siri because it's forced to have data everywhere. OS X could get Siri because it's assumed to have Internet everywhere, either as an immobile desktop or as a laptop opened at home, at work, or in between.

 

The iPad isn't guaranteed Internet access, but it's as mobile as the iPhone. People don't crack their MacBooks open in the middle of a store and try to balance and use it, but they would the iPad.

 

It's terrible, but until we can get full system-side processing, I think the iPad will be left high and dry. It could be full system-side on the Mac, full server-side on the iPhone… and nothing on the iPad.

 

I disagree!  I think that the iPad will be a key participant in a home entertainment/monitor/control center -- along with the AppleTV.   The iPad will participate, both as a remote controller, a monitor and as a personal TV.  Siri will be key part of these uses.

 

Mobile does not [necessarily] need to mean "connected via cell phone" -- it can just as easily mean "connected to a local WiFi network".

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post #139 of 181
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Originally Posted by maccherry View Post

I could careless about SERI. I would like to now why the hell I couldn't use my new iPad via he wall adapter when the batter has drained.

I took it back to the Apple store for a full refund on Lincoln Road on Miami Beach last month and the manager was more than willing to refund my credit card.

Apparently  this is a very hush, hush snafu on Apple's part.

 

Or it's not the issue was user error, or at least misperception. Given that you can't spell Siri right when it's been repeated a dozen titles for you, I suspect user misperception. 

 

You might want to adjust your tin foil if you believe Apple's trying to hush hush the 'fatal flaw' that a device designed to be portable won't run when the battery is dead and you are trying to drain that massive battery and run the power hungry display at the same time. 

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post #140 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post
I would have delayed the release of Siri until it could run purely client side. It can still send logs and what not to Apple in order to aid with improving it, but this can be done in the background, when the device is not busy. Relying on the server for every single request is not an acceptable user experience.

 

Since you are so smart to know that it can be done, explain  to us how to do do it. How to get a program capable of interpreting and responding to literally billions of possible request from several different languages and voice types into a device that has at most a GB of Ram, a 64 GB hard drive that needs to be 9/10th for user data etc. 

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post #141 of 181
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Originally Posted by lamewing View Post

It is rather embarrassing when Siri cannot do exactly what is in the Apple TV advertisements. 

Has someone used Siri on the ad clips? A page linked in this thread claimed it worked poorly.
post #142 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Has someone used Siri on the ad clips? A page linked in this thread claimed it worked poorly.

I haven't tested it myself but the AI link to Gruber's post that links to it being done came up with even worse responses than trying to speak the gazpacho reminder yourself.

There could be a reason for that. Siri might be assuming that the input is the full analog waveform that it then strips and compresses to send to their servers but we're talking about an already losslessly compressed audio file, right? Doesn't that add a complication to their system trying to process it correctly?

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post #143 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Are you insinuating that a phone with a brand new processor, brand new graphics, brand new cellular telephony, brand new microphone hardware, and brand new antennas has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to offer but STT/TTS software?

Well, it seems it is all Apple thinks is important in its advertising....
post #144 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by ani4ani View Post
Well, it seems it is all Apple thinks is important in its advertising....

 

That didn't answer my question. lol.gif

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post #145 of 181
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Originally Posted by Nsk122684 View Post

I was able to get Siri to hear "remind me to put the gazpacho on ice in an hour" after the third attempt.

 

That's because you're not MACE WINDU.

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post #146 of 181

He d have really lost his mind over os x lion, of course no one dare say this because they will be ex communicated from current apple forever... I can't fathom how Steve would have let such an embarassing release like lion slide without quite a few heads rolling. Sadly Steve is no longer with us, and the same people who messed up os x to begin with, in more ways than one, are responsible for mountain lion. Rip OS X.

post #147 of 181
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Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post
I can't fathom how Steve would have let such an embarrassing release like lion slide without quite a few heads rolling.

 

Well, he did. So you're obviously wrong.

 

Quote:
Sadly Steve is no longer with us, and the same people who messed up os x to begin with, in more ways than one, are responsible for mountain lion. Rip OS X.

 

There's a Safari extension that changes the phrase "Justin Bieber" into something else entirely, but there's no extension for changing blatant lies and trolling remarks into other text. 

 

Does that seem right to you?

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post #148 of 181

It really is the "Newton" of voice recognition systems. The fact that SJ was involved in the purchase, which fact people are waving in the air and declaring victory, means ab so lute ly nothing. He bought lots of stuff. Didn't release most of it. Siri would definitely have been pulled, period. I mean, what are you, stupid to think otherwise? You think he would have stopped being a perfectionist? 

post #149 of 181

It really is the "Newton" of voice recognition systems. The fact that SJ was involved in the purchase, which fact people are waving in the air and declaring victory, means ab so lute ly nothing. He bought lots of stuff. Didn't release most of it. Siri would definitely have been pulled, period. I mean, what are you, stupid to think otherwise? You think he would have stopped being a perfectionist? 

post #150 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Smith View Post
Siri would definitely have been pulled, period. I mean, what are you, stupid to think otherwise? 

 

You cannot possibly know what Steve Jobs would or would not have done, as you are not only not him, you are not related to him, did not work with him, and have never come into contact with him. I mean, what are you, saying that you have?

 

We have, however, a biography that shows he was around and did test Siri in a near-final pre-release state. From this we can infer (though not know) that he greenlit Siri for inclusion on the iPhone 4S.

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post #151 of 181
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Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

You cannot possibly know what Steve Jobs would or would not have done, as you are not only not him, you are not related to him, did not work with him, and have never come into contact with him. I mean, what are you, saying that you have?

We have, however, a biography that shows he was around and did test Siri in a near-final pre-release state. From this we can infer (though not know) that he greenlit Siri for inclusion on the iPhone 4S.


Go easy on @Charles Smith... He's suffering from blossom-end wilt. 1wink.gif
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post #152 of 181
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Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post
Go easy on @Charles Smith... He's suffering from blossom-end wilt. 1wink.gif

 

What about you, Dick? You met the guy. Would Steve have greenlit Siri as-is? Granted, it was yet-to-be-humbled, pre-return Steve you met… lol.gif :broken_wink_emoticon.gif: :broken_sad_emoticon_in_response_to_wink_emoticon_being_broken.gif:

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post #153 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

What about you, Dick? You met the guy. Would Steve have greenlit Siri as-is? Granted, it was yet-to-be-humbled, pre-return Steve you met… lol.gif  :broken_wink_emoticon.gif: :broken_sad_emoticon_in_response_to_wink_emoticon_being_broken.gif:

I think that Steve would have done it exactly thiis way. Siri is a technology that needs exposure and usage to get smarter and more proficient. Right now the hardware can adequately support the software...

If you delay Siri 5 years, then it will still be where it is today -- instead of much more capable and able to have driven hardware development...

To make an automobile, you must take a risk and get rid of the horse.

Some things are worth doing badly (or averagely)... In order to position them for improvement and ultimate success.

The first telephones and electric lights were no great shakes... But they were a beginning!

Steve was savvy enough to understand this and invest in the possibilities.
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post #154 of 181

A great post, as always.

 

And there's plenty of evidence that "doing things averagely" has worked for Apple in the past. Take a gander at the G4 Cube and Mac Mini, for one.

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post #155 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I haven't tested it myself but the AI link to Gruber's post that links to it being done came up with even worse responses than trying to speak the gazpacho reminder yourself.
There could be a reason for that. Siri might be assuming that the input is the full analog waveform that it then strips and compresses to send to their servers but we're talking about an already losslessly compressed audio file, right? Doesn't that add a complication to their system trying to process it correctly?

That is an interesting possibility. Lossy codecs do try to compress according to human perceptual models, and an electronic device using a different lossy compression scheme might be thrown off by that. A way to test if the extra steps are significant is to record yourself, compress it using AAC, play back the recording and see if the result is worse than using the same voice directly.
post #156 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Well, he did. So you're obviously wrong.


There's a Safari extension that changes the phrase "Justin Bieber" into something else entirely, but there's no extension for changing blatant lies and trolling remarks into other text. 

Does that seem right to you?

He didn't live to see the full blown bugs of lion, after each point release, nor the ui mess of poor unpolished implementation that become apparent with time. And of course the last couple of months or so he was just struggling to hold on to his life and take care of his legacy as much as he could, lion was the least of his concerns... I am kinda glad he didn't live to see a .3 release crashing several macs of people installing it.

As far as Siri goes, it's all good and well to rationalise its premature release (as per usual there are plenty of ways intelligent people can rationalise in a plausible way) but the fact of the matter remains that apple needed a big marketable selling point for selling the exact same iPhone design for another year in a row (well one with a functional antenna that is) and Siri provided that. If the cycle had been around iPhone 5 where apple will indeed bring a redesign, Siri would have been less required to be used and would be given time to develop from its current poorly functioning and gimmicky stage.
post #157 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

He d have really lost his mind over os x lion, of course no one dare say this because they will be ex communicated from current apple forever... I can't fathom how Steve would have let such an embarassing release like lion slide without quite a few heads rolling. Sadly Steve is no longer with us, and the same people who messed up os x to begin with, in more ways than one, are responsible for mountain lion. Rip OS X.

 

What is wrong with Mac OS X 10.7 Lion?  I had very few issues.  Are you also suggesting there are issues with OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion?

post #158 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

What about you, Dick? You met the guy. Would Steve have greenlit Siri as-is? Granted, it was yet-to-be-humbled, pre-return Steve you met… lol.gif  :broken_wink_emoticon.gif: :broken_sad_emoticon_in_response_to_wink_emoticon_being_broken.gif:

Considering that Steve was around when the final decisions were made in the iPhone 4S, the question has been answered. Jobs clearly was OK with Siri.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

He didn't live to see the full blown bugs of lion, after each point release, nor the ui mess of poor unpolished implementation that become apparent with time. And of course the last couple of months or so he was just struggling to hold on to his life and take care of his legacy as much as he could, lion was the least of his concerns... I am kinda glad he didn't live to see a .3 release crashing several macs of people installing it.

You seem to love the unending Apple-hating remarks, but you've never been able to document any of them.

1. What (specifically) is wrong with Lion? "it's a mess" isn't a rational argument.

2. Name an OS that is better, more consistent, and better designed.

3. And what are your credentials that makes you more of an OS expert than Apple?
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

As far as Siri goes, it's all good and well to rationalise its premature release (as per usual there are plenty of ways intelligent people can rationalise in a plausible way) but the fact of the matter remains that apple needed a big marketable selling point for selling the exact same iPhone design for another year in a row (well one with a functional antenna that is) and Siri provided that. If the cycle had been around iPhone 5 where apple will indeed bring a redesign, Siri would have been less required to be used and would be given time to develop from its current poorly functioning and gimmicky stage.

It's all well and good to whine and complain about everything Apple does, but where's your evidence?

1. What percentage of people find that Siri works for them, at least most of the time?

2. What speech recognition system on the market today works better?

3. Can you make something better?
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #159 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

What is wrong with Mac OS X 10.7 Lion?  I had very few issues.  Are you also suggesting there are issues with OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion?

Keep in mind that myapplelove has over 1400 posts and virtually every one is a mindless attack on Apple, but he never provides any evidence to back his claims.

Apparently, he thinks that if he simply screams "Apple sucks" enough times that people will stop buying Apple products and his short position in AAPL will pay off.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #160 of 181

Some of you would like to have embedded SIRI, I mean that SIRI would not have to make online requests. Sure, that would be nice… But this is quite SCI-FI for now: think about the amount of data which should be stored on your device then. More, it would require power that an A5 chip would not be able to provide since SIRI is not just about audio deciphering. Furthermore, the service can be improved without any update on the device.

 

As many of you, I don't use SIRI on a regular basis since I don't find it accurate and quick enough for now. I also meet some issues dealing with languages mix. I have my iPhone in French and SIRI is unable to understand me whenever I want to play a music title which is in English. If ever I tell SIRI to play «Since I've been loving you» for instance, SIRI won't ever succeed in understanding I just want to hear Led Zep's famous title… It can be quite funny though, because it can be a game to try to speak an English title as if it was in French… But that's just funny a few minutes, and using fingers is much simpler and faster.

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  • Former Apple employee claims Steve Jobs would have 'lost his mind' over Siri
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