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Former Apple employee claims Steve Jobs would have 'lost his mind' over Siri - Page 5

post #161 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

That is an interesting possibility. Lossy codecs do try to compress according to human perceptual models, and an electronic device using a different lossy compression scheme might be thrown off by that. A way to test if the extra steps are significant is to record yourself, compress it using AAC, play back the recording and see if the result is worse than using the same voice directly.

I will do that this afternoon. I will use an iPhone 4S and iPad (3)* to speak a command. Each time I do that I'll have my MBP recording the audio. Only speech that is correctly interpreted by Siri will be used. I will record straight to record in ALAC and FLAC (if possible) as a lossless control.



* iPad (3) doesn't have Siri but it uses the Dragon Dictation backend that is the speech-to-text issue here so it's results could give us a hint about HW differences.

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post #162 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post
I am kinda glad he didn't live to see a .3 release crashing several macs of people installing it.

 

Pretty darn sure he'd be okay with 'several' crashing out of tens of millions. 

 

Quote:

…apple needed a big marketable selling point for selling the exact same iPhone design for another year in a row (well one with a functional antenna that is)…

 

This conversation is over. You have lost. Try against next thread.

 

Quote:
…develop from its current poorly functioning and gimmicky stage.

 

Try using it.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRicow View Post
…think about the amount of data which should be stored on your device then.

 

What, a couple gigs? Can you shed any light on the amount of data we'd actually need?

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #163 of 181

As far as my limited understanding stretches, voice recognition and response is developed by building a large enough data set to anticipate and interpret speech. This was one of the motivations behind Google Talk, and why Googles competing product Majel may well be pretty good out of the blocks.

Siri when bought was not a finished product and it was clear that it would benefit substantially from a much bigger database of recorded speech to improve it.

This I suspect is what Apple are doing now by launching Siri as a Beta product, and why it is both important that Siri is recorded and processed server side. It may also be the reason why we are now seeing a number of different adverts to encourage us to use Siri more and in different ways.

 

My expectation is that Siri will improve enormously over time, whether it be 1 month or 10 years will partly be dependent on how much it is used in the meantime.

 

I use it in UK mode (in China) and it seems to me the performance has been improved substantially in both it's understanding of individual words and contextualising groups of words, I also have no life changing expectations of it yet but still find it surprisingly useful for certain circumstances.   

post #164 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRicow View Post

... But that's just funny a few minutes, and using fingers is much simpler and faster.

Yeah, that's what she said...
post #165 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by festerfeet View Post

As far as my limited understanding stretches, voice recognition and response is developed by building a large enough data set to anticipate and interpret speech. This was one of the motivations behind Google Talk, and why Googles competing product Majel may well be pretty good out of the blocks.

Actually Goog 411 was the original test application for their voice recognition algorhythms, however, you are correct about the motivation and when they EOLd the service that was the explanation given for the termination of the service. They had sufficiently built the voice database and no more voice samples were required. 

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post #166 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Considering that Steve was around when the final decisions were made in the iPhone 4S, the question has been answered. Jobs clearly was OK with Siri.
You seem to love the unending Apple-hating remarks, but you've never been able to document any of them.
1. What (specifically) is wrong with Lion? "it's a mess" isn't a rational argument.
2. Name an OS that is better, more consistent, and better designed.
3. And what are your credentials that makes you more of an OS expert than Apple?
It's all well and good to whine and complain about everything Apple does, but where's your evidence?
1. What percentage of people find that Siri works for them, at least most of the time?
2. What speech recognition system on the market today works better?
3. Can you make something better?

Yeah, I can make something better, give me just a second to pull it out of my behind.... Sorry for the response but of that's the level we are talking here I am afraid it's the only rational response to it. Same goes for no. 3 of the first batch of questions. I don't have to be more of an os expert, and for tt matter I can't be more of an os expert than a computer (well...) company to know as a computer user with a computer science degree when an os release is rather shit. I am not a cloud computing expert but like others I had a fairly good idea that mm was shit too, thanks to SJ we have an official validation that it was. OS X lion has been a fiasco. There are 40+ arguments on why this was the case, but I won't do you the favour and lose an hour or so to go over them, it will be pointless anyway to do so, as you wil still not be conveinced, and I am not here to convince anyone anyway.


Edited by myapplelove - 5/27/12 at 3:48pm
post #167 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Keep in mind that myapplelove has over 1400 posts and virtually every one is a mindless attack on Apple, but he never provides any evidence to back his claims.
Apparently, he thinks that if he simply screams "Apple sucks" enough times that people will stop buying Apple products and his short position in AAPL will pay off.

You might want to read posts 300-1000 or so to see my praising apple, so that's as much a truth as my "mindless" attacks with no arguments. I am sorry you can't stomach criticism on apple, and I am more sorry for for your blind faith to anything apple creates, but when a company drops the ball I call them out for it, and apple dropped the ball on os x big time.

post #168 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

Yeah, I can make something better, give me just a second to pull it out of my behind.... Sorry for the response but of that's the level we are talking here I am afraid it's the only rational response to it. Same goes for no. 3 of the first batch of questions. I don't have to be more of an os expert, and for tt matter I can't be more of an os expert than a computer (well...) company to know as a computer user with a computer science degree when an os release is rather shit. I am not a cloud computing expert but like others I had a fairly good idea that mm was shit too, thanks to SJ we have an official validation that it was. OS X lion has been a fiasco. There are 40+ arguments on why this was the case, but I won't do you the favour and lose an hour or so to go over them, it will be pointless anyway to do so, as you wil still not be conveinced, and I am not here to convince anyone anyway.

 

 

You keep saying that Lion is shit, fiasco, etc.  What specific.

 

We have been using Lion on 3 of the 4 Macs that support Lion (The iMac 24 runs Snow Leopard because I don't want to buy an update to Photoshop).

 

One of the Macs running Lion is a headless Mini that holds our Media Library on external 2TB HDDs.

 

My daughter and her 3 kids share an iMac 20 running Lion.

 

I have a loaded Dual Display iMac 27 that runs FCP X & other power apps and has 2 Promise Pegasus 12 TB Raids attached.

 

I consider myself a power user and the other Lion users are above average users.

 

I also have Mountain Lion on an external HDD -- and periodically boot to see how ML works for this or that.

 

 

I honestly don't understand your complaints about Lion -- if they are valid, I think you could enumerate 2-3 key issues off the top of your head and itemize them in a few sentences.

 

Otherwise, discussing it is just tilting at windmills.

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post #169 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I will do that this afternoon. I will use an iPhone 4S and iPad (3)* to speak a command. Each time I do that I'll have my MBP recording the audio. Only speech that is correctly interpreted by Siri will be used. I will record straight to record in ALAC and FLAC (if possible) as a lossless control.

* iPad (3) doesn't have Siri but it uses the Dragon Dictation backend that is the speech-to-text issue here so it's results could give us a hint about HW differences.

The goal of this test was to see if various words could be accurately interpreted by Siri's speech-to-test (Dragon Dictation) engine. I used 5 different words, not completely phrases, one of them being gazpacho, to see if the change in codec affects the engine's ability to convert the waveform to text.

Since I couldn't find a built-in app in OS X that would allow for various codecs — the way you can have screenshots rendered as various image formats — I DLed and installed Audio Hijack Pro. I recorded everything in ALAC then imported to iTunes where I converted the ALAC to both 256kbps AAC and 128kbps AAC, and 256kbps MP3 and 128kbps MP3.

In all cases the system was able to interpret the recording correctly. Note there were times when it didn't work that was the case with all recordings and when I spoke directly to Siri's speech-to-text engine, and there was no noticeable difference between spoken or recorded, or between the various codecs and bitrates.

Conclusion: For the codecs and bit rates used the Siri engine is not adversely affected in generating speech-to-text. A clearly expressed term in both loudness and pronunciation seem to the most important aspects.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #170 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

The goal of this test was to see if various words could be accurately interpreted by Siri's speech-to-test (Dragon Dictation) engine. I used 5 different words, not completely phrases, one of them being gazpacho, to see if the change in codec affects the engine's ability to convert the waveform to text.
Since I couldn't find a built-in app in OS X that would allow for various codecs — the way you can have screenshots rendered as various image formats — I DLed and installed Audio Hijack Pro. I recorded everything in ALAC then imported to iTunes where I converted the ALAC to both 256kbps AAC and 128kbps AAC, and 256kbps MP3 and 128kbps MP3.
In all cases the system was able to interpret the recording correctly. Note there were times when it didn't work that was the case with all recordings and when I spoke directly to Siri's speech-to-text engine, and there was no noticeable difference between spoken or recorded, or between the various codecs and bitrates.
Conclusion: For the codecs and bit rates used the Siri engine is not adversely affected in generating speech-to-text. A clearly expressed term in both loudness and pronunciation seem to the most important aspects.

Sol, thanks for taking the time and effort and posting your results.

I think that in a global economy, Siri will have to handle slang, dialects, and mixed languages like Spanglish.

I was playing around with things like:

Play una paloma Blanca... Never did get it -- then tried: Play Slim Whitman, then skip until it came up.

Oddly, Play Gaite (pronounced gay) Parisenne, brought up the Can-Can about half the time.
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post #171 of 181

Well, enumeration or not, if your machines run great, I m fine by that, anyway:

 

Buggy and problematic smb shares, slow, unreliable, no searching, problems with printers via smb.

safari memory leaks

Autoshutdown acing like program crash

Still no dpi or ri settings with ever shrinking font in higher and higher resolutions

annoying and/or buggy save states (close all safari windows, log out and in and they pop up again)

defualt versioning a problem

Frqeuent crashes in preview

mail going to 1-2gb memory

briken memory management with too many page outs, much larger kernel task memory allocation

poor performance in order macs where windows installations right now run much better and expand their life cycle

various ui problems in monochromatic user interface elements, iPad looking elements not well suited to macs, duplicate instead of save as etc., and in general it shows a tendency to pander to ios design but without good judgment on implementation , much like the new apple tv interface, the people overseeing ui choices are no Steve Jobs. It ales a lot of talent to go from decent o good to great and from convoluted to simple. Durrent os x ui design is very seldom well done. It's the difference between huddler and a good forum software.

 

poorly implemented mission control ui (about to be fixed in ml)

a generally slow system even on new macs, certainly not showcasing the state of the art hardware used

mcuh less responsive browsers both chrome and safari compared to windows (tried and tested in many devices) and flash now has be disabled by default in os x (yeah I don't like flash either, but it's a large part of the web still)

Poor legacy support, when g4 computers could run leopard, it's inexcusable that macs circa 2009 won't run mountain lion.

 

 

Its a poor release anyway you cut it, it brought many very unpolished and questionable "features", many bugs in major os software, and has had very ltle focus on core software development unlike sl. Apple isn't putting appropriate care to it, and they are too focused on its, their dev teams are enoguh, and the b team very obviously gets to work on os x.

post #172 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

Well, enumeration or not, if your machines run great, I m fine by that, anyway:

Buggy and problematic smb shares, slow, unreliable, no searching, problems with printers via smb.
safari memory leaks
Autoshutdown acing like program crash
Still no dpi or ri settings with ever shrinking font in higher and higher resolutions
annoying and/or buggy save states (close all safari windows, log out and in and they pop up again)
defualt versioning a problem
Frqeuent crashes in preview
mail going to 1-2gb memory
briken memory management with too many page outs, much larger kernel task memory allocation
poor performance in order macs where windows installations right now run much better and expand their life cycle
various ui problems in monochromatic user interface elements, iPad looking elements not well suited to macs, duplicate instead of save as etc., and in general it shows a tendency to pander to ios design but without good judgment on implementation , much like the new apple tv interface, the people overseeing ui choices are no Steve Jobs. It ales a lot of talent to go from decent o good to great and from convoluted to simple. Durrent os x ui design is very seldom well done. It's the difference between huddler and a good forum software.

poorly implemented mission control ui (about to be fixed in ml)
a generally slow system even on new macs, certainly not showcasing the state of the art hardware used
mcuh less responsive browsers both chrome and safari compared to windows (tried and tested in many devices) and flash now has be disabled by default in os x (yeah I don't like flash either, but it's a large part of the web still)
Poor legacy support, when g4 computers could run leopard, it's inexcusable that macs circa 2009 won't run mountain lion.


Its a poor release anyway you cut it, it brought many very unpolished and questionable "features", many bugs in major os software, and has had very ltle focus on core software development unlike sl. Apple isn't putting appropriate care to it, and they are too focused on its, their dev teams are enoguh, and the b team very obviously gets to work on os x.

Thanks for the detailed response -- I see some valid points there... And a few I will challenge.

Right now, I am watching the NBA playoffs -- so it will be later tonight.
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post #173 of 181

Same for me here. Worked in first try.

post #174 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

Well, enumeration or not, if your machines run great, I m fine by that, anyway:

 

Buggy and problematic smb shares, slow, unreliable, no searching, problems with printers via smb.

safari memory leaks

Autoshutdown acing like program crash

Still no dpi or ri settings with ever shrinking font in higher and higher resolutions

annoying and/or buggy save states (close all safari windows, log out and in and they pop up again)

defualt versioning a problem

Frqeuent crashes in preview

mail going to 1-2gb memory

briken memory management with too many page outs, much larger kernel task memory allocation

poor performance in order macs where windows installations right now run much better and expand their life cycle

various ui problems in monochromatic user interface elements, iPad looking elements not well suited to macs, duplicate instead of save as etc., and in general it shows a tendency to pander to ios design but without good judgment on implementation , much like the new apple tv interface, the people overseeing ui choices are no Steve Jobs. It ales a lot of talent to go from decent o good to great and from convoluted to simple. Durrent os x ui design is very seldom well done. It's the difference between huddler and a good forum software.

 

poorly implemented mission control ui (about to be fixed in ml)

a generally slow system even on new macs, certainly not showcasing the state of the art hardware used

mcuh less responsive browsers both chrome and safari compared to windows (tried and tested in many devices) and flash now has be disabled by default in os x (yeah I don't like flash either, but it's a large part of the web still)

Poor legacy support, when g4 computers could run leopard, it's inexcusable that macs circa 2009 won't run mountain lion.

 

 

Its a poor release anyway you cut it, it brought many very unpolished and questionable "features", many bugs in major os software, and has had very ltle focus on core software development unlike sl. Apple isn't putting appropriate care to it, and they are too focused on its, their dev teams are enoguh, and the b team very obviously gets to work on os x.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


Thanks for the detailed response -- I see some valid points there... And a few I will challenge.
Right now, I am watching the NBA playoffs -- so it will be later tonight.

 

OK!

 

First, are you Using Lion exclusively on Macs -- no Hackintoshes.  I once believed that software is buggy and hardware is a rock-solid known entity -- hardware can be buggier than software.

 

Second, I believe with each release of OS X, Apple tries to establish a new threshold of minimum system requirements/capabilities while, at the same time, discarding whatever it can to minimize legacy bloat,  This philosophy has served Apple and its users pretty well.  Though, any particular OS X release may not suit specific users' needs -- my need for Rosetta requires me to run SNL on a single Mac.  At any point in time, some of the OS features are not, yet, implemented in the OS -- they are being piloted in a few, select apps.

 

Third, I believe the iOsification of OS X is a good thing if done properly.   Many legacy OS X constructs were reimplemented "the right way" for iOS, then ported back to the OS X mothership.  Apple appears to be giving the Mac user the option to run the  iOS UI along with the traditional OS X UI -- rather than cramming it down the users' throat, ala Metro.

 

Fourth, I believe that Apple knows where it wants to go with OS X, and basically this means that the OS becomes invisible (or at least gets out of the way) for most users -- while still satisfying the needs of the power user.  Some day, in the not-too-distant future, Apple will celebrate the "arrival" by CTFF -- Can The Fine Finder.  

 

Response to your specific points:

 

We don't use smb shares -- no comment

Safari memory leaks a periodic problem -- pretty responive fixes from Apple
Do not use autoshutdown -- Experience has shone better to keep things running (sleep)
I think DPI and RI will come in ML -- maybe with retina and GPU requirements
no problems here with saved states
versioning works fine for us
use Preview all the time -- can't remember any crashes
mail is 1.52 gb -- not a big deal here
mem management & kernel -- no information
poor performance on older Macs -- stay on older OS X version
monochromatic UI -- Apple trying things, SJ certainly approved Lion UI -- I think its a step in a series
 
mission control -- OK
slow -- see below
browsers and Flash -- seems as fast or faster than SNL
legacy support -- a plus and a minus -- you still can run an old OS X  version
 

 

 

Finally let me demonstrate the future, as I see it:
 
I have used Final Cut for years... It is a powerful, but intricate, confusing and bloated piece of legacy [Carbon] software -- crash and error prone.  It was updated every 12-18 months with mostly feature adds and bug fixes.  Many users stay a release (or 2) behind.
 
FCP X was released less than a year ago -- completely rethought and reimplemented.  It is wicked fast and fun to use.  You never save anything (like iOS) it autosaves.  You have fantastic metadata and search capability with an SQL DB (though you don't know it) file management system. You can do in minutes what it takes the older FCP hours to do, on the same hardware.
 
When first released, FCP X lacked some capabilities of the prior versions -- but it has been updated 4 times (fixes and features) in less than 12 months (obviously, some feature additions were already in development).
 
It cost 1/3 of the prior version.
 
FCP X is not for everybody... but it shows the future.
 
 
I believe that Apple does the same thing staging its OS releases:
-- establish a threshold
-- show some sizzle that exploits the threshold
-- discard legacy baggage
-- set the stage for the next release
 
So, any version of the OS is just a step along the road -- some better, some worse.  In the case of OS X, you can stay on the current release or, for $30, download the latest version from the app store.
 
That's a pretty good accomplishment, IMO.
 
Paraphrasing:  OS X is a journey, not a destination.
 
 
Edit:  Just to follow up. The mail app on my system takes 1.75 MB RAM idle up to 1.52 GB when very busy.  Compare that to the Flash plugin whick takes 1.75 GB RAM and 115% CPU when idle...

Edited by Dick Applebaum - 5/28/12 at 1:45pm
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post #175 of 181
Siri sucks.

But the competition sucks just as much.

I've been told I have a very clear and easy to understand voice. But no voice recognition software has EVER been able to understand me with any degree of accuracy at all. I'd LOVE to be able to use voice dictation. But I can't.

Now I've seen some people get better results, but nothing that has ever been acceptable as a replacement for a keyboard. It's one area of computing that just seems not to have advanced much in 15 years.
post #176 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkVader View Post
Siri sucks.
But the competition sucks just as much.
I've been told I have a very clear and easy to understand voice. But no voice recognition software has EVER been able to understand me with any degree of accuracy at all. I'd LOVE to be able to use voice dictation. But I can't.

 

And I can slur and drawl and even drop into my mock-Southern accent and Siri still understands me.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #177 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkVader View Post

Siri sucks.
But the competition sucks just as much.
I've been told I have a very clear and easy to understand voice. But no voice recognition software has EVER been able to understand me with any degree of accuracy at all. I'd LOVE to be able to use voice dictation. But I can't.
Now I've seen some people get better results, but nothing that has ever been acceptable as a replacement for a keyboard. It's one area of computing that just seems not to have advanced much in 15 years.
It has become much better. Have you used Dragon Dictation? Siri only uses that for it's first-tier analysis from speech-to-text which is where you say your problem is but it's the best on the market. Is it perfect? Not even close and it's not likely to be for a very, very, very long time. There are simply too many variables to consider.

What you think in your head and what other people can understand has absolutely no barring on how a computer has to interpret this analog to digital data into the proper text. Context is tough for computers which is why it will be a long time and why it needs to be used extensively to improve.

I can get it to understand gazpacho but I do have to actually say all three syllables clearly with a very subtle pause between them inside of running them together as I would normally speak. Humans certainly understand what I means most of the time when I run the word without the implicate glottal stops but we don't process data the same way as computers.

Perhaps we need to meet our machines part way if we want to benefit from using them. At one point in my life I was certainly faster at writing with a pen than with typing but I knew if I stuck with it and didn't pick up any bad habits, like looking at the keyboard, I'd soon be more efficient than before. Surely it can't be easy to change the way you've been speaking all your life but does that mean you shouldn't if there is a direct benefit from it?

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #178 of 181

Dick, I knew I wasn't going to convince you. Having said that apple hasn't bee at all responsive for fixing safari memory leaks, and by Autoshutdown I meant apple's feature of terminating an app if the nanny os considers its not used, just to get back to you on a couple of things. Once I get dictation with the new iPad (just waiting it out o get better chances for a non yellow screen) I ll reply with lengthier posts cause at the moment I am too tired from work to go point by point on what you said typing. 

post #179 of 181

Its funny how Apple can release Siri as beta and its still BY FAR MASSIVELY better than any competition and all that happens is law suits and complaints. People chose not to get the refund but to go to court, problems turn to !$ whenever Apple is involved

post #180 of 181

Isn't it great when people make stuff up in a failed attempt to be funny and get the facts totally wrong?

 

Siri is a Norwegian name. It means "beautiful victorious counselor". One of the creators of Siri named his company that because he was going to name his daughter Siri until his daughter turned out to be a son. In 2011, the application Siri was removed from the App Store, their servers went down, and then Apple announced it was redesigned as an integrated feature of iOS 5 for the iPhone 4S. (Eventually, more iPhones too)

 

The biggest thing to point out is that with iOS 5, Siri is a beta. It is expected to be out of beta for iOS 6, but that won't be known until the developer beta comes around on June 11.

 

What I always say to people who attack things in technology... if you think it is so terrible, why don't you go and make a better version?

post #181 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by timpdx View Post

What I always say to people who attack things in technology... if you think it is so terrible, why don't you go and make a better version?

I think that's a bad argument. Because a person is unsatisfied with the quality of an industry's work doesn't mean the dissatisfied person should become part of said industry to fix its problem.

For example, I would have no problem demanding that someone be good at what they say they can do without myself having to be good at what they do. There is no hypocrisy on that situation. Just take movie making for example, most people aren't any good at making a movie, but it's easy to spot a bad one without having to be a top-notch producer or director to legitimately say that. Anything short of that may as well be "emperor's new clothes" because then almost nobody would have standing to say it's not up to par.

And yes, it is a beta product, but Apple doesn't say that at all in its TV ads. I think it's inappropriate to make a beta feature your headline act.
Edited by JeffDM - 5/30/12 at 11:08am
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