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Samsung argues 4G Galaxy Tab not in direct competition with Apple's 3G iPad 2

post #1 of 121
Thread Starter 
Samsung is fighting Apple's requests for a preliminary injunction against its Galaxy Tab with the argument that the 4G capability of its tablet means it does not directly compete with Apple's 3G-equipped iPad 2.

Earlier this month, Apple succeeded in reactivating a motion for a preliminary injunction against its rival's tablet. The appeals court overturned Judge Lucy Koh's denial of an injunction for the Galaxy Tab, but it left intact Koh's ruling against an injunction on smartphones.

Korean handset maker Samsung filed on Friday its opposition to Apple's claims, FOSS Patents has discovered. According to author Florian Mueller, Apple is "starting from a far better position" with its new motion for an injunction, though a win is hardly guaranteed.

To succeed, Apple would need to convince the court of four factors: "likelihood of success on the merits; likelihood of irreparable harm; balance of the equities; public interest." Since the appeals court overturned Koh's assertion that Apple's design patent was invalid, Apple is more likely to convince the court of the merits of its case. Meanwhile, both Judge Koh and the federal Court of Appeals are in agreement that the case for irreparable harm has been established.

Mueller noted that at least one circuit judge believed Apple should prevail on all four factors.

"Judge O'Malley indicated between the lines that she considers Samsung a reckless infringer whose Galaxy Tab 10.1 should be shut down sooner rather than later, and she clearly wants patent holders to have great access to injunctive relief," he wrote, adding that she "makes a number of good points."

Galaxy Tab 10.1


A large part of Samsung's argument against the injunction in Friday's filing hinges on the claim that, since Apple lacks a 4G version of the iPad 2, the 4G Galaxy Tab doesn't compete directly with the device. The company also claimed that an injunction would disrupt its partnership with carriers. Samsung has teamed up with carriers to sell the Galaxy Tab 10.1 with 4G contracts.

Mueller noted in his report that Samsung's argument is "not without merit," while adding that he believes it's "too weak to avoid a preliminary injunction." According to him, Samsung didn't take into account that "4G devices are backward-compatible" and that customers might use them in off-line mode or on 3G networks.

"Even if someone thinks that 4G is desirable, I doubt that the number of customers who are out to buy only a 4G tablet is limited," he said.

The report also pointed out that Samsung is likely to lose during the injunction phase because it could have modified its product in the time since Apple first filed its preliminary injunction motion. Samsung released a redesigned Galaxy Tab 10.1 in Germany last year in order to work around a sales ban there.

"While Apple continues to believe that the 10.1N still infringes (under EU law), the fact that Samsung made an effort to avoid further infringement calls into question that continued infringement must be allowed by the court for hardship and public interest reasons," Mueller concluded.

The chief executives from both Apple and Samsung met earlier in the week for court-appointed settlement talks, but they were unable to reach an agreement. The legal dispute between the two companies has spread to ten countries with over 30 cases.
post #2 of 121

Ah, yes, waiter, I'm afraid I'll have to order some new sides. My old ones have split, you see, from laughter.

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post #3 of 121
That's was a barely credible pun and kind of nonsense. Getting back to the article. Samsung's argument about non-compete is totally without merit here. Especially since the article states they cold have updated the device since then. Why should that matter...if apple's filings are time-sensitive, then it shouldn't matter if they've updated it to not compete since then.
post #4 of 121
The noose around Scamsung's neck is slowly getting tighter.
post #5 of 121

radio speed alone does not a tablet make

post #6 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

The noose around Scamsung's neck is slowly getting tighter.

In what why? What do you really think is going to happen to the biggest Smartphone vendor in the world?

post #7 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

In what why? What do you really think is going to happen to the biggest Smartphone vendor in the world?

 

the biggest smart vendor in the world by using someone elses operating system and copying someone elses design. Every phone in which they have used they're own ideas has sucked. I have no idea what people like Android cause imo that sucks too

post #8 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoadm View Post

 

the biggest smart vendor in the world by using someone elses operating system and copying someone elses design. Every phone in which they have used they're own ideas has sucked. I have no idea what people like Android cause imo that sucks too

What a well thought out and intelligent post. Are you 12?

post #9 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

In what why? What do you really think is going to happen to the biggest Smartphone vendor in the world?
They may be the biggest in mobile phones, but this case is about tablets, where Apple is clearly the undisputed market share and profit share leader. In smart phones, Samsung lead last quarter (Q1 2012). However, that may change back to Apple this quarter. In both markets, Apple is profit share leader. 

The injunction will be a financial hit. Deny Samsung access to the largest tablet market in the world and they lose market share. They won't be able to sell the devices already manufactured and it will force a redesign. Continued losses to Apple in court will force either licensing infringing IP, and if Apple refuses, removing or finding a work around. This will degrade the user experience.  So, there you have it... The noose is tightening!
post #10 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by jregooden View Post


They may be the biggest in mobile phones, but this case is about tablets, where Apple is clearly the undisputed market share and profit share leader. In smart phones, Samsung lead last quarter (Q1 2012). However, that may change back to Apple this quarter. In both markets, Apple is profit share leader. 
The injunction will be a financial hit. Deny Samsung access to the largest tablet market in the world and they lose market share. They won't be able to sell the devices already manufactured and it will force a redesign. Continued losses to Apple in court will force either licensing infringing IP, and if Apple refuses, removing or finding a work around. This will degrade the user experience.  So, there you have it... The noose is tightening!

While it may be a financial hit they are hardly going to go bankrupt.

 

That was the point I was trying to make.

post #11 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

What a well thought out and intelligent post. Are you 12?

 

In all fairness you were baiting him.  So by that measure you are both 12. :)

post #12 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

In all fairness you were baiting him.  So by that measure you are both 12. :)

How was replying to another poster baiting this poster? How was what I said considered baiting at all?

post #13 of 121

I'm sure there's only a handful of people in the world that care where Android comes from, stolen or not.  Consumers just don't care about things like that.  It's like people buy stolen goods all the time if it's cheaper and it suits them.  That much speaks for itself and that's why Android OS runs on most of the smartphones in the world.  Considering how poorly Oracle fared against Google in court, you just know that Apple's protestations will fall on deaf ears for the most part.  When it comes to court arguments, Apple is weak and Android OS will not be slowed.  I'll bet the courts think all of Apple's suits are a waste of time and are in a hurry to dismiss the whole mess.  Anyway, that's how I see it.
 

post #14 of 121

How does Samsung's answer differ from "does not directly compete because they run Android and not iOS"? Surely what is important is that they all compete in the space of tablets and that any diversion of customers caused by a look-alike product is injunction-worthy.

post #15 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

What a well thought out and intelligent post. Are you 12?

 

Haven’t seen a smart 12 year old? Seriously?

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post #16 of 121

Really.  How clever is Samsung.  When making a tablet.  I honestly think that they are doing the best they can with what they got.  I have to give credit to Apple for showing the industry how it should be done.

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An Apple man since 1977
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post #17 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

I'm sure there's only a handful of people in the world that care where Android comes from, stolen or not.  Consumers just don't care about things like that.  It's like people buy stolen goods all the time if it's cheaper and it suits them.  That much speaks for itself and that's why Android OS runs on most of the smartphones in the world.  Considering how poorly Oracle fared against Google in court, you just know that Apple's protestations will fall on deaf ears for the most part.  When it comes to court arguments, Apple is weak and Android OS will not be slowed.  I'll bet the courts think all of Apple's suits are a waste of time and are in a hurry to dismiss the whole mess.  Anyway, that's how I see it.
 

So you don't actually read these articles, if I understand what you're trying to tell us.

post #18 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

How was replying to another poster baiting this poster? How was what I said considered baiting at all?

 

You're right, it was more like an irrelevant insult because you couldn't think of anything to say to the point.

post #19 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

A large part of Samsung's argument against the injunction in Friday's filing hinges on the claim that, since Apple lacks a 4G version of the iPad 2, the 4G Galaxy Tab doesn't compete directly with the device.

That makes as much sense as saying that the Apple product comes in a box that says "iPad" while the Samsung product comes in a box that says "Tab" so they can't be competing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The company also claimed that an injunction would disrupt its partnership with carriers. Samsung has teamed up with carriers to sell the Galaxy Tab 10.1 with 4G contracts.

So Vito can argue that it should be OK for him to continue to sell the truckload of stolen electronics because an injunction would disrupt his partnership with his suppliers?

Samsung is really struggling to come up with a rational argument here.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
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post #20 of 121

Considering how much Samsung copies Apple, did they totally miss the fact that the new iPad can be had with 4G LTE? Are they saying their tablet can only barely compete with last year's iPad?

post #21 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

How was replying to another poster baiting this poster? How was what I said considered baiting at all?

...do not feed the trolls...LOL...
post #22 of 121

I LOVE how fast AI discussions disintegrate into squabbling... Seriously: it's the main reason I keep coming back!

 

V. entertaining. Keep it up! :)

post #23 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

In what why? What do you really think is going to happen to the biggest Smartphone vendor in the world?

 

 

 

It sure as sh*t happened to the "biggest software vendor in the world." But a little differently. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft

post #24 of 121

This doesn't have much to do with this story, but I was standing in HMV by the 'Tablet' section and there were these kids trying out some Samsung and Sony tablets. All I heard were frustrated groans and 'this iPad is shit!'

 

Made my day.

post #25 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

How was replying to another poster baiting this poster? How was what I said considered baiting at all?

 

"Biggest smartphone vendor in the world"?  Sounds like something a twelve year old would say to me.  If you don't see it though, nevermind.  

 

The very fact that you went on this long back and forth with the other person makes you at least halfway to blame for the argument anyway.  If an adult really is arguing with a twelve year old, the last thing they do is treat them like an equal in the argument and argue back and forth like that.  

 

The whole thing came across to me as if two little boys were trying to best each other in the playground.  The argument has already been over-stated and over-analysed, anyway. The subject matter is hardly even worth the time I'm spending writing this.  

post #26 of 121

Enough of the "12-year-old" nonsense. Eight of these 25 posts have been on topic… 

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post #27 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

Considering how poorly Oracle fared against Google in court, you just know that Apple's protestations will fall on deaf ears for the most part.  When it comes to court arguments, Apple is weak and Android OS will not be slowed.  I'll bet the courts think all of Apple's suits are a waste of time and are in a hurry to dismiss the whole mess.  Anyway, that's how I see it.
 

So Larry cannot and will never get Android Ginnie back in the bottle ever again, just like Jobs and Scully never able to put Windows back in?

 

Will we look back at this in 20 years time as the moment when the dominance of iOS starts coming to and end? I give a generous timespan. Windows unseating Apple and banished it to the wilderness happened in a shorter time than that.

post #28 of 121

What does the radio have to do with what is otherwise infringement of Apple IP? The radio is inseparable from the other parts, so an injunction would seem appropriate.

post #29 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post
What does the radio have to do with what is otherwise infringement of Apple IP? The radio is inseparable from the other parts.

 

Particularly since there's also 4G in the iPad, as mentioned by RedGeminiPA. lol.gif

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post #30 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Particularly since there's also 4G in the iPad, as mentioned by RedGeminiPA. lol.gif

I believe that the iPad '3' is not part of this litigation. The complaint was filed regarding infringement of the iPad 2 design patents prior to the release of the New iPad.

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post #31 of 121
Quote:
A large part of Samsung's argument against the injunction in Friday's filing hinges on the claim that, since Apple lacks a 4G version of the iPad 2, the 4G Galaxy Tab doesn't compete directly with the device.

 

That's like saying "The Honda Accord doesn't compete directly with the Toyota Camry because it has a differently shaped optional rear wing."

 


Quote:
The company also claimed that an injunction would disrupt its partnership with carriers. Samsung has teamed up with carriers to sell the Galaxy Tab 10.1 with 4G contracts.

 

Samsung evidently believes that carrier promotion can help sales of their iPad clones.  It's possible, but it won't help anywhere near as much as the carriers' promotion of their iPhone clones.  There's far more money in phones, obviously, for the cell carriers.  All they care about is selling big-minute voice plans plus expensive data plans.  Tablets only do data, so the carriers won't spend much time or money promoting them.

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post #32 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post

 

That's like saying "The Honda Accord doesn't compete directly with the Toyota Camry because it has a differently shaped optional rear wing."

 

I like the car analogy because it shows how useless all this patent litigation is. The auto industry quit wasting time on that eons ago. Anything that is innovative will be copied within the next model year. Get used to it. 

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post #33 of 121

In response to: 

 

"What do you really think is going to happen to the biggest Smartphone vendor in the world?"

 

Your statement seems irrational. So according to what you're saying here, if someone is the biggest manufacturer of something, that makes them immune if they decide to steal someone else's ideas as their own?

 

In other words, if Toyota decides to build an exact copy of a 7-series BMW, you think that's peachy. And in fact, BMW should just roll over, because Toyota is the #1 manufacturer of minivans? ("Oh, but it's not the same; we used Toyota logos.") The fact that it doesn't drive like a BMW doesn't change the fact of the design theft. Toyota's minivans are irrelevant.

 

I'm just checking here. See, the reason that cars look different is that the manufacturers generally have the integrity to create their own designs. Lookalikes are frowned upon.

 

I think it's completely clear that Samsung copied the iPad, effectively stealing Apple's design. These tablets are so exactly like the iPad that their own lawyers couldn't tell them apart from ten feet away. Then, in response to the Apple lawsuit, they asserted a flurry of dubious counter-claims, including some that are governed by FRAND terms, in hopes that Apple would settle and legitimize the theft, and in hopes that the delay in the courts would allow them time to improve their product.

 

Is Apple blameless in all things? I find that highly unlikely. Is Samsung wholly wrong and evil? Of course not. Let's talk about the issue at hand.

post #34 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoadm View Post

 

the biggest smart vendor in the world by using someone elses operating system and copying someone elses design. Every phone in which they have used they're own ideas has sucked. I have no idea what people like Android cause imo that sucks too

 

LOL. Yeah, it's hard to call Samsung anything but an "assembler" at this point.

 

Now they have an iPad + cell phone. Can duct-taping a phone to an iPad count as innovation?

 

It might be nice having that added feature on an iPad -- but I don't want to answer a tablet in public.

post #35 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by WriterDude View Post
See, the reason that cars look different is that the manufacturers generally have the integrity to create their own designs. Lookalikes are frowned upon.

 

I think it's completely clear that Samsung copied the iPad, effectively stealing Apple's design. These tablets are so exactly like the iPad that their own lawyers couldn't tell them apart from ten feet away. 

Have you looked at a Hyundai Genesis? Can anyone guess what brand of automobile they used as their inspiration? People who want a MB do not accidentally go shopping for a Hyundai just because they look alike. Same with iPad. People who want an iPad do not settle for substitutes.

 

Just like an iPad only cheaper. Right...

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post #36 of 121

I think your find the court take these matters seriously.

post #37 of 121
Same thing will happen to Samsung as the last two previous largest smartphone vendors in the world... Remember Nokia and Rim?
post #38 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerk36 View Post

Really.  How clever is Samsung.  When making a tablet.  I honestly think that they are doing the best they can with what they got.  I have to give credit to Apple for showing the industry how it should be done.

 

Samsung does make a couple of decent tablet models, The Galaxy 7.7" for instance is still in my opinion one of the best tablet I have ever owned, although not the cheapest. It's real quick, very portable and extremely light, the screen is bright and crisp and the best part I get a consistent 12 hours of battery. 12 hours, that's nut's, no one is doing that now, except maybe Asus but you need the keyboard dock attached.

 

I fully understand why Android is a sour subject around these parts, Google stole it, it's crap, looks cheap, ect. However if your a power user, a programmer , Unix/Linux user or maybe just a little technically inclined then that platform is bar none the best choice between the two. I invite you to check out XDA if you ever have any free time on your hands, randomly choose any popular Android tablet and it's guaranteed to have a large following of hackers and developers trying to make their gadget of choice better. Let it be custom Roms, Kernels, bug fixes, apps, ect. A lot of you are probably thinking, well if it was done right in the beginning there wouldn't be any reason for tweaking or completely rewriting the OS in the first place. Your missing the point all together, it brings a community together to develop, educate, invent, plus an active community almost always creates a better version of what the company releases, well almost every time. If Apple released the code for iOS there is no doubt in my mind that we could make it much better, fix bugs quicker (a lot, lot quicker), release better software. An example, there has been a lot of misconception that Android is a Mall-ware magnet, this is actually a wives tail and untrue but when there is a worm or virus or whatever the community disposes of it in a matter of days, hours most of the time. It only takes a person with a little diligence to check the boards when a problem is exposed. Unlike Apple's strategy to ignore the problem until it can't be ignored any longer dues to a class action suite, then you are at their mercy until the fix could be made a month later.

 

There are thousands of open source projects that are currently alive today, developing free, intuitive software for the Android/Linux mobile platform. I really like Open Office for an example, well there are now apks available for installation that are available for Android, yes it is in the alpha stage of development but is there a full office app for iOS yet, no.

 

Asus makes some really great hybrid netbook/tablet's, I don't want just normal apps for it because it operates more like a notebook. This is a big problem with tablet genre right now, every applications is this cut down, big iconned, limited functionality, shadow. Yes there are a lot of useful applications but I would also like to see full desktop applications as well. That's what the Android platform can bring to the table. Especially now that they've combined the Linux Kernel with the Android Kernel.

 

Apple tablets are great, I like them and own two, they offer ease of use, a intuitive UI, fantastic apps including the best music creation apps, simple learning curve, all in a very attractive shell. However it's also locked down, everything is defined in a stricked set of rules. That's great as it offers a consistent user experience threw and threw but it also hinders the user in a lot of ways. I know I've complained a lot about this before but really, why doesn't Apple offer a file-manger out of the box. The OS is more then capable as there are apps available after you Jail broken it. The file-system is still the old 60's Unix version albeit newer with file journaling and all of that jazz. Why is it then that Apple said no, actually is doesn't matter. Like many other features that Apple deemed not necessary what's done is done, that's how they want it, very simple for the average consumer. Myself though wants the power to install what I want without using a shady hacking script..

 

This is where Android shines, the user has the power, not the company. Samsung just released the source code for my Galaxy note for instance, I can now do with my phone as I please, anything that I dream of and is possible of course. They even shipped the thing with a unlocked boot loader, that's incredible. What's even more fantastic is, even though Samsung claims that installing another version of Android will void your warranty, they have replaced my Note twice for bricking it. My fault, I even told the girl from their customer service department it was my fault, she just told me that she will send out a box, to put the Note in it and they will have it back to me in 5 working days.

 

Can't these two platforms coexist without this constant bickering between the two sides. I own both platforms because they both have their weakness and strengths. No one and I mean no one can dictate categorically which platform is better for the individual. Just because Apple is leading the pack now in sales does not mean that they offer the better experience, it's all in the eye of the beholder and what the individual wants. In fact I guarantee if most Apple iPad purchases were truly educated on both platforms there is no way Apple would have sold as many as they had. Their brand name has awesome powers.

 

There is nothing wrong with Android, there is nothing wrong iOS. Both are great for the user who wants it and enjoys it. I know I could give any one of you my Samsung 7.7" tablet for a day and you will come back to me and say wow you know what that is a pretty great gadget. I can also do the same thing to a hardcore Android user, give him my iPad 3 for a day and he will defiantly come back with the same response. It all comes down to what you want the device to do for you.

 

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post #39 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by iansilv View Post

Same thing will happen to Samsung as the last two previous largest smartphone vendors in the world... Remember Nokia and Rim?

 

I hope your wrong about that. The last thing we want is for Apple to gain anymore market share. They're making enough money as it is. The biggest point being, the more competition means that we the consumer Will get better products.  I'm hoping Android looses a lot of ground after Microsoft's WM8, Mozilla's OS, Samsung's Tizen, Rim's OS 10, Ubuntu's Mobile OS. What incentive will there be for Apple if they are making 80% of the phones in the world.

 

It's almost to that point now, there has only been 2 phones from Apple in the last 2 years and they're pretty much both the same exact phone except for a few updates to stay current. Even iOS hasn't really changed all the much, yes we're getting additional features with every update but the look and feel hasn't changed in the last 5 years.

 

Nothing wrong with that at the moment as people seem to enjoy them but I'm worried if Apple increases their monopoly, technological advancements will suffer greatly.

 

You said.... remember Nokia, well you do know that they just released the most incredible camera phone yet to date, 41MP. Without these other company's in the picture who is going keep up with all of the future advancements, I don't care how big Apple becomes there is no way they will be able to do it all themselves. Plus Apple has different engineering goals then others, if Nokia didn't exist it would have probably taken Apple another 4 years to design a 41MP camera.

 

I never understood why people cheer the demise of the competing company, nobody wins in the long run.

When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #40 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I like the car analogy because it shows how useless all this patent litigation is. The auto industry quit wasting time on that eons ago. Anything that is innovative will be copied within the next model year. Get used to it. 

Yep!

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