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Apple denies e-book price fixing allegations in response filing

post #1 of 60
Thread Starter 
A class-action lawsuit against Apple involving e-book price fixing moved a step forward on Tuesday as the Cupertino-based company filed an official response to accusations that it colluded with book publishers to artificially inflate the cost of products sold through the iBookstore.

Apple's latest filing is standard procedure in the suit being leveled against the iPad maker and two major publishing houses and is the latest significant development since presiding Judge Denis Cote denied the defendants' motion to dismiss earlier in May.

Tuesday's filing saw Apple categorically dismiss accusations from the class, which now includes 31 states, stating several times that the evidence will "speak for itself." The response breaks down the complaint paragraph by paragraph, challenging the charges by either citing a lack of "sufficient evidence and belief" or denying them outright.

Apple pointedly admits that, while it conducted bilateral negotiations with certain publishers, the company denies any collusion or attempt at price-fixing.

Speaking to the so-called "agency model," Apple "denies that the adoption of an agency model worked a ?radical? or ?fundamental? change in pricing ?that had existed for more than a hundred years.? The response went further and posited that the agreements held with publishers did not prevent competing retailers to set their own e-book prices. Under the agency model, however, a "most favored nations" clause disallowed publishing partners to offer their wares to other resellers at lower prices.

Amazon was mentioned numerous times in the filing as the wholesale pricing model used by the internet sales giant is being leveraged by the plaintiffs as an example of how Apple's strategy affected the e-book market. In the complaint, the class alleges that e-books sold through the iBookstore face "no pricing competition from Amazon or other e-distributors."

The plaintiffs also argue that Apple used the dissatisfaction felt by publishers that were negatively impacted by the wholesale model as leverage to join the iBookstore. To this, Apple responds by admitting that "publicly and privately in their individual discussions with Apple, representatives of each of the publishers separately expressed varying degrees of unhappiness with Amazon?s tactics, including its prices," but denies using the knowledge as a means of incentive to use the agency model. The company also denies that it was an intermediary between the publishers as indicated by the complaint.



The class-action suit is progressing alongside a parallel Department of Justice antitrust case, which Apple has warned could be harmful for consumers, calling it "fundamentally flawed."

Most recently, documents from the class-action case revealed a previously redacted email from Apple co-founder Steve Jobs pushing for the agency model. Though not hard evidence of collusion, the plaintiffs are attempting to illustrate a willingness on the part of Apple to persuade the publishers into the iBookstore model.

The next deadline for the case is a status conference set to take place in late June.
post #2 of 60

Here we go again, whine, whine, whine the price went up for SOME titles, get over it, buy something else, go to a library.

 

Books are a luxury not a necessity.

 

Apple has done nothing wrong, they will be exonerated.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #3 of 60

When e-books cost more than printed books that are shipped across the country there is definitely something wrong. Many new titles are available on Amazon in paperback for under three dollars yet their e-book equivalents cost no less than $9.99. I could buy ten paperback books on Amazon for $2.50 and get free shipping. That is what two and a half e-books would cost there or perhaps two books from iBooks bookstore.

 

Until e-books cost less than paperback books I won't be buying them.
 

post #4 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post

When e-books cost more than printed books that are shipped across the country there is definitely something wrong. Many new titles are available on Amazon in paperback for under three dollars yet their e-book equivalents cost no less than $9.99. I could buy ten paperback books on Amazon for $2.50 and get free shipping. That is what two and a half e-books would cost there or perhaps two books from iBooks bookstore.

 

Until e-books cost less than paperback books I won't be buying them.
 

May I suggest these fine titles, many of them available below $9.99

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-text&field-keywords=cheapskate

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #5 of 60

There are some advantages to digital books.  How many family members can read your paper book at once.  If you loose the book or spill something on it or if it burst in to flames on a hot day, will Amazon send you a new one free of charge.  If there are updates to it like in a text book.  Will they send you the updated version.  Do any of you books include video or audio like some iBooks.  No!

post #6 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post

When e-books cost more than printed books that are shipped across the country there is definitely something wrong. Many new titles are available on Amazon in paperback for under three dollars yet their e-book equivalents cost no less than $9.99. I could buy ten paperback books on Amazon for $2.50 and get free shipping. That is what two and a half e-books would cost there or perhaps two books from iBooks bookstore.

Until e-books cost less than paperback books I won't be buying them.

 

Then don't buy them. No one is making you.

Under Apple's model, the publisher is free to set whatever price they want. If the price is too high, no one buys them and they might consider dropping it. OTOH, if they sell lots of them, there's less incentive to drop the price.

It's something called the free market.
post #7 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

... The company also denies that it was an intermediary between the publishers as indicated by the complaint.

 

 

 

According to the class-action suit (cf. pdf below), Apple provided insurance to publishers that others are going to join in the agency pricing model. If that is proven to be true, then Apple could be found guilty of acting as the hub in a hub and spoke collusion. Many indicators of collusion are in place: uniform prices, a penalty for price discounts, information exchange. I think Apple will have a hard time defending its innocence, especially when using arguments essentially stating the applying the law can harm consumers.

 

 

http://www.hbsslaw.com/file.php?id=861&key=a579e3b8530e573aaffdb1e3eb64f994

post #8 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post


According to the class-action suit (cf. pdf below), Apple provided insurance to publishers that others are going to join in the agency pricing model. If that is proven to be true, then Apple could be found guilty of acting as the hub in a hub and spoke collusion. Many indicators of collusion are in place: uniform prices, a penalty for price discounts, information exchange. I think Apple will have a hard time defending its innocence, especially when using arguments essentially stating the applying the law can harm consumers.


http://www.hbsslaw.com/file.php?id=861&key=a579e3b8530e573aaffdb1e3eb64f994

Let's take your issues:

- Uniform prices. Doesn't apply. Sorry, that was Amazon. Apple lets the publishers set prices wherever they want. Some eBooks are a couple of bucks and some are $20 or more.

- Penalty for price discounts. Apple doesn't care what price you set. They take 30%.

- Information exchange. There's absolutely no evidence that Apple exchanges information between publishers and Apple denies it. Where's your evidence that it occurs?

So there's absolutely nothing that suggest that Apple is guilty of what you're claiming.
post #9 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Let's take your issues:
- Uniform prices. Doesn't apply. Sorry, that was Amazon. Apple lets the publishers set prices wherever they want. Some eBooks are a couple of bucks and some are $20 or more.
- Penalty for price discounts. Apple doesn't care what price you set. They take 30%.
- Information exchange. There's absolutely no evidence that Apple exchanges information between publishers and Apple denies it. Where's your evidence that it occurs?
So there's absolutely nothing that suggest that Apple is guilty of what you're claiming.

I listed a few indicators, not to be confused with the proof that the DoJ is expected to provide. Let me clarify a bit:

- Uniform prices were set between the five publishers accused of collusion. I did not mean "uniform prices for different books at one publisher" (that would be meaningless), but rather uniform prices for the same category of books between several publishers.

- Price discounts outside of Apple's store become impossible with the favorite nations clause.

- Information exchange is very well documented in the link that I provided. I advise you to read it before making blanket statements.

post #10 of 60

The most fundamental problem with this lawsuit is that it charges the wrong company of manipulating the market.  Amazon was the company dumping (selling below wholesale cost) ebooks on the market.  Amazon was trying to corner the market in ebooks, and they were succeeding.  They had 90% of the market.  When Apple entered the market some prices went up, but most of these were books Amazon was selling below cost.  The idea that there was no competition between Amazon and Apple is laughable.  Both had Apps that sold their wares on the iPad and the iPhone.  Amazon quit selling directly through the iPad and iPhone Apps because Apple was charging 30% and they already had the distribution the needed. You can still order Amazon ebooks over the web through your browser on an iPhone or iPad, but it is less convenient because you had to email the book to your account.  This is like Coke complaining that Pepsi charged more for coke products in Pepsi stores.  It is some thing the market can certainly handle.  Amazon can still produce their own books, and sell them at a discount.  What they could not do under this system is dump ebooks below their cost to draw customers to their ecosystem.  That is not an unfair restriction, it is just plain competition.  If you don't like it then don't buy any books that way.  No one can make money with out selling their product.  Limiting the distribution system to drive up prices for your product is not considered anti competitive, especially if there are substitutes available to consumers.  In this case, paperbacks and hardbacks certainly qualify as a substitute that competes with ebooks for market share.

post #11 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macnewsjunkie View Post

The most fundamental problem with this lawsuit is that it charges the wrong company of manipulating the market.  Amazon was the company dumping (selling below wholesale cost) ebooks on the market.  Amazon was trying to corner the market in ebooks, and they were succeeding.  They had 90% of the market.  When Apple entered the market some prices went up, but most of these were books Amazon was selling below cost.  The idea that there was no competition between Amazon and Apple is laughable.  Both had Apps that sold their wares on the iPad and the iPhone.  Amazon quit selling directly through the iPad and iPhone Apps because Apple was charging 30% and they already had the distribution the needed. You can still order Amazon ebooks over the web through your browser on an iPhone or iPad, but it is less convenient because you had to email the book to your account.  This is like Coke complaining that Pepsi charged more for coke products in Pepsi stores.  It is some thing the market can certainly handle.  Amazon can still produce their own books, and sell them at a discount.  What they could not do under this system is dump ebooks below their cost to draw customers to their ecosystem.  That is not an unfair restriction, it is just plain competition.  If you don't like it then don't buy any books that way.  No one can make money with out selling their product.  Limiting the distribution system to drive up prices for your product is not considered anti competitive, especially if there are substitutes available to consumers.  In this case, paperbacks and hardbacks certainly qualify as a substitute that competes with ebooks for market share.

 

Paperbacks a substitute for ebooks? LOL. Try downloading a paperback in your 6 ounce e-reader.

 

The reasons Apple is being accused of collusion (along with 5 publishers, three of who have settled) are well documented and described in detail in attached documents and previous threads. Nobody needs new inane statements that there was competition between Apple and Amazon. Comparing this to Pepsi and Coke is ludicrous. Books are not sugar water.

post #12 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

 

 

According to the class-action suit (cf. pdf below), Apple provided insurance to publishers that others are going to join in the agency pricing model. If that is proven to be true, then Apple could be found guilty of acting as the hub in a hub and spoke collusion. Many indicators of collusion are in place: uniform prices, a penalty for price discounts, information exchange. I think Apple will have a hard time defending its innocence, especially when using arguments essentially stating the applying the law can harm consumers.

 

 

http://www.hbsslaw.com/file.php?id=861&key=a579e3b8530e573aaffdb1e3eb64f994

 

From Apple's response:-

 

 

133. Apple admits that it engaged in individual, but simultaneous, negotiations with

each of the Publisher Defendants and further admits that it entered into agreements with each of 

the Publisher Defendants “within days of each other.” Apple denies the remaining allegations in

 paragraph 133, except that Apple admits that the final agreements provide that Apple’s commis-

sion is 30% of the eBook retail price and admits that the agreements include an MFN provision

 

 

149. Apple lacks sufficient information and belief as to the allegations in paragraph

149, and on that basis denies them, except that Apple specifically admits its distribution agree-

ment with Macmillan contained an MFN, and Apple specifically denies that Apple and Macmil-

lan “agreed to a pricing formulae and MFN Clauses, assuring themselves that Amazon would be

closed out of the market… unless Amazon agreed to allow the Publisher Defendants to raise prices.

”Apple lacks sufficient information and belief as to the allegations in paragraph149, and on that basis

denies them, except that Apple specifically admits its distribution agree-ment with Macmillan contained

an MFN, and Apple specifically denies that Apple and Macmil-lan “agreed to a pricing formulae and MFN

Clauses, assuring themselves that Amazon would beclosed out of the market… unless Amazon agreed to

allow the Publisher Defendants to raise prices.”

 

 

206. Apple admits that it was an eBook retailer prior to entering into the agency

agreements with the Publisher Defendants but denies that it set the prices of eBooks. Apple has

always sold eBooks under the agency model. Apple lacks sufficient information and belief to

respond to the remaining allegations in paragraph 206, and on that basis denies them.

 

207. Apple admits that, under its bilateral contracts with book publishers, each Pub-

lisher Defendant decides the price of its product in the retail marketplace, and Apple’s commis-

sion is 30% of the retail price. Those contracts are the best evidence of their contents. Apple

lacks sufficient information and belief to respond to the remaining allegations in paragraph 207,

and on that basis denies them.

 

208. Apple admits that its bilateral contract with each Publisher Defendant was the re-

sult of individual negotiations during January 2010, and that the resulting agreements have some

similar terms, but they are not identical. Those contracts are the best evidence of their contents.

Apple denies the remaining allegations in paragraph 208.

 

209. Apple admits that its individual agreement with each Publisher Defendant identi-

fies Apple as an agent of the contracting Publisher Defendant and that each agreement provides

Apple will sell, market, and distribute eBooks on behalf of the publisher. Those contracts are the

 best evidence of their contents. Apple lacks sufficient information and belief to respond to the

allegations in paragraph 209 regarding any other eBook retailer’s contractual agreements with

the Publisher Defendants, and on that basis denies them.

 

 

210. Apple admits that it does not have the authority to set eBook prices under its

agency agreements with each Publisher Defendant. Apple alleges that it separately negotiated

certain limitations on the prices charged by the Publisher Defendants. Those agreements are the

 best evidence of their contents. Apple lacks sufficient information and belief to respond to the 

allegations in paragraph 210 regarding any other eBook retailer’s contractual agreements with

the Publisher Defendants, and on that basis denies them.

 

211. Apple admits that each of its agency agreements with the Publisher Defendants

 provides that a 30% commission will be paid to Apple for the sale of a Publisher Defendant’s

eBook. Apple lacks sufficient information and belief to respond to the allegations in paragraph

211 regarding any other eBook retailer’s contractual agreements with the Publisher Defendants,

and on that basis denies them.

 

212.Apple admits that its agency agreements with each Publisher Defendant specify

Apple’s and the Publisher Defendants’ responsibilities under the individual agreements. Those

agreements are the best evidence of their contents. Apple lacks sufficient information and belief 

to respond to the allegations in paragraph 212 regarding any other eBook retailer’s contractual

agreements with the Publisher Defendants, and on that basis denies them. Apple denies any

remaining allegations in paragraph 212.

 

213. Apple responds that the allegations in paragraph 213 generally appear to provide

an accurate high-level description of Apple’s agency agreements with the Publisher Defendants.

Those agreements are the best evidence of their contents. Apple lacks sufficient information and

 belief to respond to the allegations in paragraph 213 regarding any other eBook retailer’s con-

tractual agreements with the Publisher Defendants, and on that basis denies them.

 

214. Apple admits in general under its agency agreements that the Publisher Defend-

ants bear the credit risk from eBook sales to customers if the stated conditions are met, but the

specific terms relating to accounts receivable and credit risk are not uniform. Apple further 

admits that there are return policies provided in each of its agency agreements, but alleges that

they are not uniform. Apple’s agency agreements themselves are the best evidence of their contents.

 Apple lacks sufficient information and belief to respond to the allegations in paragraph

215 regarding any other eBook retailer’s contractual agreements with the Publisher Defendants,

and on that basis denies them.


Edited by hill60 - 5/30/12 at 8:37pm

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #13 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Then don't buy them. No one is making you.
Under Apple's model, the publisher is free to set whatever price they want. If the price is too high, no one buys them and they might consider dropping it. OTOH, if they sell lots of them, there's less incentive to drop the price.
It's something called the free market.

 

Except for that little clause that the publishers can't set the prices any lower for other sellers than they do for Apple. Which kind of kills that "free market" BS you're trying to sell.

 

And people seem to miss the irony of the publisher's anger with Amazon. Forcing a change to the agency model was a pretty big slap in the face to Amazon. Amazon has made selling eBooks a part of its core business but to Apple it's just a value add to help sell more hardware. If the publisher's stopped selling eBooks tomorrow, Amazon would be forced into scramble mode adjusting to a dramatic change in balance plans while Apple would simply shrug and move on. Amazon is the one that has invested hard core on pushing the eBook market into the mainstream with tons of advertising and prime product placement of their website. For Apple, iBooks is another feature bullet point for iOS devices. The publisher's weren't losing money with Amazon. If Amazon sells a book for $3 that the publishers sold to Amazon for $5, it was Amazon that ate the $2 discount.

post #14 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

 

From Apple's response:-

 

blah, blah, blah...

 

Wow, imagine that, Apple's defense team denies there was any wrong doing. Gods, who would have guessed that?

 

Since Google's defense attorneys deny any wrong doing in the suit with Oracle over Java, I guess that means Google must be innocent too.

 

Never mind that letter that was posted here from Jobs to the publishers that CLEARLY showed Apple was selling the iBooks deal as a club the publishers could use to force Amazon to raise prices. Which sort of defeats a lot of the nonsense you quoted.

post #15 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

 

Except for that little clause that the publishers can't set the prices any lower for other sellers than they do for Apple. Which kind of kills that "free market" BS you're trying to sell.

 

And people seem to miss the irony of the publisher's anger with Amazon. Forcing a change to the agency model was a pretty big slap in the face to Amazon. Amazon has made selling eBooks a part of its core business but to Apple it's just a value add to help sell more hardware. If the publisher's stopped selling eBooks tomorrow, Amazon would be forced into scramble mode adjusting to a dramatic change in balance plans while Apple would simply shrug and move on. Amazon is the one that has invested hard core on pushing the eBook market into the mainstream with tons of advertising and prime product placement of their website. For Apple, iBooks is another feature bullet point for iOS devices. The publisher's weren't losing money with Amazon. If Amazon sells a book for $3 that the publishers sold to Amazon for $5, it was Amazon that ate the $2 discount.

 

No-one "forced" a change on Amazon, except Amazon.

 

They negotiated agreements with publishers which had nothing whatsoever to do with Apple.

 

That's business.

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post #16 of 60
hmmm....

Edited by hill60 - 5/30/12 at 9:07pm

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post #17 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

 

Wow, imagine that, Apple's defense team denies there was any wrong doing. Gods, who would have guessed that?

 

Since Google's defense attorneys deny any wrong doing in the suit with Oracle over Java, I guess that means Google must be innocent too.

 

Never mind that letter that was posted here from Jobs to the publishers that CLEARLY showed Apple was selling the iBooks deal as a club the publishers could use to force Amazon to raise prices. Which sort of defeats a lot of the nonsense you quoted.

 

Wow imagine posting a list of allegations as fact (I refer to the link in the post I was responding to), since when did the US adopt a judicial system based on the presumption of guilt.

 

Apple is innocent, they did nothing wrong, they will be exonerated.

 

Google is NOT innocent, they were found to have breached Oracle's copyrights.

 

The letter from Jobs shows nothing except for negotiations with AN INDIVIDUAL PUBLISHER, which is a normal part of doing business.

 

There is NO evidence that there was ANY collusion with OTHER publishers as regards Apple.

 

Steve Jobs is unavailable to testify as to what the letter meant, it is basically worthless as evidence.

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post #18 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

...

Steve Jobs is unavailable to testify as to what the letter meant, it is basically worthless as evidence.

Yeah, nice save...

post #19 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

- Uniform prices were set between the five publishers accused of collusion. I did not mean "uniform prices for different books at one publisher" (that would be meaningless), but rather uniform prices for the same category of books between several publishers.

- Price discounts outside of Apple's store become impossible with the favorite nations clause.

 

And? Every publisher for eons has had the same price range for each group of books -- hardcover, mass-market and trade paper. They used the same range for the ebooks using age of the title and how it is published as a standard book as their guide. 

 

As for the discounts, Amazon has the same clause and may have since they started in 2007. Where's the fuss about that. 

post #20 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

 

Paperbacks a substitute for ebooks? LOL. Try downloading a paperback in your 6 ounce e-reader.

 

The reasons Apple is being accused of collusion (along with 5 publishers, three of who have settled) are well documented and described in detail in attached documents and previous threads. Nobody needs new inane statements that there was competition between Apple and Amazon. Comparing this to Pepsi and Coke is ludicrous. Books are not sugar water.

 

How about we wait for the DOJ to finish their case and find Apple guilty. you might discover that in fact you aren't the legal expert on this that your tone is implying. 

post #21 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

 

No-one "forced" a change on Amazon, except Amazon.

 

They negotiated agreements with publishers which had nothing whatsoever to do with Apple.

 

That's business.

 

Very true. The publishers said they wouldn't re-up their contracts without their new terms but Amazon wasn't held at gun point to agree. They could have said no to the terms and removed said titles from their catalog without blinking

post #22 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

Except for that little clause that the publishers can't set the prices any lower for other sellers than they do for Apple. Which kind of kills that "free market" BS you're trying to sell.

And people seem to miss the irony of the publisher's anger with Amazon. Forcing a change to the agency model was a pretty big slap in the face to Amazon. Amazon has made selling eBooks a part of its core business but to Apple it's just a value add to help sell more hardware. If the publisher's stopped selling eBooks tomorrow, Amazon would be forced into scramble mode adjusting to a dramatic change in balance plans while Apple would simply shrug and move on. Amazon is the one that has invested hard core on pushing the eBook market into the mainstream with tons of advertising and prime product placement of their website. For Apple, iBooks is another feature bullet point for iOS devices. The publisher's weren't losing money with Amazon. If Amazon sells a book for $3 that the publishers sold to Amazon for $5, it was Amazon that ate the $2 discount.

Two things about this:

It's ironic that people claim MFN status is anti free market when MFN is the basis of the WTO tariff negotiation between almost every country in the world.

An example would be importing cars into the USA. The MFN concept applied to multi-lateral trade agreements would mean that that USA can't charge a 7% import duty on German cars, a 9% on Japanese cars, and 11% on Korean cars. All these being imports.

The MFN concept states that the same import duty has to be applied evenly so that all imported cars to the USA are taxed evenly % in order to provide a fair and free trade environment.

While it applies differently in this case, the claim that MFN and free markets are inconsistent is ridiculous.

On your last couple of sentences in your last paragraph:

Prolonged selling of goods at a loss with the intention of preventing or hurting competition is called "dumping" and is a violation of antitrust laws.

It's harder to prove when Amazon has 90% of the market but if you take a hypothetical situation where Amazon had 70% and Barnes and Noble had 30%. If at this point, Amazon starts selling at a loss to gain market share, and the changes to 90% Amazon and 10% BnN, there would be a clear case of dumping violating antitrust laws.

I also want to add that I think the publishers saw the iPad and potentially massive onslaught of android tablets as a way to reduce their dependence on Amazon and the Kindle ( before the kindle fire.) Therefore they thought that there may be a potential of 50 or more ebook retailers and they want all of these new market entrants to have a level playing field and having a massive competitor like Amazon selling ebooks at a loss would discourage investment and competition in the market. That sounds like a good defense to the switch to the agency model.

Competition is good, right?
Edited by Spacepower - 5/30/12 at 10:25pm
post #23 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

 

And? Every publisher for eons has had the same price range for each group of books -- hardcover, mass-market and trade paper. They used the same range for the ebooks using age of the title and how it is published as a standard book as their guide. 

 

As for the discounts, Amazon has the same clause and may have since they started in 2007. Where's the fuss about that. 

 

It only starts to smell fishy when all the prices go up by 30% simultaneously...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

 

How about we wait for the DOJ to finish their case and find Apple guilty. you might discover that in fact you aren't the legal expert on this that your tone is implying. 

 

That's what I've been suggesting as well. Meanwhile, as long as AI publishes news on the topic, we can comment on those... better than to comment on other posters credentials, right?

post #24 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

It only starts to smell fishy when all the prices go up by 30% simultaneously...

Which never happened, based on the simple fact tha not ALL eBook prices rose.

30% is that an average or a guess based on a very small sample.

eBook prices in iBooks didn't rise at all due to it not existing prior to prices being set.

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post #25 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


Which never happened, based on the simple fact tha not ALL eBook prices rose.
30% is that an average or a guess based on a very small sample.
eBook prices in iBooks didn't rise at all due to it not existing prior to prices being set.

We've had this conversation before... The "very small sample" you speak of are the bestsellers that comprise most of the books being bought. If one title sells 100 copies and 10 titles sell one copy each (just an example, real values will differ, see link below), the average price of books sold would be heavily weighted towards this one bestseller title.

 

Check again all the actual data in the class action complaint, you will find plenty of graphs, individual examples, and publisher price lists there. Here's one relevant example:

 

XMHby.png

post #26 of 60

This is your exact quote, right?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

 

It only starts to smell fishy when all the prices go up by 30% simultaneously...

 

It only starts to smell fishy when all the prices go up by 30% simultaneously...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

We've had this conversation before... The "very small sample" you speak of are the bestsellers that comprise most of the books being bought. If one title sells 100 copies and 10 titles sell one copy each (just an example, real values will differ, see link below), the average price of books sold would be heavily weighted towards this one bestseller title.

 

Check again all the actual data in the class action complaint, you will find plenty of graphs, individual examples, and publisher price lists there. Here's one relevant example:

 

 

 

 all the prices go up by 30%

 

all the prices

 

 

all

 

Your response does not back your statement up, based simply on the fact that it is not representative of the price of ALL eBooks.

 

The lawsuit is based on logic just as flawed.

 

Apple is innocent, they do not set prices, they will be exonerated.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #27 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

This is your exact quote, right?

 

-- annoyingly large font removed --

You're grasping straws. Obviously in this context (collusion) all prices means the prices of all publishers.

 

I am not providing the arguments -- they are all from the linked document. I urge you to read it.

 

PS. How much do you think Apple's lawyers make? How much do you expect to get for (failing) to do their job?

post #28 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

We've had this conversation before... The "very small sample" you speak of are the bestsellers that comprise most of the books being bought. If one title sells 100 copies and 10 titles sell one copy each (just an example, real values will differ, see link below), the average price of books sold would be heavily weighted towards this one bestseller title.

Check again all the actual data in the class action complaint, you will find plenty of graphs, individual examples, and publisher price lists there. Here's one relevant example:

XMHby.png

And, yet, some publishers stated that their prices went DOWN significantly after the agency model was introduced (source was cited in an earlier thread). You can reach whatever conclusion you wish when you choose to accept only the evidence that supports your thesis.

So where't the evidence about the ENTIRE INDUSTRY'S AVERAGE PRICE?
post #29 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


And, yet, some publishers stated that their prices went DOWN significantly after the agency model was introduced (source was cited in an earlier thread). You can reach whatever conclusion you wish when you choose to accept only the evidence that supports your thesis.
So where't the evidence about the ENTIRE INDUSTRY'S AVERAGE PRICE?

 

I don't recall anyone making claims about ENTIRE INDUSTRY'S AVERAGE PRICE, only about the 5 publishers who participated in the alleged collusion.

 

Another strawman argument from you - I don't even know why I bother with you any more, so I will stop here.

post #30 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

You're grasping straws. Obviously in this context (collusion) all prices means the prices of all publishers.

 

I am not providing the arguments -- they are all from the linked document. I urge you to read it.

 

PS. How much do you think Apple's lawyers make? How much do you expect to get for (failing) to do their job?

 

When I pick up on your disingenuousness you respond with this drivel, you plainly stated that "It only starts to smell fishy when all the prices go up by 30% simultaneously...", which quite frankly isn't true.

 

Apple has not increased a single price, they do not set the selling price of any of the eBooks sold through iBooks.

 

They are innocent of any wrongdoing and will be exonerated.

 

PS How much do you think Amazon spends on lobbying in order to prop up their thwarted attempt at monopolising the eBook market?

 

btw Apple's lawyers have paid for themselves many times over for years based purely on the $650 million judgement they got overturned in East Texas a while ago.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #31 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

This is your exact quote, right?



It only starts to smell fishy when all the prices go up by 30% simultaneously...


 all the prices go up by 30%

all the prices


all

Your response does not back your statement up, based simply on the fact that it is not representative of the price of ALL eBooks.

The lawsuit is based on logic just as flawed.

Apple is innocent, they do not set prices, they will be exonerated.

All prices didn't go up because Amazon was not selling every ebook at a loss. While they were losing money on some ebooks they were making money on others. Funny thing with civil lawsuits is that there doesn't need to be much evidence for the plaintiff to win. Apple will probably win the DoJ case but I wouldn't be surprised if they lose the class action one.
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" - Winston Churchill
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" - Winston Churchill
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #32 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

When I pick up on your disingenuousness you respond with this drivel, you plainly stated that "It only starts to smell fishy when all the prices go up by 30% simultaneously...", which quite frankly isn't true.

Apple has not increased a single price, they do not set the selling price of any of the eBooks sold through iBooks.

They are innocent of any wrongdoing and will be exonerated.

PS How much do you think Amazon spends on lobbying in order to prop up their thwarted attempt at monopolising the eBook market?

btw Apple's lawyers have paid for themselves many times over for years based purely on the $650 million judgement they got overturned in East Texas a while ago.

You're correct Apple didn't directly increase prices, but the agency model (which I have no problem with) did. Now I've seen evidence of prices going up and I've seen evidence of prices going up, my conclusion to that is while Amazon was selling some ebooks at a loss it was selling others at a healthy profit margin. Going to the agency model caused the under priced books to go up and the over priced books to go down. People will always see saving money as a good thing, they got used to a good thing as we all do and will scream bloody murder when it's taken away from them and will lash out at whoever they deem responsible.
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" - Winston Churchill
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" - Winston Churchill
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #33 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

I don't recall anyone making claims about ENTIRE INDUSTRY'S AVERAGE PRICE, only about the 5 publishers who participated in the alleged collusion.

Another strawman argument from you - I don't even know why I bother with you any more, so I will stop here.

First, the DOJ made exactly that argument.

Second, you still haven't provided evidence that all books sold by those 5 publishers increased. Furthermore, you haven't provided any evidence of collusion. Finally, you haven't provided any evidence that Apple was involved in collusion.

But, then, it's not surprising since you never support your arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

All prices didn't go up because Amazon was not selling every ebook at a loss. While they were losing money on some ebooks they were making money on others. Funny thing with civil lawsuits is that there doesn't need to be much evidence for the plaintiff to win. Apple will probably win the DoJ case but I wouldn't be surprised if they lose the class action one.

There's another factor which isn't considered. Amazon was selling eBooks at a loss - which means that they were subsidizing eBooks with hardcover books. If the new agency model means that Amazon increased prices on eBooks and decreased prices on hardcover books by a similar amount, then there's no net harm.
post #34 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


But, then, it's not surprising since you never support your arguments.

Jragosta, you are a shameless liar!

post #35 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

PS How much do you think Amazon spends on lobbying in order to prop up their thwarted attempt at monopolising the eBook market?

Not hard to find:
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/23/under-scrutiny-google-spends-record-amount-on-lobbying/?ref=business

Amazon spent $870,000 on lobbying last year compared to Apple's $500,000. Neither of those numbers is particularly high for multibillion dollar companies.

Google spent over $5 M, btw.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

Jragosta, you are a shameless liar!

So you respond to my statement that you never support your arguments by...... making another unsupported argument.

Figures.
post #36 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

Very true. The publishers said they wouldn't re-up their contracts without their new terms but Amazon wasn't held at gun point to agree. They could have said no to the terms and removed said titles from their catalog without blinking

The problem arises when they all demand new terms at the same time, that raised a red flag of collusion, but I don't think Apple was a active partiicipant.
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" - Winston Churchill
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" - Winston Churchill
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #37 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

The problem arises when they all demand new terms at the same time, that raised a red flag of collusion, but I don't think Apple was a active partiicipant.

Collusion has a specific meaning.

If someone like Apple simply told the publishers that they would offer an agency model, it's entirely possible that they could all have objected to Amazon's terms and demanded a new contract without any collusion occurring.
post #38 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

 

How about we wait for the DOJ to finish their case and find Apple guilty. you might discover that in fact you aren't the legal expert on this that your tone is implying. 

He's no 'legal' expert.

 

He's a dyed-in-the-wool Anti-Apple Expert.

post #39 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

He's no 'legal' expert.

 

He's a dyed-in-the-wool Anti-Apple Expert.

 

Hey, look what the cat dragged! Do you have anything on topic to share, anantksundaram? Or are you only posting in my honor?

 

;-)

post #40 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Collusion has a specific meaning.
If someone like Apple simply told the publishers that they would offer an agency model, it's entirely possible that they could all have objected to Amazon's terms and demanded a new contract without any collusion occurring.

Then why did 3 publishing houses immediately settle with the DoJ? Will you take a plea bargain on a crime you didn't commit?
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" - Winston Churchill
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" - Winston Churchill
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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