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Old Hymn but deep implications. / The hate in some Church congregations.

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 

I feel led to speak out against some awful things I have read about in the news regarding some truly awful and wicked things in the US Church regarding comments made by pastors. etc. regarding gays.  I have read more than 4 stories in the last week where things are being said in Churches across the US against gay people.  One case involved a 4 year old singing in an Indiana Church that "aint no homos goin to Heaven".

 

I reject this hate and bigotry and argue that this does NOT represent Christ or His teachings.

 

Please reply with your thoughts if you too have read these kinds of stories with your thoughts on the matter.

 

I leave you with a piece which I love from my childhood days in the Episcopal and Lutheran Church.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o12JF4TQFEM

 

May you always be Blessed!!

 

Fellows

May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #2 of 24

This is just bias and revenge against the church.In plain words Bullshit!
 

post #3 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I feel led to speak out against some awful things I have read about in the news regarding some truly awful and wicked things in the US Church regarding comments made by pastors. etc. regarding gays.  I have read more than 4 stories in the last week where things are being said in Churches across the US against gay people.  One case involved a 4 year old singing in an Indiana Church that "aint no homos goin to Heaven".

 

I reject this hate and bigotry and argue that this does NOT represent Christ or His teachings.

 

Please reply with your thoughts if you too have read these kinds of stories with your thoughts on the matter.

 

I leave you with a piece which I love from my childhood days in the Episcopal and Lutheran Church.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o12JF4TQFEM

 

May you always be Blessed!!

 

Fellows

 

Thank you Fellowship, I'm not sure if you will agree but I think your spiritual nature transcends mainstream Christianity itself. I feel, you have taken Christianity as a framework in which you can improve and express yourself. Which is excellent. However, in much of Christianity, let alone Judaism, Islam and Catholicism, people do not do this.

 

Take the gay marriage argument for example. Everyone is "tolerant" now because they say, ah well, homos can live together, as long as I don't see them. Now they say, well, they can do what they want, as long as it is not "marriage", because marriage is only sanctioned by the Church.

 

I'm not sure what your view is on gay marriage but I think at least you sound like you have some common sense in you.

post #4 of 24

I with you on rejecting the extremist rhetoric of the various pastors we've seen.  However, I don't know what you mean by "The US Church."   These examples are highly isolated and denounced by all reasonable people.  They are in no way indicative of the vast, vast majority of Christian behavior/thought.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #5 of 24

I haven't read the specific articles but I have seen a couple of headlines.

 

It is very sad and, from what little I've read in regards to this, even despicable (there's only two examples I've seen from a guy in North Carolina and another in Kansas.)

 

In fact this article mentions those and the case from Indiana that you mention and here's what else it has to say about the Kansas church:

 

Quote:
An official with the Kansas-Nebraska Convention of Southern Baptists issued a statement to CNN on Thursday saying that Knapp’s church had left the Southern Baptist fold in 2010.
 
“Obviously, he has taken a radical and unbiblical stand in regards to homosexuality,” said Tim Boyd, communications director for the convention.
 
“We look at homosexuals as we look at all sinners,” his statement said. “God loves them. Christ died for them. The Gospel calls them to repentance and salvation. Therefore, we as Christ-followers should hate the sin and love the sinner.”

 

And about the North Carolina one:

 

Quote:
The Southern Baptist Convention distanced itself from Worley's remarks.
 
The nation's largest Baptist group said Providence Road Baptist in Maiden is not affiliated with its 16 million-member denomination and condemned the comments.

 

These sound like a couple of guys "gone rogue" not unlike the Westboro Baptist Church. Not the mainstream of churches in the US. It is also certainly not my experience in 20 years or so of church going. And I believe the pastors at my own church would be downright angry about this kind of thing.

 

Unfortunately there are always people that hate and will be bigots and use whatever means (including Christian, Muslim, Jewish or non-relogious) to promulgate that hatred.

 

I'd be a tad careful however in speaking as broadly as "the US church." It is not my impression that this is a widespread phenomenon. There are anywhere between 300,000 and 400,000 churches in the US. If there were incidents even involving 1,000 (and I doubt there are examples totally more that 100) different churches, that amounts to about 1/3 of 1%. And the churches mentioned above all appear to be small churches in small towns. In short you run the risk of the hasty generalization fallacy.

 

That said, you have not provided any links to articles discussion how much, where and how is saying these things or exactly what is being said.

 

While I do not advocate any hatred or harm toward people who are homosexuals (or anyone for that matter), there is "saying some thing against gay people" and there is "saying something against gay people." What I mean by that is that a pastor simply stating his church's and the bible's apparent position on homosexual behavior is not, per se, promulgating or promoting hatred (though some will certainly view it as such).


Edited by MJ1970 - 6/1/12 at 6:29am

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #6 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I with you on rejecting the extremist rhetoric of the various pastors we've seen.  However, I don't know what you mean by "The US Church."   These examples are highly isolated and denounced by all reasonable people.  They are in no way indicative of the vast, vast majority of Christian behavior/thought.  

 

What is the "vast, vast majority of Christian behavior/thought"? Can you supply a link to a peer-reviewed theological/psychological study on this topic?

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #7 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

What is the "vast, vast majority of Christian behavior/thought"? Can you supply a link to a peer-reviewed theological/psychological study on this topic?

 

Oh for ****'s sake. Give it a rest.

 

The reason these stories are in the news is because...they're news. They're unusual. Use some common sense here.

 

There are around 300,000 - 400,000 christian churches in the US at which around 60,000,000 people regularly attend. What we have here is examples from 3-4 small churches (whose pastors appear to have gone rogue from their standard denominational doctrine), and assuming that everyone in those churches agreed 100% with what was done/said still is pretty miniscule. Here are the three churches we've heard of:

 

 

  • Providence Road Baptist (Attendance: 300) in Maiden, NC (Pop: 3,500)
  • Apostolic Truth Tabernacle (Attendance: guessing a few hundred) in Greensburg, IN (Pop: 11,000)
  • New Hope Baptist Church (Attendance: guessing a couple hundred at most) in Seneca, KS (Pop: 2,000)
 

(A couple of which who have received death threats in a new ironic development.)

 

You also have large, major denominations to which a couple of these churches could be connected or associated denouncing this kind of thing.

 

If you think that these examples are representative of the a vast majority (or even a significant percentage above more than 5-10%) of Christians then let's have your "link to a peer-reviewed theological/psychological study."

 

Let's get serious.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #8 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Oh for ****'s sake. Give it a rest.

 

The reason these stories are in the news is because...they're news. They're unusual. Use some common sense here.

 

There are around 300,000 - 400,000 christian churches in the US at which around 60,000,000 people regularly attend. What we have here is examples from 3-4 small churches (whose pastors appear to have gone rogue from their standard denominational doctrine), and assuming that everyone in those churches agreed 100% with what was done/said still is pretty miniscule. Here are the three churches we've heard of:

 

 

  • Providence Road Baptist (Attendance: 300) in Maiden, NC (Pop: 3,500)
  • Apostolic Truth Tabernacle (Attendance: guessing a few hundred) in Greensburg, IN (Pop: 11,000)
  • New Hope Baptist Church (Attendance: guessing a couple hundred at most) in Seneca, KS (Pop: 2,000)
 

(A couple of which who have received death threats in a new ironic development.)

 

You also have large, major denominations to which a couple of these churches could be connected or associated denouncing this kind of thing.

 

If you think that these examples are representative of the a vast majority (or even a significant percentage above more than 5-10%) of Christians then let's have your "link to a peer-reviewed theological/psychological study."

 

Let's get serious.

 

 

Hatred towards gays is not representative of the broad swath of PUBLICLY EXPRESSED opinion in the mainstream US Christian establishment - which is what you are talking about - However, the "vast, vast majority of Christian behavior and thought" is privately held opinion, without a public platform or voice. The "vast, vast" majority of pastors may not express hatred from the pulpit, but what their flock tends to think on this issue is, afaik, unknown, unless you can point me to a properly sampled, scientific study, with favorable peer review,  which elicits the actual opinions of the majority of mainstream church-going people. 

 

However, considering that (a) the largest religious group in the US (by far) comes under the Christian umbrella, which represents approximately 80% of all Americans, or 94% of Americans that adhere to a religious faith, (b) there is a significant majority of Americans who either "disapprove or strongly disapprove" of the idea that two gay people can marry ie have the same civil rights as heterosexuals, and (c) according to the FBI, hate crimes against gays (amongst other non-approved groups) have been rising rapidly in recent years..... there *might* be some correlation between what the handful of extremist pastors are saying, and what many of their flock might think. However, as I iterated earlier, the "flock" does not have the public platform or motivation to express their viewpoints on this or other matters of faith and church policy, that church officials have.

 

How about the huge majority of pastors who do NOT express hatred towards gays? Almost uniformly, they don't express support for that community either, preferring to remain silent on the issue. The reasons the silence could well be that "disapproval or strong disapproval" from their flock... and perhaps even a heightened "sense of self-preservation" that a pastor from some rural parts of the Bible Belt probably has, as regards expressing such an issue.

 

The bottom line, from the CEO: Would Jesus disapprove of gay people to the point of exclusion from vital aspects of mainstream society, such as the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

 

 


Edited by sammi jo - 6/1/12 at 3:02pm
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post #9 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Hatred towards gays is not representative of the broad swath of PUBLICLY EXPRESSED opinion in the mainstream US Christian establishment - which is what you are talking about - However, the "vast, vast majority of Christian behavior and thought" is privately held opinion, without a public platform or voice. The "vast, vast" majority of pastors may not express hatred from the pulpit, but what their flock tends to think on this issue is, afaik, unknown, unless you can point me to a properly sampled, scientific study, with favorable peer review,  which elicits the actual opinions of the majority of mainstream church-going people.

 

You're right. I don't know and you don't know. I know what behavior I see. I know what is expressed. Your implication here is that absent a properly "peer reviewed" scientific study we should not assume that all Christian do not hate gays.

 

Geez.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

However, considering that (a) the largest religious group in the US (by far) comes under the Christian umbrella, which represents approximately 80% of all Americans, or 94% of Americans that adhere to a religious faith, (b) there is a significant majority of Americans who either "disapprove or strongly disapprove" of the idea that two gay people can marry ie have the same civil rights as heterosexuals...

 

NOTE...disapproval of a particular behavior does not equal hatred.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

(c) according to the FBI, hate crimes against gays (amongst other non-approved groups) have been rising rapidly in recent years..... there *might* be some correlation between what the handful of extremist pastors are saying, and what many of their flock might think.

 

And there might not be.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

How about the huge majority of pastors who do NOT express hatred towards gays? Almost uniformly, they don't express support for that community either, preferring to remain silent on the issue. The reasons the silence could well be that "disapproval or strong disapproval" from their flock... and perhaps even a heightened "sense of self-preservation" that a pastor from some rural parts of the Bible Belt probably has, as regards expressing such an issue.

 

There's an awful lot of speculation in there. Sheesh.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Would Jesus disapprove of gay people to the point of exclusion from vital aspects of mainstream society, such as the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

 

Personally, I believe Jesus would say that homosexual behavior is a sin, but that he offers forgiveness for this sin just like any other sin.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #10 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

You're right. I don't know and you don't know. I know what behavior I see. I know what is expressed. Your implication here is that absent a properly "peer reviewed" scientific study we should not assume that all Christian do not hate gays.

 

Geez.

 

 

 

NOTE...disapproval of a particular behavior does not equal hatred.

 

 

 

And there might not be.

 

 

 

There's an awful lot of speculation in there. Sheesh.

 

 

 

Personally, I believe Jesus would say that homosexual behavior is a sin, but that he offers forgiveness for this sin just like any other sin.

 

OK. It comes down to the notion that the Christian establishment, by and large does not approve of homosexuality. An unknown number of Christians hate gays, and a minority of pastors have openly expressed such.

 

If, in theory of course,  the Christian faith is based on the teachings of Jesus - or even more to the  point, Paul, then where does it state in the gospels re. the teachings of Jesus, or the writings of Paul, the idea that "homosexuality is a sin"? And if this idea originally comes from Leviticus and Deuteronomy, then what's with the current, seemingly arbitrary cherry-picking of homosexuality as an issue, when many other condemnations are listed, such as "wearing clothes made of more than one fabric",  "cutting your hair or shaving", "going to the altar to worship if you have a flat nose, you're blind, or you're disabled", "eating shellfish", and numerous others? How about the somewhat extreme command: if "a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death"? Perhaps its easier to hate on gays than it is to compromise our convenience oriented lifestyles with some of the other incumbrances re. 3500 year old edicts that applied to an ancient society that has very little in common with ours.

 

Since there is now overwhelming evidence that homosexuality is not a simple matter of lifestyle choice, but an inbuilt characteristic of a minority of humankind, it would follow that if the "Christian God" is the creator of all things, then not only did "he" assign heterosexuality to the majority, but also assigned homosexuality to a minority - in other words, did God mess up somewhere along the line? And if this anti-gay obsession in Christianity is based upon Leviticus,  then what's the deal as regards lesbians?  If there is no mention anywhere in the Bible, does this represent a rare piece of Biblical inverted duplicity?


Edited by sammi jo - 6/1/12 at 5:27pm
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post #11 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

 

What is the "vast, vast majority of Christian behavior/thought"? Can you supply a link to a peer-reviewed theological/psychological study on this topic?

 

The vast majority of Christians do not hold hatred in their hearts (so to speak) for gays, whether or not they approve/disapprove of their "behavior" (for lack of a  better term).  That has been my experience as someone that has encountered many people of many denominations.  They certainly don't believe as these wackadoo pastors do.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

 

OK. It comes down to the notion that the Christian establishment, by and large does not approve of homosexuality. An unknown number of Christians hate gays, and a minority of pastors have openly expressed such.

 

If, in theory of course,  the Christian faith is based on the teachings of Jesus - or even more to the  point, Paul, then where does it state in the gospels re. the teachings of Jesus, or the writings of Paul, can we find this idea that homosexuality is a sin? And if this idea originally comes from Leviticus and Deuteronomy, then what's with the current, seemingly arbitrary cherry-picking of homosexuality as an issue, when many other condemnations are listed, such as "wearing clothes made of more than one fabric",  "cutting your hair or shaving", "going to the altar to worship if you have a flat nose, you're blind, or you're disabled", "eating shellfish", and numerous others? How about the somewhat extreme command: if "a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death"? Perhaps its easier to hate on gays than it is to compromise our convenience oriented lifestyles with some of the other incumbrances re. 3500 year old edicts that applied to an ancient society that has very little in common with ours.

 

Since there is now overwhelming evidence that homosexuality is not a simple matter of lifestyle choice, but an inbuilt characteristic of a minority of humankind, it would follow that if the "Christian God" is the creator of all things, then not only did "he" assign heterosexuality to the majority, but also assigned homosexuality to a minority - in other words, did God mess up somewhere along the line? And if this anti-gay obsession in Christianity is based upon Leviticus,  then what's the deal as regards lesbians?  If there is no mention anywhere in the Bible, does this represent a rare piece of Biblical inverted duplicity?

 

Ahh, here we go again.  Sammi wants to have a biblical debate on homosexuality, presumably to show how ridiculous and illogical many Christians' beliefs on the topic are.  Not taking the bait on that one.  

 

I will address the bolded section.  I disagree that the evidence is "overwhelming."  There is evidence that a portion of those who identity as gay have biological differences as compared to straights, there is also evidence that some do, in fact, "choose" their orientation for no apparent biological reason whatsoever.  So please, stop lying.  And for the love of Pete, stop trying to make biblical arguments when you yourself don't even "believe" in its holiness.

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

 

The vast majority of Christians do not hold hatred in their hearts (so to speak) for gays, whether or not they approve/disapprove of their "behavior" (for lack of a  better term).  That has been my experience as someone that has encountered many people of many denominations.  They certainly don't believe as these wackadoo pastors do.  

 

Ahh, here we go again.  Sammi wants to have a biblical debate on homosexuality, presumably to show how ridiculous and illogical many Christians' beliefs on the topic are.  Not taking the bait on that one.  

 

 

 

I guess it all depends on what you mean by the word Christian. On one hand, there's "original Christianity" as taught by by Jesus Christ. In another universe, we have the "convenience Christianity" that has evolved in our modern industrial society, where the main foci are the materialist, political and business attributes of the faith, and the spiritual aspect has been relegated to the status of condiment. 

 

Quote:
will address the bolded section.  I disagree that the evidence is "overwhelming."  There is evidence that a portion of those who identity as gay have biological differences as compared to straights, there is also evidence that some do, in fact, "choose" their orientation for no apparent biological reason whatsoever.  

 

Reading back my post, I made the error of pigeonholing humanity into the two categories of "straight" and "gay". This of course is unrealistic; the world of sexuality - as pretty much anything in the real world - is not just black and white, but some black, some white, and many shades of gray in between. Again it is very hard to know how many people conform to being "100% straight" or "100% gay"... but given the still very strong disapproval (even fear and paranoia) in mainstream society towards homosexuality, surveys on the subject are prone to distortion and untrue answers. Btw, what does the Bible, or Christianity say about bisexuality? 

 

Quote:
So please, stop lying.  And for the love of Pete, stop trying to make biblical arguments when you yourself don't even "believe" in its holiness.

 

Anyone is free to venture their take on the Bible's contents, regardless of belief or otherwise in its "holiness". The books of the Bible were written by human beings, and have been passed down through the generations complete with plenty of editing, censoring, mistranslation and more. The Bible contains everything from the highest expression of wisdom to extreme brutality and inhumanity of the worst order. The word of God? The inspired parts - maybe. The purely historical and narrative content - probably not. 

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post #13 of 24

Freedom of speech that is what we have in our country. Even the great Jesus believed in this.
 

post #14 of 24

Sammi is absolutely killing it on this thread. Well done. Of course, it bears reflection that nobody knows if Jesus was straight, gay, bisexual or anywhere in between. This is not an inflammatory statement, it's fact.

post #15 of 24

Who cares.
 

post #16 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Who cares.
 

 

That's right. Gays, Jesus, Christians, Romney, China, Debt, Wall Street... It's not going to matter. 2012 = Peak Oil. This is the real "end of the world". Don't worry, like most things, an infection doesn't kill you right away. It sucks everything from you, and then when it's sucked so much from the host it cannot survive itself, the infection and/or the host will die.

post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

 

I guess it all depends on what you mean by the word Christian. On one hand, there's "original Christianity" as taught by by Jesus Christ. In another universe, we have the "convenience Christianity" that has evolved in our modern industrial society, where the main foci are the materialist, political and business attributes of the faith, and the spiritual aspect has been relegated to the status of condiment. 

 

I really think you have no idea WTF you're talking about regarding what Christianity "is" today.  You're great at painting a picture of a machine that is interested only in money and power, but that doesn't mean you understand today's Christians or their beliefs.  

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Reading back my post, I made the error of pigeonholing humanity into the two categories of "straight" and "gay". This of course is unrealistic; the world of sexuality - as pretty much anything in the real world - is not just black and white, but some black, some white, and many shades of gray in between. Again it is very hard to know how many people conform to being "100% straight" or "100% gay"... but given the still very strong disapproval (even fear and paranoia) in mainstream society towards homosexuality, surveys on the subject are prone to distortion and untrue answers. Btw, what does the Bible, or Christianity say about bisexuality? 

 

I'm not sure there is a point in getting into that debate.  It's really another topic completely.  

 

 

Quote:
Anyone is free to venture their take on the Bible's contents, regardless of belief or otherwise in its "holiness".

 

Sure, but many of those people look ridiculous in doing so.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
The books of the Bible were written by human beings, and have been passed down through the generations complete with plenty of editing, censoring, mistranslation and more. The Bible contains everything from the highest expression of wisdom to extreme brutality and inhumanity of the worst order. The word of God? The inspired parts - maybe. The purely historical and narrative content - probably not. 

 

I agree wholeheartedly.  I'm simply stating that it's comical to watch people who aren't Christians use the bible to support their arguments.

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #18 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I really think you have no idea WTF you're talking about regarding what Christianity "is" today.  You're great at painting a picture of a machine that is interested only in money and power, but that doesn't mean you understand today's Christians or their beliefs.  

 

 

True, Christianity today is actually one of the most diverse and liberal of all organised religions. Growing up in Christian schools I thought it was rather restrictive. Then I learnt more about Islam and Judaism. Those are, in Kramer's famous words re: Van Delay Industries... they're "way, way off buddy".

 

Side note: Today I realised a famous local newscaster is gay. Having spent 5 years in San Francisco and Sydney, I would say my gaydar is pretty (pun unintended) refined. Spoke with him today, took a picture to send to my parents to show, "Look ma, I hung out with a celeb today!". Then a few minutes later, looking at it on my iPhone, I'm like, OMG, this is pretty gay. My parents of course already suspect my sexuality (which is generally hetero for the past 10 years), no need to give them palpitations today, I was just excited to meet a local celeb. He might have thought I was one of his young twink fans. Ah well, cest la vie.

 

Oh Noes! They're everywhere! Let's stop them getting officially married because that will make them go away! LOL

post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

 

True, Christianity today is actually one of the most diverse and liberal of all organised religions. Growing up in Christian schools I thought it was rather restrictive. Then I learnt more about Islam and Judaism. Those are, in Kramer's famous words re: Van Delay Industries... they're "way, way off buddy".

 

Side note: Today I realised a famous local newscaster is gay. Having spent 5 years in San Francisco and Sydney, I would say my gaydar is pretty (pun unintended) refined. Spoke with him today, took a picture to send to my parents to show, "Look ma, I hung out with a celeb today!". Then a few minutes later, looking at it on my iPhone, I'm like, OMG, this is pretty gay. My parents of course already suspect my sexuality (which is generally hetero for the past 10 years), no need to give them palpitations today, I was just excited to meet a local celeb. He might have thought I was one of his young twink fans. Ah well, cest la vie.

 

Oh Noes! They're everywhere! Let's stop them getting officially married because that will make them go away! LOL

 

Generally hetero?  That doesn't sound like we've made up our mind. 

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #20 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Who cares.
 

 

A very large section of the American public! Why they should be so obsessed with peoples' private affairs remains mysterious. The healthy sales figures of gossip and celebrity magazines devoted to obsession with the lives of others, which are available by the dozen in any supermarket checkout... is a testament to such.

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #21 of 24

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #22 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post
Generally hetero?  That doesn't sound like we've made up our mind. 

 

That's what's called an "open mind". Some people like that. I'm unmarried, who knows, I could fall in love with a lady and have five kids and have the best years of my life. Or, something else could happen.

 

Open Mind

Open Heart

Better Life
 

(For just $29.99 with postage I will send you my DVD explaining how you too can be happy LOL)

post #23 of 24
Quote:

 

Haters.  :) 

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #24 of 24

Christian-based lobby groups still actively campaign against legalising gay marriage. While it does not cover all Christians, of course, I wonder if we will see a point where Christian-based lobby groups approve of gay marriage in a higher proportion than those against.

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