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ETSI chooses Apple's 'nano-SIM' design as new standard - Page 2

post #41 of 58
Hopefully the next time this gets remade it will be a virtual SIM that will make it easier to switch SIMs when jumping between carriers and/or countries.

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post #42 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_in_sb View Post

Apple said that the notch was a bad idea because it toolk away needed space on the card for data

I heard Apple was worried if the design included Notch Minecraft might not be further developed.

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post #43 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post

Nokia is screaming like a baby about patents because Apple made the format free to use and RIM and Moto are complaining about............... a notch.

 

1. Nokia, shut up. You get it for free.

2. A notch... I can't get over that, especially when these things are placed in a tray.

 

Congrats, Apple. You look the least like a spoiled, bratty child in this line up.

 

 

Hardly...you should do a little reading into the nano sim debacle.  Apple insisted roayalty-free patents for the new sim and tray if all other manufaturers dropped their patents relating to the sim - that's an outrageous demand to make, and one that Apple would never agree to if things had been the other way round (Apple's proven themselves fond of protecting their IP/patents).

 

As for the notch - not everyone uses a tray or wants to have the manufacturing expense that's required for the designing the tray and it's manufacturing equipment.  Apple is trying to force the tray onto anyone who wants to use the 4FF, whereas the Rim/Moto solution has essentially the same card, but suitable for tray or push-push loading.  Contrary to what Apple seem to want people to people, most push-push sim devices already take up less space in the phone than the bulkier tray option, so the space savings for the 4FF with Apple's implementation aren't as great as the other proposals.

 

Hopefully it is the modded design that gets officially announced - it's the only solution that meets most handset manufactures requirements.

post #44 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybacmac View Post

It ain't over 'til the Finnish lady sings. The article is not clear whether Nokia is going along with this or are they going to cause trouble. Just what the industry needs--another court case. 

Yeah yeah - no need to get your underwear all twisted...

 

 

http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/1/3056893/nokia-nano-sim-etsi-patent-frand

 

But you're right about there being way too many court cases...though Apple is just as bad as the rest when it comes to those tactics...

post #45 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

The idea of designing a thing that you remove once every two years around a technology designed to facilitate daily removal is laughable.

 

Never mind the dirt that will get in there… unless you have a door or stupid little piece of rubber over it. Which then forces you to design your phone around the door and the depth of the SIM area is increased to the same as if you had used a tray in the first place. Not to mention that I don't understand how having the hardware needed for the push-push feature could take up less space than a bare slot with pin contacts ready for a tray to be pushed in.

 

Never mind also that no inset tab is needed for push-push, as evidenced by any push-push SD card implementation. Their design is an excuse to get new patents and have total control. Apple just made the existing design smaller.

 

I keep seeing you come out with the same arguement all the time.  I really do wonder what devices you use, as the vast majority of people (including me!) don't have any issue with dirt, covers snapping off (which is almost a non-issue compared to if the tray getting snapped or bent!) or the likes with push-push sims.  And when I'm travelling abroad and pick up a local sim, it's easy and risk-free, unless for some reason you decide to change the sim during a dust-storm. 

 

Go out and find a selection of phones with external capped push-push sim slots - some are badly designed, but more aren't.

 

And if you don't understand why push-push hardware takes up less space than the trays, go find some blueprints and you'll see!

 

And your comment about SD cards isn't totally relevant - ALL microSD cards have some kind of notch on them, and microSD is the memory mobile phones use. All SD cards have a notch - it's miniSD that doesn't.

 

Have a look at the wiki page for the clear images:

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroSD

post #46 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by emig647 View Post

 

Considering most current smart phones, similarly compared to most pc laptops, they definitely do not design their products with precision. There are bigger gaps, clunkier refinements. Taking this into account, it most certainly would be collecting dust.

 

 

Yeah, and the same arguement can then translate to when those manucturers make trays for their 4FF nano-sim - poorly designed clunky trays that have a tendency to pop out and let dirt in can easily become a very serious reality.  Apple's margins on an iPhone are HUGE compared to pretty much every other handset manufacturer so they can afford very high end manufacturing processes to ensure their hardware meets their expected standards - and as it's other high-end devices that currently also have tray-based SIMs, we've not had to deal with trays coming from the cheaper side...

post #47 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

WAIT, what am I thinking?! Why not a push-push tray?

 

Then you don't need any hole-pokers and both sides get what they want. Except, you know, the side that isn't Apple, because they wanted control over the entire format.

 

 

*cough*  Yeah, just as Apple has wanted complete control over the format too!  Both sides want control - to say otherwise is just ridiculous, but the non-Apple side has compromised to meet the differing requirements...

post #48 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by arob View Post
Yeah, just as Apple has wanted complete control over the format too!

 

What, uh… what control? Somehow Apple controls the format by having it use existing patents they don't own and a design backwards compatible with all old SIMs? As opposed to the brand new design desired by others.

post #49 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by arob View Post

And your comment about SD cards isn't totally relevant - ALL microSD cards have some kind of notch on them, and microSD is the memory mobile phones use. All SD cards have a notch - it's miniSD that doesn't.

Have a look at the wiki page for the clear images:
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroSD

In all fairness (an aside to this discussion I guess) it seems to me miniSD has notches too, but it doesn't go the full thickness of the card. On the top side, about a third of the way down from the top edge, on the left and right edges.

This photo shows it better:
http://www.ztostore.com/product_images/x/mini_sd_4gb__52090.jpg
Edited by JeffDM - 6/2/12 at 1:37pm
post #50 of 58

As always, it's fun to see the dinosaurs scatter as the meteorite plunges to earth. Unless you're a dinosaur. Why we need a piece of plastic to make a cell phone work in 2012 is beyond me, honestly.

post #51 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybacmac View Post

It ain't over 'til the Finnish lady sings. The article is not clear whether Nokia is going along with this or are they going to cause trouble. Just what the industry needs--another court case. 

 

Nokia is pretty much gone. Android and iOS clearly rules the roost now. RIM is game over. It's left to Nokiasoft to salvage whatever they can, ie. sloppy thirds.

post #52 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

From the Verge:

Nokia now says that it will license any essential patents to the standardized 4FF under FRAND terms, meaning any OEM will be able to use or make nano-SIM cards without fear that Nokia will deny licensing and threaten an injunction. That's not to say Nokia's happy — it still calls Apple's card "technically inferior and not suitable for a number of applications."



Here's Nokia's full statement:




Nokia continues to believe that the selected nano-SIM proposal is technically inferior and not suitable for a number of applications, but the ETSI Smart Card Platform Technical Committee has now made its decision. Nokia believes that the existing micro-SIM (3FF) will continue to be a preferred option for many manufacturers and devices and so ultimately the market will decide whether 4FF is widely adopted.


As Nokia believes that ETSI has taken steps to address Nokia's original concerns over the standardization process, we have advised ETSI that we are prepared to license any Nokia patents which are essential to implement the standard, on FRAND terms.





Separately, a Nokia spokesman tells us that he "believes" the selected design was Apple's — not the Motorola-RIM compromise proposed several weeks ago that included an additional notch for so-called "push-push" designs. If true, this means that it'll be more difficult to design nano-SIM phones that use slots to hold the card rather than a tray, but we're still looking for confirmation. More on this as it develops.



Now here is the article! This is the actual information one wants to read, not the AI article as that was only generating questions that pop up in ones' head after reading it. I cannot understand why the articles on this site always lack the information that the posters (have to) provide. I am clueless to the lack of accuracy and information from AI on subjects from a company that make it their business to really think things through. The difference in attention to detail is night and day.

Fortunately posters like you provide answers, links - thanks much.
Send from my iPhone. Excuse brevity and auto-corrupt.
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post #53 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregInPrague View Post

 

Why is push-push a horrible idea?  The tray is not a huge problem, but having to hunt for a paper clip the few times I've needed to swap SIMs between iPhones with my wife is irritating. 

100% agree, very annoying getting the tray out of the iPad and iPhone sometimes. 

post #54 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

100% agree, very annoying getting the tray out of the iPad and iPhone sometimes. 

 

 

Agreed!  I simply cannot understand the logic from the likes of Tallest Skil who think that the sim tray solution is the only viable solution - why is forcing a system that has to have a tool to operate it a move forward?  Needing no tools is a move forward (or in Nokia's case, standing still...) - requiring tools is about 5 steps back in comparison.  And arguements of paper clips being available all around the world really completely miss the point - why force the use of tools when there are already perfectly safe and solid methods (push-push) that do away with the need for fiddly tools?  For all those door flaps that have been broken by kids playing with sim and SD card slots, you'll end up with a twisted, bent sim tray that doesn't fit in it's slot - just as child unfriendly, if not moreso!

post #55 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by arob View Post


Agreed!  I simply cannot understand the logic from the likes of Tallest Skil who think that the sim tray solution is the only viable solution - why is forcing a system that has to have a tool to operate it a move forward?  Needing no tools is a move forward (or in Nokia's case, standing still...) - requiring tools is about 5 steps back in comparison.  And arguements of paper clips being available all around the world really completely miss the point - why force the use of tools when there are already perfectly safe and solid methods (push-push) that do away with the need for fiddly tools?  For all those door flaps that have been broken by kids playing with sim and SD card slots, you'll end up with a twisted, bent sim tray that doesn't fit in it's slot - just as child unfriendly, if not moreso!

Who has bent a tray? I think you have to really be trying. SIM cards are a lot more fragile than Apple's current SIM tray. I really don't understand your objection to "tools" - it's an extremely positive system that has practically zero chance of accidental ejection. Children aren't going to be accidentally ejecting them.
post #56 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by arob View Post
Agreed!  I simply cannot understand the logic from the likes of Tallest Skil who think that the sim tray solution is the only viable solution

 

You'll notice I also proffered the 'push-push tray' compromise. But a slot push-push is a bad idea.

 

Quote:
For all those door flaps that have been broken by kids playing with sim and SD card slots, you'll end up with a twisted, bent sim tray that doesn't fit in it's slot - just as child unfriendly, if not moreso!

 

Letting children fiddle with your phone and damage it in such a way is your problem, not the phone's nor the manufacturer's. This isn't a valid argument.

post #57 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

You'll notice I also proffered the 'push-push tray' compromise. But a slot push-push is a bad idea.

 

 

Letting children fiddle with your phone and damage it in such a way is your problem, not the phone's nor the manufacturer's. This isn't a valid argument.

 

 

You keep saying push-push is a bad idea, but I'm still unclear as to why it's such a bad idea? I'm trusting you have other reasons that the one you keep stating, as from my experience I don't agree with your criticisms for push-push.  As as for children - children are children, how can you honestly expect to be able to guard against a child at all times?  Not saying it's gonna be a regular occurrence, but some kids like poking things into things so there's nothing stopping them with a cocktail stick or whatever, popping open the SIM tray and having a closer look/play. Whether it's accessible SIMs or fragile screens, or just a child spilling a drink - every phone is susceptible to children!  You're point is a moot to use against just push-push SIMs.  And for the record, no children have ever broken any aspect of my mobile phones since I've used one, and a fair amount of my phones have had accessible SIM and microSD card slots with flaps that have never broken or been yanked off.  And having an accessible microSD slot has been a real bonus - hotswapping my usual memory card for one that's just films or the likes when I'm travelling (though not really an option for an iPhone user, I guess).

 

And I don't actually recall saying it was the manufacture or phone's problem if the tray got damaged...I was merely pointing out that the tray has it's inherent design issues as well, which you seem unwilling to concede.  Really, having ANY kind of sim tray or slot opens the door for potential issues, so you can't really single out just the push-push.  The only safe way to do it would be to go digital based SIMs that the network operator would have to load on the phone, but that would need a lot more thought put into it, as from what I've heard about it, it really only suits a US-style market where most handsets are bought from the network operator on contract, rather than a lot of other places where handsets are bought direct from the manufacturer or a retailer.

post #58 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by arob View Post
You keep saying push-push is a bad idea, but I'm still unclear as to why it's such a bad idea? I'm trusting you have other reasons that the one you keep stating, as from my experience I don't agree with your criticisms for push-push.

 

Every push-push device I've ever owned has had the mechanism break long before the device's main function failed. In some cases, the push-push breaking broke the rest of the device, as it was required for its use. That's also the case with SIM cards. I don't really see how a tray could break.

 

Quote:
As as for children - children are children, how can you honestly expect to be able to guard against a child at all times?

 

By not putting things in their reach. For some mind-boggling reason, parenting is as much a learning experience for the parent as it is the child.

 

"No! Don't touch that. Here, I'll just put it right back where it was when you managed to get to it the first time. No! Now it's broken!"

 

Quote:

Really, having ANY kind of sim tray or slot opens the door for potential issues, so you can't really single out just the push-push.

 

Thing about a tray is it's not just going to go popping out willy nilly. It's like a cattle knot; the cow can pull on the end rope all it wants, but that just tightens the knot. The action that causes a positive response (removing the SIM by pushing) should NOT be able to be the same action that causes a negative response (bump the SIM area, SIM pops out). That's why I like a tray. Push-push tray has that problem, but your other solution is much better:

 

Quote:
The only safe way to do it would be to go digital based SIMs that the network operator would have to load on the phone, but that would need a lot more thought put into it, as from what I've heard about it, it really only suits a US-style market where most handsets are bought from the network operator on contract, rather than a lot of other places where handsets are bought direct from the manufacturer or a retailer.

 

Phones are basically data-based all the time now, right? So it's simple. Go to the telecom's website on the device, sign up a new account, it sends a packet to the device to verify it has phone capability, and then it downloads the new SIM data onto the device. Reboot and you're on the new carrier.

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