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AT&T CEO says data-only subscriptions 'inevitable' for wireless networks - Page 2

post #41 of 76
Before we all start dumping voice packages and go data only, have they managed to find a solution for 911 calls?
post #42 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando View Post

Before we all start dumping voice packages and go data only, have they managed to find a solution for 911 calls?

The solution was found years ago, but it costs the company money to implement. I remember the fight Vonage was having with customers and governments over it.
post #43 of 76

Just use a GoPhone SIM on iPhone -- problem solved.

 

I know someone who does exactly that.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

America. They don't give those out. And it doesn't matter, because I'd have to go with a regional carrier (or T-Mobile) that doesn't have the iPhone to be allowed to a plan without data, anyway.

post #44 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post
Just use a GoPhone SIM on iPhone -- problem solved.

 

I know someone who does exactly that.

 

AT&T. They'll add the data plan.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply
post #45 of 76
You know what else is inevitable Randall? Apple buying a carrier and forcing its competition to the roles they should have- dumb data pipes that behave like utility companies. No advertising budget, no idiot CEOs, no deliberate consumer confusion and tiered plans. THAT is the future RANDALL.
post #46 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by iansilv View Post

You know what else is inevitable Randall? Apple buying a carrier and forcing its competition to the roles they should have- dumb data pipes that behave like utility companies. No advertising budget, no idiot CEOs, no deliberate consumer confusion and tiered plans. THAT is the future RANDALL.

Not likely at all. Apple relies on the carriers to sell most of its phones. They're not going to piss off the carriers for some nebulous gains.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
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post #47 of 76
Its called an ipad.
post #48 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"I'll be surprised if, in the next 24 months, we don't see people in the market place with data-only plans," Stephenson said. "I just think that's inevitable."

 

The thing that's most ridiculous about Stephenson's statement is that he acts like this is something new and totally visionary.

 

The FACTS? I had a data-only AT&T plan on my Palm Treo 680 in 2007, which I got right before the original iPhone came out.

 

When I bought my iPhone 4 in 2010, AT&T forced me to forfeit my data-only plan. Over the past two years, AT&T has billed me hundreds of dollars for phone service that I don't even use.

post #49 of 76

Wrong, all you do is buy minutes with the prepaid cards at local supermarkets, etc.

 

No data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

AT&T. They'll add the data plan.

post #50 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by theJoshMeister View Post

When I bought my iPhone 4 in 2010, AT&T forced me to forfeit my data-only plan. Over the past two years, AT&T has billed me hundreds of dollars for phone service that I don't even use.

 

You fight that by refusing to upgrade ever. Verizon can pry my crappy flip phone when I'm dead and buried if they continue to refuse to allow us the plans we want. Maybe in 90 years they'll be able to shut off their old spectrum… lol.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post
Wrong, all you do is buy minutes with the prepaid cards at local supermarkets, etc.

 

No data.

 

Wrong, AT&T sees the iPhone on the network and adds the data plan. If you get to use 'know someone' stories, I do, too. Two optometrists, both with unlocked (via jailbreak) iPhones, both on Centennial. They don't have data with them because they have no use for it, one, and two because Centennial didn't support the right bands. Centennial gets bought by AT&T, and they get messages saying data plans have been added to their accounts. They're doctors, they're rich, they can afford it, but they were ticked off like no other. I think they've moved to T-Mobile by now… with unlocked iPhones still.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply
post #51 of 76

You are just flat out wrong, GoPhone sim in original iPhone for YEARS with no data.  I set the phone up and regularly observed this working on the device.  Speaking from experience.  

 

Plans?!  I never said anything about a plan, this is where you buy x number of hours for $25 at a Jewel, and activate the card via phone, and then that amount is added to your GoPhone sim.  There is no plan!!!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Wrong, AT&T sees the iPhone on the network and adds the data plan. If you get to use 'know someone' stories, I do, too. Two optometrists, both with unlocked (via jailbreak) iPhones, both on Centennial. They don't have data with them because they have no use for it, one, and two because Centennial didn't support the right bands. Centennial gets bought by AT&T, and they get messages saying data plans have been added to their accounts. They're doctors, they're rich, they can afford it, but they were ticked off like no other. I think they've moved to T-Mobile by now… with unlocked iPhones still.

post #52 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post
You are just flat out wrong, GoPhone sim in original iPhone for YEARS with no data.  I set the phone up and regularly observed this working on the device.  Speaking from experience.

 

Plans?!  I never said anything about a plan, this is where you buy x number of hours for $25 at a Jewel, and activate the card via phone, and then that amount is added to your GoPhone sim.  There is no plan!!!

 

You're on their network, they can see it, they do whatever they want. That's all I know.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply
post #53 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

You're on their network, they can see it, they do whatever they want. That's all I know.


I have helped several people get setup on ATT with iphones and no data. First, setup a line without data using a different phone. Then turn off cellular data on the iphone and pop the chip in. If using an iphone 4 or 4s, just cut the sim to size and it works just fine. They've been using this for years and only use data when they are on wifi. Other than that, the phone, sms, gps, location service, etc portions work just fine. I was just like you, adamant about ATT forcing data plans because it happened to me. But after seeing that it hasn't happened to my friends, probably has to do with turning cellular data off, I know it's possible.

post #54 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

You are just flat out wrong, GoPhone sim in original iPhone for YEARS with no data.  I set the phone up and regularly observed this working on the device.  Speaking from experience.  

 

Plans?!  I never said anything about a plan, this is where you buy x number of hours for $25 at a Jewel, and activate the card via phone, and then that amount is added to your GoPhone sim.  There is no plan!!!

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

You're on their network, they can see it, they do whatever they want. That's all I know.

 

I have no "I know someone who..." story, but I have an interest in this because I'd like to do it myself.

 

That said, just reading the back-and-forth here with no bias, I think Tallest is misunderstanding Liberty's description, or at least missing part of it.

 

If you don't have a plan at all, and AT&T is not your provider, then there's no plan to add anything onto.  Here's the problem I see:

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

... Two optometrists, both with unlocked (via jailbreak) iPhones, both on Centennial. ...

 

... Centennial gets bought by AT&T ...

 

 

 

 

The phones may have been unlocked, but they were still on a plan, and those plans became AT&T plans, so from a technical standpoint AT&T can do whatever they want.  Right?  As long as they don't mind being seen as assholes.

 

[edit: I just looked up GoPhone and see that they are also now owned by AT&T, so a big: huh?]

 

So, Liberty, can you elaborate a bit on the GoPhone method?  What I'm interested in is having a pre-pay iPhone without ANY kind of plan.  In other words, just like if you went to any of the cell booths around and said "Hi, I'm John/Jane Doe; I'd like a phone with no plan", hand them some cash and be on your way.  (No, I'm not doing anything illegal, I'm just sick and tired of every damn thing people do being tracked, monitored and used for profiling)  Anyway, this works fine with cheap phones, but not so much with an iPhone as far as I can tell.

 

What I'd really like is to do this and have data but no voice plan whatsoever.  It could even be very minimal plan.  Like Tallest, I have an old flip phone for voice that I refuse to give up, and have no problem carrying two devices.  I'm within WiFi coverage 95% of the time, so a Touch or laptop work great, but it would just be nice to occasionally be able to look things up when that's not the case.

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post #55 of 76

Also, EVERYONE should read this:

 

How US Carriers Fool You Into Thinking Your iPhone 4s Is Unlocked

 

Someone else posted a link to this recently, and it's a very, very informative article.

 

There are actually 4 different versions of iPhone 4s.  They just don't tell you.

No Matte == No Sale :-(
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post #56 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post

Also, EVERYONE should read this:

 

How US Carriers Fool You Into Thinking Your iPhone 4s Is Unlocked

 

Someone else posted a link to this recently, and it's a very, very informative article.

 

There are actually 4 different versions of iPhone 4s.  They just don't tell you.

Proof as in a link confirming this.

post #57 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by iansilv View Post

You know what else is inevitable Randall? Apple buying a carrier and forcing its competition to the roles they should have- dumb data pipes that behave like utility companies. No advertising budget, no idiot CEOs, no deliberate consumer confusion and tiered plans. THAT is the future RANDALL.

I'm doubt that very much. It's always a bad idea to go into competition with your customers.
post #58 of 76

Horrible person.  It's good to study the company you're allying with.  AT&T wanted to hold us all hostage.  It's important not to forget that, and patronize the alternative services instead.

post #59 of 76

I can confirm this also works on a 3GS that I saw work like this today as well.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

You're on their network, they can see it, they do whatever they want. That's all I know.

post #60 of 76

Yes, AT&T GoPhone, just take a phone only SIM from an activated GoPhone into an unlocked iPhone.  Add voice/sms credits to the phone with a card you buy at any retails store selling them.  No need for any data plan.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post

 

 

I have no "I know someone who..." story, but I have an interest in this because I'd like to do it myself.

 

That said, just reading the back-and-forth here with no bias, I think Tallest is misunderstanding Liberty's description, or at least missing part of it.

 

If you don't have a plan at all, and AT&T is not your provider, then there's no plan to add anything onto.  Here's the problem I see:

 

 

 

 

The phones may have been unlocked, but they were still on a plan, and those plans became AT&T plans, so from a technical standpoint AT&T can do whatever they want.  Right?  As long as they don't mind being seen as assholes.

 

[edit: I just looked up GoPhone and see that they are also now owned by AT&T, so a big: huh?]

 

So, Liberty, can you elaborate a bit on the GoPhone method?  What I'm interested in is having a pre-pay iPhone without ANY kind of plan.  In other words, just like if you went to any of the cell booths around and said "Hi, I'm John/Jane Doe; I'd like a phone with no plan", hand them some cash and be on your way.  (No, I'm not doing anything illegal, I'm just sick and tired of every damn thing people do being tracked, monitored and used for profiling)  Anyway, this works fine with cheap phones, but not so much with an iPhone as far as I can tell.

 

What I'd really like is to do this and have data but no voice plan whatsoever.  It could even be very minimal plan.  Like Tallest, I have an old flip phone for voice that I refuse to give up, and have no problem carrying two devices.  I'm within WiFi coverage 95% of the time, so a Touch or laptop work great, but it would just be nice to occasionally be able to look things up when that's not the case.

post #61 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post
Yes, AT&T GoPhone, just take a phone only SIM from an activated GoPhone into an unlocked iPhone.  Add voice/sms credits to the phone with a card you buy at any retails store selling them.  No need for any data plan.

 

Must anything be done on your end to ensure you don't rack up any data charges?

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply
post #62 of 76

Data packages are completely separate for GoPhone today, and not required.  But you CAN, however, buy a data package for a GoPhone with smartphone.  Supposedly pay-per-use data is not available on smartphones.  The data part does not apply as the user I know does not use cellular data -- just WiFi.  

 

 

Keep in mind, when I am talking about using an iPhone, in all cases it is an iPhone that is already OFF CONTRACT, and either jailbroken/unlocked or officially unlocked.  Works either way.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Must anything be done on your end to ensure you don't rack up any data charges?


Edited by libertyforall - 6/3/12 at 8:22pm
post #63 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post
Supposedly pay-per-use data is not available on smartphones.  The data part does not apply as the user I know does not use cellular data -- just WiFi.

 

So if you use an app that requires data and you're nowhere near a Wi-Fi network, it won't call out to the network and rack up off-plan charges?

Even my flip phone will do that if you press the wrong button (by default, which I'm certain was their intention. You make one mistake on the home screen and boom, a $5 charge for 00:00:00 data time after you cancel immediately) or menu selection… 

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply
post #64 of 76

So, AT&T will fully unlock say an original iPhone and 3GS that are no longer on contract after two years, but Verizon and Sprint will not on the 4S?  

 

Seems AT&T would as well for a 4S, once it also met the criteria, no?  What am I missing?  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post

Also, EVERYONE should read this:

 

How US Carriers Fool You Into Thinking Your iPhone 4s Is Unlocked

 

Someone else posted a link to this recently, and it's a very, very informative article.

 

There are actually 4 different versions of iPhone 4s.  They just don't tell you.

post #65 of 76

No, it will say something like data cannot be activated, or similar...  I forget the exact message.  

 

 

Also, you do realize there is a "Cellular Data" on/off button in Settings...  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

So if you use an app that requires data and you're nowhere near a Wi-Fi network, it won't call out to the network and rack up off-plan charges?

Even my flip phone will do that if you press the wrong button (by default, which I'm certain was their intention. You make one mistake on the home screen and boom, a $5 charge for 00:00:00 data time after you cancel immediately) or menu selection… 


Edited by libertyforall - 6/3/12 at 8:51pm
post #66 of 76

The 4S hasn't been out long enough to be "off contract" yet

post #67 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

So if you use an app that requires data and you're nowhere near a Wi-Fi network, it won't call out to the network and rack up off-plan charges?

Even my flip phone will do that if you press the wrong button (by default, which I'm certain was their intention. You make one mistake on the home screen and boom, a $5 charge for 00:00:00 data time after you cancel immediately) or menu selection… 


The trick in that case is to ensure you don't leave more prepaid balance on your phone than you actually require for the foreseeable future.

 

Assuming you did start racking up unintentional pay-per-use charges, as soon as those charges exceed your prepaid balance, you would run out of credit.  When you have no prepaid credit anymore, everything stops.  That would serve as a pretty clear indication that you need to re-examine your usage before purchasing your next prepaid top-up.

 

AT&T claims, however, that pay-per-use data isn't even an option for smart phones on the GoPhone service.  I honestly don't know if I should interpret that to mean that they'd actively prevent any pay-per-use data from passing through such a phone, or conversely if it means that they'd attempt to deduct funds from your prepaid balance to pay for a data add-on package.

 

However, iPhones running iOS 4 and above do have a configuration switch you can flip to turn off all cellular data on a system wide basis.  This ought to protect you from the consequences of finger trouble in any other components of iOS or in 3rd party Apps.


Edited by lfmorrison - 6/4/12 at 5:16am
post #68 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

Been there, doing that right now in Finland and enjoying it. Data only subscriptions are soooooo 2008... 

When I got my first iPhone it added € 10 per month on top of my € 20 for the data. Increased to 12,50 last year, so no sweat over here in The Netherlands. Feel sorry for the Americans, they are certainly being ripped off. Are the Finnish subscriptions cheap?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmvsm View Post

The one thing that they are good at is billing you for substandard service. You can bet that their billing will be on time every month, regardless of how crappy their service is. 

Stephenson can suck it.

Probably outsourced. AT&T: All Telco Tragedy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando View Post

Before we all start dumping voice packages and go data only, have they managed to find a solution for 911 calls?

To what problem? Doesn't the iPhone still allow you to dial 911 without a SIM card/subscription/prepaid/whatever? Mine works (though I dial 112)
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post #69 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post


To what problem? Doesn't the iPhone still allow you to dial 911 without a SIM card/subscription/prepaid/whatever? Mine works (though I dial 112)


In the USA, the FCC has mandated a requirement that cellular telcos must process every 911 call from every technologically compatible mobile telephone, even if the mobile phone has never been registered for service with the telco, or if its previous service agreement has lapsed.

 

Under relevant GSM standards, it is technologically possible for a GSM phone to place a call to the designated emergency number without a SIM card being inserted in the phone. (In fact, most phones are preprogrammed to recognize 911, 999, and 112 as interchangeable, and will automatically handshake with the local GSM service provider to route the call to the correct call center, regardless of which of those three numbers were dialed.)  Therefore, it follows that, in the USA, calls to 911 from such SIM-less phones are legally required to be serviced.


Edited by lfmorrison - 6/4/12 at 12:27pm
post #70 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

So, AT&T will fully unlock say an original iPhone and 3GS that are no longer on contract after two years, but Verizon and Sprint will not on the 4S?  

Seems AT&T would as well for a 4S, once it also met the criteria, no?  What am I missing?  

You can pay AT&T to unlock an iPhone that's still in contract. Don't remember how much it costs, but I think it depends on how much is left on the contract.
post #71 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfmorrison View Post


In the USA, the FCC has mandated a requirement that cellular telcos must process every 911 call from every technologically compatible mobile telephone, even if the mobile phone has never been registered for service with the telco, or if its previous service agreement has lapsed.

Under relevant GSM standards, it is technologically possible for a GSM phone to place a call to the designated emergency number without a SIM card being inserted in the phone. (In fact, most phones are preprogrammed to recognize 911, 999, and 112 as interchangeable, and will automatically handshake with the local GSM service provider to route the call to the correct call center, regardless of which of those three numbers were dialed.)  Therefore, it follows that, in the USA, calls to 911 from such SIM-less phones are legally required to be serviced.

The problem had to do with the problem of locating where the call from a VOIP device was coming from, a requirement for 911 calls. In the beginning, the location couldn't be guaranteed.
post #72 of 76

I think the Finnish phone rates and subscriptions are some of the lowest in the world. I am getting "real" unlimited data for about 20 dollars or so a month.

post #73 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


The problem had to do with the problem of locating where the call from a VOIP device was coming from, a requirement for 911 calls. In the beginning, the location couldn't be guaranteed.


Ah, so the assumption was that a person using an iPhone on a data-only plan would naturally use Skype (or something equivalent) for all his/her telephone calls, and therefore that person would automatically pull up Skype when an emergency arose and they needed to place a call to 911.  Certainly a valid concern.  How has Skype managed to convince the FCC that it either complies with, or else ought to be exempt from, that regulation when it comes to calls originating on its regular PC application?

 

On the other hand, certainly the Skype app could also recognize the fact that somebody was attempting to dial an emergency number, and automatically redirect the request back to the iOS native cellular dialer -- in the USA, as established above, such a call would be guaranteed to go through even if the phone isn't attached to a voice plan.  Then, all the normal geo-location mechanisms associated with all cellular phone calls would be available.

post #74 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfmorrison View Post


Ah, so the assumption was that a person using an iPhone on a data-only plan would naturally use Skype (or something equivalent) for all his/her telephone calls, and therefore that person would automatically pull up Skype when an emergency arose and they needed to place a call to 911.  Certainly a valid concern.  How has Skype managed to convince the FCC that it either complies with, or else ought to be exempt from, that regulation when it comes to calls originating on its regular PC application?

On the other hand, certainly the Skype app could also recognize the fact that somebody was attempting to dial an emergency number, and automatically redirect the request back to the iOS native cellular dialer -- in the USA, as established above, such a call would be guaranteed to go through even if the phone isn't attached to a voice plan.  Then, all the normal geo-location mechanisms associated with all cellular phone calls would be available.

I believe that Skype came after Vonage. I don't know of you remember, but Vonage was advertising itself as a phone replacement, both for your home phone, and then later, for your cell. Even for your home phone, VOIP couldn't tell where you were without some complex routines. Vonage didn't want to apply that to every sub, because they said it cost too much.

It's easier now that cell phones have GPS. But think upon when they didn't. How would 911 know where you were calling from?
post #75 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


I believe that Skype came after Vonage. I don't know of you remember, but Vonage was advertising itself as a phone replacement, both for your home phone, and then later, for your cell. Even for your home phone, VOIP couldn't tell where you were without some complex routines. Vonage didn't want to apply that to every sub, because they said it cost too much.
It's easier now that cell phones have GPS. But think upon when they didn't. How would 911 know where you were calling from?


When cell phones didn't have GPS, telcos used to use tower triangulation to get (at least) a rough idea where a call was coming from.  As long as the telcos could guarantee that these location techniques generated results that were accurate to within 300 metres over a certain percentage of their subscription base, they satisfied E911 requirements.  This data might be computed by the phone and transmitted back to the telco, or it might be computed by the towers themselves; in the latter case it might not have been directly accessible by the handset itself (or, consequently, by any software running within the handset).  Clearly, then, it would be cumbersome to include this information as part of a 911 call being transmitted over a VoIP app running on the phone -- unless either the VoIP provider or the handset manufacturer had some sort of protocol in place with the telco to share that tower location information.  (Apple's pre-GPS original iPhone model did have such a cell tower triangulation system, and the coordinates derived from that service was made available to any apps running on the phone.)

 

On the other hand, since we've established that it's possible to complete a voice-over-standard-cellular-service call to 911 originating on any cell phone in the USA regardless of whether or not any voice plan has been activated on that cell phone, it follows that a perfectly reasonable workaround would be, as I stated before, for the VoIP app to detect all 911 calls and automatically redirect them to the phone's native dialer.  In that case, all the normal techniques for locating the origin of a cellular phone call would apply.

post #76 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post

Also, EVERYONE should read this:

 

How US Carriers Fool You Into Thinking Your iPhone 4s Is Unlocked

 

Someone else posted a link to this recently, and it's a very, very informative article.

 

There are actually 4 different versions of iPhone 4s.  They just don't tell you.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

Proof as in a link confirming this.

 

Just getting back to this.  Are you asking for a link when I posted a link?  huh?!

No Matte == No Sale :-(
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No Matte == No Sale :-(
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