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First look: Apple's next-gen MacBook Pro with 15" Retina display - Page 3

post #81 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post

Tiny little nitpick: I hope Apple fixed the light leaks around the edges of the keys when the keyboard backlighting is on.  The edge lighting is uneven and you can see through the gaps.  Just a minor cosmetic issue.

I hope Apple eventually replaces the plastic keys with glass too.  But no, not holding my breath on that one.  Would be nice though.  :-)

I've got 'glass keys' and retina display, and 4G LTE in an incredibly thin and light iPad that cost less than $900. Just sayin, Apple has you covered.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #82 of 129

Like anyone cares but this is just all the more proof that Apple no longer wishes to sell computers to PROFESSIONALS.  I don't know, maybe someone at Apple reads these boards, and these do not exist just to help sell more Apple products...

 

The new MacBook "Pro" is not a "Pro" product at all!.  Apple should be ashamed  to place that moniker on this release!  This is the least upgradable computer I've ever seen -- at least until Thunderbolt expansion options start to be reasonably priced and proven. The memory is soldered to the main board, meaning you are stuck with what ever you bought for the life of the product. It comes with a solid state drive as its only storage source -- it too is proprietary and cannot be replaced by a user "pro" or not.  The battery is "glued" in so at the BEST you will have to return to Apple to have it replaced when it dies.  It is basically a throw away computer -- not suitable for "pros" really.  It is a computer for "dummies".  There is not much you can screw up outside of dropping it in the bathtub or something else really abusive or plain stupid like any other electric appliance.


Moreover, I believe the 15" display is too small for "pro" use (Retina display or not).  The type of things I do require screen real estate -- not to make things more readable as much as to get everything that needs to be seen at once at a size that is reasonable.  I had 1600 x1200 15" display and the resolution was fine in terms of detail, but to get everything I need to see on the screen at once, it was soooo small I nearly went blind.  This might not apply to others and it is possible to hook up a second monitor if you are at home or care to carry one around with you.

To sum up, it is not a computer I would buy! Performance boost or not...

post #83 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidB View Post

Could you please explain? As far as I know the legacy MacBook Pro owner's manuals give instructions for user replacement of the hard drive and memory.

My understanding is that your warranty remains intact so long as you don't damage anything in the act of performing the upgrade. If you torqued a connector somewhere or something like that, then they're probably going to charge you to replace the part.

If you're really worried about it, you can pay an Apple authorized service center to do the upgrade for you. Machines of some generations are better than others, so you probably should go look up some instructions. The iFixit guides are very good, if you get all the recommended tools, set aside some time to avoid rushing, follow the directions step by step, and keep proper track of the screws, you'll be fine.

Yes, it is also my understanding that the warranty is not violated by replacing the hard drive or memory; otherwise why would Apple give instructions for doing it in the user manual?

 

(I was asking SteveH to explain why he said, "As long as you don't need to worry about warranty service any more..." in answer to agramonte's having said, "You know you can just buy an SSD and put it in a legacy MacBook Pro.")


Edited by DavidB - 6/17/12 at 12:37pm
post #84 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by mess View Post

Like anyone cares but this is just all the more proof that Apple no longer wishes to sell computers to PROFESSIONALS. I don't know, maybe someone at Apple reads these boards, and these do not exist just to help sell more Apple products...

The new MacBook "Pro" is not a "Pro" product at all!. Apple should be ashamed to place that moniker on this release! This is the least upgradable computer I've ever seen -- at least until Thunderbolt expansion options start to be reasonably priced and proven. The memory is soldered to the main board, meaning you are stuck with what ever you bought for the life of the product. It comes with a solid state drive as its only storage source -- it too is proprietary and cannot be replaced by a user "pro" or not. The battery is "glued" in so at the BEST you will have to return to Apple to have it replaced when it dies. It is basically a throw away computer -- not suitable for "pros" really. It is a computer for "dummies". There is not much you can screw up outside of dropping it in the bathtub or something else really abusive or plain stupid like any other electric appliance.

Moreover, I believe the 15" display is too small for "pro" use (Retina display or not). The type of things I do require screen real estate -- not to make things more readable as much as to get everything that needs to be seen at once at a size that is reasonable. I had 1600 x1200 15" display and the resolution was fine in terms of detail, but to get everything I need to see on the screen at once, it was soooo small I nearly went blind. This might not apply to others and it is possible to hook up a second monitor if you are at home or care to carry one around with you.

To sum up, it is not a computer I would buy! Performance boost or not...

1) So you think it's Pro to not be able to update PCIe, CPU or GPUs in a notebook?

2) If you can't figure out how remove 1 screw to the get to the non-proprietary, custom SSD-card then perhaps you're not as "pro" as you think you are.

3) I don't care for the soldered RAM but that certainly don't make it non-"pro". Notebooks have always moved this way. At one point no "pro" would have ever used a notebook as they were just expensive "toys" fore executives. There are benefits to these changes whether you like them or not.

4) 15" notebooks aren't used by "pros" and yet they were the most common size sold before Apple introduced the 13". On top of that the 17" seems to sell very poorly. That should tell you that your definition of "pro" is inaccurate.

5) Can you tell use why a professional writer needs a 17" MBP? Can you tell us why a professional who could benefit from a larger display would only settle for a 17" display with notebook-grade components instead of a large desktop display and desktop-grade components? I'm sure there is a group that would find a 17" notebook and no other HW an ideal match for their needs but for you to suggest that this very small group are the only possible professionals in the world is fucking retarded.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #85 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidB View Post

Yes, it is also my understanding that the warranty is not violated by replacing the hard drive or memory; otherwise why would Apple give instructions for doing it in the user manual.

(I was asking SteveH to explain why he said, "As long as you don't need to worry about warranty service any more..." in answer to agramonte's having said, "You know you can just buy an SSD and put it in a legacy MacBook Pro.")

From a legal standpoint I'd say that if they offer you manuals on how to repair or replace certain components yourself then they can't fault you for doing so unless you have damaged the product in the process unless you can prove their directions were to blame for the damage.

As for Apple's actual policy I have found they are very lenient with after market mods. I have a 13" MBP which I've removed the ODD and installed an OptiBay sled so I can have 2 SATA drives in my machine. I'm also using after market RAM. I've taken it in for repair and diagnosis on several occasions and not once have I been turned away because of my setup.

I was told on one occasion that if it was an issue with my mod they would have remove it so they could see the results of the system without it. I was also informed that if I mailed my machine in for repair they might not be as lenient but years ago I had a Mac that was acting up right after a point update and after all SW related troubleshooting I sent the machine in only to get it back a day later with my 3rd RAM removed as being the culprit. They even put in the minimum RAM for that system to run which is above and beyond what i think anyone should expect and I doubt they do that today.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #86 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Considering Apple knew this and then changed it... and then changed it back I have to assume they have their reasons and have sorted it out. The new MagSafe connector does look considerably larger than the original.
Perhaps the side mounted cable didn't allow for a proper "pop off" when tension was applied thus causing the connectors to wear improperly if pulled sideways or making the utility of MagSafe considerably less effective if one were to trip on the cable.
Anyone want to cut into the two straight cabled connectors to see what differences are inside?

I have to say, Apple has not been to good with some of their cables. Not the power cables, etc. More the various "thin white cables."

I go through iPod/iPhone charging cables like crazy and they always fall apart in the same place/way. Ear buds, the same.

post #87 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I don't remember, but it was probably 1-2 years. The model number is ST95005620AS if that helps.

I have the same in a Windows laptop. The NAND cache helps in some cases, like when playing Rage, a game which constantly pages textures in from the hard drive, but in general use, you wouldn't know it had any SSD.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #88 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


Just like every machine ever made by anyone. Upgrade your RAM and swap your hard drives all you want… it's still a laptop. Good luck changing the CPU and GPU.
Stop the FUD.

It would seem that anything Tallest Skill doesn't agree with becomes "FUD" in his mind.

Tone down the so called "moderation" a bit, open your mind to the wider array of possible viewpoints, and learn to enjoy life with it's colorful array of people and ideas!

post #89 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by DESuserIGN View Post

I have to say, Apple has not been to good with some of their cables. Not the power cables, etc. More the various "thin white cables."

I go through iPod/iPhone charging cables like crazy and they always fall apart in the same place/way. Ear buds, the same.

 

The ear buds are an absolute nightmare. The good news is it is usually easy to find someone in your family with an iOS device still under warranty, so getting them replaced is usually pretty easy. Sooner or later Apple will have to improve the quality of these cables/ear buds since it is probably costing them a lot to replace so many of them.

 

And before anyone complains this is exploiting the system, the buds I had replaced on my sister's warranty were actually her set since she doesn't use the stock ear buds. So it is as if she had used them. In any case, these cables/ear buds should not be failing at such high rates to begin with, so one could argue this just helps accelerate Apple's resolving the issue.

post #90 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by DESuserIGN View Post

It would seem that anything Tallest Skill doesn't agree with becomes "FUD" in his mind.
Tone down the so called "moderation" a bit, open your mind to the wider array of possible viewpoints, and learn to enjoy life with it's colorful array of people and ideas!

Hardly. Proliferating the idea that computers are "disposable items" any more than they had already been due to soldered RAM is ridiculous, hence FUD.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #91 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


1) So you think it's Pro to not be able to update PCIe, CPU or GPUs in a notebook?
2) If you can't figure out how remove 1 screw to the get to the non-proprietary, custom SSD-card then perhaps you're not as "pro" as you think you are.
3) I don't care for the soldered RAM but that certainly don't make it non-"pro". Notebooks have always moved this way. At one point no "pro" would have ever used a notebook as they were just expensive "toys" fore executives. There are benefits to these changes whether you like them or not.
4) 15" notebooks aren't used by "pros" and yet they were the most common size sold before Apple introduced the 13". On top of that the 17" seems to sell very poorly. That should tell you that your definition of "pro" is inaccurate.
5) Can you tell use why a professional writer needs a 17" MBP? Can you tell us why a professional who could benefit from a larger display would only settle for a 17" display with notebook-grade components instead of a large desktop display and desktop-grade components? I'm sure there is a group that would find a 17" notebook and no other HW an ideal match for their needs but for you to suggest that this very small group are the only possible professionals in the world is fucking retarded.

It is obvious that your definition of PRO and mine are widely different.  In my world this is a disposable "consumer" oriented piece of hardware.  

 

1) If Thunderbolt external devices come down in price and are proven to work with the equipment I need -- then I might change my mind.  BTW, I have never known a computer to be able to upgrade the PCIe bus without a new motherboard. And I've never known a laptop to be able to upgrade the CPU of GPU -- I don't understand your point there.  But this MacBook Pro has NO upgrade options except for those that MIGHT be possible via Thunderbolt. 

 

2) If you go to iFixIt I think you'll find it takes more than 1 screw to get at the SSD which being proprietary will not be able to be replaced by anything but an Apple SSD for the MacBook Pro…  

 

3) I'd like to know the benefits to us who do REAL computing and it has been some time since they were considered expensive toys for business user.  And it was Apple that got us REAL PROs addicted to the PRO line.

 

4), 5) POPULARITY a PRO computer does not make.  I also told you why a PRO may need a larger display -- read my post again. Sure I can read a 5 point font, but can I get all of the graphic displays I need up and large enough to see from 3 foot away. A professional is a person that makes their living from special knowledge and their tools have special needs.  Different needs have different requirements and those requirements change over time.  Over time I've been able to upgrade my current 17" MacBook Pro and it is still very usable after 3 years of use.  I've upgraded the fixed drive, the memory, and external devices that continue to work reliably even as they have evolved over time.  PRO gear is suppose to be able to meet those differing requirements and keep up. All of the downsides I listed are almost certainly cost cutting by Apple and make it so you'll have to REPLACE it with the next big change in your industry! This is a step backwards for those professionals that need a portable professional computer with OS X and most of MY peers agree...


Edited by mess - 6/17/12 at 4:01pm
post #92 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by mess View Post

Sure I can read a 5 point font, but can I get all of the graphic displays I need up and large enough to see from 3 foot away.

Before we continue can you clarify what you mean by that?

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #93 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Before we continue can you clarify what you mean by that?

Sure if you do digital data collection from analog devices

post #94 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by mess View Post

It is obvious that your definition of PRO and mine are widely different.  In my world this is a disposable "consumer" oriented piece of hardware.  

 

1) If Thunderbolt external devices come down in price and are proven to work with the equipment I need -- then I might change my mind.  BTW, I have never known a computer to be able to upgrade the PCIe bus without a new motherboard. And I've never known a laptop to be able to upgrade the CPU of GPU -- I don't understand your point there.  But this MacBook Pro has NO upgrade options except for those that MIGHT be possible via Thunderbolt. 

 

2) If you go to iFixIt I think you'll find it takes more than 1 screw to get at the SSD which being proprietary will not be able to be replaced by anything but an Apple SSD for the MacBook Pro…  

 

3) I'd like to know the benefits to us who do REAL computing and it has been some time since they were considered expensive toys for business user.  And it was Apple that got us REAL PROs addicted to the PRO line.

 

4), 5) POPULARITY a PRO computer does not make.  I also told you why a PRO may need a larger display -- read my post again. Sure I can read a 5 point font, but can I get all of the graphic displays I need up and large enough to see from 3 foot away. A professional is a person that makes their living from special knowledge and their tools have special needs.  Different needs have different requirements and those requirements change over time.  Over time I've been able to upgrade my current 17" MacBook Pro and it is still very usable after 3 years of use.  I've upgraded the fixed drive, the memory, and external devices that continue to work reliably even as they have evolved over time.  PRO gear is suppose to be able to meet those differing requirements and keep up. All of the downsides I listed are almost certainly cost cutting by Apple and make it so you'll have to REPLACE it with the next big change in your industry! This is a step backwards for those professionals that need a portable professional computer with OS X and most of MY peers agree...

 

1) False. Go to ifixit and you will see that you can upgrade the Wifi card and the ports card. There are a total of 3 removeable circuit boards in the RMBP distinct from the motherbaord. Simply because no third party will offer you the upgrade possibility along with new drivers doesn't mean the machine isn't upgradeable in principle.

 

2) Again false. The MBA in the first weeks it was released has proprietary SSDs as well, that certainly didn't stop third parties from coming up with alternative solutions. Even your ifixit site is very clear, there are no upgradeable SSD boards, and here is their important locution, yet. That hardly means there won't be in a few weeks or in a few months.

 

3) Ladida. How impressive that you are a "real" computer user whereas all the rest of us who do work every day all day in our professions, on computes, aren't "real" but rather posers/fakes.

post #95 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe98 View Post

 

1) False. Go to ifixit and you will see that you can upgrade the Wifi card and the ports card. There are a total of 3 removeable circuit boards in the RMBP distinct from the motherbaord. Simply because no third party will offer you the upgrade possibility along with new drivers doesn't mean the machine isn't upgradeable in principle.

 

2) Again false. The MBA in the first weeks it was released has proprietary SSDs as well, that certainly didn't stop third parties from coming up with alternative solutions. Even your ifixit site is very clear, there are no upgradeable SSD boards, and here is their important locution, yet. That hardly means there won't be in a few weeks or in a few months.

 

3) Ladida. How impressive that you are a "real" computer user whereas all the rest of us who do work every day all day in our professions, on computes, aren't "real" but rather posers/fakes.

Yes for those that want to void their warranty there are always solutions.  I've upgraded the CPUs on my Mac Pro 1,1 AFTER it was out of warranty.

I'm SORRY if I made you and/or others think I feel like they are posers -- that was not my intention.  My intention was that not every PRO user is a graphics artist or a publisher or even computer developer. Please look up the definition of professional.  This product is a step backwards for me and others in my industry and that makes me sad because I really prefer Mac OS X...

post #96 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by mess View Post

Please look up the definition of professional.  This product is a step backwards…

Enlighten us.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #97 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by mess View Post

Yes for those that want to void their warranty there are always solutions.  I've upgraded the CPUs on my Mac Pro 1,1 AFTER it was out of warranty.
I'm SORRY if I made you and/or others think I feel like they are posers -- that was not my intention.  My intention was that not every PRO user is a graphics artist or a publisher or even computer developer. Please look up the definition of professional.  This product is a step backwards for me and others in my industry and that makes me sad because I really prefer Mac OS X...

Right, and increasingly so you guys are fringe cases. The problem is that you go on to generalize that Apple abandonned professionals in general simply because a few professionals like you were left out of the party. You should correct your complaint to:

Apple abandonned a couple of us....
post #98 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe98 View Post


Right, and increasingly so you guys are fringe cases. The problem is that you go on to generalize that Apple abandonned professionals in general simply because a few professionals like you were left out of the party. You should correct your complaint to:
Apple abandonned a couple of us....

Yes that's true.  But the price of computing had been coming down -- not going up.  Now that I've become addicted the price has gone up and the quality (i.e. engineering exceptional products) has gone down. Moreover, It doesn't make it any less true that IMHO this is the least upgradeable computer in it's category on the market.  IMHO it is a consumer product not a professional product.

 

I'm not trying to convert the masses.  I'm sorry if I offend your sensibilities, BUT, if the group of people that I interact with are any indication THIS IS A STEP BACKWARDS and because we're left out of the party we have to take a step in a direction we don't really want to go in! Fortunately, that is more possible today than it was in the mid 90's. If Apple wants or accepts feedback, this is the truth and it is my hope they will at least consider another point of view.  I understand marketing and the likes that one has to appeal to the masses, but it is not the masses that Apple computers appealed to until lately.  Like I said it was Apple that went down that path that allowed us to join the party and now they've turned their backs.  I still remember how it was when Apple almost went down in flames and us "fringe cases" stood by anyway.  Only Steve Jobs really new… How sad!

 

Like I said IF Thunderbolt turns out *I* could be converted, but for now the people I know have to start looking in another direction for our immediate needs.

 

 

 

Quote:
Tallest Skil "enlighten us"

I think I've said all I can -- agree or disagree -- I've said my piece. Everything I can say is contained in my previous posts.  If you want go to Webster's dictionary for a definition of "professional", they can probably do a better job than I can.

 

post #99 of 129

In my mind, there are 3 things people typically upgrade: (1) HDs, (2) RAM, (3) Batteries. Let's examine the case for each one concerning having "upgradability" possibilities built-in from a design standpoint.

 

 

(1) Turns out the SSDs are upgradable so this is a non-issue.

 

(2) RAM. Well, the CPU sets to absolute limit of how much RAM you can use in a machine. Ivy Bridge is 32gbs. So, should Apple include socketed RAM in their machines from a design standpoint? My answer is no. The socketed variety take up more space that can be better utilised for larger batteries or slimmer, thinner, lighter designs, i.e. more portability. Rather than upgradable RAM I'd simply prefer that Apple sold the laptops with 8gb, 16gb, and 32gb configurations. That would make this entire "upgradability" of RAM business a non-starter. So the complaint isn't about the design of the new laptops, but Apple's failure to give sufficient configuration options.

 

(3) Batteries. The current batteries, under warranty, are guaranteed to last roughly 1000 cycles, so at minimum 3 years plus change. After than to change the battery it costs 200$. Well, put 20 cents away each day in savings and you'll have enough to replace the battery when it dies. So again, don't put clunky slots and latches that reduce battery sizes and portability potential.

 

So, from an open-minded quick examination, I can't see the merit of having upgradable designs. But maybe when I hear the otherwise articulated clearly and in a non-hyperbolic way I'll be persuaded otherwise. Let's see what complainers have to say.


Edited by johndoe98 - 6/17/12 at 6:14pm
post #100 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe98 View Post


Right, and increasingly so you guys are fringe cases. The problem is that you go on to generalize that Apple abandonned professionals in general simply because a few professionals like you were left out of the party. You should correct your complaint to:
Apple abandonned a couple of us....

 

Yeah, it's a completely arbitrary definition of 'pro' and represents someone's personal viewpoint. Which of course, they think represents everybody.

 

For Apple, it's a question of percentages. If the Retina display model outsells the less expensive non-retina 15" MacBook Pro, then I'd say the "Pros" have spoken with their dollars. If on the other hand, the non-retina display model outsells the retina display model, then Apple may have to reconfigure their Pro lineup...perhaps adding the retina display to the old chassis, or add thickness back to keep the RJ-45 and FW800 ports. Either way, you still have a choice, and Apple is paying close attention.

 

As for expandability, well, the old style MBP can upgrade both RAM and HDD, while the retina display MBP can swap its SSD only. So get one with the maximum RAM available: 16GB. It's possible that someone like OWC will offer aftermarket SSD upgrades, like they do for the MacBook Airs (link). That maximizes your upgrade options.

 

I'm unsure of what I want. I personally love the MacBook Air for its ultra-portability, so I don't need my MacBook Pro to be ultra-portable. When it comes time to finally replace the old MBP, I might get a Mac Pro instead and hook up a 27" Cinema Display.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #101 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by mess View Post

think I've said all I can -- agree or disagree -- I've said my piece. Everything I can say is contained in my previous posts.  If you want go to Webster's dictionary for a definition of "professional", they can probably do a better job than I can.

187172

You've chosen a far narrower definition of 'professional' than is accepted by dictionaries, hence my request for further explanation. Your posts have shown that you're part of that very small fringe group unwilling to make any changes whatsoever to your mindset.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #102 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe98 View Post


Right, and increasingly so you guys are fringe cases. The problem is that you go on to generalize that Apple abandonned professionals in general simply because a few professionals like you were left out of the party. You should correct your complaint to:
Apple abandonned a couple of us....

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


187172
You've chosen a far narrower definition of 'professional' than is accepted by dictionaries, hence my request for further explanation. Your posts have shown that you're part of that very small fringe group unwilling to make any changes whatsoever to your mindset.

Ok you lured me in lol.gif, but I don't believe my definition is narrower.  I am a professional. I expect a Professional Product to meet the needs of professionals. It is that simple.  My professional needs may be on the "fringe", but that is just an opinion too -- are you sure.  Lots of people didn't think going to Intel processors was a good idea either -- I did. It opened opportunities -- not closed them.  But, I could be wrong too. But I think I speak for many hard core computing professional -- Just my opinion.

post #103 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

You've chosen a far narrower definition of 'professional' than is accepted by dictionaries, hence my request for further explanation. Your posts have shown that you're part of that very small fringe group unwilling to make any changes whatsoever to your mindset.

There is nothing narrow about his definition, only his mindset. What he's describing is an elitist viewpoint not a technical one.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #104 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by mess View Post

 

Ok you lured me in lol.gif, but I don't believe my definition is narrower.  I am a professional. I expect a Professional Product to meet the needs of professionals. It is that simple.  My professional needs may be on the "fringe", but that is just an opinion too -- are you sure.  Lots of people didn't think going to Intel processors was a good idea either -- I did. It opened opportunities -- not closed them.  But, I could be wrong too. But I think I speak for many hard core computing professional -- Just my opinion.

Reply to post 99 please. Tell me what are the advantages, from a professional standpoint, to upgradability. I give an argument there demonstrating that no matter who you are, there is no advantage to upgradable designs in the sense you seem to be employing the term. Try and refute it, with argument and reason, if you can. Don't fling cheap talking points and hyperbole. If your intent is to troll, better not reply at all.

 

My bet is you'll now turn this into a money issue, not a design one. "Apple's parts are too expensive" wah wah wah. But note that has nothing to do whatsoever with professional issues.

post #105 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

187172
You've chosen a far narrower definition of 'professional' than is accepted by dictionaries, hence my request for further explanation. Your posts have shown that you're part of that very small fringe group unwilling to make any changes whatsoever to your mindset.

Regardless of what definition he chooses, I don't see anything in the definition you provided that says a professional needs onboard Ethernet or discrete graphics or 17" screen, anyway.
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Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
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post #106 of 129

I'm glad Apple did what they did - give us a choice between two machines that both appear to be good values.  I'd love to get one of the retina models for the screen and size, but I'm a bit put off by the lack of upgradability - 256 GB isn't sufficient for me (and I'll be in Afghanistan for the next year, so cloud solutions won't work).  On the other hand, the pricing doesn't seem outrageous given the screen and SSD. 

 

For those people who need more storage and prefer more expandability, the non-retina model is clearly better.  For those who don't need extensive storage and don't mind the added cost, I think it is hard to argue with the retina model. 

 

I also think the retina model shows how the Air and 13" MBP are headed - the 13" MBP will continue to be ultimately faster (albeit not by much!), and continue to offer more ports and flexibility.  I do think it's unfortunate Apple is moving to more closed systems, but all I can do is to vote with my wallet and buy one of the systems that is upgradable (if that continues to be a sticking point - it might not be, depending on the storage options).

post #107 of 129
Quote:

Originally Posted by mess View Post

 

I've never known a laptop to be able to upgrade the CPU of GPU -- I don't understand your point there.

Judging from your posts, there's lots of things you don't understand. But, let me enlighten you at least on these two points:

 

 

 

.tsooJ

post #108 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by gyorpb View Post

Judging from your posts, there's lots of things you don't understand. But, let me enlighten you at least on these two points:

 

 

 

.tsooJ

I stand corrected

 

To all others I quote:

 

Quote:

... the MacBook Pro was originally touted as an accessible, repairable machine — at Macworld in 2009, Steve Jobs said, “Our pro customers want accessibility: [...] to add memory, to add cards, to add drives.”

from : http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/06/opinion-apple-retina-displa/

 

Let those who want a small thin "unrepairable" consumer oriented device have the iPads, MBAs or the MBs -- GIVE US WHO NEED IT a workstation quality portable device that is repairable and expandable....  There are many more of these site I can quote if you like.  Not that I would ever compare my self to Christ, but "let he who has ears listen" (I'm sure I'll get flamed for that quote too).

post #109 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by mess View Post

Ok you lured me in lol.gif , but I don't believe my definition is narrower.  I am a professional. I expect a Professional Product to meet the needs of professionals. It is that simple.  My professional needs may be on the "fringe", but that is just an opinion too -- are you sure.  Lots of people didn't think going to Intel processors was a good idea either -- I did. It opened opportunities -- not closed them.  But, I could be wrong too. But I think I speak for many hard core computing professional -- Just my opinion.

I'm a professional too. The RMBP meets my needs. What now?
post #110 of 129

Hope this helps those anxious few get an idea of how long it may be taking.  I ordered a Retina 2.3Ghz 250GB HD, 16GB RAM within an hour and a half of the Apple store coming back online last Monday.  All times are Pacific.

 

 

Select time zone:
Pacific
 


To display the shipment travel activity in local time of the scan, please select "Local Scan Time" time zone option.
Date/Time
Activity
Location
Details
Jun 18, 2012 7:02 AM
On FedEx vehicle for delivery
SAN JOSE, CA
 
Jun 18, 2012 6:41 AM
At local FedEx facility
SAN JOSE, CA
 
Jun 18, 2012 4:00 AM
Departed FedEx location
OAKLAND, CA
 
Jun 17, 2012 7:13 PM
Arrived at FedEx location
OAKLAND, CA
 
Jun 17, 2012 6:25 PM
In transit
SAN JOSE, CA
 
Jun 17, 2012 1:23 PM
Departed FedEx location
MEMPHIS, TN
 
Jun 17, 2012 7:57 AM
International shipment release - Import
MEMPHIS, TN
 
Jun 16, 2012 9:14 PM
Arrived at FedEx location
MEMPHIS, TN
 
Jun 16, 2012 7:38 AM
In transit
SHANGHAI CN
 
Jun 16, 2012 7:25 AM
International shipment release - Import
SHANGHAI CN
 
Jun 16, 2012 12:08 AM
Left FedEx origin facility
SHANGHAI CN
 
Jun 15, 2012 8:40 PM
Shipment information sent to FedEx
 
 
Jun 15, 2012 7:08 PM
Picked up
SHANGHAI CN

 

 

 

post #111 of 129

Oh yeah, and forgot to mention that I asked for 2-3 days expedited shipping and Apple's estimated delivery date was originally June 21-25, and Fedex's estimated delivery date (once they picked it up) was listed as June 20 by 12pm.  I also had mine shipped to a business address to get it delivered more towards the beginning of the day as opposed to the end.

post #112 of 129

I also ordered an external usb DVD drive as well as the magsafe to magsafe 2 converter and they did not seem to affect my delivery at all.  In fact I received those 2 items last week.

post #113 of 129

Just wanted to clear a few things up regarding the review I posted.

 

First, I will tell you that I am a huge Apple fan so my negative review has nothing to do with liking or disliking Apple as a whole.

 

I actually went to the local retail store immediately after the WWDC keynote to see if they had the Retina MacBook Pro available for sale yet. I had been waiting for months to buy a new MacBook and wanted to get it ASAP. Monday afternoon they told me that they had not yet received any. I called several other Apple Stores within a few hours' drive and they all had the same story. My local store suggested that I try again on Tuesday.

 

Tuesday morning I was at the Apple Store right at opening as I wanted to make sure I got the system even if they only have a few to sell. I figured if I called before I went over they may have already sold out of whatever they had. Again I was told that they didn't have any and I should try back later in the week.

 

Wednesday morning I once again was at the store for the opening. As soon as I walked in and asked about the Retina MacBook Pro I was told that they had received only two units, both the higher end 2.6GHz/512GB model and that another person who was in the store early for a training class had actually already bought one of the two. I immediately bought the other one.

 

The only reason I mention the above is to show that I didn't just look at one in the store or borrow a friend's so that I could write a negative review. I had intended for this to be my great new computer and ended up being disappointed.

 

I won't rehash my whole review here, but I'll try to give you a little more insight as to why I don't like the new Retina model.

 

1. A lot of people have mentioned that my comparison between the Retina and the non-Retina model is not fair because you get the SSD with the Retina model and adding the SSD to the non-Retina model makes it even more expensive than the Retina one. This is true. No argument there from me. My thing is that some people (like myself) may not really care about the SSD and wouldn't normally spend the money to upgrade the non-Retina model with an SSD. My issue with the new system is that Apple forces you to pay the extra money for the SSD even if you don't want it. Obviously this is due to the slimness of the system so I can't fault them for that, but for me it is not worth an extra $450 just to have the SSD when on the non-Retina model you get 50% more storage space with the 750GB 7200RPM HDD. I'd rather have more storage and $450 in my pocket than less storage and the SSD. That's just me though. If you really need the extra speed from the SSD then it might work out different for you. To me it's not worth it when combined with my next point.

 

2. I'm not impressed with the screen. If I was in love with the screen then maybe the combination of the Retina screen and the SSD would seem like a good deal to me for $450, but since I don't like the screen at all it kind of throws the whole thing off. I would actually prefer if I could get the "Retina" model without the Retina display. Yes, you can adjust the desktop space to be the same as 1680x1050, or even up to 1920x1200, but if you do that you are defeating the purpose of having the Retina display. The Retina display only works in "Retina mode" at 1440x900. I'd rather have 1680x1050 anti-glare than 1440x900 Retina glossy.

 

3. With the above two points in mind (forced to buy SSD, and rather having 1680x1050 anti-glare screen) the loss of the ports and other expansion options didn't go over too well with me. For one pound more and $450 less I get a screen that I like better, more storage (granted it isn't nearly as fast as the SSD), Ethernet port, Firewire port, and an optical drive that I can either use as is, or I can replace it with a second hard drive (maybe even an SSD) if I want to in the future. I can also easily change out the drive and add more RAM without having to spend the money right now on the $200 16GB upgrade from Apple.

 

4. I use the Adobe CS5 suite. Now that CS6 is out you can be almost sure that Adobe will not release a "Retina" patch for the older CS5 software. So for me that means either shelling out hundreds of dollars to upgrade to CS6, just so I can take advantage of the Retina display, or just running the system in the non-Retina 1680x1050 mode or 1920x1200 mode. I'd rather keep my CS5 for the time being and buy the non-Retina model that gives me 1680x1050 that can work with my existing software. This of course isn't Apple's fault, but I suspect that many people will be in this same situation as Adobe upgrades are expensive to keep up with and lots of people are running older versions.

 

Hopefully this helps you understand my reasoning for not liking the Retina model. If I thought it was great and worth the money I would have kept it, so all I can leave you with is that I bought it, used it for several days, and ended up returning it and buying the 15" non-Retina model with the upgraded hi-res anti-glare screen and upgraded 750GB 7200RPM hard drive. Your mileage may vary but I stand by my review.

post #114 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


Hardly. Proliferating the idea that computers are "disposable items" any more than they had already been due to soldered RAM is ridiculous, hence FUD.

Well, that is certainly your opinion, but labeling anything that deviates from your opinion "FUD" is not. It's just childish name calling.

 

If the RAM is soldered in, the the batteries are glued in, and the display is bonded in, then there has been a definite move away from repairability, upgradeability, long product life, recyclability, and ease of disposal. That isn't FUD, it's a simple FACT of design, usability, and engineering.

Open your mind to consider ideas different from your own.

post #115 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowbuster View Post

First, I will tell you that I am a huge Apple fan so my negative review has nothing to do with liking or disliking Apple as a whole.

As an aside, not related to anything, why is it trolls that always feel they have to start every post with "I'm an Apple fan, but…"?
Quote:
My issue with the new system is that Apple forces you to pay the extra money for the SSD even if you don't want it.

You're certain of this?
Quote:
…the loss of the ports and other expansion options didn't go over too well with me.

Nor did they in 1997 with some iMac users.
Quote:
…you can be almost sure that Adobe will not release a "Retina" patch for the older CS5 software.

Isn't that the truth… :broken_grumble_emoticon.gif:

I'm still sort of confused why you haven't (or maybe you have) just returned the computer since you don't like the screen, and since that's the entire point of the device.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #116 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I'm still sort of confused why you haven't (or maybe you have) just returned the computer since you don't like the screen, and since that's the entire point of the device.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowbuster View Post
If I thought it was great and worth the money I would have kept it, so all I can leave you with is that I bought it, used it for several days, and ended up returning it and buying the 15" non-Retina model with the upgraded hi-res anti-glare screen and upgraded 750GB 7200RPM hard drive.
post #117 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by jouster View Post


I'm a professional too. The RMBP meets my needs. What now?

I am glad it does for you!  As for now what do you have selective sight, did you read my previous post?

 

Quote:

... the MacBook Pro was originally touted as an accessible, repairable machine — at Macworld in 2009, Steve Jobs said, “Our pro customers want accessibility: [...] to add memory, to add cards, to add drives.”

from

 

Quote:

: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/06/opinion-apple-retina-displa/

 

Let those who want a small thin "unrepairable" consumer oriented device have the iPads, MBAs or the MBs -- GIVE US WHO NEED IT a workstation quality portable device that is repairable and expandable....  There are many more of these site I can quote if you like.  Not that I would ever compare my self to Christ, but "let he who has ears listen" (I'm sure I'll get flamed for that quote too).

post #118 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowbuster View Post

Just wanted to clear a few things up regarding the review I posted.

First, I will tell you that I am a huge Apple fan so my negative review has nothing to do with liking or disliking Apple as a whole.

I actually went to the local retail store immediately after the WWDC keynote to see if they had the Retina MacBook Pro available for sale yet. I had been waiting for months to buy a new MacBook and wanted to get it ASAP. Monday afternoon they told me that they had not yet received any. I called several other Apple Stores within a few hours' drive and they all had the same story. My local store suggested that I try again on Tuesday.

Tuesday morning I was at the Apple Store right at opening as I wanted to make sure I got the system even if they only have a few to sell. I figured if I called before I went over they may have already sold out of whatever they had. Again I was told that they didn't have any and I should try back later in the week.

Wednesday morning I once again was at the store for the opening. As soon as I walked in and asked about the Retina MacBook Pro I was told that they had received only two units, both the higher end 2.6GHz/512GB model and that another person who was in the store early for a training class had actually already bought one of the two. I immediately bought the other one.

The only reason I mention the above is to show that I didn't just look at one in the store or borrow a friend's so that I could write a negative review. I had intended for this to be my great new computer and ended up being disappointed.

I won't rehash my whole review here, but I'll try to give you a little more insight as to why I don't like the new Retina model.

1. A lot of people have mentioned that my comparison between the Retina and the non-Retina model is not fair because you get the SSD with the Retina model and adding the SSD to the non-Retina model makes it even more expensive than the Retina one. This is true. No argument there from me. My thing is that some people (like myself) may not really care about the SSD and wouldn't normally spend the money to upgrade the non-Retina model with an SSD. My issue with the new system is that Apple forces you to pay the extra money for the SSD even if you don't want it. Obviously this is due to the slimness of the system so I can't fault them for that, but for me it is not worth an extra $450 just to have the SSD when on the non-Retina model you get 50% more storage space with the 750GB 7200RPM HDD. I'd rather have more storage and $450 in my pocket than less storage and the SSD. That's just me though. If you really need the extra speed from the SSD then it might work out different for you. To me it's not worth it when combined with my next point.

2. I'm not impressed with the screen. If I was in love with the screen then maybe the combination of the Retina screen and the SSD would seem like a good deal to me for $450, but since I don't like the screen at all it kind of throws the whole thing off. I would actually prefer if I could get the "Retina" model without the Retina display. Yes, you can adjust the desktop space to be the same as 1680x1050, or even up to 1920x1200, but if you do that you are defeating the purpose of having the Retina display. The Retina display only works in "Retina mode" at 1440x900. I'd rather have 1680x1050 anti-glare than 1440x900 Retina glossy.

3. With the above two points in mind (forced to buy SSD, and rather having 1680x1050 anti-glare screen) the loss of the ports and other expansion options didn't go over too well with me. For one pound more and $450 less I get a screen that I like better, more storage (granted it isn't nearly as fast as the SSD), Ethernet port, Firewire port, and an optical drive that I can either use as is, or I can replace it with a second hard drive (maybe even an SSD) if I want to in the future. I can also easily change out the drive and add more RAM without having to spend the money right now on the $200 16GB upgrade from Apple.

4. I use the Adobe CS5 suite. Now that CS6 is out you can be almost sure that Adobe will not release a "Retina" patch for the older CS5 software. So for me that means either shelling out hundreds of dollars to upgrade to CS6, just so I can take advantage of the Retina display, or just running the system in the non-Retina 1680x1050 mode or 1920x1200 mode. I'd rather keep my CS5 for the time being and buy the non-Retina model that gives me 1680x1050 that can work with my existing software. This of course isn't Apple's fault, but I suspect that many people will be in this same situation as Adobe upgrades are expensive to keep up with and lots of people are running older versions.

Hopefully this helps you understand my reasoning for not liking the Retina model. If I thought it was great and worth the money I would have kept it, so all I can leave you with is that I bought it, used it for several days, and ended up returning it and buying the 15" non-Retina model with the upgraded hi-res anti-glare screen and upgraded 750GB 7200RPM hard drive. Your mileage may vary but I stand by my review.

Cool. There's a 15 day return policy. Return your Retina MBP and buy one without retina. And send me half of the savings for offering you a solution.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
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post #119 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by mess View Post

Sure I can read a 5 point font, but can I get all of the graphic displays I need up and large enough to see from 3 foot away. 

...

Sure if you do digital data collection from analog devices

 

I used do this and frankly if you need the 17" so you can see from 3 feet away you're either a) doing it wrong or b) more blind than I am and that's saying something.  We pull data from sensors and plot them as well display raw data points.

 

For the record the PPI for a 17" 1920x1200 MBP is 132 PPI vs 128 PPI for the 1680x1050 15" MBP.  Meaning the text is smaller on the 17" MBP than the 15" MBP at the same text size.  Yes you can fit another few rows of data or a thin strip chart in the difference but it's a relatively stupid use case given most of the time you're more than normal distance from your laptop you're likely at a crappy angle, on the wrong side entirely, blocked by some gear, underneath some equipment or washed out by sunlight anyway.  Been there, done that.  If it's that critical you do 2 people and park one at the damn laptop or bring a longer cable set so you can park the laptop where you need to be.

 

These days if I have to do this again I'd rather have an ipad right next to me with the data I want on it via wifi rather than hope I can see the stupid laptop screen from wherever I happen to be.  I'm only willing to lug along a 17" laptop these days if it's an uber desktop replacement.  If it's going to be heavy and annoying anyway it might as well be a Dell or HP with a top end CPU/GPU combo.  Fortunately we got young guys to do this and it ain't my (back) problem.

post #120 of 129
Quote:
nht: I used do this and frankly if you need the 17" so you can see from 3 feet away you're either a) doing it wrong or b) more blind than I am and that's saying something.  We pull data from sensors and plot them as well display raw data points.

 

 

You know, I don't know how you can say that you have done what I do!  You know nothing about what I do.  I only said what I said to see what detail I needed to provide.

 

When you DID this was it real time, and did you have to react in near realtime, or not realtime at all? What sort of "dashboard" did you use to display the information.  Did your software have the ability to rescale to the dimensions you want without pixelation (except in extreme cases). Could you change the types of graphs and graphics (with text or not) you wanted to use.

 

It is a matter of screen real estate.  What I can tell you is that on a 1600X1200 15" screen was too small for my liking -- I much prefer the 17" display be it a MacBook Pro, Dell, or whatever.  If it is not a problem for you, fine -- use a 15" display, but don't make assumptions about what you know nothing about -- which is the details about the work I do.  So here are at least some of the details I would have provided:

 

It is not a matter of resolution -- 17" 1920x1200 works great for me regardless of how the pixels per inch figure out.  The resolution of the display is not that important and has never been a problem. I prefer to not have overlapping windows so I don't have to keep moving things to be able to see what I want to see at any given time. The more I can see -- even if it only on more line, the easier my job becomes Screen layout is paramount for my workflow. Looking for anomalies and "red" flags is what is important and being able to react quickly.  If I need to see greater detail I can zoom in on what I want to see at that time or later.  Others I know-- that do what I do -- agree with this.

 

You are welcome to your opinion, but don't judge what you don't understand.  Having a portable computer is important, but the MacBook Pro 17" I have is not a problem to "lug" IMHO. The number of devices I have to interface with would totally overwhelm an iPad -- even if the caliber of interface I need is available for USB -- the data loss would make my efforts worthless.  Having a portable computer is important. I've never had a problem being blocked by gear, but I do have to keep and eye on other things.  Sunlight is definitely not a problem. And there is never 2 people involved in the monitoring -- but there might be in the analysis.  

 

Moreover, that is a minor complaint compared to the other problems I have with the new Retina Display MacBook Pro and the direction Apple seems to be moving in. Please see: post #117

 

If you want to focus on one of my comments -- out of context, then flame away, flame away.

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