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Nokia credit now labeled junk by all three major credit-rating agencies

post #1 of 129
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Investment company Moody's became the last of the big-three credit-rating firms to downgrade Nokia to junk status on Friday, serving the Finnish phone maker yet another blow as it struggles to survive amidst a surging smartphone market.

Nokia's credit rating downgrade is the second such negative decision from Moody's in the past three months and comes one day after the communications company announced it would be cutting 10,000 jobs by the end of 2013 in cost-saving efforts, reports Bloomberg.

The world's former number one handset maker now holds a rating of Ba1, the highest non-investment grade, with a negative outlook Moody's said. In April Standard & Poor's and Fitch Ratings cut Nokia's standing and both have dismal outlooks for the company as revenue slips amid ongoing restructuring.

"[Nokia's plan] delineates a scale of earnings pressure and cash consumption that is larger than we had previously assumed,? said Wolfgang Draack, a senior vice president at Moody?s. As part of the restructuring effort the company expects to lose some 1.25 million euros, or about $1.58 million US, through the end of 2013.

Despite being a major player in Microsoft's new Windows Phone platform initiative, which some analysts believe will hold more market share than Apple's iPhone by 2016, Nokia saw smartphone shipments drop 60 percent year-on-year in the first quarter of 2012 while cheaper feature phone sales took a 16 percent hit during the same period. Overall, Nokia posted a loss of some $1.7 billion in quarter one with most of the steep decline blamed on the switch away from Symbian to Windows Phone. It was reported that the company actually made more money on a patent licensing settlement from Apple than it did selling the Lumia Windows Phone.

Lumia 900
Nokia's Lumia 900 Windows Phone.


Moving into 2012, CEO Stephen Elop warned that second quarter losses would be higher than expected and may be equally unfavorable in the quarter three. In a statement on Friday, Fitch analysts said that Nokia is looking at a "precarious combination of a depleted cash balance, without an end in sight to the declining cash flows."

Nokia stock fell 18 percent on Thursday after the dismal forecast was announced and has yet to regain any real footing.
post #2 of 129

Ouch.

Originally Posted by Granmastak: Labor unions managed to kill manufacturing a long time ago with their unreasonable demands. Now the people they were trying to protect, are out of a job.
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Originally Posted by Granmastak: Labor unions managed to kill manufacturing a long time ago with their unreasonable demands. Now the people they were trying to protect, are out of a job.
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post #3 of 129

I used to have a Nokia phone. That ended in 2005. Then I had a Sony-Ericsson phone.

 

In 2007 I got an iPhone.

 

End of story.

post #4 of 129

there is really nothing left, who looks for a "nokia" anything 

 

this will be the basis for mba thesis about failure

 

but in the tech world things happen much faster, much longer  for kmart vs walmart, now sears is a shadow of itself

 

really amazing

 

another mba subject   samsung, IP, and how lawyers can copy a phone

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post #5 of 129
It's not looking good for either Nokia or RiM. Which one is likely to go under first. RiM is closer to death's door but Nokia appears to be falling faster.

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post #6 of 129

What has Apple wrought!

 

Or, perhaps, I should say, what have we wrought.........

post #7 of 129
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Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

It's not looking good for either Nokia or RiM. Which one is likely to go under first. RiM is closer to death's door but Nokia appears to be falling faster.

 

This can't bode well for Microsoft and WP7.

post #8 of 129

All I'll say is both the hardware and software of the Nokia Lumia 900 Windows Phone look like cr@p!!

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post #9 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualZone View Post

All I'll say is both the hardware and software of the Nokia Lumia 900 Windows Phone look like cr@p!!

I'm quite a fan of both. I can't say I'd choose it over Apple's offerings but if the iPhone didn't exist (yet all this effort to compete with the iPhone still did) I'd certainly get a Lumia over an Android phone.

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post #10 of 129

Me, I'd rather take a BB Bold. Really!!
 

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post #11 of 129
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Originally Posted by AppleZilla View Post

I used to have a Nokia phone. That ended in 2005. Then I had a Sony-Ericsson phone.

 

In 2007 I got an iPhone.

 

End of story.


My story, too. I was a Sony Ericsson fanboy with a k800i looking forward to upgrading to the k850i, but when I saw a k850i in a store I was shocked at how crappy it was, and got an iPhone.

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post #12 of 129

Be-effing-leaguered!

post #13 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualZone View Post

All I'll say is both the hardware and software of the Nokia Lumia 900 Windows Phone look like cr@p!!

 

Then you are just a silly fanboy. It is a nice phone that by all accounts performs quite well.

 

-kpluck

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post #14 of 129

Hmm, great rebuttal...NOT!! Because I say they're both cr@p I'm a fanboy? So when someone doesn't agree with you they must be wrong? Maybe your opinion is cr@p.

 

p.s. I don't have an iPhone. My company pays for my cellphone so all I have to pay for is my land line.

 

p.s.s. One more thing Kerplunk...Microsoft blows!!

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post #15 of 129

everything in tech is accelerated. It has become like fashion, in one year out the next, except it doesn't repeat.  We aren't going to see a renewed popularity of the Nokia 1011

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post #16 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by tasslehawf View Post

 

This can't bode well for Microsoft and WP7.

You should add Windows 8 RT to that list. From what Nokia's saying, they may not be around by the time MS ships Crapware RT

"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #17 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by kpluck View Post

 

Then you are just a silly fanboy. It is a nice phone that by all accounts performs quite well.

 

-kpluck

 If the public don't buy it then it ainlt performing well at all. Its a stinker and is smelling up AT&T showrooms everywhere just laying there unwanted...road kill.

"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #18 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualZone View Post

Me, I'd rather take a BB Bold. Really!!
 

 

Really?? Just go into any Canadian truck stop restroom and you get one from a dispenser right next to the condom machine. Same price... I hear RIM has billions of them and are only dribbling them out onto the market. Not that they want to dribble them out, mind you... 

"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #19 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I'm quite a fan of both. I can't say I'd choose it over Apple's offerings but if the iPhone didn't exist (yet all this effort to compete with the iPhone still did) I'd certainly get a Lumia over an Android phone.

I agree. The ONLY thing wrong with WP7/8 is Apps.  I have a iphone and the HTC Titan. The Windows phone OS is great, easy to use, unique and has some great ideas within it, but, the app selection is terrible compared to Apple or Android.  Sad to see Nokia in the same toilet as RIM but they both decided the iphone wasn't anything to be worried about.

as someone else said. I had a Nokia once, then iPhone came out, end of story. Other than trying the Titan for a minute, I've had nothing but an iPhone and my Next phone will be an iPhone.

post #20 of 129

Hmmm, RIM, NOKIA, Microsoft all laughed at Apple back in 2007. Wow, tables have turned. 360! That's karma for you, betch!

Apple had me at scrolling
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post #21 of 129
Walking into a Staples , you wouldn't know Apple even existed. It's weird.

I wanted to get my newest book printed, professionally, for submission... I had to wait, and looked at their phones.

I must say the new phones look great! Everyones!

The Droid graphics on the display model really pulled me in. I thought "Motoralla". Ok. And the screen LOOKED huge. Mind you, the Motorolla was the only one that was powered apparently. Then I put my iPhone 4S over it, and it didnt seem so much bigger. But the screen was a lot bigger!

The sales person asked me if I wanted anything, (mind you I was there for something else), I said I was happy with my phone and just looking. Also, I did get to look at all the tablets... I really didn't know there were so many. There's a LOT! I was surprised. No iPad though.

Anyway, some rambulings. You guys say "I just ordered mine" a lot and I wanted to post my thought for the day.

By the way Staples can not do 'bleed edge' printing. For future reference...
post #22 of 129

I wonder if the value of Nokia's patents is now greater than their market cap.

post #23 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by iVlad View Post

Wow, tables have turned. 360!

I hate you
post #24 of 129
Apple should buy Nokia. That would give Micro$oft pause for thought. Then if all those analysts are correct Apple can manufacture both iOS devices and the "larger selling" Windoze phone and corner the device market again in a year or so. Apple could then offer Nokia phones with a choice of iOS or Windoze.

I bet Nokia's patent portfolio would be an interesting aquisition (or is it already gutted).

Besides, it's only fair. Apple can help Micro$oft out in its declining years (you know, returning the favor) and it might be entertaining and cause Balmer to throw a few more chairs.
post #25 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLuvin View Post

I agree. The ONLY thing wrong with WP7/8 is Apps.  I have a iphone and the HTC Titan. The Windows phone OS is great, easy to use, unique and has some great ideas within it, but, the app selection is terrible compared to Apple or Android.  Sad to see Nokia in the same toilet as RIM but they both decided the iphone wasn't anything to be worried about.
as someone else said. I had a Nokia once, then iPhone came out, end of story. Other than trying the Titan for a minute, I've had nothing but an iPhone and my Next phone will be an iPhone.
What makes the apps thing even worse is that WinPh7 is based on WinCE's kernel and WinPh8 will be based on WinNT's kernel. Besides making the apps completely incompatible it's a complete FU to all those that have supported MS's mobile endeavours. I understand if they did this years later but so soon after the launch is certainly a slap in the face.

Now I understand why MS wants and needs to do this. For starters WinPh7 certainly isn't working to attract devs which is hurting it's ability to attract users. Once they go with WinNT they will have a unified kernel and hopefully they are savvy enough to create development tools that will allow devs making Win8 RT apps to easily port them to WinPh8.

I might be wrong as this all just speculation on my part but this is the only strategy I can think of that makes burning those other bridges a reasonable strategy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vadania View Post

Walking into a Staples , you wouldn't know Apple even existed. It's weird.

And yet walking into a Starbucks you'd think Macs were the only PCs in existence and FaceBook was the OS and UI. :)

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post #26 of 129
Who didn't see this coming?
I remember going to Nokia's site back in 2005 and drooling over their sh**. But today( I have an iPhone 4) the iPhone 3s could beat everything in their former roster of cell phones. One iphone destroys 250 different Nokia phones. And when the new IPhone drops this fall Nokia and RIM be up for sell.
And HTC isn't far behind.
post #27 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by iVlad View Post

Hmmm, RIM, NOKIA, Microsoft all laughed at Apple back in 2007. Wow, tables have turned. 360! That's karma for you, betch!

 

This has to be the least well thought out post on the thread.

 

And not just because the angle is wrong - 360 degree turn = no change.

post #28 of 129

Or you need to think about it at a whole new level of incompetence.  Keystone Cops levels.

 

 

Here's another take on 360:    Q) How do you drive the RIM, Nokia and MS CEOs crazy?  A)  Put them in a round room and tell them there is an iPhone killer in the corner.

 

 

<VaudevilleStyle>Ba-da,bop. </VaudevilleStyle>

.
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post #29 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by softeky View Post

Apple should buy Nokia. That would give Micro$oft pause for thought. Then if all those analysts are correct Apple can manufacture both iOS devices and the "larger selling" Windoze phone and corner the device market again in a year or so. Apple could then offer Nokia phones with a choice of iOS or Windoze.
I bet Nokia's patent portfolio would be an interesting aquisition (or is it already gutted).
Besides, it's only fair. Apple can help Micro$oft out in its declining years (you know, returning the favor) and it might be entertaining and cause Balmer to throw a few more chairs.

 

This makes little sense.

 

Why should Apple buy a loser and take on Nokia's debt? Apart from the patent portfolio, Nokia brings zero value to Apple's table.

 

Nokia is perfectly capable of running itself into the ground by itself. There's no reason for Apple to buy Nokia and shut it down. Nokia can do this on its own.

 

If anything Apple should wait for Nokia to file for bankruptcy, then buy just the patents. The rest of the company is worthless to Apple. More likely, Apple would be part of a consortium that buys the patent portfolio and shares the rights.

post #30 of 129

This can happen to anyone, even to Apple. And I'm sure Apple won't dominate forever. It is only matter of time.


Edited by xmiku - 6/16/12 at 10:35am
post #31 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by xmiku View Post

This can happen to anyone, even to Apple. And I'm sure Apple won't dominate forever. It is only matter of time.

Yeah, that's really gonna happen.
post #32 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831 View Post

 

This makes little sense.

 

Why should Apple buy a loser and take on Nokia's debt? Apart from the patent portfolio, Nokia brings zero value to Apple's table.

 

Nokia is perfectly capable of running itself into the ground by itself. There's no reason for Apple to buy Nokia and shut it down. Nokia can do this on its own.

 

If anything Apple should wait for Nokia to file for bankruptcy, then buy just the patents. The rest of the company is worthless to Apple. More likely, Apple would be part of a consortium that buys the patent portfolio and shares the rights.

 

You are absolutely correct. It would make no sense at all. But it would be nice to see Apple and Microsoft in a bidding war with Apple backing out, having bid the price up.

post #33 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyL View Post


My story, too. I was a Sony Ericsson fanboy with a k800i looking forward to upgrading to the k850i, but when I saw a k850i in a store I was shocked at how crappy it was, and got an iPhone.

I liked my Motorola Brick in the mid 1980s.
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From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
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post #34 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


Yeah, that's really gonna happen.

 

It did happen once to Apple. I believe the current iteration of Apple has learned a lot from the past about how to avoid going completely into the gutters again.

 

Companies are great when they're disrupting the status quo. Apple is the status quo at the moment, and hopefully they recognize the need to continue to disrupt themselves. The day that we see a product launch that tries to avoid cannibalizing an existing product line, that's a pretty good indicator of the start of the decline. 

post #35 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

What has Apple wrought!

 

Or, perhaps, I should say, what have we wrought.........

 

Competition has weeded out another one. Good for Apple.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #36 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by softeky View Post

Apple should buy Nokia. That would give Micro$oft pause for thought. Then if all those analysts are correct Apple can manufacture both iOS devices and the "larger selling" Windoze phone and corner the device market again in a year or so. Apple could then offer Nokia phones with a choice of iOS or Windoze.
I bet Nokia's patent portfolio would be an interesting aquisition (or is it already gutted).
Besides, it's only fair. Apple can help Micro$oft out in its declining years (you know, returning the favor) and it might be entertaining and cause Balmer to throw a few more chairs.

 

As we've seen, competition for useful patents will only increase as the various parties act in desperation to avoid lawsuits that could end them.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #37 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleZilla View Post

I used to have a Nokia phone. That ended in 2005. Then I had a Sony-Ericsson phone.

In 2007 I got an iPhone.

End of story.

Sounds just like me! ;-)
post #38 of 129

For a moment there I though I clicked on Nokia Insider by accident.

post #39 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831 View Post

If anything Apple should wait for Nokia to file for bankruptcy, then buy just the patents. The rest of the company is worthless to Apple. More likely, Apple would be part of a consortium that buys the patent portfolio and shares the rights.

Patents will be sold off way before Nokia gets anywhere near bankruptcy. 

 

"Finnish mobile maker, Nokia (NYSE:NOK) is all set to divest division of its frightening portfolio of patents to generate much-wanted cash, Timo Ihamuotila, Chief Financial Officer announced on Thursday

We would sell patents at the optimal price, Mr. Ihamuotila reported in a conference call after the firm’s second-quarter profit cautioning and restructuring declaration.

Mr. Ihamuotila further stated that Nokia, with its huge patent portfolio, is capable of selling patents while keeping up a heavy intellectual property rights portfolio.

Nokia’s patent portfolio comprises of 30,000 patents and almost 10,000 patented innovations. Its research and development department forms an average of 1,000 patentable innovations yearly.

In its first-quarter report, Nokia flagged that revenue from its intellectual property rights portfolio totals around EUR500 million a year at the current run-rate."

Nokia of course wants analysts to believe they'll be refocusing their innovation to achieve new success in mobile. They've said they'll be concentrating on imaging and location...  :-/

"The Symbian-based PureView 808, with its 41-megapixel sensor, has changed the game in photography and will appear in the rest of Nokia's smartphone line-up in the future, according to Elop.

Nokia also plans to acquire imaging specialists as well as all technologies and intellectual property from Swedish company Scalado to boost its capabilities."

 

"When it comes to navigation, Nokia Public Transport -- where users can do navigation that incorporates public transportation systems -- and the augmented reality features of Nokia City Lens show the company's lead, Elop said.

One of the challenges Nokia faces in the navigation sector is scale, which you need to be able to do to crowd-source data such as the location of traffic jams, according to Wood.

"Nokia does still have scale, but it is rapidly being caught up by Apple and Android," said Wood."

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9228120/Mistakes_heavy_competition_forces_Nokia_to_reboot?taxonomyId=15&pageNumber=1


Edited by Gatorguy - 6/16/12 at 5:11pm
melior diabolus quem scies
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post #40 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

"Finnish mobile maker, Nokia ....

 

Mr. Ihamuotila further stated that Nokia, with its huge patent portfolio, is capable of selling patents while keeping up a heavy intellectual property rights portfolio.

 

Selling the cake AND eating it. Sounds like smoke and mirrors. 

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