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Nokia credit now labeled junk by all three major credit-rating agencies - Page 4

post #121 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scrip View Post

Wait a minute... earlier you said I implied that. Remember?

yes, I remember what I wrote, you seem to have forgotten what you wrote, here, I will remind you...
Quote:
True.... but Apple also has a habit of re-inventing themselves and entering new markets. I just don't think companies like Nokia are able to do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scrip View Post

Anyway... you've told me TWICE to go back and look at Nokia's history... which I have. But you never say anything beyond that.
What, specifically, am I looking for in Nokia's history?

You don't know what you are looking for? Ok, this is what you said
Quote:
True.... but Apple also has a habit of re-inventing themselves and entering new markets. I just don't think companies like Nokia are able to do that.

Now, since you have looked at Nokia's history twice, are you really telling me you don't know what you are looking for based on your own statement?
Edited by jfanning - 6/18/12 at 11:36pm
post #122 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

You don't know what you are looking for? Ok, this is what you said

Let ME break down what I said:

- "Apple also has a habit of re-inventing themselves and entering new markets."

This is true. Apple has re-invented themselves AND entered new markets.

- "I just don't think companies like Nokia are able to do that."

The "I don't think" part is an indicator of an OPINION. Had I worded it differently... you could certainly call me on that. But, as written, I don't think they have it in 'em. Feel free to disagree.

You seem convinced that Nokia will break into new markets. I must ask you... which ones?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Now, since you have looked at Nokia's history twice, are you really telling me you don't know what you are looking for based on your own statement?

After exploring Nokia's long history... I've learned that Nokia was involved in a lot of stuff that they are no longer a part of today. They've been involved in MANY industries... ultimately ending up in the electronics and communications market.

And now they are struggling in that market... through no fault of their own. It's simply a difficult market to be in.

So I ask again... what new markets can Nokia enter? Will they go back to their roots and start making paper and rubber again?

Or will they start making PCs again? They already tried to get a piece of the netbook market with the Nokia Booklet. But the PC market is highly competitive as it is.

Tablets? That'll be difficult too... especially with Nokia's partner Microsoft and their announcements today.

Televisions? Gaming? They've done both already. (I'm trying to pick markets that are based on electronics... but I'm coming up short)

Even if Nokia simply wanted to get back their title of the world's largest vendor of mobile phones.... that is becoming increasingly difficult with all the other phones on the market.

Would it be possible for Nokia to re-invent themselves and enter new markets? Sure... it's possible... even if I'm doubtful. I'm certainly entitled to my opinion.

Anyway... let's hope Nokia fixes their credit rating... and gets back to making amazing new stuff.

I'll be watching... now more than ever!
post #123 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scrip View Post

You seem convinced that Nokia will break into new markets. I must ask you... which ones?

I don't know where you got that thought from, I never said it. All I did was show you that Nokia has reinvented themselves in the past, I have said nothing more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scrip View Post

So I ask again... what new markets can Nokia enter? Will they go back to their roots and start making paper and rubber again?

I don't know, and I don't care. All I was doing was correcting your mistake.
post #124 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

I don't know where you got that thought from, I never said it. All I did was show you that Nokia has reinvented themselves in the past, I have said nothing more.
I don't know, and I don't care. All I was doing was correcting your mistake.

In reading through Nokia's history... I wouldn't exactly say they have reinvented themselves. They are an industrial conglomerate... and buying up companies and expanding into new markets is kinda what happens naturally.

Nokia Ab (the paper company) almost went bankrupt after the first World War in 1919... so I guess there's that.

Finnish Rubber Works acquired Nokia... and also went on to acquire Finnish Cable Works. All three companies were jointly owned.

The Nokia we know today is a conglomerate formed in 1967 from three separate companies: Nokia Ab, Finnish Rubber Works and Finnish Cable Works.

That doesn't sound like a harrowing tale of reinvention... does it? It sounds like business as usual for a conglomerate.

But yes... Nokia the paper company eventually became Nokia the telecommunications company... over a span of 150 years... and after a couple mergers and acquisitions. If that's what you meant by Nokia's reinvention... I apologize.

However... that's still in stark contrast to Apple's reinvention... which happened over 10 years... and was largely done in-house by simply coming up with new products.

Near bankruptcy to becoming one of the largest companies in the world... not many companies have ever had that kind of turnaround in such a short time.

And that was my original point... correctly worded.

Can Nokia do it? I hope so. I've enjoyed researching Nokia over the past 24 hours. I wish my research in college was this much fun!
post #125 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scrip View Post


But yes... Nokia the paper company eventually became Nokia the telecommunications company... over a span of 150 years... and after a couple mergers and acquisitions. If that's what you meant by Nokia's reinvention... I apologize.
However... that's still in stark contrast to Apple's reinvention... which happened over 10 years... and was largely done in-house by simply coming up with new products.

Well to use your words "Apple also has a habit of re-inventing themselves and entering new markets."

Apple is a CE company, they have been a CE company since they started, what reinvention?
post #126 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Well to use your words "Apple also has a habit of re-inventing themselves and entering new markets."
Apple is a CE company, they have been a CE company since they started, what reinvention?

Apple, the computer company, almost went bankrupt... then they came back and started making MP3 players, phones and tablets. It was one of the greatest comebacks of all time. Read more...

If that's not reinvention... I don't know what is. And that was the basis of my very first comment in this thread.

But I think we've defined the word "reinvention" enough. I'm just gonna say a couple more things.

Bottom line... Apple has only been making cell phones for 5 years... and Android has only been around for 4 years... but they are basically putting the old boys out of business.

Nokia, the pioneer of cellular technology, is having a bit trouble these days.

If 150 years of history couldn't prepare Nokia for this new smartphone market... then they have to face the consequences.

Can Nokia recover? It's possible... and I hope they do.

But I still have my doubts <--- And I'm entitled to that opinion.

One reason... Microsoft. Nokia has gone all-in with Windows Phone. I'm not sure that was a great idea. But that's just my opinion.
post #127 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scrip View Post

Apple, the computer company, almost went bankrupt... then they came back and started making MP3 players, phones and tablets. It was one of the greatest comebacks of all time. Read more...
If that's not reinvention... I don't know what is. And that was the basis of my very first comment in this thread.


You seem to be away on a tangent, you said Apple reinvented themselves and entered new markets, and others weren't capable of it. Computers are a comsumer electronic device, iPods etc are all CE devices, they have always been a CE company, they are in the same market they have always been in.
post #128 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

you said Apple reinvented themselves and entered new markets, and others weren't capable of it.

Not quite... the statement began with "I just don't think..."

That's a far cry from "no company will ever be able to..."

Big difference, huh...

I'm entitled to my opinions, though... and you're still the only person who had a problem with it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Computers are a comsumer electronic device, iPods etc are all CE devices, they have always been a CE company, they are in the same market they have always been in.

I guess if you look at the the macro view of Apple... you could say they were a consumer electronics company all along. But I wasn't looking at them so broadly.

For all practical purposes... Nokia has been a communications company for the last 45 years.

It's absolutely true that they were involved in many other industries prior to that. But from the 1990s until today... Nokia is strictly a communications company.

So if you think about it... Nokia is in fewer markets than ever before... since they no longer make paper and rubber.
post #129 of 129

"Despite being a major player in Microsoft's new Windows Phone platform initiative, which some analysts believe will hold more market share than Apple's iPhone by 2016".  Who are these analysts?  Are they nuts?  How can MS get a larger phone OS market share than Apple within the next 4 years if nobody, except Nokia, will use Windows?

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