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Nokia woes expected to worsen as Lumia won't run Windows Phone 8

post #1 of 130
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Nokia's current flagship phone, the Lumia 900, won't be upgradeable to Microsoft's new Windows Phone 8 platform, leading some to expect Nokia's troubles will grow even more.

Earlier this week, Microsoft formally announced Windows Phone 8, which will launch on new handsets this fall. The operating system upgrade won't be available on existing Windows Phone 7-based devices, which means Nokia's Lumia 900 will be incompatible with the new platform.

Instead, Microsoft plans to offer an update in the form of Windows Phone 7.8 that will add some of the Windows Phone 8 features to the legacy platform. With Windows Phone 7.8, devices like the Lumia 900 will an updated Start screen with customizable tile sizes.

But even though the Lumia 900 will be upgraded to look like a Windows Phone 8 device, the fact that it will not receive all of the new features and functionality is seen as a serious blow to Nokia, which has bet heavily on the Windows Phone platform in its transition away from its own Symbian.

That means Nokia's troubles "could get worse before they get better," a report published Thursday in The Wall Street Journal said. It characterized the Nokia 900's lack of compatibility with Windows Phone 8 as a "major blow" to Nokia.

Malik Saadi, an industry analyst at Information Telecoms & Media, told author Sven Grundberg that many customers will now wait until Windows Phone 8 devices become available in the fall, instead of opting to buy a Nokia Lumia 900 in the meantime.

Lumia 900


In contrast, Apple's iPhone 3GS, first released in 2009, will be able to run iOS 6 when Apple releases its own operating system update this fall. While iPhone 3GS owners will get iOS 6, they will lose out on some new features such as built-in turn-by-turn directions, Flyover maps, Shared Photo Streams, Mail VIP lists and flagged smart boxes, and the Safari Offline Reading List.

Microsoft's announcement this week is the latest in a string of bad news for Nokia. A week ago, the Finnish handset maker announced plans to ax 10,000 jobs by the end of 2013 in an effort to cut costs and turn the company around.

Nokia was once the dominant force in smartphones, but failed to respond as the iPhone and devices running Google Android took over the market. The Lumia 900 is a major attempt by Nokia to counter that trend and switch to Windows Phone, but the company warned last week that sales in its "Smart Devices" business segment have been worse than expected, and that issue is expected to continue going into the next quarter.
post #2 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Nokia's current flagship phone, the Lumia 900, won't be upgradeable to Microsoft's new Windows Phone 8 platform, leading some to expect Nokia's troubles ......
 

....or Microsoft's...

post #3 of 130

Isn't the key issue the fact that it (and all WP7.x devices) is orphaned from the WP8 native code base. Anyone coding natively for WP8 won't be able to run their apps on WP7.X phones like the L900.

post #4 of 130

MS is pulling the rug out from under Windows Phone from now until December. The platform is already floundering. Now there will be even *less* reason for consumers to spend money on it. And what's the point, anyway? If consumers want a cheap, disposable phone that is iPhone-like without it being an iPhone, there's Android. If consumers want the "cool", Premium iPhone experience then they can get an iPhone. 

 

What's the reason to get a Windows Phone? What is the point of this platform? It brings nothing really game-changing or killer to the table. 

post #5 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnbob View Post

Isn't the key issue the fact that it (and all WP7.x devices) is orphaned from the WP8 native code base. Anyone coding natively for WP8 won't be able to run their apps on WP7.X phones like the L900.

At least WP7 apps, as I was informed the other day, will run on WP8 and current Win Phones will get an update to 7.8 as a conciliation prize. I wasn't expecting either of those things from MS.

Plus, are they really worse off than they were a year ago? Perhaps it's a good thing they can now use WinNT kernel for all their OSes. Better late than never, right?

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post #6 of 130

Here's Microsoft method of doing business.  First they try to screw Apple by practically copying the Mac GUI, but changed it enough to not be caught stealing it. THEN, they write contracts with their OEM partners to basically prevent them from offering the Mac Operating System on PCs.  THEN they now are talking about offering these so-called tablets to prevent their OEM partners from competing in what is unfair business practices because their OEM partners have to PAY Microsoft for the use of their OSs, but Microsoft does't pay a dime for it, plus Microsoft gets a competitive jump on the competition by showing their Windows 8 tablets way ahead of the Windows 8 release date.  Now, all of the WIndows 7 phone users can't upgrade to Windows 8 and they just started selling these WIndows 7 phone not too long ago.

 

What next?  So, Microsoft not only tries to screw over their competitors, but their business partners (of which Apple was a business partner) and now they are screwing their OEM partners, customers and everyone that they can think of.


I am surprised Microsoft is still one company and I am surprised if they don't have a flood of lawsuits hitting them.

 

I'm glad I am Apple user.  Apple wouldn't release a piece of hardware and then release a new operating system within a year that the hardware won't support.  They wait a fair amount of time before they drop support on a hardware product with regards to OS updates.  You may not get all of the functionality, but at least you can install it.  I think Apple waits somewhere around 2 to 3 years before they drop OS support in terms of updating hardware products.  Correct me if I am wrong.  I know the Smartphone industry in general has been faster moving than the PC industry due to the very nature of the product, but within a year of releasing a product?

post #7 of 130

Where are all the 'Nokia will never fail' people on this forum now? :) 

post #8 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

Here's Microsoft method of doing business.  First they try to screw Apple by practically copying the Mac GUI, but changed it enough to not be caught stealing it. THEN, they write contracts with their OEM partners to basically prevent them from offering the Mac Operating System on PCs.  THEN they now are talking about offering these so-called tablets to prevent their OEM partners from competing in what is unfair business practices because their OEM partners have to PAY Microsoft for the use of their OSs, but Microsoft does't pay a dime for it, plus Microsoft gets a competitive jump on the competition by showing their Windows 8 tablets way ahead of the Windows 8 release date.  Now, all of the WIndows 7 phone users can't upgrade to Windows 8 and they just started selling these WIndows 7 phone not too long ago.

 

What next?  So, Microsoft not only tries to screw over their competitors, but their business partners (of which Apple was a business partner) and now they are screwing their OEM partners, customers and everyone that they can think of.


I am surprised Microsoft is still one company and I am surprised if they don't have a flood of lawsuits hitting them.

 

I'm glad I am Apple user.  Apple wouldn't release a piece of hardware and then release a new operating system within a year that the hardware won't support.  They wait a fair amount of time before they drop support on a hardware product with regards to OS updates.  You may not get all of the functionality, but at least you can install it.  I think Apple waits somewhere around 2 to 3 years before they drop OS support in terms of updating hardware products.  Correct me if I am wrong.  I know the Smartphone industry in general has been faster moving than the PC industry due to the very nature of the product, but within a year of releasing a product?

I agree with most of what you say. 

 

Its ironic that after all those "smartphone beta test" ads.....turns out lumia buyers, the same ones swayed by those ads, WERE in fact the beta testers. 

 

Bad move on MS, which could have been easily avoided by playing the Apple game of pushing out a chopped up upgrade missing key features and STILL call it WP8, much in the same way a 3GS can get "iOS6"

post #9 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

What's the reason to get a Windows Phone?  

Because clueless consumers listened to the salesperson in the phone store who told them that they can buy this fantastic phone that is on sale and it runs Windows!

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post #10 of 130
Instead of calling the update for the old phone 7.8, why not call it 8 as well, albeit without all the features, not too unlike what will happen with IOS 6 and the 3GS.

Framing; so the question is why is M$ screwing their partners?

And isn't the same thing true on the Android platform? Manufaturer fragmentation and proprietary versions of the Android OS leave most folks stuck without OS upgrade options?
post #11 of 130
Nokia... sign a deal with the Devil... Well you know the rest.
/
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post #12 of 130

Microsoft does not need to sell any phones! They have the Surface now. Time to move on to the next product that they will screw up and kill before it has a chance. Steve Ballmer definitely looks the part.

post #13 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepy3 View Post

Its ironic that after all those "smartphone beta test" ads.....turns out lumia buyers, the same ones swayed by those ads, WERE in fact the beta testers.


I had completely forgot about that.

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post #14 of 130

So I've been watching these Microshaft clowns for decades... This move, making CURRENTLY SHIPPING PARTNER HARDWARE OBSOLETE is NOT a new move for Bomber's Flying Monkey squad... It should, if there is ANY doubt left, remove any pretense that Microshaft has any respect for their partners, cares if they remain financially viable or not (even after dumping money my the ship load), OR are bothered by the fact that with most, if not all announcements, they further alienate customers as well??!!??!?!??

 

IF you currently have a Microshaft product, break it today and replace it with ANYTHING, or if you're planning on buying one, go have a long three-day weekend get-away for some friendly electro-shock therapy, so you'll change your mind....

post #15 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rot'nApple View Post

Nokia... sign a deal with the Devil... Well you know the rest.
/
/
/

I am always curious as to why people feel the need to express their moral and political beliefs on a technology website. You know there are many websites, where people care to hear them. Just saying.

post #16 of 130

Microsoft has gotten pretty brilliant of late.

 

Problem: Microsoft needs to make their own hardware like Apple does. Apple’s model works. But how to jump suddenly into the phone hardware business? Apple makes it look easy, but it’s not. Hmmm....

 

Step 1: sell Nokia a bill of goods with Windows Phone 7, incomplete as it is, as the future for greater things. Let them put their success on the line with their customers.

 

Step 2: spring the trap! No Windows 8 for you! Watch Nokia’s stock tank.

 

Step 3: now you’ve made Nokia super cheap... great time to buy them! You are now in the phone hardware business. And you can “fix” the problems that Nokia users complain about rather than taking all the blame directly. Sell those people a bunch of Windows 8 phones ("Simon says" they WILL upgrade to Windows 9/whatever). You have sidestepped the very Windows 7 deficiencies you created AND created a nice fire sale for yourself to buy a major company!

 

Step 4: Hmmmm... Ford satisfaction ratings are tanking due to problems with our Windows software... go ahead, buy them too. And don’t forget we need milk :)

post #17 of 130
-- eradicated --
Edited by iPilya - 6/21/12 at 4:42pm
post #18 of 130
Nokia dropped their pants and bent over for Ballmer's Microsoft, this is the result. No surprises here.

This should remove all doubt that Windows Phone is a dead-end turd - and who with any sense would want to be a Microsoft "partner" now after the events of this week?
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post #19 of 130
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Originally Posted by kent909 View Post

I am always curious as to why people feel the need to express their moral and political beliefs on a technology website. You know there are many websites, where people care to hear them. Just saying.

It's just a saying. Using it doesn't imply religious or political beliefs.
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post #20 of 130

This is the problem with the Microsoft/Android relationship with the hardware makers.  Folks like Nokia only make hardware.  So from Nokia's perspective, there is no real incentive for them to make their phones upgradeable as it does not offer any real ability to generate revenue from that.  They are in the business to sell the physical phone.  Last thing Nokia, or any other maker wants is users keeping their "old" 6-month phone around.

post #21 of 130

Quote:
Originally Posted by danbrook View Post

Instead of calling the update for the old phone 7.8, why not call it 8 as well, albeit without all the features, not too unlike what will happen with IOS 6 and the 3GS.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepy3 View Post

Bad move on MS, which could have been easily avoided by playing the Apple game of pushing out a chopped up upgrade missing key features and STILL call it WP8, much in the same way a 3GS can get "iOS6"

 

 

Because it's not Windows Phone 8, that would be misleading to consumers and developers.

 

The 3GS is getting API/Kernel/OS parity with all other iOS devices, just not feature parity, which is normal for older hardware.


Edited by mjtomlin - 6/21/12 at 9:29am
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #22 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by danbrook View Post

Instead of calling the update for the old phone 7.8, why not call it 8 as well, albeit without all the features, not too unlike what will happen with IOS 6 and the 3GS.

Well, WP7.x is using an old Windows CE kernel unlike the upcoming Windows Phone 8 which is using the latest version of WinNT kernel. The same technology powering desktop versions of Windows. iOS on the other hand has always used the same core technology based on OS X. In a way MS is now doing the same thing Apple did when they created iOS in the first place. Using their desktop OS as basis and deriving mobile versions from there. Anyways I do understand your point there! :) - I thing MS decided to make a clear distinction between those OS versions as the technological jump is quite big.

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post #23 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightlie View Post

Nokia dropped their pants and bent over for Ballmer's Microsoft, this is the result. No surprises here.
This should remove all doubt that Windows Phone is a dead-end turd - and who with any sense would want to be a Microsoft "partner" now after the events of this week?

 

Microsoft doesn’t want hardware partners anymore. They want to be Apple. (Or Xbox for that matter.) Whether they buy Nokia or not, they want to make their OWN phones. Extrapolating from their new self-made tablet and the fact that Apple’s business model is working!

 

Not they WANT to anger their old partners, but they are willing to.

post #24 of 130

MS has done the right thing for themselves, and their software development costs, by moving to a unified OS. The only thing Nokia can do now is work nights to bring forward the release of their new model.

post #25 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by kent909 View Post

I am always curious as to why people feel the need to express their moral and political beliefs on a technology website. You know there are many websites, where people care to hear them. Just saying.

Wow... you actually saw the "deal with the devil" comment as an expression of moral beliefs? You do understand it's just a saying, I don't think he was trying to push any of his beliefs on you... However so that your comment isn't just wasted...

post #26 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post

Where are all the 'Nokia will never fail' people on this forum now? :) 

They're probably astroturfing at a different site. Be afraid. Be very afraid!! They'll be back!! lol

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post #27 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

MS has done the right thing for themselves, and their software development costs, by moving to a unified OS. The only thing Nokia can do now is work nights to bring forward the release of their new model.

 

 

Not quite : the missing step would have been to present Surface as a phone (you know, the benefit of the all-in-one approach ...)

post #28 of 130

When you buy an Apple device, you know that you will be set for at least some years ahead, receiving new OS updates in a timely fashion and keeping your devices up to date.

 

With these other companies, and especially Android phones, the manufacturers just don't give a shit. They make a million models a year, and after some sorry suckers buy them, these people are basically screwed. This is why the vast majority of Android users are still stuck on some old, ancient, shitty version of Android. Only a very tiny percentage of users actually use the newest, latest, OS. They keep flinging shit to a wall, to see what sticks. 

post #29 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

MS is pulling the rug out from under Windows Phone from now until December. The platform is already floundering. Now there will be even *less* reason for consumers to spend money on it. And what's the point, anyway? If consumers want a cheap, disposable phone that is iPhone-like without it being an iPhone, there's Android. If consumers want the "cool", Premium iPhone experience then they can get an iPhone. 

What's the reason to get a Windows Phone? What is the point of this platform? It brings nothing really game-changing or killer to the table. 

I've stated before that Microsoft's play book is to vanquish its competitors and win the game, not trying to make a dent in the universe or delighting its customers, and it shows. Customer happiness is incidental, not essential to them.

What really mystifies me are people who fawn all over Windows and Windows Phone. I have absolutely no idea why these people do that, but then again, I don't know why some women stay in abusive relationships. I assume in both cases, the victims don't know any better.

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post #30 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post


<...>
What really mystifies me are people who fawn all over Windows and Windows Phone. I have absolutely no idea why these people do that, but then again, I don't know why some women stay in abusive relationships. I assume in both cases, the victims don't know any better.

 

 

In this case, let's say that the seductive power appears to be limited ....

post #31 of 130

How ironic. Microsoft has been so hampered in the past by insisting on supporting legacy machines whenever they releasing new OSes. Now they are cutting off Nokia. Trying too hard to be Apple-like?
 

post #32 of 130
This is what happens when you depend on other companies to complete your technology and why Apple is rocketing past everyone else.
post #33 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by kent909 View Post

I am always curious as to why people feel the need to express their moral and political beliefs on a technology website. You know there are many websites, where people care to hear them. Just saying.

You need a little culture shock, time to get out of you're basement and into the light.

I'd also reccomend swinging by the local library to pick up a book of idioms for quick study.
post #34 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by danbrook View Post

Instead of calling the update for the old phone 7.8, why not call it 8 as well, albeit without all the features, not too unlike what will happen with IOS 6 and the 3GS.
Framing; so the question is why is M$ screwing their partners?
And isn't the same thing true on the Android platform? Manufaturer fragmentation and proprietary versions of the Android OS leave most folks stuck without OS upgrade options?

Because, unlike with iOS, it wouldn't be true. iOS running on the old 3GS will be lacking features, but it's still the same OS, and much of iOS 6 will function. But wp8 is completely different under the hood. It's an entirely different OS. For the first time, a Microsoft phone will really be a Windows phone, if you define something running on ARM that doesn't run classic Windows programs, Windows anyway.
post #35 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by kent909 View Post

I am always curious as to why people feel the need to express their moral and political beliefs on a technology website. You know there are many websites, where people care to hear them. Just saying.

It's an expression. You've heard of expressions, right?
post #36 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post

Where are all the 'Nokia will never fail' people on this forum now? :) 

 

Probably having a drink with the idiotic, alienated and Ballmer-loving CEO called Stephen "What, Me Worry?" Elop.

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post #37 of 130

I'll start off saying I understand WHY they had to orphan current phones. They had to, to move forward. 

That said, I haven't understood MS and this phone WP7 thing from the beginning. Soon as they announced WP7 and had the first one on the shelf, they immediately announced WP7.5 Mango.

Soon as Mango hit the table, they start talking about WP8 with a new kernel.  

I don't understand wanting to cannibalize your own POTENTIAL sales.  Yes, I understand that as soon as you buy anything, a new one will replace it within a year. 

MS is announcing this WP8  4+ months before a single device will hit the market. So for the next 4+ months, who in their right mind would buy ANY Windows Phone?

Only the truly uninformed will purchase a current WP7, and shame on any sales person who doesn't inform the customer about what they are buying. 

 

I watched the entire snooze-fest .. er...  Windows developers conf. last night, just as I watch All of Apples keynotes. It was like an amateur hour at the open mic comedy club. 

After watching an Apple Keynote, it just seemed so.... empty. Their demo's were buggy, not ready for a public.  

In one demo, he asked the tablet to "Play Game of Thrones" it came back with something about Missouri, lol.

Even when they announced something semi cool, like 6 people clapped, and a drunk guy in the back gave it a Wooooooo!

 

The phone they were using was thick as their tablet, not running normal hardware. It was like cheating, but the cheating didn't help because it still didn't work right. 

Poor Nokia. They used to be a phone everyone was Happy to own. Their own arrogance, much like RIM, made them dismiss the iPhone as some 2 minute Fad despite the Lines of people in front of an Apple store on launch day.

 

Something I didn't understand in the Conf. was the Sharing part. If I add a contact to my phone, I have to "Tap & Send" it to another device or use the NFC?  o_O?  where the he'll is Cloud syncing? I don't want to MANUALLY sync my contacts buy having to "Tap & Send" each one. How annoying would that be? 

 

Some have asked, why didn't they just call it OS 8 and say it was missing features like apple does. They can't do that because even tho iPhone 3GS will not get some features, the heart of the OS will still run on the phone. With WP7, once they get the updated UI, its end of life. It will never receive an update again.  It was a good move, despite everything it does to WP7 sales. It would be completely misleading to do it any other way. 

If Apple were to finally combine Mac OS-X and iOS into a single AppleOS that would only run on current macs and the New iPhone 7, they wouldn't call it iOS 8 minus features. 

Like it, love it or Hate it, that is one thing I do love about Apple. They aren't afraid to say, it's time to move on, upgrade or do without.  Embrace change or stay in the past, either way, we are moving on. What you do from there, your choice. 

post #38 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

Here's Microsoft method of doing business.  First they try to screw Apple by practically copying the Mac GUI, but changed it enough to not be caught stealing it. THEN, they write contracts with their OEM partners to basically prevent them from offering the Mac Operating System on PCs.  THEN they now are talking about offering these so-called tablets to prevent their OEM partners from competing in what is unfair business practices because their OEM partners have to PAY Microsoft for the use of their OSs, but Microsoft does't pay a dime for it, plus Microsoft gets a competitive jump on the competition by showing their Windows 8 tablets way ahead of the Windows 8 release date.  Now, all of the WIndows 7 phone users can't upgrade to Windows 8 and they just started selling these WIndows 7 phone not too long ago.

 

What next?  So, Microsoft not only tries to screw over their competitors, but their business partners (of which Apple was a business partner) and now they are screwing their OEM partners, customers and everyone that they can think of.


I am surprised Microsoft is still one company and I am surprised if they don't have a flood of lawsuits hitting them.

 

I'm glad I am Apple user.  Apple wouldn't release a piece of hardware and then release a new operating system within a year that the hardware won't support.  They wait a fair amount of time before they drop support on a hardware product with regards to OS updates.  You may not get all of the functionality, but at least you can install it.  I think Apple waits somewhere around 2 to 3 years before they drop OS support in terms of updating hardware products.  Correct me if I am wrong.  I know the Smartphone industry in general has been faster moving than the PC industry due to the very nature of the product, but within a year of releasing a product?

 

You're glad you"re an apple user. "Apple wouldn't release a piece of hardware and then release a new operating system within a year that the hardware won't support."

 

 

ok but :

 

The iPad 1 is just 2 years old and there's no update for it.

post #39 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLuvin View Post

I'll start off saying I understand WHY they had to orphan current phones. They had to, to move forward. 
That said, I haven't understood MS and this phone WP7 thing from the beginning. Soon as they announced WP7 and had the first one on the shelf, they immediately announced WP7.5 Mango.
Soon as Mango hit the table, they start talking about WP8 with a new kernel.  

...


Some have asked, why didn't they just call it OS 8 and say it was missing features like apple does. They can't do that because even tho iPhone 3GS will not get some features, the heart of the OS will still run on the phone. With WP7, once they get the updated UI, its end of life. It will never receive an update again.  It was a good move, despite everything it does to WP7 sales. It would be completely misleading to do it any other way. 
If Apple were to finally combine Mac OS-X and iOS into a single AppleOS that would only run on current macs and the New iPhone 7, they wouldn't call it iOS 8 minus features. 
Like it, love it or Hate it, that is one thing I do love about Apple. They aren't afraid to say, it's time to move on, upgrade or do without.  Embrace change or stay in the past, either way, we are moving on. What you do from there, your choice. 

The Lumia 900 was introduced this year, Jan 9, to be exact. Other than test units, there are probably no Lumia 900s in the wild that are over six months old. I really doubt that MS didn't know that this transition was going to happen a year ago. It's very hard to arrive at a charitable interpretation of these events on the given timeline. This thing is supposed to be a flagship model for MS, and they've already decided to let it sink.
post #40 of 130

A- Microsoft hasn't given consumers a compelling reason to choose their platform over iOS and Android.

B- Microsoft could easily choose to make their own phones just as they are now making their own tablets.

Any company that hitches its wagon to Microsoft's mobile platform is going to suffer the consequences.

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