Nokia woes expected to worsen as Lumia won't run Windows Phone 8 - Page 2

Well, watching Microsoft freeze further Win 7 phone sales (cause they're still treating this market like the old desktop OS market) until WP 8 phone comes out at the end of the year, I realized that Microsoft provided crucial corporate training to the CEO of Nokia (ex Microsoft software exec).

Now it makes sense why Nokia's CEO (former MS software exec) could stand up and very publicly say that they were abandoning their current smartphone OS (which had an active developer ecosystem not huge but it was there which came with future OS updates for the phones on that OS), abandon the internal new generation OS they had almost done, for a new OS (WP7) from MS with Nokia phone based on it wouldn't be available for more than a year hurting Nokia's smartphone sales in the meantime (which weren't great but got much worse after that) - and thinking that was a perfectly good thing to do as CEO.

And it turns out Nokia's CEO bet the company on a dead end OS.  Welcome Nokia to depending on another company for your OS development, one that may not have your best interests in mind.

As to the questions of why can't MS just offer the WP 8 update to existing WP phones, its because the existing WP 7.x phones are single core relatively low powered devices and wouldn't perform acceptably on the NT kernal based WP 8 if MS ported it to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AppleInsider 


Microsoft's announcement this week is the latest in a string of bad news for Nokia.

But this isn't news.  It was known at the time Nokia signed up with M$.  It was baked into the deal.  Nokia knew about this "news" a year ago.

Qyyyyuote:

Originally Posted by nealg 

Nokia had to know what was coming because they had to be in the process of developing for WP8 when they came out with the Lumia series. So essentially, Nokia was forced my MSFT to develop a new line of phones that would be obsolete in less than a year and they knew it. That is the reason why Nokia gave such poor guidance going forward. They knew this was coming. The more I read about this, the more that I am leaning towards thinking that maybe this was all intentional with Elop at the head of Nokia and the plan was to get Nokia cheap enough for MSFT to buy Nokia.

 

<...>

Less machiavelic explanations :

1) Microsoft right hand ignores Microsoft left hand

2) every time the expression "strategic partnership" is employed in business, a strong red warning should appear in the CEO dashboard

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apple ][ 

When you buy an Apple device, you know that you will be set for at least some years ahead, receiving new OS updates in a timely fashion and keeping your devices up to date.

 

 

 

Given the differences in market share, this does not seem to be something that is a big deal to many buyers.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerrySwitched26 

 

Given the differences in market share, this does not seem to be something that is a big deal to many buyers.

But it is indicative of how you treat the end user. Nokia forgot this many years ago and MS only realised some months after launching Vista.

People (especially in these times) will not tolerate being treated like idiots, and how you treat the end user will be the next battle ground. Apple have a proven record of treating the user extremely well (in comparison to the rest of the industry) with replacement phones/computers by just walking into an Apple, extending warranties outside their respective periods, providing timely updates, and keeping old devices going for a decent length of time.

Nokia have long since started paying the price of their attitude when the iPhone was released, and they put up the ludicrous N95 against it. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the release of the iPhone should have set alarm bells ringing at Nokia, RIM and MS (at the very least). Instead of looking at the original product and saying "erm, it's rather good", they continued to churn out crap and relied on the marketing department to cover the crapness of the product. In real life, early iPhone adopters were showing off their phones and the general public was saying "that's rather nice" and buying.

If you have a bad phone today, the user will be spending the next 2 years of the contract cussing your company out.

Apologies for any spelling mistakes, got a cat sitting across my hands as I type this. Sigh.

cleverly done MS. You don't have many toes left to shoot off....

Nokia's Elop was a Trojan Horse, sent by MS to destroy Nokia as an independent company and allow MS to buy Nokia's smartphone and patents in a fire sale. I don't know if the Nokia board was in on this, but they are either incompetent or criminal negligent for failing to protect Nokia. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolivier 

 

You're glad you"re an apple user. "Apple wouldn't release a piece of hardware and then release a new operating system within a year that the hardware won't support."

 

 

ok but :

 

The iPad 1 is just 2 years old and there's no update for it.

so? for phones, 2 years is your contract cycle anyway. but the Lumia will be obsolete after just 9 months. its buyers will have to wait at least another year after that before they can get a WP8 model without paying a penalty. and new apps written for WP8 won't run on it at all.

all V.1 models like the iPad 1 (and the first iPhone and the first Android phone and tablet) will be outmoded unusually soon. major changes in subsequent models and software are inevitable. that is a special case. early adopters should expect that. and yet many (not all) of today's third-party iPad apps will work on the iPad 1.

i suppose one could say the Lumia 7.x was a WP V.1 product, totally disregarding prior WM 6.x models from less than 2 years ago as ancient history (they were a rip-off too). but that is not how it was represented or marketed.

treating your trusting customers like suckers is bad business, and their is no good excuse. just lame alibis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nagromme 

Microsoft has gotten pretty brilliant of late.

 

Problem: Microsoft needs to make their own hardware like Apple does. Apple’s model works. But how to jump suddenly into the phone hardware business? Apple makes it look easy, but it’s not. Hmmm....

 

Step 1: sell Nokia a bill of goods with Windows Phone 7, incomplete as it is, as the future for greater things. Let them put their success on the line with their customers.

 

Step 2: spring the trap! No Windows 8 for you! Watch Nokia’s stock tank.

 

Step 3: now you’ve made Nokia super cheap... great time to buy them! You are now in the phone hardware business. And you can “fix” the problems that Nokia users complain about rather than taking all the blame directly. Sell those people a bunch of Windows 8 phones ("Simon says" they WILL upgrade to Windows 9/whatever). You have sidestepped the very Windows 7 deficiencies you created AND created a nice fire sale for yourself to buy a major company!

 

Step 4: Hmmmm... Ford satisfaction ratings are tanking due to problems with our Windows software... go ahead, buy them too. And don’t forget we need milk :)

Exactly. Was just going to post this. 

Also, if Microsoft buys Nokia I would imagine that they would "Somehow" make Win8 work on this phone thus reaping goodwill. People would still blame MS otherwise. 

Maybe Apple should swoop in and buy Nokia, in the fire sale instead thus taking all of Nokia's patents and locking MS out of that outlet for a phone. All the other phone partners abandoned MS and are using Android. MS would be sunk in the phone game and no hardware partner. Hmmm. 

EDIT: Just noticed post above about the current Lumina being a single core vs. multi-core phone. Curious as to the sales figures of the current Lumina anyway. Maybe they are so low that customer ill will wouldn't matter.  

I also have to think that if this was MS intention to kill the stock price of Nokia and swoop in and buy it in a fire-sale that there would be legal repercussions. Shareholders would be pissed and would sue. I would also believe that there has to be some language in the contract between MS and Nokia. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolivier 

 

The iPad 1 is just 2 years old and there's no update for it.

To be fair the iPad 1 has already seen 2 major updates in it's lifetime as it shipped with iPhoneOS 3 and received updates to iOS 4 and then iOS 5. That is more updates than most brand new in the shops today Android phones will ever see, and MS have just confirmed it is definitely more updates than any Win7 phones will ever see..

Deleted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kent909 

I am always curious as to why people feel the need to express their moral and political beliefs on a technology website. You know there are many websites, where people care to hear them. Just saying.

He was using a common allegory from Faust, Poindexter. Your comment is bizarre.

This could very well be a move by Microsoft to get a bargain basement price on Nokia.  (Even cheaper than Nokia's puny $8.87B current market cap.)  

Here's a potential Microsoft acquisition plan:

1. Jerk Nokia around by threatening to not provide WP8 on anything before next year's Lumias.  

2. Wait for the layoffs to happen, wait for the stock to hit rock bottom, wait for Nokia to prepare itself for acquisition.

3. Buy the company for just a few billion (and snipe at Google for over-paying at $12.5 billion for Motorola Mobiity.)

4. Put WP8 on the Lumia 900 after all, to give Nokia one final year of smartphone production.

5. Transition Nokia from making Lumias (and all those dumbphones) to making Surfaces.

Doomed, I tell ya.  DOOOOOOOOOOMED!

Seriously, this could kill sales of the current Nokia phones.  Those customers who buy one now will be pissed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eriamjh 

Doomed, I tell ya.  DOOOOOOOOOOMED!

 

 

Seriously, this could kill sales of the current Nokia phones.  Those customers who buy one now will be pissed.

No one will be buying Nokia phones. My guess is that they will most likely give them away. It will be interesting to see if MSFT chips in to help pay these bills. It might have been a tactic for MSFT to get to give these phones away to increase their market share. The other thing they could do is make sure anyone who buys this phone and gets any apps gets the app upgrade for free when they get a WP8 phone. Otherwise, you are right. New(as well as old)buyers will be mad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by benanderson89 

As long as the app is not written in raw C or C++ it will run on both OSes since silver light and XNA are standardised frameworks for development in the windows world.

Guess what, Microsoft has depreciated SilverLight on all plateform. WP8 and WP7.8 have the same basic UI, but under the hood you got 2 totally different OS here, WP7 still use WinCE.  From my point of view WP7 and 7.5 appear to be a false start for Microsoft, they lost 3 years to restart they're dying WinCE platform only to scrap everything and restart a second time on NT kernel this time.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by benanderson89 


Read the articles and technical details on the Internet a little better.
Windows phone 7.8 will have all the end user features of windows phone 8. Outside of that, it's all under the hood for better integration with Windows 8 and support for multi ore CPUs. As long as the app is not written in raw C or C++ it will run on both OSes since silver light and XNA are standardised frameworks for development in the windows world.
Apple's 3GS will be using iOS6, but guess what? All them tastey new features that make iOS 6 worth while are going to be on the 4s only. Hell, some features aren't even going to be on the 4! Those two systems will, basically, just get what they have now with version number++ and a different map icon. To keep all the end user features and app support across 7.8 and 8, MS is actually doing a better job at this than Apple.
Once wp8 comes out, the wp7 devices will come off the market. But the wp7 devices will still run the same apps, have the same core feature set and be updated on a regular basis. By the time WP7.8 is no longer supported, people with WP7 handsets will be getting an upgrade to their contract (if it's 2 year) or their contract would have already ended (18 month).
So, really, I do not see the problem with it all here, especially when Apple is doing a worse job at it and just claiming the hardware is incapable (which is clearly a lie).

Not sure what you are saying is true. Everything I have read on the internet, including a test of 7.8 on the 900 is that only the homescreen has changed so it has the same look. Not sure if the same "end user features" are the same. I highly doubt it. 

Also, you are comparing the 3GS, 2 models ago and will be 3 by the time iOS6 is released to just the previous version of Win and hardware from MS and Nokia. Thus, the comparison would be the the 4S, when iOS 6 and the new iPhone is released not the 3GS. Thus, all of the features are supported to the previous hardware generation. The 4, which will be 2 prior generations, will get 3 of the 7 major features and the 3GS will get none. But that is the major features that require better hardware. The 3GS will still get plenty of other features like, Maps (Just not flyover or navigation), guided access, do not disturb, single app mode, face book integration, app updates no longer requiring a password, purchasing of apps no longer dumps you to the home screen  and a host of other enhancements that were on the slide but not discussed at WWDC. Not just a new map icon and version number. 

Apple is doing a FAR better job of it as I stated. Not sure if they are just claiming that the hardware can't support a feature. The issue could be as simple as the feature may run under this hardware but could cause a bad user experience by slowing the overall system down due to increased processing. Or it may tak a longer amount of time for the phone to process things like Siri commands. Or have other ramifications Apple had this happen in a previous update to iOS with older hardware. Might have been iOS2- iOS3. The other issue is while you are looking at the bare bones feature of lets say Siri today, you don't know what Apple has projected in development in the future. Thus, a device might be able to handle the initial "Beta" feature set of "Siri' with an iPhone 4 (in iOS5) but then might not have the processing power and speed to handle where Siri development was headed for in iOS6. You can't just take a feature away or you would have to fragment the feature across platforms.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by imt1 

I also have to think that if this was MS intention to kill the stock price of Nokia and swoop in and buy it in a fire-sale that there would be legal repercussions. Shareholders would be pissed and would sue. I would also believe that there has to be some language in the contract between MS and Nokia. 

Yeah, I tend to agree. It SEEMS like MS set up some nice dominoes, but I say that more tongue-in-cheek. Even if they do buy Nokia (which seems possible, like Google with Motorola) I still don’t think there will be any evidence that the chain of events was intended for the sake of killing the price.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quadra 610 

MS is pulling the rug out from under Windows Phone from now until December. The platform is already floundering. Now there will be even *less* reason for consumers to spend money on it. And what's the point, anyway? If consumers want a cheap, disposable phone that is iPhone-like without it being an iPhone, there's Android. If consumers want the "cool", Premium iPhone experience then they can get an iPhone. 

 

What's the reason to get a Windows Phone? What is the point of this platform? It brings nothing really game-changing or killer to the table. 

I'd like it if they made a serious attempt rather than just put something out there to have a product in public view.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drblank 

Here's Microsoft method of doing business.  First they try to screw Apple by practically copying the Mac GUI, but changed it enough to not be caught stealing it. THEN, they write contracts with their OEM partners to basically prevent them from offering the Mac Operating System on PCs.  THEN they now are talking about offering these so-called tablets to prevent their OEM partners from competing in what is unfair business practices because their OEM partners have to PAY Microsoft for the use of their OSs, but Microsoft does't pay a dime for it, plus Microsoft gets a competitive jump on the competition by showing their Windows 8 tablets way ahead of the Windows 8 release date.  Now, all of the WIndows 7 phone users can't upgrade to Windows 8 and they just started selling these WIndows 7 phone not too long ago.

 

What next?  So, Microsoft not only tries to screw over their competitors, but their business partners (of which Apple was a business partner) and now they are screwing their OEM partners, customers and everyone that they can think of.

I am surprised Microsoft is still one company and I am surprised if they don't have a flood of lawsuits hitting them.

 

I'm glad I am Apple user.  Apple wouldn't release a piece of hardware and then release a new operating system within a year that the hardware won't support.  They wait a fair amount of time before they drop support on a hardware product with regards to OS updates.  You may not get all of the functionality, but at least you can install it.  I think Apple waits somewhere around 2 to 3 years before they drop OS support in terms of updating hardware products.  Correct me if I am wrong.  I know the Smartphone industry in general has been faster moving than the PC industry due to the very nature of the product, but within a year of releasing a product?

Apple and MS pull a lot of  the same stuff. In Apple's case. Sometimes their policies and tendencies are aggravating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apple ][ 

When you buy an Apple device, you know that you will be set for at least some years ahead, receiving new OS updates in a timely fashion and keeping your devices up to date.

 

With these other companies, and especially Android phones, the manufacturers just don't give a shit. They make a million models a year, and after some sorry suckers buy them, these people are basically screwed. This is why the vast majority of Android users are still stuck on some old, ancient, shitty version of Android. Only a very tiny percentage of users actually use the newest, latest, OS. They keep flinging shit to a wall, to see what sticks. 

This used to be true to some degree. In recent years they seem to support things as long as it's convenient to them. The original ipads didn't age that well if you wanted to stay on the latest IOS, but that's pretty typical with a first generation product. It will be interesting to see how the current model ages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nealg 

No one will be buying Nokia phones. My guess is that they will most likely give them away. It will be interesting to see if MSFT chips in to help pay these bills. It might have been a tactic for MSFT to get to give these phones away to increase their market share. The other thing they could do is make sure anyone who buys this phone and gets any apps gets the app upgrade for free when they get a WP8 phone. Otherwise, you are right. New(as well as old)buyers will be mad.

I saw a Lumia the other day. That was the first one I've seen in use.

I've never understood the deference Microsoft seems to get in the industry as compared to Apple. For instance, Adobe might never have existed without Apple and desktop printing and photo manipulation. But for years, Adobe was clearly simply impatient for Apple to die. (When Apple announced it would license Display Postscript for their new "OSX", Adobe promptly killed it off- and how many years was it before there was even an OSX-native version of PS?)

When the record companies were crashing and burning from Napster-assisted piracy, Apple literally saved that industry - and they've never seemed to forgive Apple for it. They're constantly trying to prop up a competitor to take ITMS down a notch (or ideally, kill it altogether).

When the iPhone became a hit, Apple stood by AT+T's market-limiting exclusivity for years, much to AT+T's benefit. As soon as that finally ended, AT+T started vigorously pushing the competition's knock-off phones. As did Verizon, once they had the iPhone on board.

Yet every time Microsoft sucker-punches their "partners", (Plays-For-Sure? Whoops! Kin phones? Whoops! Lumia and Win Phone 7.x? Whoops and whoops again), the partners seem content to grab their ankles and say "Thank you sir! May I have another?"

I don't get it. Why do they all put up with this?

I'm happy that I can keep my iPhone up to date with the latest iOS. But, steady on - not being able to update their OS is no deal-breaker for most people.

When Windows Phone 8 is released a Windows 7 phone will still do everything that it could when purchased. It is not 'obsolete' in any real sense other than for those obsessed with having the latest whatever.

The Android experience tells us that huge numbers of people still buy phones with outdated versions of the OS. Samsung sells loads, and does well out of it. 

And when there are updates to Android available, many people are not that bothered about updating.

This is no biggie for Nokia, and I doubt it will effect sales much. Not that there are that many sales to be effected!

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevt 

 

 

This is no biggie for Nokia, 

It's a biggie when hardcore Windows users constitute most of your market share.