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post #81 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

I don't recall ever reading here that someone said that Nokia will never fail, can you provide some references?

There were a few, you among them, who used to argue vehemently about Nokia's place in the order of things. I remember those arguments. You found it almost impossible to believe that Apple's phone could displace Symbian phones as the number one or two smartphone line.

Now, saying "never" is a foolish thing. Even the universe will die someday. I'm not saying that you used that word, because we weren't talking about decades, but still...
post #82 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

No update, what is 7.8 then?

OK, let's say 'no REAL update'. Just like Android.

The iPad started at iOS 3.2. Then 4.0. Then 5.0. Then the current one (plus some point upgrades in between).

Lumia started at Win 7 and will never make it to 8. The best they can offer is a new skin on a point upgrade.

Even you ought to be able to see the difference.
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post #83 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

There were a few, you among them, who used to argue vehemently about Nokia's place in the order of things. I remember those arguments. You found it almost impossible to believe that Apple's phone could displace Symbian phones as the number one or two smartphone line.
Now, saying "never" is a foolish thing. Even the universe will die someday. I'm not saying that you used that word, because we weren't talking about decades, but still...

It's not hard to find posts where he's talking up Nokia and/or talking down Apple's success. Literally 3 minutes from search to post.

Quote:
Nokia's pricing structure is an indication that their market share will continue to stay at the high levels that they are currently are. Remember, the majority of the worlds population cannot afford a phone with a average selling price of US$600
Quote:
Most people cannot afford (or do not want to pay) the service plan associated with an iPhone, making this phone (and all of the Nokia phones you can buy unlocked) a major advantage
Quote:
wow, big market there, I think Apple has more to be worried about than Nokia has.

Asia/Pacific is the market to go for, and another market Apple struggles in, the phones are over priced for the majority of people, and the plans associated with them are either too expensive, or too low for the data caps.

Look at the second link, especially the YoY growth. Huge growth there for the USA compared to the other markets (especially China), Nokia already has a good handle on the practice of providing networks with branded phones (as terrible as the concept is), how is Apple in that arena (well they will drop features as AT&T ask I suppose)
Quote:
As for iPhone sales, no they are not doing well in Europe, or any other country excluding the US, that is a fact. Appleinsider is a propaganda site, just like macrumors, they are here to say positive things about Apple, and they always have a postive outlook for everything, I wouldn't really trust information from here, particularly sales figures
Quote:
Also, for most business users, the companies want them to have basic features, the majority don't need data, don't need a fancy interface, don't need installable applications. They need a device that can make phones calls, and receive text messages. They don't like them spending unnecessary money.
Quote:
I consider the iPhone a failure in the same way i consider Apple screwing up their other products, especially in Europe, they try and continue with an American sales method, which doesn't work here


PS: Only pulled the ones that didn't require quotes from other posters to get context which means I had to leave out a lot of juicy ones.
Edited by SolipsismX - 6/21/12 at 7:40pm

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post #84 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

There were a few, you among them, who used to argue vehemently about Nokia's place in the order of things. I remember those arguments. You found it almost impossible to believe that Apple's phone could displace Symbian phones as the number one or two smartphone line.
Now, saying "never" is a foolish thing. Even the universe will die someday. I'm not saying that you used that word, because we weren't talking about decades, but still...

I have never said they will never fail. I will admit that I thought Apple would struggle, but I never said Nokia wouldn't fail.
post #85 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Even you ought to be able to see the difference.

Yes I can see a difference, but you need to be clearer in what you say.
post #86 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


It's not hard to find posts where he's talking up Nokia and/or talking down Apple's success. Literally 3 minutes from search to post.
Quote:
Nokia's pricing structure is an indication that their market share will continue to stay at the high levels that they are currently are. Remember, the majority of the worlds population cannot afford a phone with a average selling price of US$600
Quote:
Most people cannot afford (or do not want to pay) the service plan associated with an iPhone, making this phone (and all of the Nokia phones you can buy unlocked) a major advantage
Quote:
wow, big market there, I think Apple has more to be worried about than Nokia has.
Asia/Pacific is the market to go for, and another market Apple struggles in, the phones are over priced for the majority of people, and the plans associated with them are either too expensive, or too low for the data caps.
Look at the second link, especially the YoY growth. Huge growth there for the USA compared to the other markets (especially China), Nokia already has a good handle on the practice of providing networks with branded phones (as terrible as the concept is), how is Apple in that arena (well they will drop features as AT&T ask I suppose)
Quote:
As for iPhone sales, no they are not doing well in Europe, or any other country excluding the US, that is a fact. Appleinsider is a propaganda site, just like macrumors, they are here to say positive things about Apple, and they always have a postive outlook for everything, I wouldn't really trust information from here, particularly sales figures
Quote:
Also, for most business users, the companies want them to have basic features, the majority don't need data, don't need a fancy interface, don't need installable applications. They need a device that can make phones calls, and receive text messages. They don't like them spending unnecessary money.
Quote:
I consider the iPhone a failure in the same way i consider Apple screwing up their other products, especially in Europe, they try and continue with an American sales method, which doesn't work here
PS: Only pulled the ones that didn't quotes from other posters to clarify the meaning which I had to leave out a lot of juicy ones.

Ah.... the internet.... I love it.

post #87 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


I have never said they will never fail. I will admit that I thought Apple would struggle, but I never said Nokia wouldn't fail.

Hoist. Petard. Your own.

post #88 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Hoist. Petard. Your own.

Sorry, I must be getting too old, can you translate that?
post #89 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

It's not hard to find posts where he's talking up Nokia and/or talking down Apple's success. Literally 3 minutes from search to post.
Quote:
Nokia's pricing structure is an indication that their market share will continue to stay at the high levels that they are currently are. Remember, the majority of the worlds population cannot afford a phone with a average selling price of US$600
Quote:
Most people cannot afford (or do not want to pay) the service plan associated with an iPhone, making this phone (and all of the Nokia phones you can buy unlocked) a major advantage
Quote:
wow, big market there, I think Apple has more to be worried about than Nokia has.
Asia/Pacific is the market to go for, and another market Apple struggles in, the phones are over priced for the majority of people, and the plans associated with them are either too expensive, or too low for the data caps.
Look at the second link, especially the YoY growth. Huge growth there for the USA compared to the other markets (especially China), Nokia already has a good handle on the practice of providing networks with branded phones (as terrible as the concept is), how is Apple in that arena (well they will drop features as AT&T ask I suppose)
Quote:
As for iPhone sales, no they are not doing well in Europe, or any other country excluding the US, that is a fact. Appleinsider is a propaganda site, just like macrumors, they are here to say positive things about Apple, and they always have a postive outlook for everything, I wouldn't really trust information from here, particularly sales figures
Quote:
Also, for most business users, the companies want them to have basic features, the majority don't need data, don't need a fancy interface, don't need installable applications. They need a device that can make phones calls, and receive text messages. They don't like them spending unnecessary money.
Quote:
I consider the iPhone a failure in the same way i consider Apple screwing up their other products, especially in Europe, they try and continue with an American sales method, which doesn't work here
PS: Only pulled the ones that didn't quotes from other posters to clarify the meaning which I had to leave out a lot of juicy ones.

here we go again, and where did someone say they would never fail?
post #90 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdq2 View Post

Yet every time Microsoft sucker-punches their "partners", (Plays-For-Sure? Whoops! Kin phones? Whoops! Lumia and Win Phone 7.x? Whoops and whoops again), the partners seem content to grab their ankles and say "Thank you sir! May I have another?"

 

I don't get it. Why do they all put up with this?

 

Stockholm syndrome?

 

I agree, it's a real mystery. It should be clear, after around three decades: There are no Microsoft "partners". Only Microsoft victims.

post #91 of 130

There is a lot of crying foul over the7.8 issue and non upgrading to 8, but how about credit where credit is due, I would rather have a vendor say "hey, that hardware just cant handle the new stuff" I dont like it but I get it. Apple however makes people with the 3gs beleive that they are going to have IOS 6, when what they are going to have is nothing more than iOS 5 with a diferant and arguabley more limited maps application. Of the 10 features listed on Apples ios 6 landing page, all except the accecibility improvments are explicitly footnoted as not for 3gs, so really if Apple were honestwith customers, they would call it 5.9 and say "its the end of the road for this handset" but of coursethey dont wanna do that and the things will likely get iOS 7 next year too...

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post #92 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

There is a lot of crying foul over the7.8 issue and non upgrading to 8, but how about credit where credit is due, I would rather have a vendor say "hey, that hardware just cant handle the new stuff" I dont like it but I get it. Apple however makes people with the 3gs beleive that they are going to have IOS 6

I agree that we should give credit to MS for actually updating WP7 users to a slightly higher version of WP7 but they are still leaving their WP7 users behind by switching their kernel from WinCE to WinNT. They dropped their WinMo users not to long ago and now they are dropping their WP& users. It's a little gentler but they are still being put out and forgotten about.

Other than having a history of supporting devices for 3 full years which makes it ironic to pooh-pooh now where has Apple made you or anyone else believe that the 3GS will get iOS 6?

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post #93 of 130

To be fair, let's not completely blame Microsoft for screwing the consumers over.  It's in both of the companies' business models to focus on selling their core products - MS selling software license and Nokia selling hardware - which unluckily for consumers means getting crappy products.

post #94 of 130

Ahhh... The Flying Monkey Smurf phones.... Global joke...OEM belly-large wiiner of he year.... And most roundly rejected piece of Micro-Kia junk put on the this year... The Lap-let or top-tab smurf-mo platforms intruded by the Monkey Kingdom announced this week, isn't gonna be built by the Bomber-squadron either... It was announced that a Chinese contract manufacture was gonna actually do the work, with the Moyket mama's minions putting on the logo.....sometimes...

 

These people are a disgrace to modern tech. Companies today... 

post #95 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

MS is pulling the rug out from under Windows Phone from now until December. The platform is already floundering. Now there will be even *less* reason for consumers to spend money on it. And what's the point, anyway? If consumers want a cheap, disposable phone that is iPhone-like without it being an iPhone, there's Android. If consumers want the "cool", Premium iPhone experience then they can get an iPhone. 

 

What's the reason to get a Windows Phone? What is the point of this platform? It brings nothing really game-changing or killer to the table. 


Because some people actually like different GUI from Palm-esque (or, if you like, Newton-esque) apps in a grid, maybe?

 

From all the iPhone users I know, I'd say approximately half are not running latest iOS anyway. I know a few still running iOS 3.x. I'm personally running latest iOS on my 3Gs, but since I'm missing on Siri, video editing and what not, I'm not really having iOS 5 experience. I'm also missing Retina display, performance of new hardware (my 3Gs gets choppy every now and then) and cannot run some of the latest games (at least not with acceptable smoothness), so my iOS 5 experience is more theoretical anyway.

 

WP7.5 users will get updated GUI to provide them with part of WP8 experience. Hardware limitations they cannot overcome anyway, so even with WP8 they would not get faster phone, higher screen resolutions, SD card, near-field-whatever tech... major thing is apps compatibility, but considering that it will take, what? probably a year for WP8 phones to reach numbers of WP7.5 phones in wild, I don't think that any developer will create WP8 app without porting it to (or from) WP7.5 version anyway. Plus I believe MS mentioned somewhere they will make porting/cross-compiling between 7.5 and 8 as easy as possible.

 

Yes, it will still make developer's life harder. Such is life.

 

Marketing hype aside... phones like Lumia 900 are as good as they were yesterday, regardless of fact that something better just come out. Prices will go down even more. WP7.5 units could just as well replace remaining Nokia's Symbian offerings on their cheap side, and it's not like current Lumia 900 users overpaid them anyway. If I find myself looking for cheap basic smartphone later this year, I might just as well look at Lumia 900.

 

In my eyes also, there's a bit of identity crisis with iPhone nowadays. when I god mine back in 2009, there weren't too many of them here in NZ, and it was cool (in a geeky way) having one. But today? It seems to me there are still more iPhones than Androids around here. Getting another iPhone is not really cool anymore. It is just "me too". Coolness requires some exclusivity. iPhone, good as it is, is too much mainstream today. And being good does not automatically mean being cool.

post #96 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

Here's Microsoft method of doing business.  First they try to screw Apple by practically copying the Mac GUI, but changed it enough to not be caught stealing it. THEN, they write contracts with their OEM partners to basically prevent them from offering the Mac Operating System on PCs.  THEN they now are talking about offering these so-called tablets to prevent their OEM partners from competing in what is unfair business practices because their OEM partners have to PAY Microsoft for the use of their OSs, but Microsoft does't pay a dime for it, plus Microsoft gets a competitive jump on the competition by showing their Windows 8 tablets way ahead of the Windows 8 release date.  Now, all of the WIndows 7 phone users can't upgrade to Windows 8 and they just started selling these WIndows 7 phone not too long ago.

 

What next?  So, Microsoft not only tries to screw over their competitors, but their business partners (of which Apple was a business partner) and now they are screwing their OEM partners, customers and everyone that they can think of.


I am surprised Microsoft is still one company and I am surprised if they don't have a flood of lawsuits hitting them.

 

I'm glad I am Apple user.  Apple wouldn't release a piece of hardware and then release a new operating system within a year that the hardware won't support.  They wait a fair amount of time before they drop support on a hardware product with regards to OS updates.  You may not get all of the functionality, but at least you can install it.  I think Apple waits somewhere around 2 to 3 years before they drop OS support in terms of updating hardware products.  Correct me if I am wrong.  I know the Smartphone industry in general has been faster moving than the PC industry due to the very nature of the product, but within a year of releasing a product?


I lost you at "THEN, they write contracts with their OEM partners to basically prevent them from offering the Mac Operating System on PCs"

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_clone

 

Much as I can see, Apple - especially Jobs - didn't want to go IBM way of cloning.

post #97 of 130

Microsoft acquiring Nokia... That's an interesting thing to ponder. What a horrible predicament it must be for both Microsoft and Nokia - especially Microsoft. They're both cornered and none of the very limited options they have are attractive.

Acquiring Nokia would mean that Microsoft can forget about licensing WP8 to other OEM phone vendors. It'd be do or die with Nokia and it's already close to death. Not acquiring Nokia would mean that the Nokia burning platform would sink into the ocean anyway. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It's the same thing with what MS is doing with Surface. They made a choice to go it alone and have now royally pissed off their OEM partners. Samsung, for one, has yet another reason to develop their own software platform and ecosystem. They saw Google get Motorola and decided: "Okay, we can't rely on any of these software guys anymore long-term. We're going to have to roll our own."

Apple is pushing the competition to the brink, making them do stuff that was unimaginable only a few years ago. I heartily laugh at the idiots who said that the mobile devices industry is shaping up to be a repeat of the PC wars of the 80's and 90's and that Apple still hasn't learned and will suffer the same fate.

Now there is utter chaos developing in the Android and Windows worlds as their inhabitants claw and fight to avoid the fates of RIM and Nokia. What a sight! Couldn't have happened to a better bunch of companies... This is entertainment at its finest!
 

post #98 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

Here's Microsoft method of doing business.  First they try to screw Apple by practically copying the Mac GUI, but changed it enough to not be caught stealing it.


Microsoft didn't steal anything. One of the first things Steve Jobs did on his return to Apple was to make a licensing agreement with Microsoft for the GUI interface, in exchange for the multi-million dollar cash infusion which saved the company from bankruptcy. It was extremely controversial move at the time.
post #99 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maecvs View Post

Microsoft didn't steal anything. One of the first things Steve Jobs did on his return to Apple was to make a licensing agreement with Microsoft for the GUI interface, in exchange for the multi-million dollar cash infusion which saved the company from bankruptcy. It was extremely controversial move at the time.

It would have been controversial if that's what had happened.

Actually, Jobs licensed Microsoft with the rights to use Apple's APIs to make software for the Mac. Unfortunately, bad legal advice made the agreement broader than it was intended to be and the court ruled that it was not actually limited to Mac software.
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

There is a lot of crying foul over the7.8 issue and non upgrading to 8, but how about credit where credit is due, I would rather have a vendor say "hey, that hardware just cant handle the new stuff" I dont like it but I get it. Apple however makes people with the 3gs beleive that they are going to have IOS 6, when what they are going to have is nothing more than iOS 5 with a diferant and arguabley more limited maps application. Of the 10 features listed on Apples ios 6 landing page, all except the accecibility improvments are explicitly footnoted as not for 3gs, so really if Apple were honestwith customers, they would call it 5.9 and say "its the end of the road for this handset" but of coursethey dont wanna do that and the things will likely get iOS 7 next year too...

That is, of course, nonsense.

First, Apple's upgrades bring lots of new features to older phones. In fact, the number of new features which do NOT work on older phones is usually quite small.

Second, look at the timing. You're talking about iOS 6 features that might not work on a 4 year old phone. This article is about inability to upgrade a brand spanking new phone.

Finally, there's also the 'Android effect'. Even when a phone is capable of handling a newer version of Android, it rarely gets the update - which is why most phones are unable to upgrade to Android 3.0 or 4.0, even if they are physically capable of running it. This article suggests that the same thing will be happening in the Windows Mobile world.
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post #100 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

I'm glad I am Apple user.  Apple wouldn't release a piece of hardware and then release a new operating system within a year that the hardware won't support.  They wait a fair amount of time before they drop support on a hardware product with regards to OS updates.  You may not get all of the functionality, but at least you can install it.  I think Apple waits somewhere around 2 to 3 years before they drop OS support in terms of updating hardware products.  Correct me if I am wrong.  I know the Smartphone industry in general has been faster moving than the PC industry due to the very nature of the product, but within a year of releasing a product?

 

Wow, that's a very blinkered response!

The other way of looking at it is that Microsoft is ensuring that the OS version available for certain devices is designed for those devices, with all features enabled that can be. Apple on the other hand 'tell' people that they're getting iOS4/5/6/..., but in reality it's a cut-down version with a whole host of features removed.  As much as everyone loves to hate on Microsoft, they're potentially addressing the upgrade/fragmentation issue in a clearer, more upfront way than Android or iOS (at least older Apple devices can run newer cut-down versions of iOS, unlike the mountain of old Android handsets that can't be upgraded any further due to hardware limitations and networks no longer supporting the old versions).  It's a different approach, but I think it's actually a far less damaging one than is being reported by the media.

post #101 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

It's not hard to find posts where he's talking up Nokia and/or talking down Apple's success. Literally 3 minutes from search to post.
Quote:
Nokia's pricing structure is an indication that their market share will continue to stay at the high levels that they are currently are. Remember, the majority of the worlds population cannot afford a phone with a average selling price of US$600
Quote:
Most people cannot afford (or do not want to pay) the service plan associated with an iPhone, making this phone (and all of the Nokia phones you can buy unlocked) a major advantage
Quote:
wow, big market there, I think Apple has more to be worried about than Nokia has.
Asia/Pacific is the market to go for, and another market Apple struggles in, the phones are over priced for the majority of people, and the plans associated with them are either too expensive, or too low for the data caps.
Look at the second link, especially the YoY growth. Huge growth there for the USA compared to the other markets (especially China), Nokia already has a good handle on the practice of providing networks with branded phones (as terrible as the concept is), how is Apple in that arena (well they will drop features as AT&T ask I suppose)
Quote:
As for iPhone sales, no they are not doing well in Europe, or any other country excluding the US, that is a fact. Appleinsider is a propaganda site, just like macrumors, they are here to say positive things about Apple, and they always have a postive outlook for everything, I wouldn't really trust information from here, particularly sales figures
Quote:
Also, for most business users, the companies want them to have basic features, the majority don't need data, don't need a fancy interface, don't need installable applications. They need a device that can make phones calls, and receive text messages. They don't like them spending unnecessary money.
Quote:
I consider the iPhone a failure in the same way i consider Apple screwing up their other products, especially in Europe, they try and continue with an American sales method, which doesn't work here
PS: Only pulled the ones that didn't require quotes from other posters to get context which means I had to leave out a lot of juicy ones.

Yes. That was typical of his posting on this. Just like the leadership of Nokia all the way up to the middle of 2010.
post #102 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

I have never said they will never fail. I will admit that I thought Apple would struggle, but I never said Nokia wouldn't fail.

Sol's selections from your posting, and I've got some saved as well, shows your opinions clearly. You don't have to say that you don't think a company will ever fail, or will never fail, when you're saying that they will continue being number one. That's an assumption that in the foreseeable future, not only will they not fail, but will continue being on the top.

Right now they are jetting to the bottom, and failing is now on the agenda.

And, of course, as I said before, "never" is a foolish word to use. There are other ways of hinting it, in a deniable way.

Just face it. You were wrong. Nokia s reed up badly, and Apple's strategy is correct.
post #103 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


Because some people actually like different GUI from Palm-esque (or, if you like, Newton-esque) apps in a grid, maybe?

From all the iPhone users I know, I'd say approximately half are not running latest iOS anyway. I know a few still running iOS 3.x. I'm personally running latest iOS on my 3Gs, but since I'm missing on Siri, video editing and what not, I'm not really having iOS 5 experience. I'm also missing Retina display, performance of new hardware (my 3Gs gets choppy every now and then) and cannot run some of the latest games (at least not with acceptable smoothness), so my iOS 5 experience is more theoretical anyway.

WP7.5 users will get updated GUI to provide them with part of WP8 experience. Hardware limitations they cannot overcome anyway, so even with WP8 they would not get faster phone, higher screen resolutions, SD card, near-field-whatever tech... major thing is apps compatibility, but considering that it will take, what? probably a year for WP8 phones to reach numbers of WP7.5 phones in wild, I don't think that any developer will create WP8 app without porting it to (or from) WP7.5 version anyway. Plus I believe MS mentioned somewhere they will make porting/cross-compiling between 7.5 and 8 as easy as possible.

Yes, it will still make developer's life harder. Such is life.

Marketing hype aside... phones like Lumia 900 are as good as they were yesterday, regardless of fact that something better just come out. Prices will go down even more. WP7.5 units could just as well replace remaining Nokia's Symbian offerings on their cheap side, and it's not like current Lumia 900 users overpaid them anyway. If I find myself looking for cheap basic smartphone later this year, I might just as well look at Lumia 900.

In my eyes also, there's a bit of identity crisis with iPhone nowadays. when I god mine back in 2009, there weren't too many of them here in NZ, and it was cool (in a geeky way) having one. But today? It seems to me there are still more iPhones than Androids around here. Getting another iPhone is not really cool anymore. It is just "me too". Coolness requires some exclusivity. iPhone, good as it is, is too much mainstream today. And being good does not automatically mean being cool.

Then you know a backwards crowd, because we know that at least 80% are.
post #104 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maecvs View Post

Microsoft didn't steal anything. One of the first things Steve Jobs did on his return to Apple was to make a licensing agreement with Microsoft for the GUI interface, in exchange for the multi-million dollar cash infusion which saved the company from bankruptcy. It was extremely controversial move at the time.

Actually, no. What happened years before, was that Apple licensed the ability to use certain elements of Mac OS to developers, including Microsoft. Microsoft decided to take it and use it in Windows, as a replacement for what they were doing in Windows 1 and 2.

The problem for Apple was that when the contracts were written out, they were too vague. The courts decided that because of their unintentional vagueness, Microsoft was allowed to use the features in Windows.

You don't know what you're talking about at all here.

The agreements Apple and Microsoft made had to to with Microsoft using QuickTime code in their OS, and in WMP. Microsoft had farmed this out to a third party, who glommed Apple's code. Without this code, Windows wasn't able to play video without stuttering. Apple found out, and threatened to sue. This would have been an open and shut case. But Apple decided to negotiate with Microsoft instead.

What resulted was an agreement to write Office for the Mac for 5 years. To invest $150 million in non voting stock. For Bill Gates to make that infamous video appearance at Macworld. And, possibly most importantly, for a wide ranging patent cross licensing agreement that's still in force.

That's the facts, and you can look them up instead of making things up.
post #105 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by arob View Post

Wow, that's a very blinkered response!
The other way of looking at it is that Microsoft is ensuring that the OS version available for certain devices is designed for those devices, with all features enabled that can be. Apple on the other hand 'tell' people that they're getting iOS4/5/6/..., but in reality it's a cut-down version with a whole host of features removed.  As much as everyone loves to hate on Microsoft, they're potentially addressing the upgrade/fragmentation issue in a clearer, more upfront way than Android or iOS (at least older Apple devices can run newer cut-down versions of iOS, unlike the mountain of old Android handsets that can't be upgraded any further due to hardware limitations and networks no longer supporting the old versions).  It's a different approach, but I think it's actually a far less damaging one than is being reported by the media.

What he's saying is pretty much true though. You guys are trying to make something out of nothing here by comparing old phones to current ones. Apple has addressed the upgrade "problem" better than anyone else in the industry. Pretending otherwise is just fatuous.

Google has screwed things up because they knew that if they didn't allow control to the manufacturers and carriers, no one would build Android phones. So they have a major, and continuing problem.

Microsoft needed to move away from Win Mobile as quickly as possible, once they belatedly realized that they were wrong about it and the iPhone.

But they had nothing to replace it with, so they just updated CE to rev 3, and added a new UI from the Zune, which was all they had available. They changed the programming model a bit from what the Zune had, and Boom! A new OS, sorta.

But they knew that it wasn't competitive with the Linux based Android, and the Unix based iOS. But it takes years to come up with a really new system, even one based on something else. So it took years for Microsoft to come up with WP8. But that's totally different from WP7. Since the new phones will be much more powerful than the old, now obsolete models, they can run the fairly simple apps the old models have.

But the old phones can't run WP8. Ok, so that's obvious. Microsoft had no choice here, as I keep saying. But that doesn't change the fact that it's crappy for the people who have bought WP7 phones. The ones who bought them over a year ago, will probable get some discount for a new one. Those who bought them in late 2010 will be eligible for a new one at whatever cost they would be paying anyway. So far so good.

But those who have been buying phones less than a year from the time the new ones will be out will be entitled to no discount at all. They will have to pay full price. To pretend to yourself that this is equivelant to what Apple does is dreaming.

But, I still think that Microsoft might do something here. They seem to love throwing away large amounts of cash. So it's possible, for the publicity, that they might offer a discount to those who bought phones too late to get one. Possibly, if they're in a really good mood, they will give everyone who bought a phone on a plan, the amount they would have to pay on that plan to get a new phone. That could be anyrhing from nothing to maybe $300.

This would cost them several hundred million to a billion, or so. They can afford it. They are losing about $3.5 billion a year on Bing, why not a bit more to satisfy customers. And heck, they lost over $8 billion over the years on the Xbox, and are losing money on it now. So if the phone is so important to them, they shouldn't balk at losing some more to make customers happy.
post #106 of 130

No worries, they'll release the Lumina "909" to solve that problem.  Nothing you can do about those who own a 900 though.  :)

post #107 of 130

The other thing that folks seem to be forgetting or glossing over is that when Apple updates and older devices don't get all the features, they STILL get to run the new apps coming out unless some new hardware feature is required.  The Lumia 900, which was announced in January but only hit the shelves (in the U.S.) in April will not be able to run newly developed apps because the core is changing.  That is very different than what happens on Apple devices.  What makes it worse is that the app market for WP 7.x was still developing, it wasn't mature yet.  There were many app categories that hadn't been filled out yet, and now they likely never will. This is also a problem that Apple device owners generally don't face during upgrades because the app market for iOS is really pretty well flashed out/developed.

 

To those who say that WP 7.x is crap - I suspect they haven't tried/used one for any real period of time.  There are many things about it that aren't up to the same level as iOS, but it is far from crap.  There are a few items that it even does better than iOS (like eMail, for example).

 

I think many WP 7.x users, while not expecting a full WP 8 upgrade, were hoping that at least the core would be ported so that they could continue to use new apps going forward, but that isn't going to be the case and for WP users that sucks.

post #108 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Sol's selections from your posting, and I've got some saved as well, shows your opinions clearly. You don't have to say that you don't think a company will ever fail, or will never fail, when you're saying that they will continue being number one. That's an assumption that in the foreseeable future, not only will they not fail, but will continue being on the top.

Wow, you save copies of postings, that's a little sad.

But in saying that, please post where I said Nokia would never fail, I don't recall ever saying it, no one has yet posted a quote of me saying it, so if you have one, please post it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Right now they are jetting to the bottom, and failing is now on the agenda.
And, of course, as I said before, "never" is a foolish word to use. There are other ways of hinting it, in a deniable way.
Just face it. You were wrong. Nokia s reed up badly, and Apple's strategy is correct.

I was not wrong regarding this thread, I never posted what you claim, you also claim you have copies yet can't produce one saying that. You can continue your AI viewpoint of changing the rules half way through a discussion but once again that is a fail, please produce a quote that I said Nokia would never fail.
post #109 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Yes. That was typical of his posting on this. Just like the leadership of Nokia all the way up to the middle of 2010.


Quoting some posts that have nothing to the claim doesn't help anyones claims, it just makes you look foolish, why don't you get back to the original claim, when did I ever claim that Nokia would never fail?
post #110 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

I'm glad I am Apple user.  Apple wouldn't release a piece of hardware and then release a new operating system within a year that the hardware won't support.

Mac Mini was released in January 2005, Tiger was released April 2005 which contain QI features that the Mac Mini didn't support
post #111 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

When you buy an Apple device, you know that you will be set for at least some years ahead, receiving new OS updates in a timely fashion and keeping your devices up to date.

 

With these other companies, and especially Android phones, the manufacturers just don't give a shit. They make a million models a year, and after some sorry suckers buy them, these people are basically screwed. This is why the vast majority of Android users are still stuck on some old, ancient, shitty version of Android. Only a very tiny percentage of users actually use the newest, latest, OS. They keep flinging shit to a wall, to see what sticksMind you, 

Mind you, some of those OS updates made it worst on older phones, and Appl didn't care to let people to downgrade back to previous OS. And those that worked reasonably fine were missing major upgrade features anyway.

 

Why Siri cannot work on 3Gs? The whole voice recognition/answer generator happens on server side, right?

post #112 of 130

Hello everyone - I have been following this topic and joined to tell you what I think.

 

A bit about me: I wouldn't consider myself a rabid fan of any one particular OS; I tend to dabble in them all. I have an iPod Touch 64Gb for music, ebooks and a few apps; I also have a Shuffle. I own a Sony Xperia Arc S, (it was surprisingly easy to update to ICS a few months ago) a Blackberry Playbook, (it was cheap but nice hardware) and recently I bought a Nokia Lumia 710. In the past I'd owned many symbian Nokias - from the 6630 in 2005, the N95 8Gb and the 5800.

 

I bought the 710 as a cheap, beater phone - they were practically giving them away - £99 unlocked with free £20 apps, free Monster iems, free 6 month Zune pass etc. Insert microSim of my choice and away I go on my Windows Phone adventure. But......

 

.....the 710 is a P.O.S. The 101-reasons-not-to-buy-a-Windows-Phone doesn't even cover it. Most annoying is the lack of Blutooth file transfer, the ear-shattering volume of getting an SMS whilst on a voice call, my voice call being terminated whenever I get an alert ie a calendar reminder or a BBC breaking news notification etc. The music player is garbage, with no EQ settings and is just a confusing mess with no clear indications of which one of those oversized Zune words I should be pressing just to play an album or a song. Playlists? An incredibly long, cumbersome method of creating them on the phone itself - the complete opposite of the simplicity of the music player on the Touch.

 

Still, at least I can't complain that I got burned too badly moneywise - the phone is like a poor Beta version of what it should be (and not even worth £99).

 

Nokia will go bankrupt soon - this year or next at the latest. I tend to think the entire BOD is corrupt in appointing and supporting Elop in his bizarre decisions to publicly rubbish symbian, (which was still profitable) strangle their own in-house OS while it was still in the crib, and get into bed with Microsoft.

 

The decision to announce the 900 in the US in April, supported by a massive, expensive campaign of promotion is duplicitous in the extreme.

 

Shame on Elop and the BOD.

post #113 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Wow, you save copies of postings, that's a little sad.
But in saying that, please post where I said Nokia would never fail, I don't recall ever saying it, no one has yet posted a quote of me saying it, so if you have one, please post it.
I was not wrong regarding this thread, I never posted what you claim, you also claim you have copies yet can't produce one saying that. You can continue your AI viewpoint of changing the rules half way through a discussion but once again that is a fail, please produce a quote that I said Nokia would never fail.

My gosh, you really are acting like a loser here. Wow! So concerned that people save some posts. 1smile.gif

I don't save posts of what you write, so please don't thnk they you are so important. Sometimes, if I write something I want to remember, and perhaps may want to refer to sometime later, I will save MY post. That involves the other person's part of the post as well. I suppose you never write anything you might want to use later for anything. That's fine. If I posted what you do, I wouldn't want to remember it later either.

You are also not very good at understanding what people write. Did I not say several times that I haven't accused you of saying that Nokia will NEVER fail? Yes I did. I did say, which has already been confirmed in Sol's posting things you've said, that you were convinced that Apple could not take significant share from Nokia, or that they would drop in their own sales significantly as a result.

We know that you were wrong in all the points you were posting about. Isn't that enough for you? You seem to be obsessed now with one word. A word of no significance at all. The truth is that you were totally wrong about everything you said about Nokia in those says.

Why don't you just man up to it and get it over with. Then we can continue with our discussion of why Nokia is failing these days.

Oh, and it's foolish to challenge me to show a post that I've saved. What dopes that accomplish for you, more embarrassment? sol has already done that, I don't have to bother.
post #114 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Quoting some posts that have nothing to the claim doesn't help anyones claims, it just makes you look foolish, why don't you get back to the original claim, when did I ever claim that Nokia would never fail?

Sol's posts were to the point exactly. You've been denying a lot of things. He simply showed that you are wrong in your denials. Just admit it and move on.
post #115 of 130

While Nokia's woes may worsen or get better, it isn't going to be related to the Windows 8/7.8 thing. Most people out there are idiots on technical matters. The Microsoft App store will still show them the 100,000 currently available apps for their phone. The future apps that aren't 7.8 compatible it will exclude from their store or inform them it isn't available. The person using the older phone won't question it too much and no doubt their carrier in the U.S. will be informing them that their whole 20 month old phone ought to be chucked for something new anyway.

 

On some phone sites, they have said the issue with Windows 8 and current phones isn't about hardware because Nokia has already been working with Microsoft to lower the hardware requirements of Windows Phone and will continue to do so. The issue is that Windows 8 is so different that you cannot flash it onto a currently running phone in any safe and manageable manner without wiping the phone. 95% of the people out there won't and don't care, just like they don't upgrade their storage or their RAM. The five percent that do care will likely enjoy buying the used phones on the cheap, flashing them and either using them or reselling them as Windows 8 phones. Microsoft and Nokia didn't want to have some chunk of their customer base come into vendor stores and end up paying their staff to save, wipe, flash Windows 8 and then get their info back onto the phone. The Lumia 710 available through Tmobile as an example is barely selling for over $200 OFF CONTRACT. There can't be a ton of profit margin there to give away paying support staff to spend time flashing phones.

 

Android has proven the issue of leaving phones behind in terms of OS. Even Apple has no problem leaving major features off good chunks of their phones that clearly can handle and run them. When the phone subsidy model stops working in the U.S. perhaps people will start to care and actually want phones and service that lasts instead of basically throwaway $400-600 phones but for now they don't care. They just sign up for a new phone and agree to a new contract for bills that are increasingly looking as large as compact car payments.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #116 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

My gosh, you really are acting like a loser here. Wow! So concerned that people save some posts. 1smile.gif

Hmm, personal insult?
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You are also not very good at understanding what people write. Did I not say several times that I haven't accused you of saying that Nokia will NEVER fail?

If you know I didn't say it, then why are you going on about it. I have already said I didn't think Apple would do as well as they did, I said this before you jumped in on your personal attack band wagon. Stop attacking me for no reason, well except for the self gratification it seems to give you
post #117 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Sol's posts were to the point exactly. You've been denying a lot of things. He simply showed that you are wrong in your denials. Just admit it and move on.

Actually no, his post did nothing. In fact a lot of Nokias problems have been caused by Android based phones (they have been the ones attacking the lower end phones). I won't admit something I haven't done.
post #118 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Hmm, personal insult?
If you know I didn't say it, then why are you going on about it. I have already said I didn't think Apple would do as well as they did, I said this before you jumped in on your personal attack band wagon. Stop attacking me for no reason, well except for the self gratification it seems to give you

You're the one going on about it. We're just responding to your posts.
post #119 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Actually no, his post did nothing. In fact a lot of Nokias problems have been caused by Android based phones (they have been the ones attacking the lower end phones). I won't admit something I haven't done.

Sure.
post #120 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Unfortunately, bad legal advice made the agreement broader than it was intended to be and the court ruled that it was not actually limited to Mac software.
 

 

 

It seems that Apple's legal department has been letting the company down for quite some time.  In another thread, we learned that Apple is facing a ban on the iPad and the iPhone in the US due to a legal failure dealing with Motorola.

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