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Microsoft Surface just a ploy to sell Windows 8, says Acer founder - Page 2

post #41 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

 

Sorry, but your post is complete bullshit. The original iPhone was competing with nothing. The original iPad- nothing. The original Macbook Air- nothing. There was nothing like it. They basically created the modern smartphone, tablet, and ultrabook markets, with new products where Apple wasn't defending themselves but entering new markets. Apple does their best work regardless of what anyone else is doing. They've never 'stagnated' because of something related to the competition. If anything, there's more competition now against them than there ever has been, so your logic is incredibly flawed. Oh, and Siri is 'useless' because you deem it so? Yeah, controlling a device in a handsfree manner by using natural language is entirely 'useless' I can't think of a single scenario where that might be actually useful. I've used Siri thousands of times in my car, etc, or for various tasks where it's much faster than any other method. Also, why don't you list some 'innovations' that Apple should implement, since you obviously have a ton in mind?

 

Wow. Talk about flawed logic. A computer company that struggled for many years to compete with Windows PCs invents new things and enters new markets because they aren't competing?! And they work in a vacuum where nothing anyone else is doing affects their designs? Sorry, can't wrap my head around that one. Jobs was an expert at twisting reality but you my friend are the master!

 

Also I never said Siri was useless. I said I found it painful to use when compared to an earlier product, Voice Control, and that Siri could have been done better. And my "innovation" was to have both features work in tandem to improve the voice recognition experience for the user.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

 

Yeah, because under Jobs this never happened, right? I can think of like 20 situations off the top of my head where it did, most more eggregious than Siri. Stop trying to twist reality to fit your narrative that the boat is sinking because Jobs is gone. Jobs was alive for 4 generations of iPhones, and there was a TON of people bitching during that time about features artificially limited to newer devices. This didn't start after his death, but I'm sure you knew that. There's not a shred of evidence to suggest Siri would be on the iPad 2 or iPhone 4 if Jobs was alive. An objective, reasonable person would realize that Apple's decision making, philosophy, attitude, and obsession with detail and excellence has remained remarkably consistent. 

 

Go ahead and list those 20 situations. I'm sure it'll be impractical things that most of the whiners complained about like no multi-tasking on their iPhone 3G. You know what, I hacked mine to enable it and it sucked. There's a difference between enforcing a practical limitation and enforcing one for marketing purposes and that is what I was getting at.

 

I never said the boat is sinking. Why are you saying that? All I said is that it's just on a different course. One that doesn't really appeal to me given the satisfaction I've previously had from Apple's products over the last 12 years.

post #42 of 82

The truth, as if we didn't know the story already, finally comes out.  

MS would loose its a** if they tried tending to hardware. Software licensing is their true bread and butter.

Ok, the Xbox is a hit but it ain't like trying to deal with 1 billion pcs!!

post #43 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


When did Apple decide to take Mac OS X, strip down to it's bare essentials and then build it back up? We know the iPhone came out in 2007 so that's at least 3 years before the iPad came out and I'm under the impression it was at least 3 years before that. Even before that Mac OS X was built using PPC and x86 and had already transitioned Mac OS from Moto to PPC.
I suppose we can say MS has experience with PPC from porting Windows to create the Xbox but I doubt they put in the same effort or had the same constraints since it's the same essential HW and much more powerful than a PC, phone or tablet.
I commend MS for actually porting WinNT to their smartphone and eschewing WinCE in the process, and getting a single OS across ARM and x86, but it all seems rushed and without a proper cross development kit it seems like it's all going to backfire. Maybe they do have one that can build cross platform apps as easily as Apple's SDK allows, or easier, but I certainly haven't read about it and certainly didn't see it demoed yesterday in their very long and bored 2 hour video on Win8.

SJ gave an interview I believe at AllThingsD, where he stated that the iPad was the first device they were prototyping, but the hardware wasn't there yet... so they decided to do the iPhone instead/first.

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post #44 of 82

My guess is that if this fails — no, when it fails — that it will be the end of Ballmer, that this will be the last failure he will be allowed to have. It will be interesting to see what this will do to Android, but I predict that it will have a negligible effect on iPad sales.

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post #45 of 82

Sounds like wishful thinking on Mr. Shih's part. I think whether they abandon it or not will depend on whether it's successful, not any philosophical hardware/software point.

post #46 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

 

I agree with you except for the quantity sold. The RT version will hit the market first, without much of a app selection. It will be buggy and many promised features will be "added soon." The MSspeak for "don't hold your breath." This will set the mood for the Intel version which will sell like bacon in an Arab market. Since these turds will only be dropped on the USA market, I project sales of them to be in the hundreds of thousands combined.

 

You really have to think of them as being only a "table top" device. With a floppy keyboard and kickstand they will be hell to use on your lap or in bed, in the car, or anywhere you don't have a flat surface to set them up; hence the name, SURFACE.   But lets keep this in mind, the Intel Surface, while being a table top computer has no more speed or graphics power then the MBA. It is FAR from being a desk top computer in any way. So, compare it to an MBA, without a back-lit keyboard, about half the time away from a power source, and unusable in most the ways one would use a MBA. The SURFACE is more of proof-of-concept then a marketable device.


I was going to type the exact same thing!... and add a bit:

 

Step back from the MS presentation, and take a look what's out there already... and many additions to come.

 

Windows 8 has "touch" baked in. Meaning: any manufacturer can add a touch-enabled screen to their device with Windows 8. That means ANY laptop, netbook, desktop monitor, all-in-one... even a TV for that matter at some point in time.

 

The ONLY thing Microsoft did here was move all of the innards of a netbook/laptop... behind the screen rather than under the keyboard. That's it.

 

"Touch" is not anything special or exclusive to the Surface. In fact, you can buy stand-alone touch-screens (anybody, not just developers), and integrate them with any number of OSes... including WinXP if you wanted to. An electrician buddy of mine installs them in houses for specialized security and home utility management.

 

The Surface as presented... is a netbook, that can be used as a tablet.... but ONLY in landscape mode, or so it appears.

 

Now go out and find a netbook, that you REALLY would love to use on a daily basis with MS Office, Photoshop, or AutoCad (no MBA's allowed :)

 

Next fire up a browser and watch a half-hour or so of Flash-based content. Come back in 2 hours and let us know if it's still usable without a power cable, and whether it didn't re-VaporizeMG™ the enclosure... and burnt a nice hole on the screen where the processor sits.

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post #47 of 82

There are a few more problems to Surface Pro and a tablet or netbook:

 

1) security -- apparently, Microsoft will be delivering Windows 8 with all the security you need. Really? They're dumping on the huge security software guys too? How long will that last?

 

2) "if" MS security is not enough, what will be the added detractors when people start to install security suites on this device?

 

3) when the performance goes down hill... and possibly someone does experience the "odd" burnt hole in the screen or discolorization... where do they take it to to be fixed? Do they send it back in to Microsoft to be repaired? If so... how's their record on Customer Satisfaction, repairs, and warranty?

 

4) Do they have ANY experience or track-record when a device is user-configurable (as opposed to xbox), quote: "all your current programs will run on this in desktop mode".

 

5) when an install of say Adobe CS6 goes belly up... and doesn't work properly... what will be Microsoft's response? User error? Ask Adobe? Send it right in and we'll fix it?

 

Considering that a simple thing like a presentation was so botched, faked, and not very well thought out... can anyone trust Microsoft to have thought of those above points before taking on their OEMs?*

 

* I imagine an entire department of people responsible for the above answers at MS, already making appointments for therapy and stress-management... or actively searching for a new job!
 

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post #48 of 82

Macky the Macky said:

"You really have to think of them as being only a "table top" device. With a floppy keyboard and kickstand they will be hell to use on your lap or in bed, in the car, or anywhere you don't have a flat surface to set them up; hence the name, SURFACE. But lets keep this in mind, the Intel Surface, while being a table top computer has no more speed or graphics power then the MBA. It is FAR from being a desk top computer in any way. So, compare it to an MBA, without a back-lit keyboard, about half the time away from a power source, and unusable in most the ways one would use a MBA. The SURFACE is more of proof-of-concept then a marketable device."

> Exactly! The keyboard cover is what is getting the lion's share of attention as THE ground-breaking innovation. Sure the Surface can be used as a Tablet, but they're effectively marketing it as a laptop - and in its laptop configuration, its awkwardness will make it unusable anywhere but on a table. Bizarre. 

I have an electric hedge trimmer for the high hedges, and secateurs for the less demanding garden work - of which there is plenty. Similarly, I have a MBP for the demanding stuff, and an iPad for the somewhat less demanding activities - of which there is plenty. Horses for courses. The marketing of Surface seems to ignore this.   

 

 

post #49 of 82

One last post here:

 

As I noted above, and let's get this straight: the Surface is a netbook PC with the "ability" to do touch.

 

I just printed out a 9,2x5,2" (16:9) screenshot of Photoshop, Lightroom, and MS Word from a web screenshot.

 

While readable... and workable... there will be compromises. The main one I see is that when working with "pro" software as above.... you better ALWAYS have the stylus with you and not lose it(!) Naturally, the keyboard/trackpad cover is also possible unless you carry a mouse as well, and until Logitec comes out with something better.

 

Also, again I'll say, don't expect pressure-sensitivity with a battery-less stylus, or else MS would have to state it licensed from Wacom somewhere. Or have they bought a company we no nothing about. What I wrote in italics is heavily patented by Wacom FYI... that's why they also have very limited if any competition.

 

That means that the trackpad better be absolutely perfect, and rival the MBA's. Because currently, no other manufacturer has been able to come up with a TP that beats an MBP or Air's. I would suggest that is the reason for the stylus in the first place.

 

Moreover, I seriously doubt anyone is going to be working with pro software using touch... ever.... without a redesign of the software itself. Will the likes of Adobe do it? Will Microsoft do it with Office Student and Home Edition 2013 Preview. Yes, that's the official MS name for it. What does that mean for Office 2007, 2010/11 users? And compatibility?

 

At the end, I was also thinking this could be a neat little gadget and I would also buy the Pro. I'll think I'll stick to an MBA, my iPads, and my Macs.

 

One device to rule them all and do everything is not looking like it's going to be the Surface. Too many "what ifs".

 

Now when... not if... Apple fusions what we want from a desktop, and what we love from iOS... you just KNOW Apple will be called the copycat. However, at that time... and only that time... will it be done seamlessly right to perfection. Bank on it.

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post #50 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by pembroke View Post

> Exactly! The keyboard cover is what is getting the lion's share of attention as THE ground-breaking innovation. Sure the Surface can be used as a Tablet, but they're effectively marketing it as a laptop - and in its laptop configuration, its awkwardness will make it unusable anywhere but on a table. Bizarre.

You're missing the entire point. The keyboard doesn't mean that it can only be used with the keyboard. What they're offering is a tablet that will try to compete with all the other tablets, but with an additional feature - the keyboard. So you can use it just like any other tablet (in the car, on the beach, in your lap), but when you want to do extensive typing, you add the keyboard and put it on a table.

If the tablet portion is any good, this concept could be successful. I've argued for a long time that there's a place for an 'iPad Pro' which amounts to the same thing as this - an iPad with optional keyboard or with a keyboard which folds back out of the way like the older HP slates.
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post #51 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by otterfish View Post

 I only mentioned two generations not three but we are splitting hairs. I don't think you understand what I am getting it.

You're not getting it and I have neither the patience or time to explain what should be obvious about a server-side service being available to another 150 million devices simply because you claim the local HW can handle it.

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post #52 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by otterfish View Post

 
I only mentioned two generations not three but we are splitting hairs. I don't think you understand what I am getting it. By withholding features such as Siri from products that are quite capable of running it, Apple is engaging in an economic trick known as "Premium Pricing" which is a form of price discrimination. That's the type of behaviour that is typical of a company that is run by sales and marketing and not a company that believes "that technology alone is not enough".  Shame, as I thought this was exactly what Jobs didn't want to happen to the company. Companies do this because it leads to economic success but it makes for lousy consumer experience in the long run.
 
Apple seems to have no problem getting Mountain Lion to run on 5 year-old hardware. Check out the specs page for supported models. However, imagine if they told you that you can only use iCloud, Photo-sync and Messages on the latest generation hardware and none of the older models. What would you think then?
 
Sure, you can't expect Apple to provide a fully featured iOS release for mobile devices older than a couple of years given the CPUs in those devices. But withholding, as you said, "a server-side service" from those older devices, that's just blatant marketing. Oh, and maybe if you had bothered to read my post on Siri you would know I know exactly how it works and how Apple could actually make it better.

Why rag on just Apple for this? Have you seen Microsoft's product tiering? Windows is "just bytes" and yet they charge more for Pro, more still for Ultimate, they're all on the same disc. For their server versions, they even charge to enable the use of RAM beyond a certain amount, or to enable extra CPUs.
post #53 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

You're missing the entire point. The keyboard doesn't mean that it can only be used with the keyboard. What they're offering is a tablet that will try to compete with all the other tablets, but with an additional feature - the keyboard. So you can use it just like any other tablet (in the car, on the beach, in your lap), but when you want to do extensive typing, you add the keyboard and put it on a table.
If the tablet portion is any good, this concept could be successful. I've argued for a long time that there's a place for an 'iPad Pro' which amounts to the same thing as this - an iPad with optional keyboard or with a keyboard which folds back out of the way like the older HP slates.

Yes we know the keyboard is optional, but you wouldn't reckon that given the presentation and hype. I haven't seen any pictures of someone using the Surface with the screen keyboard. This is because they want to emphasise the cover-keyboard. If you're in the back seat of your car you can do a LOT of typing on a proper laptop. The Surface with its keyboard is not as useful as a proper laptop - for those who want a laptop so that it may be used where ther is no table.
post #54 of 82

I am at a loss...

 

What is the difference between a ploy and a strategy?

 

Part of me hopes that MS is wildly successful in this space.  Tighter integration between hardware and software can lead to a better product.  Score.

 

Unfortunately, I am also aware of the MS track record in this space.  Yes I know about the XBOX - but one hot day doesn't make a summer.  Plus, that whole team was insulated from the rest of the company - which pretty much means the HW thang is just twang...

post #55 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by otterfish View Post

 

...The beauty of a laptop/netbook/ultrabook screen is that you can adjust the angle to suit your head position and to suit the ambient light. Oh, and you can also balance it on your lap and type while you're sitting on the sofa. The best iPad cases I've used have graduations in their stands so you can adjust the angle but even then they're far from perfect. Microsoft will sell a few of these things as people will fall for the "well, it does more than an iPad" line until they realise that "more" does not mean "better"....

 

And they gave a demo of the kickstand to a bunch of tech guys that had laptops sitting on their laptops.  Maybe that is why there was no apparent applause when he showed it.  And no demo with it on his lap.  Now, who will come up with a special case so it all fits on your lap.  Engineering hint for those that want to develop it.....

post #56 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4phun View Post

Is it true these Microsoft tablets also have a cooling fan? Has anybody ever heard of any tablet having a cooling fan before now?

That would have to impact battery life compared to the iPad, wouldn't it?

 

Anyone?

 

 

I would not expect the Pro version to get the same battery life as the iPad.  Instead, I would expect it to be comparable to a laptop.  It  is running laptop-class guts.

 

The RT version will likely have long battery life, comparable to other tablets.

post #57 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by otterfish View Post

 

 

Yeah, that Siri. My point exactly.

 

There's no reason Siri couldn't be on the iPad 2 or the new iPad today (or the iPhone 4 for that matter)

 

 

Apple's data centers are unable to handle that level of use.  Once they get more data centers up and running, then they  will stop buckling under the load.  Then Apple can allow users to use SIRI.

 

It is not a matter of which devices can handle the software.  It is a matter of Apple having adequate servers. 

post #58 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by icoco3 View Post

And they gave a demo of the kickstand to a bunch of tech guys that had laptops sitting on their laptops.  Maybe that is why there was no apparent applause when he showed it.  And no demo with it on his lap.  Now, who will come up with a special case so it all fits on your lap.  Engineering hint for those that want to develop it.....

Those press guys all had Apple laptops as seen by the white logo on the screens.

FUNNY at a Microsoft Press Conference!

I wouldn't have applauded either as the presentation was an extremely painful attempt to imitate a genuine Apple event that would thrill the audience every few minutes.

I actually felt sorry for Balmer and his unprepared clueless assistants.


I also sort of feel sorry for the Apple retail employees who were poached by Microsoft for their new stores. If they had remained loyal to Apple they wouldn't have missed that huge raise and extra benefits just announced. I bet no Apple store will ever take them back after they choose to go to the Darkside with Lord Balmer.
post #59 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


You're missing the entire point. The keyboard doesn't mean that it can only be used with the keyboard. What they're offering is a tablet that will try to compete with all the other tablets, but with an additional feature - the keyboard. So you can use it just like any other tablet (in the car, on the beach, in your lap), but when you want to do extensive typing, you add the keyboard and put it on a table.
If the tablet portion is any good, this concept could be successful. I've argued for a long time that there's a place for an 'iPad Pro' which amounts to the same thing as this - an iPad with optional keyboard or with a keyboard which folds back out of the way like the older HP slates.


Jeez JR... you've been around these parts long enough to KNOW that there are some very nice cases already for the iPad that does just what you're asking.

 

http://www.amazon.com/MiniSuit-iPad-Aluminum-Bluetooth-Keyboard/dp/B005ISNC86/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1340376498&sr=8-4&keywords=ipad+keyboard+case - more stable even.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Kensington-KeyFolio-Removable-Keyboard-K39512US/dp/B005Y1CYSQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340376498&sr=8-1&keywords=ipad+keyboard+case - hideously ugly... but does the job you're askin'.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Targus-THZ084US-Versavu-Keyboard-Apple/dp/B005DEW4BQ/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1340376498&sr=8-8&keywords=ipad+keyboard+case - again... works.... also quite nice in Portrait mode.

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post #60 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

There are a few more problems to Surface Pro and a tablet or netbook:

 

1) security -- apparently, Microsoft will be delivering Windows 8 with all the security you need. Really? They're dumping on the huge security software guys too? How long will that last?

 

2) "if" MS security is not enough, what will be the added detractors when people start to install security suites on this device?

 

3) when the performance goes down hill... and possibly someone does experience the "odd" burnt hole in the screen or discolorization... where do they take it to to be fixed? Do they send it back in to Microsoft to be repaired? If so... how's their record on Customer Satisfaction, repairs, and warranty?

 

4) Do they have ANY experience or track-record when a device is user-configurable (as opposed to xbox), quote: "all your current programs will run on this in desktop mode".

 

5) when an install of say Adobe CS6 goes belly up... and doesn't work properly... what will be Microsoft's response? User error? Ask Adobe? Send it right in and we'll fix it?

 

Considering that a simple thing like a presentation was so botched, faked, and not very well thought out... can anyone trust Microsoft to have thought of those above points before taking on their OEMs?*

 

* I imagine an entire department of people responsible for the above answers at MS, already making appointments for therapy and stress-management... or actively searching for a new job!
 

1)  Microsoft has had Microsoft Security Essentials for free download for quite a while now.  It works well.  It will be baked into the OS.  If you install a 3rd party, it will be disabled.  The reasoning, upto 50% or more of consumers do not have any security software or have let it expired.  This causes slow down (blames on MS) or spread more viruses or makes them a botnet.

 

2)  See above... some companies want more finite control... they can instal their own.  MSE can be picky about keygens (used to steal software) so again a reason someone might install 3rd party.  Though KeyGens are notorius for including trojans, even on Mac.

 

3)  Sold exclusively at Microsoft Stores (Online as well)  So I assume return their for service.  MS had a very good repair process for the Xbox (which is now fixed in the slim version).  The problems were with PowerPC overheating... a reason Apple moved to x86.  Engineers told them to watercool, they didn't listen.  The surface will have predictable chips used in other tablets/ultraportables so it should be easier to engineer for their heat.

 

4)  Microsoft Stores currently offer support (aka Genius) to all products and sell support plans for products purchased there.  So yes they have started to gain experience with what other OEMs sell.

 

5)  Well they will help, just like Genius does and either further direct to Adobe if it is rightfully an Adobe problem.  If it is a tablet issue, repair.  If it is a Windows issue... send to software engineers for fix or apply update if exists.  This is no different than Apple.  Took them 2 years to fix the alu macbook trackpad drivers in Windows, I'm not complaing though as I got a free Airport Extreme out of it.

 

As much as you guys like to spin it.  This is good for Microsoft.  The #1 issue for Windows in the past 5 years has been crap hardware.  It is one of the reason I bought a Macbook even though I was sure I would primarily use Windows on it.  Sure the OEMs might be upset, but its their fault for making bad hardware that when the power supply goes for example, Microsoft of Windows gets blamed in the eyes of the consumer.

 

The overall engineering is good.  Now its just a wait and see on heat, durablity, support and I think #1 price.

 

As for the demo device crashing.  Prototype device (not finished) with Windows 8 beta (also not finished).  Again don't count them out, but don't count them in either.  We will see this fall.

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post #61 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by icoco3 View Post

 

And they gave a demo of the kickstand to a bunch of tech guys that had laptops sitting on their laptops.  Maybe that is why there was no apparent applause when he showed it.  And no demo with it on his lap.  Now, who will come up with a special case so it all fits on your lap.  Engineering hint for those that want to develop it.....I

I use my tablet (a cheap HP Touchpad) on my lap all the time with the case kickstand.   But with every device (and car) their is compromise.  As much as Apple would like the iPad to be a no compromise Tablet, there is no such thing.  There becomes a moment where you can't do something and have to move on to a Mac.  The Surface is less compromise (provide Metro actually works, and you get apps for it).  I'm glad I got the touchpad, as it was my first tablet and lets me easily understand the limitations.

 

I'll get the surface for two reasons.  #1 I do two things at time (okay 3).   I'll watch tv (or not) on the couch while using a laptop/tablet to browse the web and chat with friends.  With the touchpad or ipad I would have to constantly switch between apps.  Laptop/Ultrabook is bulky.  Metro allows me to use big part of screen for browsing and side screen for my chats.  Surface allows me to place on coffee tablet and bring out a keyboard (without having to plug something in, or turn on bluetooth and connect) if I need to do a long reply on a site, or a long reply chat.  Otherwise the on screen keyboard will suffice.

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post #62 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post

Surface Pro: $699. Because we're Microsoft dammit.  And because none of those Ultrabook weenies can hit the $699 price point.

Cue Acer, HP and Dell dropping the price of their ultrabooks to $699 on the Surface Pro release day.

post #63 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz View Post

I dunno. 

 

This whole Surface thing just seems a little bit strange to me. Ignoring the fact that the presentation was an almost word-for-word ripoff of the one Jobs gave a few years ago, it all seemed a little bit desperate. The Surface certainly didn't appear like a product that had been developed in secrecy for years; it was more like a spec-list cribbed from Apple rumours ('look it has a LIQUID METAL back', 'look the screen is just as good as Retina'). And if this thing had been in development for so long then why is it crashing on it's first demo? Why didn't they show it running any apps? Why were they reluctant to let anyone play with it? Why haven't the specs and the prices been nailed down yet?

 

I don't think this is a long-term hidden project. I think this is something that only came into being a few months ago. And I don't think Microsoft cares if they make money from it. This is Microsoft telling its lazy OEMs that this is the device they want them to build, and if they don't...


I have to LMAO at all the M$ fanboys on engadget, cnet, etc. now dissing all these PC OEM's as crap when before this vaporware announcement they were drooling over all these ultrabooks and how they were so much better than MacBook Air, and how the Transformer Prime and PadFone run circles around iPad.  Now these same clowns are saying M$ has to build a product to show all the OEM's how to do it properly. :lol:

post #64 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaarrrgggh View Post

There is a good write-up on Apple 2.0 about why people think the effort is real. 

 

I think the effort is very real. Microsoft has seen what has happened with Apple and their vertical integration especially with iOS and they have had seen what has happened with Android and some of the crappy hardware that is out there. Android is being blamed for the poor experience at times when it's the OEM tinkering and horrid hardware. I think that Microsoft really believes that they can do better than the OEMs with an integrated device. 

 

Now whether that is true remains to be seen. I won't call this a failure off the year one cause hey the original iPad wasn't that sexy looking either. And it was missing cameras etc. Perhaps Microsoft will pull this off enough to make it worth creating a version 2.0 that will be better. I don't think they will take the tablet market with either but they might put a dent in the netbook world with their Pro model and they might at least bring a few more folks into the notion of tablet form computing. I heard someone say that only perhaps 50% of the potential audience for any tablet device has actually bought in which is why things like the Fire could sell a few million and not put a dent in the rate of iPad sales. i.e. the rate of the market share held went down because the total market came up. These tablets could do the same. I know I have family members that think my iPad look really cool but they are die hard Windows users and they simply will not work with anything Mac. they would buy a Windows tablet if the price was right. And they would buy into the notion that hardware made together with the software simply has to be better than the alternative. 

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post #65 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by vigilant007 View Post

It kind of amuses me that the very best that Microsoft's internal development team can do for a new UI is a bunch of colored boxes with text in it. I am not sure why on earth anyone would think that a giant colored box is good UI but I am personally shocked at the stark laziness of the UI.

 

I maintain that when the developers got the instructions to create Metro the very first order was that it couldn't look anything like iOS in any way cause they didn't want to deal with any lawsuits. 

 

thus the boxes. 

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post #66 of 82
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Originally Posted by otterfish View Post

 

 

Yeah, that Siri. My point exactly.

 

There's no reason Siri couldn't be on the iPad 2 or the new iPad today (or the iPhone 4 for that matter) but instead Apple only makes the full release (remember the iOS 5 version is still a beta) available on certain hardware and only in the next iOS release.

 

Actually Siri can't be on the iPad 2, at least not effectively, because it lacks the appropriate microphone hardware which was put into the iPad 3 for dictation. Siri is still in beta so it actually makes sense not to knowingly over tax the system by adding a few million more users. 

 

And I believe that the real point of the previous comment was that Siri hasn't been in any tablets and there was no mention that it would be added later when the iPad 3 came out and yet they all sold in the millions without it. So to say that novelty features like Siri are how Apple is selling their tablets is false. 

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post #67 of 82
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Originally Posted by otterfish View Post

Oh, and maybe if you had bothered to read my post on Siri you would know I know exactly how it works and how Apple could actually make it better.

 

I have read that post and I saw nothing that shows that you KNOW EXACTLY anything about how Siri works or that you actually know how to improve it. instead you know that it is server based and you think it sucks. And what you wish it did and didn't do whether those opinions are universal or even feasible. 

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post #68 of 82
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Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

 

Yeah, because under Jobs this never happened, right? I can think of like 20 situations off the top of my head where it did, most more eggregious than Siri. Stop trying to twist reality to fit your narrative that the boat is sinking because Jobs is gone. Jobs was alive for 4 generations of iPhones, and there was a TON of people bitching during that time about features artificially limited to newer devices. This didn't start after his death, but I'm sure you knew that. There's not a shred of evidence to suggest Siri would be on the iPad 2 or iPhone 4 if Jobs was alive. An objective, reasonable person would realize that Apple's decision making, philosophy, attitude, and obsession with detail and excellence has remained remarkably consistent. 


If you keep adding the latest and greatest features to older devices #1 does it ruin the performance of the device and you're stuck with users b*itching about the experience or calling customer service with complaints?  And #2 how do you continue to sell new devices if current devices get all the features/functionality of new devices?

post #69 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz View Post

I dunno. 

 

This whole Surface thing just seems a little bit strange to me. Ignoring the fact that the presentation was an almost word-for-word ripoff of the one Jobs gave a few years ago,

 

My favorite part of that video is when it cuts from Jobs in his arm chair, cursing Safari to what's his name trying to do the same and his demo crashes. That moment sums it all up for me. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


If you keep adding the latest and greatest features to older devices #1 does it ruin the performance of the device and you're stuck with users b*itching about the experience or calling customer service with complaints?  

 

Sometimes yes, which is why Apple doesn't do it. Take Siri on the iPad. The 1st and 2nd generations don't have the added microphones and noise canceling of the 3rd Gen so using Siri would be a disaster unless you have an extremely clear voice and are in an area with zero noise. And how often is that true. Not to mention dumping that many users into a system that is already suffering server overload just makes that problem worse and diminishes the experience for everyone. Which Apple isn't going to do, it's not their style. Same with putting things like those 3d Flyover maps on phones and iPads with slower processes that will then freeze, crash etc. 

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post #70 of 82
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Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


You're missing the entire point. The keyboard doesn't mean that it can only be used with the keyboard. What they're offering is a tablet that will try to compete with all the other tablets, but with an additional feature - the keyboard. So you can use it just like any other tablet (in the car, on the beach, in your lap), but when you want to do extensive typing, you add the keyboard and put it on a table.

 

Sorry but you are the one that missed the point. It wasn't about whether the keyboard is required etc. It was that the lion's share of this presentation was about the accessories and things like the kickstand and that it was made with magnesium and not actually demoing the OS etc. They super brushed over that as if they were scared to try to show too much, particularly after the web browsing demo failed. 

 

And how much faith can you have in a product that wasn't really demo's. Compared to say the iPad presentation where they even went so far as to let 3 different 3rd party companies come up and live demo their new stuff and how awesome it works on the new hardware. Talk about the nifty bonus bits of the hardware and accessories was like 5 minutes tops out of the whole thing, not 60 of the 90 minutes which is what the Microsoft presentation felt like. Hell look at the video they did. It's all rocks and keyboard and kickstand etc. Compare that to the designer video which is all 'we did this so you get that' talk. And the ads which are all about what the users can do and get. Microsoft focused on features and not every useful ones while Apple focuses on the benefits because that's what consumers care about. 

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post #71 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

 

Sorry but you are the one that missed the point. It wasn't about whether the keyboard is required etc. It was that the lion's share of this presentation was about the accessories and things like the kickstand and that it was made with magnesium and not actually demoing the OS etc. They super brushed over that as if they were scared to try to show too much, particularly after the web browsing demo failed. 

 

And how much faith can you have in a product that wasn't really demo's. Compared to say the iPad presentation where they even went so far as to let 3 different 3rd party companies come up and live demo their new stuff and how awesome it works on the new hardware. Talk about the nifty bonus bits of the hardware and accessories was like 5 minutes tops out of the whole thing, not 60 of the 90 minutes which is what the Microsoft presentation felt like. Hell look at the video they did. It's all rocks and keyboard and kickstand etc. Compare that to the designer video which is all 'we did this so you get that' talk. And the ads which are all about what the users can do and get. Microsoft focused on features and not every useful ones while Apple focuses on the benefits because that's what consumers care about. 

 

Apple had to demo the software and hardware.  Everything about Windows 8 is available for you to demo on your own Mac or PC... there have been 3 beta released for download for free.  I don't need an app demo from a 3rd party, I can download Cut The Rope myself on my own computer and play around in my own time.

 

So this was 100% about hardware.  Yes they spent alot of time about the Touch Cover, as they would... very innovative if it works.  But they also spend time talking about optically bonded display, the new dual attenna WiFi that theoretically will allow better connections.  They talked about VaporMG and how thin it was, how thin the kickstand was etc...  This was an exclusive hardware event.  And while it did not 100% excel the iPad in specs, it does hold its own with its own innovations.

 

I hope its not a ploy, I hope Microsoft is just as serious about this as they were the original Xbox.  Because PC hardware can be very lackluster.  The software is great, which is why people continue to buy it.  But outside a few releases, most PC hardware is crap.  Acer usually being King of crap.  It is also why I owned a 2008 Macbook Alu even though I primarely use Windows.

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post #72 of 82

Above it was said that Microsoft has had problems with their hardware venders making bad hardware. That might be part of the story, but when I had Vista Basic and the Windows Media Player wouldn't play videos at all, that really pissed me off. The name "Media Player" should include video but it didn't. I used the HP media center but it was lousy. I learned about VLC from the HP tech support guy and have been happy ever since.

 

When spell check in Windows Mail didn't work guess what I had to do to get it working? The HP support person had me change the language from English to Spanish and save it. Then revert back to English. That was how to enable spell checking in English with Vista. First the support guy had me go through all of the regular fixes before someone on his end told him about how to fix it. It is for the reasons above and many other bits of crap I went through with Vista that has made me an enemy of Microsoft.

 

Microsoft is its own worst enemy because of the crap it has put out expecting the public to just take it and be happy with it. I don't know if the engineers for that company are happy working there and are in agreement with the products they put out or if they're sulking around wishing the company would change the architecture of the software to something better. Either way they make crappy OSs. I don't think that with MS in charge of hardware they will make up for their crappy software.
 

post #73 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post

Above it was said that Microsoft has had problems with their hardware venders making bad hardware. That might be part of the story, but when I had Vista Basic and the Windows Media Player wouldn't play videos at all, that really pissed me off. The name "Media Player" should include video but it didn't. I used the HP media center but it was lousy. I learned about VLC from the HP tech support guy and have been happy ever since.

 

When spell check in Windows Mail didn't work guess what I had to do to get it working? The HP support person had me change the language from English to Spanish and save it. Then revert back to English. That was how to enable spell checking in English with Vista. First the support guy had me go through all of the regular fixes before someone on his end told him about how to fix it. It is for the reasons above and many other bits of crap I went through with Vista that has made me an enemy of Microsoft.

 

Microsoft is its own worst enemy because of the crap it has put out expecting the public to just take it and be happy with it. I don't know if the engineers for that company are happy working there and are in agreement with the products they put out or if they're sulking around wishing the company would change the architecture of the software to something better. Either way they make crappy OSs. I don't think that with MS in charge of hardware they will make up for their crappy software.
 

Wow, never knew Vista Basic didn't play video.  You have to remember though that somebody invented all the media codecs and Microsoft has to pay them licensing fees.  As does Android, OS X etc...  They sold a cheaper version that was no frills.  You as a consumer obviously went and bought the cheapest crap you could find without doing your research.  Sorry.  I don't always agree with Microsoft and their editions (I usually stick to Pro or Ultimate).  But I can understant that there are plenty who don't use video, and just need to email, interent, and basic word processing.  Especially say in a school setting.

 

As for the spell check.  Legitimate issue.  But then nobody is perfect.  I have used practically all modern software from Blackberry, iOS, Android, WebOS, Windows Mobile, Windows Phone, Windows 3.1 to 7, and Mac OS X Tiger upto Mountain Lion.  I have found flaws in every OS I have used.  Probably the worst is WebOS, great looking software and great ideas but they took it out of the oven way too soon.  I use Android more on my Touchpad.  The biggest issue with Vista was bad drivers and bad hardware.  Vista was put on hardware it should not have been put on, there was even a lawsuit about this.  Microsoft was at fault, yes.  But OEMs even more so.  Consumers were also at fault for buying cheap rather than research.  I oddly had very few issues with Vista (I ran on several PCs), but the few I did have was on a piece of crap HP that I paid $1200 for, it was a tablet.  I worked well at first but the hardware caused alot of issues including the WiFi dying etc... I switched to Mac after that but ended up founding I ran Windows in Boot Camp more than OS X.

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post #74 of 82
Such a desire to copy the iPad's usability and versatility yet vendors still kept using a 16:9 display.

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post #75 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Such a desire to copy the iPad's usability and versatility yet vendors still kept using a 16:9 display.

LOL.  Microsoft and Bill Gates have been about portability for years, introducing tablets before the software was there.

 

For the record, you can use Windows 8 in either portrait and landscape.  Its one of the reason Microsoft requires and orientation toggle switch as one of the hardware requirements.

 

16:9 to me is ideal.  It allows split screen multitasking.  Two apps at a time is a big deal for me.  I chat often with friends while browsing the web.  In addition its better for games and movies.  I know alot of people want the iPhone to become 16:9 for those reasons.

 

Yes it is slight worse in portrait mode, but again everything is compromise.   The only things you might do that would be better in portrait is some websites and reading books.

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post #76 of 82

About the fan issue. My MBA fans never kick in, because it has an aluminum shell that is low heat.

 

 


Tim Cook using Galaxy Tabs as frisbees

 

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Tim Cook using Galaxy Tabs as frisbees

 

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post #77 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateKylie View Post

For the record, you can use Windows 8 in either portrait and landscape.

On the Surface? Did we even see it in portrait?
Quote:
16:9 to me is ideal.  It allows split screen multitasking.  Two apps at a time is a big deal for me.  I chat often with friends while browsing the web.  In addition its better for games and movies.  I know alot of people want the iPhone to become 16:9 for those reasons.

Those are terrible reasons.
post #78 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateKylie View Post

For the record, you can use Windows 8 in either portrait and landscape.
On the Surface? Did we even see it in portrait?
Quote:
16:9 to me is ideal.  It allows split screen multitasking.  Two apps at a time is a big deal for me.  I chat often with friends while browsing the web.  In addition its better for games and movies.  I know alot of people want the iPhone to become 16:9 for those reasons.
Those are terrible reasons.

 

Yes we have.  http://www.techradar.com/reviews/pc-mac/tablets/microsoft-surface-tablet-1085839/review#articleContent  Windows 8 has always supported portrait and requires a toggle switch to lock on all tablet hardware.  I don't expect Apple fanboys to follow this, but it is an easy Google/Bing.  But check the link above for a picture.

 

Yes, my reason are terrible.  My touchpad which is the same res as the original iPad has been used in portrait what like 10 times.  I use it in landscape primary because its best for browsing most sites (if you think that most computers are widescreen, it makes sense.  Even macs are widescreen), pretty much all games are in landscape, and movies look rediculous in portrait (thought not much better on the 4:3).  Just because your uses are different don't make my terrible.  Even magazines I use in landscape as I like to view two pages at a time like I would in a real magazine.  I think the iPad will be one of the few that has 4:3, and if thats what you want great.  But it doesn't make 16:9 terrible.  Practically all modern games, outside or Wii and iOS games are 16:9.

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post #79 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateKylie View Post  You as a consumer obviously went and bought the cheapest crap you could find without doing your research.

When I said videos I should have been more specific by saying DVDs. You're being kind of elitist by saying I should have done my research and that I bought the cheapest crap I could find. When a computer comes with a DVD player and the Microsoft "Windows Media Player" can't play media from a DVD then your argument is really lame.

 

From The Free Dictionary Dot Com:

Implied Warranty of Merchantability

Implied warranties come in two general types: merchantability and fitness. An implied warranty of merchantability is an unwritten and unspoken guarantee to the buyer that goods purchased conform to ordinary standards of care and that they are of the same average grade, quality, and value as similar goods sold under similar circumstances. In other words, merchantable goods are goods fit for the ordinary purposes for which they are to be used. The Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), adopted by most states, provides that courts may imply a Warranty of merchantability when (1) the seller is the merchant of such goods, and (2) the buyer uses the goods for the ordinary purposes for which such goods are sold (§ 2-314). Thus, a buyer can sue a seller for breaching the implied warranty by selling goods unfit for their ordinary purpose.

================

 

No matter what the price of a computer, if it comes with a DVD player and the operating system that is part of the price can't play a DVD, that is a problem.

post #80 of 82

There's no way I could consider this.

 

Windows 8 has been so bad for me. I've installed it 3 seperate times and each time it has been awful.

 

Even with the Release Preview, it's been incredibly buggy, messy, and unfitting for anything other than a 7" tablet.

 

But it was just what I needed to convince myself to buy my first Mac. A RMBP.

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