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PC makers hope Apple's iPad is delaying, not replacing notebook purchases - Page 4

post #121 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relefunt View Post

APPLE IS DOOM!

 

Just went to Best Buy and not a single Zune in sight! They are flying off the shelves!

 

Yup, into the trash bin.

post #122 of 152

Never have had the problems with Mac or OSX that you claim to be having. I switched to Mac from Windows 12 years ago, and have been happy every since. What did you do to the software or hardware? Are you running virus protection software, which I often suspect is causing more problems than it solves? 

post #123 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by daylove22 View Post

You are dreaming ..go to any information system department of any company and see if Windows is over..no one in the right mind will use Mac in the corporate world. Moreover, Mac os x is as buggy as Windows and gets viruses too btw. I love Apple but for complex applications you simply cannot use their software.

 

Please. The majority of office PCs are purchased to run Excel, Word, Powerpoint and Outlook in the cheapest way possible. It's not that they would never use a Mac, it's that the cheapest way to outfit every desktop with Microsoft Office is to buy HP or DELL PCs in bulk with a fat corporate discount applied.

 

You want to brag about 'complex applications'? How about all the 3D modeling, film editing, FX rendering, Photoshop and scientific workloads that Mac OS X powers every day?

 

No comeback, eh? Thought so.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #124 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

Logically, this explanation pretty much has to be either BS or wishful thinking.  

 

The current "global recession" is very slight compared to almost any other economic slowdown in the last 10 or 20 years.  If it's enough to make people hold off on computer purchases, why haven't any of the larger and more pronounced "recessions" had the same effect?  

 

It's much more likely that drawdown in laptop demand actually *is* a result of the realisation that most of what people use a laptop for can be done on a smartphone or a tablet.  The popularity of the netbook previous to the introduction of the new touch-based mobile devices is also a strong indicator of people wanting a different kind (smaller, lighter, cheaper, easier) of mobile experience than a laptop can provide, as is the current popularity of the so-called "ultrabook." 

 

In short, there is way more evidence for the more obvious explanation than there is for this wistful rumination.  

While I agree that the PC manufactures are grasping at straws, I disagree that the global recession is very slight.   Just look at the unemployment numbers which are even worse in many European countries than they are in the United States.     But perhaps more important, look at the under-employed numbers - people who are either working fewer hours than they used to or for less pay.

 

As successful as Apple has been over the last five years or so and as much as their stock price has jumped, I don't think they get enough credit for just how successful they were during the recession.   I've been an Apple supporter since the beginning of Apple, but even I thought they would crash during the recession, especially since they were perceived (rightly or wrongly) as being overpriced and elitist.

 

I do agree that people who don't use a PC for business and don't use intensive applications like CAD/CAM programs, Photoshop, Illustrator and who don't write long, complex Word document don't need a PC.     When I look over at what people are doing on the iPhones and iPads on the NYC subway, 90% of the time, they're playing a game - and usually a pretty simple game like a card game or Sudoku.   If people mainly consume content, write texts, check Facebook and the like, they certainly don't need a PC or a Mac.    Personally, I think iPads are impractical and efficient for business use  (aside from specialized apps on the road), but people really want them because they "look cool" and they're easy to carry.

 

But where I think Apple has benefited is that someone who has an iPhone or iPad is more likely to buy a Mac once they need one.   And Microsoft constantly shoots themselves (and PC makers) in the foot with their so-called "upgrades" to their OS.    Whenever Microsoft releases a new OS, I see the ads and I frequently think that it looks good and on some aspects, might have jumped ahead of Apple.    Then I use the thing and it's a freaking disaster.     I really despise Windows 7.       The other thing that hurts PC makers is that there are so many incredibly crappy low-end PCs out there.    They're certainly inexpensive, but I think many people are coming to the realization that they'd rather have a $500 iPad than a $400 Dell PC.   And I also think that for people who used their computers mainly for email is that as the e-book readers gain more functionality and contain apps such as email and Facebook, that they'll be pressure on the PCs from the low end.

 

The one place you'll always see lots of (cheap) PCs is in offices.   But because of the economy, I think businesses will attempt to keep their computers longer.   So I think the traditional PC market is going to be in trouble for the next few years, at least until the next major upgrade cycle by corporations.   

post #125 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcartesius View Post

I'm waiting for a 12-15 inch MacBook with touch screen. One day, maybe... No trackpad is as fast as directly pointed fingers anyway.

 

Got an iPad but went back to my MacBooks and bigger Macs rather fas

 

I don't think so.    Put your Mac on the table or your lap and raise your arm and emulate using the vertical (or close to vertical) screen as a touchpad.    I bet your arm is aching within 15 minutes.       It's fine for very occasional actions, but not for navigating all the time.    Keeping your arm in the there like that is very unnatural.   

post #126 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjwal View Post

 

Apparently we have similar needs.  I do find tho that a USB memory stick works as good or better than an optical disk so I don't need an optical drive.  If the iPad had a USB port it would probably get me to 80%(good enough to live with) of what I need for a portable computer.   

 

You mean the USB sticks that come  loaded with malware at the hardware level?  I don't use them anymore.  For anything.  You shouldn't either.

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post #127 of 152
No one has pointed out the extraordinary commercial adaptation of. IPads for business. Much of this is retail. From iPads for product info, to sales processing, order taking, and on and on. Not only is Apple's hardware functioning well, but it's software is making business adapt to new uses. Prime among this is FileMaker, an Apple owned company, that is taking off with database for business and coordinated Apps tied into the IPad and iPhone.

There is a revolution underway and it will build exponentially. Apple has planned for the future.
post #128 of 152
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Originally Posted by Wayne2612 View Post

oh i'm not a microsoft apologist either, i've done my fair share of ranting and raving about them too. i've just never understood the praise on apple, like they can do no wrong when they clearly can. like all companies, they have their faults.

Of course they do. But the experience for most Apple product users is much better than that for Windows users. I know a lot of people over the years who have switched. Many were the same people who would ride me for using macs years before. But once they switched, they all said that they should have done it years ago.

Apple's products are just better. You may have some strange experience. But that's not true for most people.
post #129 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post

If only it was that simple:

1. The iPad is nowhere near powerful enough to replace the Mac unless all you use it for is simple tasks. Maybe one day but not anytime soon.

2. Tim Cook said only a few weeks ago at the AllThingsD conference that Apple had no plans to merge OSX and iOS or replace OSX with iOS.

As I said the Windows/Mac battle is over. They have reached a status quo that satisfies both parties.

Apple has re-invented itself and built a new OS for a new mobile world. That is the battle now. Looking backwards to the Windows battle would be a big mistake

Essentially Apple is now a mobile phone & consumer entertainment devices company that also make computers. Sorry if that hurts but it's the truth.

As usual, you're talking out of your ears. While no one is trying to say that a tablet, and tablet, including the not yet availablet Surface Pro, can run really big programs the way a desktop of powerful notebook can(though Microsoft is pretending the Pro can), that's really besides the point.

There are enough heavy duty business apps available from major companies that businesses are using with iPads, which is why, despite your lack of understanding this, are moving into business in a big way. A very big way. Replacing notebooks in a lot of places.

The problem you have is that your understanding of what is done in business is severely lacking. Most businesses use istn't much more challenging than what most p,dope do with their computers. And the iPad is ideally suited for much of what business does.

In addition, I use a CAD app that works very well with standard CAD files. Is it as full fledged as my programs on my Mac Pro? No. But it doesn't have to be. The same thing is true for many other apps.

But you're also missing the entire concept behind computing, which is that it gets better as time goes on. The new iPad is much better than the first iPad, and the one next year will be better still, and on and on. My new one is more powerful than computers we were using for complex tasks just a few years ago. And that will continue. With AirPlay I can use the graphics on a large monitor, and, of course, I can use a keyboard, if I need to.

You seem to want to limit this device, though it isn't nearly as limited as you want to think it is.
post #130 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Please. The majority of office PCs are purchased to run Excel, Word, Powerpoint and Outlook in the cheapest way possible. It's not that they would never use a Mac, it's that the cheapest way to outfit every desktop with Microsoft Office is to buy HP or DELL PCs in bulk with a fat corporate discount applied.
and this makes me wonder why anyone would think the Windows 8 Surface tablet will be a hit in the enterprise. Just the other day I read an article (I think it was in WSJ or Barrons) about CIO's not warming to Ultrabooks because they're to expensive. And the WSJ just had a story on CIO's adopting BYOD policies where instead of purchasing phones and tablets for ther employees thy let them use their own stuff and connect to the company network. Where I work I'm testing work related stuff on my personal iPad. And the company has no intentions of buying me an iPad for work. The company HP laptop I have is certainly cheaper $$ than the Windows 8 tablet will be.
post #131 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

sure, when a custom tablet app can do the job for work in the field, it's better. but don't be so fast to brush off all the traditional office work. millions of people still do that too. you seem to have missed my initial sentence:  it is all about using the right tool for the job/situation.

I'm not brushing off the fact that it's the right tool for the right application. That exactly what I've been saying. But you are the one who's brushing the iPad off. Totally. I read your post, perhaps you should read it as well.
post #132 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newera View Post

No one has pointed out the extraordinary commercial adaptation of. IPads for business. Much of this is retail. From iPads for product info, to sales processing, order taking, and on and on. Not only is Apple's hardware functioning well, but it's software is making business adapt to new uses. Prime among this is FileMaker, an Apple owned company, that is taking off with database for business and coordinated Apps tied into the IPad and iPhone.
There is a revolution underway and it will build exponentially. Apple has planned for the future.

And that revolution is maximum portable computing. It will be bigger than the first desktop computer revolution by far, because it will reach more people more places more minutes of the day and night. It changes everything and there's no going back.

Any portable computer that doesn't support this shift with ease of use, light weight and long battery life will be ignored. The desktop machines of the future, besides doing their usual heavy lifting, have to integrate seamlessly with the portable world software-wise as an absolute first requirement. The desktop now exists partially to serve the connected-everywhere portable computer, whether it's a pocket, pad or lap computer.

Apple has planned for this future, as you say, by inventing it. They saw it because they always stood for maximum personal usefulness, from the beginning. It seems that was the mission that Jobs kept going back to after experimenting with business machines like NeXT or software adventures like Pixar.
post #133 of 152
People seem to think the laptop and desktop aren't going anywhere anytime soon. However, I think these people are holding onto this concept because they think the whole tablet (post PC) era is most likely a phase and that the "trucks" aren't going anywhere. However, every new generation of iPad is faster and better than the last. Even the "live-and-die-by-the-spec-sheet" Android and Win7 tablet OEMs have tablets that rival net books and some laptops (lacking solid UI/UX though). Apple is moving away from mechanical parts to "always on/instant on" solid state technology. This allows them to design thinner laptops and devices. Thus...

I think eventually all Apple laptops will become larger versions of iPads. All iMacs will eventually look much like they do now, but much thinner with a touch screen that will be adjustable like a painter's easel or a drafting table. Something that pivots on a fulcrum. I can see them making these very elegant machines that will fit very nicely in the studios of the various creative industries as well as any other industry. Mice will be replaced by fingers/capacitive stylii (sp?) but keyboards will still exist in a hardware form along with a software form.

Regardless of whether we like it or not, Apple is merging OSX and iOS so that the two systems talk to each other better as one ecosystem. I think eventually one will become the other and I for one will embrace the simplicity. I know a lot of people scoff at the idea of iOS taking over but think about it: If each app has its own file directory and the files for said app get saved there, we won't need massive organizational systems to find our files. We'll just simply open those files in said app and edit them however we need to. From the apps we can then save them to emails or put them in the camera roll or convert them to PDFs or whathaveyou. I just have a feeling that OSX isn't going to be around very much longer. At least not how we know it presently.

That said, everyone looks to Apple to set the trends (whether they admit it or not) and if what I say above does in fact happen, then yes, PCs as we know them now are dead meat.

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post #134 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


As usual, you're talking out of your ears. While no one is trying to say that a tablet, and tablet, including the not yet availablet Surface Pro, can run really big programs the way a desktop of powerful notebook can(though Microsoft is pretending the Pro can), that's really besides the point.
There are enough heavy duty business apps available from major companies that businesses are using with iPads, which is why, despite your lack of understanding this, are moving into business in a big way. A very big way. Replacing notebooks in a lot of places.
The problem you have is that your understanding of what is done in business is severely lacking. Most businesses use istn't much more challenging than what most p,dope do with their computers. And the iPad is ideally suited for much of what business does.
In addition, I use a CAD app that works very well with standard CAD files. Is it as full fledged as my programs on my Mac Pro? No. But it doesn't have to be. The same thing is true for many other apps.
But you're also missing the entire concept behind computing, which is that it gets better as time goes on. The new iPad is much better than the first iPad, and the one next year will be better still, and on and on. My new one is more powerful than computers we were using for complex tasks just a few years ago. And that will continue. With AirPlay I can use the graphics on a large monitor, and, of course, I can use a keyboard, if I need to.
You seem to want to limit this device, though it isn't nearly as limited as you want to think it is.

 

Name ONE business anywhere in the world that has replaced all their laptops with iPads. I bet you can't.

post #135 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmelapple View Post

Apple is merging OSX and iOS so that the two systems talk to each other better as one ecosystem. I think eventually one will become the other and I for one will embrace the simplicity. I know a lot of people scoff at the idea of iOS taking over but think about it.

 

Tim Cook said only a few weeks ago that Apple was not going to merge OSX and iOS because they see the Mac and iPad as 2 separate devices with different uses.

 

He said that Microsoft's attempt to have one uniform OS across all their devices was the wrong thing to do.

post #136 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post

Tim Cook said only a few weeks ago that Apple was not going to merge OSX and iOS because they see the Mac and iPad as 2 separate devices with different uses.

He said that Microsoft's attempt to have one uniform OS across all their devices was the wrong thing to do.

Where? When? He was lying, you know. Yes, there will never be one single OS installable across all devices, but in five years you'll be using your desktop the same way you use your laptop.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #137 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post

 

Tim Cook said only a few weeks ago that Apple was not going to merge OSX and iOS because they see the Mac and iPad as 2 separate devices with different uses.

 

He said that Microsoft's attempt to have one uniform OS across all their devices was the wrong thing to do.

Right, and wasn't it Jobs who supposedly made a comment about the usefulness of tablets only being good for browsing the web while on the can? Or in 2003 claiming to have no plans at all to make a tablet device?

 

In other words: Don't believe everything you hear anyone at Apple say. It might just be a bit of sneaky misdirection.

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post #138 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


Where? When? He was lying, you know. Yes, there will never be one single OS installable across all devices, but in five years you'll be using your desktop the same way you use your laptop.

 

I've no idea what you're talking about, I already use my laptop in the same way I use my desktop - they have the same OS, the same software, etc, etc.

post #139 of 152
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Originally Posted by JerrySwitched26 View Post

 

 

Can you give a few examples of the lost functionality?  

In XP, I had my my most-used apps set up with one-key shortcuts in the Start Menu.  Windows Key + X would launch Excel, Windows Key + W would launch Word, etc.  In Windows 7 it begins to search for apps.

I am responsible for editing training documents.  I would store these documents in different folders, based on their status.  In Windows 7, the Copy To and Move To functions were removed.  There is also no way to go UP a level in the directory structure. 

post #140 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post

I've no idea what you're talking about, I already use my laptop in the same way I use my desktop - they have the same OS, the same software, etc, etc.

Bah, said laptop. Tablet.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #141 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galley View Post

In XP, I had my my most-used apps set up with one-key shortcuts in the Start Menu.  Windows Key + X would launch Excel, Windows Key + W would launch Word, etc.  In Windows 7 it begins to search for apps.

I am responsible for editing training documents.  I would store these documents in different folders, based on their status.  In Windows 7, the Copy To and Move To functions were removed.  There is also no way to go UP a level in the directory structure. 

Gotcha.  I never used the Windows  Key except WK+M to minimize all open windows.

 

The "no way to go UP in a directory" bugs me too.  I always thought I  just didn't know  how, or whatever, but I'll take your word for it that the functionality is just simply missing.

 

I once bought a Windows Annoyances book when I used  XP, which  had a bunch of ways to fix the annoying shit in Windows.  There may be one of Win7, and it might address some of the things you dislike.

 

One workaround for you would be to put the often-used apps into the task bar.  Then you could launch them with one click.  However, there is not room for 26 icons there, so if you used all the letters of the alphabet, that would not be a complete solution.  Currently, I have 9 icons there for the programs I use most, and it works OK for me.  Less used programs reside in the Start Menu, and are available in two clicks.  Lesser used programs are in the morass at the bottom - the shitty "All Programs" section.

 

Here's the Windows 7 Annoyances book:  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596157622/ref=nosim/view0-20

post #142 of 152

The PC industry's problem is the failure to recognize that the "kit" era is over.  When I look at most PCs, I don't see a modern computer.  I see the 1975 Altair 8800: you can expand and customize it however you like, but that's not what people want.  They never did.  Most people want to take their technology for granted and let it blend into the background of their lives--like television or telephone.  Only enthusiasts like to tinker with things.  For this reason, new processors and new operating systems do very little to draw the attention of the non-enthusiast.
 

Apple products, in my opinion, tend to be more appliance-like and less prone to be tinkered with.  And what new features excite users the most?  Not software.  When there’s a new iPad or iPhone in the pipeline, what most people get excited over is what it will look like—what kind of form it will take.  The same is true in the auto industry.  Most car owners have no idea how many horsepower their engine develops.  All they know is their car looks great in black.
 

post #143 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galley View Post
....There is also no way to go UP a level in the directory structure. 

 

Yes there is. Just click on the name of the parent folder in the address bar...

post #144 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post

 

Name ONE business anywhere in the world that has replaced all their laptops with iPads. I bet you can't.

 

Maybe not....but I do know a bunch of individuals that replaced their laptop with an iPad.  Many people get iPad's to complement their laptop/desktop as an iPad is A LOT easier to use on the go for the simple things people want to do like Facebook, web browsing, Twitter, reading, games, email, messaging, the list is endless.  The iPad is changing how people do things and it will be a number of years for it all the shake out.  We are witnessing a new era of computer use and mobile computing is playing a major part of that.

 

These are truly fun times we are living it and it has been a long time since a major change in how computing is done has come along.  Apple produced the device and the people are figuring out what to do with it.  That mirrors Steve Jobs closing words in the initial iPad launch presentation.

post #145 of 152

PC makers are correct ...the iPad is delaying purchases of Apple notebooks.  What's a PC maker to do?
 

post #146 of 152

A bit wrong there bucko.   Not entirely because there is a bit of internal Apple cannibalization, but there is A LOT of external PC laptop/netbook sales lost to the iPad.  

 

What happend to netbooks?  They were going to rule the low cost computing world?   Well iPad happened to them, doing the specific task better.  Now that market is all but dead.  

 

Why is Apple's market share and numbers of laptops sold going up much faster than market growth rates while the PC industries are flat to barely growing?  Apple laptops are flying off shelves and delivery trucks.  Yeah, a little cannibalization of a beast growing at an unprecedented rate, for a new market segment castrating a significant part of the old market.

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post #147 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galley View Post

I got a new work PC last week with Windows 7. It seems to actually have less functionality than XP.

I don't think it's the case, but if you're not used to it, it can be very hard to get your bearings.

Windows 8 seems to try make it very hard to get to the control panel though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

People talk about consumers and office workers as if they are two different types of people. Most consumers are office workers or college students who use computers. At home they may only buy a new computer every 10 years, but at work they still need a computer every couple years. Even though they may have an iPad they probably need a computer at home too for the kids to do their homework. Although you can use an iPad without a computer it works better if you sync it up. Depends on how much media content you have, but the point is, I see most iPad owners as still needing a computer. Many are choosing Mac at home even if they use Windows at work.

I don't think it's necessary to replace computers every two years. Every four seems extravagant for most users. I've heard of one company replacing computers because the manufacturer support for the machines run out at three or four years, but I don't know what to make of that. It's not like a computer quits working a month after the four years is up. Seems like an IT dept should be able to manage that.
post #148 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post

Name ONE business anywhere in the world that has replaced all their laptops with iPads. I bet you can't.

All of their laptops? Well, now you're stretching. No one said they would be replacing ALL their laptops. But a number of companies have replaced a large number, even a majority. That would be SAP, Halliburton, Department of Tobacco and Firearms, Bank of America, and lots of others.

Considering how long it took for laptops to be considered a real business tool (over ten years), the rush to use iPads has been an amazing thing.

You, and others can pretend to yourselves that it isn't happening, but it surely is. That's why Microsoft is so desperate to get into this business, successfully, something they haven't been able to yet.
post #149 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by axual View Post

PC makers are correct ...the iPad is delaying purchases of Apple notebooks.  What's a PC maker to do?

 

Actually, not so much app,e notebooks, those sales are strong. It's the faltering sales of Windows machines that PC makers are so concerned about.

For the first time, including the recession, Microsoft has seen sales of Windows drop.
post #150 of 152

You sure can't tell from the pricing of the "Utrabooks" that they're worried. 

post #151 of 152

No you can't.  But that's because they cannot figure out how to reduce manufacturing costs enough.  Ultrabook manufacturers are content with razor thin margins, but not loss of $200 per unit sold.  Lowering prices is a choice that cannot take until they get manufacturing costs down somehow.  Quite literally Tim Cook priced them out of their own market, before it even existed.

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post #152 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancelot9201 View Post

You sure can't tell from the pricing of the "Utrabooks" that they're worried. 

Sure they're worried. First the tried to force Intel to drop the price of the cpu's and chipsets aimed at Ultrabooks by half, but Intel refused. But they relented by creati g a $300 million fund to help those manufacturers do R&D for their products. Then, even though Intel spec'ed metal cases, they found they cost too much, or weren't able to get them made because Apple had most of the manufacturing tied up. Still, even with cheaper case materials, they couldn't get the prices down with computers that were similarly spec'ed to Apple's.

Then there is the price of materials in general, where appe gets better pricing because of volume pricing, such ad NAND for flash memory and SSD's. They even have to pay more for screens than Apple does.

So right now, they're screwed. Ultrabook sales are poor right now. It's being said that in order for these manufacturers to do well with them, they have to price a similarly spec'ed machine at $200 less. That's not happening so far.
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