Nest Learning Thermostat reportedly taken off Apple Store shelves - Page 5

I just knew there was a reason that my 5 year old Mac Pro running 24 hrs a day doing video was no good. It was just made so lousy!

No, it's not. Not even close.

Swamp cooler technology doesn't use coils at all - and it would certainly not be used in a data center since it adds too much moisture to the air. Data centers have traditional air conditioning systems, but sometimes cool the coils with water rather than air because of the greater heat transfer efficiency.

Swamp coolers are completely unrelated. They are boxes placed on your roof which have pads that are sprayed continuously with water. A big fan pulls outside air through the pads and the water evaporates, cooling the air which is then pushed into the house. It's pure evaporative cooling.

But feel free to show a data center which uses that technology.

Hey Kasper.

 

I broke this story last week on http://www . infiniteloopmobile . com. How about some link love buddy?

 

http://www . infiniteloopmobile . com/2012/06/ apple-pulls-nest-thermostat-from-brick-and-mortar-stores-mysteries/

 

David

 

(break up links to edit out possible link spam)

 

Say what? More than 50 years ago it was well known that there were possible plastic-related health issues, depending on the plastic, environment, exposure levels, etc etc etc. An elementary-school student could easily find information about this sort of thing in the open literature if one were so inclined to look for it. I know I did.

Ummm.

 

WiFi is two-way communication. Everything in the local net is transmitting and receiving.

Correct. Even if the data seems to only flow in one direction, signaling goes both directions.

But I don't think it matters for health concerns. I don't think the fears are well-grounded in reality. The reports seem mixed at best, and there's nothing shown that this low of a power can harm. To break molecular bonds (for mutations) requires much higher energies/frequencies. And it's not enough power to heat people up noticeably.

Dude, I think the problem some people are having is that you are assuming everyone lives in a climate like you where temperatures are fairly stable.

 

Try living in where I live (in Canada) where it can routinely get up to 40 degrees C (105 F) in the summer or -40 degrees C (-40 F) in the winter. Day to day you can have temperature swings of like 20-30 degrees C outside. Not saying I need a Nest to mange the indoor climate, but for 250 bucks it does a lot of work.

Did you conveniently ignore this line?:
"I my case, as stated earlier, my house is so well insulated and airtight I really don't need heat or A/C except on rare occasion"

You'd be surprised how much of a difference proper insulation and sealing can do.

Press release announcing adoption of Nest by Reliant Energy.  Seems someone thinks Nest is a good idea.

 

I like that you're just as ignorant as the original poster. Show me where in popular modern lexicon that Draconian is used to mean death for every offense. Everywhere it is used in modern lexicon is for the second definition on that page, not the first. The word has more than one meaning you moron. You obviously skipped over the parts of that page that didn't fit your argument like the last idiot.

or, more likely, a profitable idea.

Well after all, it is a manufactured product for sale.  It's kind of a given that there is profit to be made.

 

Interestingly power companies these days want people to use less power and are looking for simple cost effective ways to to that.  Apparently even at $250 (or what ever the wholesale price is) Reliant feels it will help customers conserve.  if that works for Reliant then it probably works for those of us who buy it on our own.  

Could it be related to the honeywell lawsuit?

My Nest works fine - it's awesome!

You do realize it's targeted at home users, not people living in commercial buildings with commercial HVAC systems? How many thermostats at Lowes or Home Depot can you use?

Er, the limited initial availability is because initial demand overwhelmed their supply. Since they are in Lowes and on Amazon, I doubt they are limiting supply to "keep complaints out of the public eye"

Wow, I thought the wifi radiation guy was a nutter.... Mine works fine with my traditional natural gas/air conditioning system as well as my heatpump system on my second floor. For as hacked up and undocumented as HVAC wiring can be, I'm surprised there aren't MORE people complaining about NEST. The biggest complaints are from people who don't have 24V power to their thermostat. Luckily for me there were extra unused wires and it was relatively easy to get 24V to my thermostat locations. NEST does have a battery and it will charge when the fan runs to try to compensate for not having constant power. I applaud them for trying to be accommodating, but it doesn't work with every system and if you are in a really temperate climate where your system doesn't run enough I could see the battery never getting charged.

Again, I'm astonished there aren't MORE complaints about them....

The only "bugs" are in getting it working. If you aren't the least bit mechanically or electrically inclined, don't be a cheapskate - spring for the concierge installation service and you won't have any issues.

99% of the problems I see people complain about are installation related. Heck, I had some issues with mine - mainly getting power up to it and figuring out that the original installer of my HVAC system was an idiot and didn't follow industry standard color code conventions. Once I corrected the wiring errors, activated power on an unused wire, the Nest installed easily and has worked flawlessly for four months now.

Actually, better than flawlessly. It's prompted me to pay attention to the way I use my HVAC system and I've saved money. If I keep up with my current pace, the feed back it provides will probably get me a payback in less than a year. Because it's trivial to change the thermostat from my iPhone, I've been more aggressive about setting back and it adds up quickly!

And the iPhone is just another smartphone.

It's not just a programmable thermostat, but a learning thermostat that has drop-dead simple Internet integration. That combo makes a HUGE difference. And yes, I am well on track for it repaying itself within a year. It replaced a seven day programable thermostat - but with the Nest I'm able to be far more aggressive than I ever was with that, mainly because of the iPhone access. I can turn it down remotely if I forget. And I know I can turn it on when I start to head for home, so I am far more aggressive in setting it back. Plus it gives you feedback on how you are doing. They took it to the next level with their recent energy report that helps keep my attention and focused on maximizing savings. I can see when I am doing well and when I'm not.

And unlike the games on my iPhone, this game keeps real money in my pocket if I "win".

So stay hung up on the initial price and don't consider total cost of ownership over the long haul - your loss. Of $$$ that is....

And it just doesn't blindly do it, either. If the humidity in your home is high and that would cause unhealthy humidity levels, the AirWave feature automatically cuts out.

It's that Apple-like attention to detail that sets Nest apart from any other thermostat or thermostat manufacturer.

If Honeywell had the least bit of shame or pride they would be embarrassed that they have sat on their collective asses and essentially milked the thermostat market for as long as they have with damn little to show for it while having the gall to patent troll Nest...

Yup - those with erratic schedules like me (I work from home on a non-consistent schedule) will probably see the greatest savings since the Nest is self-adapting to occupancy. And as for the derisive comments about price, after hearing for decades about the "Apple Tax" is it really that surprising that there are people who are too ignorant to look past the initial cost of an item and instead factor in the total cost of ownership of an item?
Edited by DocNo42 - 6/27/12 at 8:20pm

Yup - but they still can come out with it. I've already asked The thing is upgradeable - it's already been upgraded at least once. The new airwave functionality works really, really well!

Actually that's not true. My schedule is erratic, but it still knows when I am not home and will set back automatically if I forget to. Sure, I still tweak it manually - but not as much as I thought I would due to my also having a pretty erratic schedule. Perhaps you just needed to give it some more time? If it gets it wrong, you can easily correct it and if it gets it wrong in that you aren't home, it will pick up on that within an hour or so. Similar to Tivo suggestions, I don't know why anyone would ever turn it off since there is very little downside to leaving it on, even if it's not able to get it perfect.

Says the person who has never owned or used one for an extended period of time. Right!

Huh? I would think with each additional person screwing with the thermostat in a home, the likelihood of it having your system operational when you are not home would proportionally increase. At least with the occupancy sensor, Nest will correct for that and turn off automatically. That alone could generate enough savings to easily have it pay for itself within a couple of years easily. The self-correcting nature of it is what has saved the most energy for me!

Well interestingly enough you can also turn the Nest off. But if you use your system that little then the payback probably doesn't make sense. But most of the US is not that temperate so the savings are much more significant.

So you would rather air condition the outdoors than know there is an issue?

Which is probably why they didn't launch with support for that. But caveats aside, I'd still like it since such details matter to me and it's not that much of a burden to ensure I'm being efficient, especially when the more extreme the weather the greater the savings. I have an alarm system that's on my home network so integration with Nest would be possible if they ever decided to support it.

That's one way to look at it. I would think it would be pretty easy to hit a temporary override (in case you forget to close the window) but hey - were rich Americans - what's the big deal trading some convenience for efficiency?

Hmm - must be nice to have unlimited funds. For me, much of my "living" requires money - which Nest is very, very good at saving with minimal effort on my part.

All these comments implying that Nest introduces complexity are hilarious - because if you actually owned and used one you would find it's just the opposite. If anything I think less about my thermostat than I did before, and I'm easily using 40% less energy so far. When I am thinking about my thermostat it's far more effective - like when I head for home. In literally 20 seconds I can launch the app and adjust it so that my house will be perfect when I get home. When I do look at thermostat the little leaf icon serves to remind me to be conscious in how I set it. I figured it would mainly be a gimmick - but it's amazing at how effective it is in getting me to be positive in how I use my HVAC system.

Which is by far and away the biggest consumer of energy in my home. Over 60% of power in the typical home goes for HVAC - really, it's a no brainer if you can get yourself to look beyond the trivial....

LOL - no, a big box with pad drenched in water and a big blower that draws air across them and pushes the cooled air into your house. Evaporation causes cooling. When I was growing up in Southern Nevada, the arid climate made them VERY effective. Could freeze you out, actually. Sadly as more people moved into the area and then with the proliferations of lawns and golf courses the local humidity rose to the level where they weren't very effective any longer. Still better than nothing in a hot garage in 100+ degree heat though.

I wish they would work in Virginia but with the humidity here I think all they would do is grow mold and push even more water-saturated air around :P

Really? Did I miss an update where they turned that on? I have a Zwave (zigbee/schlage link/etc.) enabled home automation system and would love to integrate the Nest into it. I know it has the zwave radio in it, but I hadn't seen any use of it yet. Shoot, will have to go cruise their web site....

Sigh. if you do nothing other than install it, it *will* be more efficient than the best programmed thermostat - because it will know, unlike a "properly programmed" thermostat when you have deviated from the schedule.

Unless you have a perfectly rigid and utterly predictable life. Then I bid you good day. But I would also point out you would be in a minority of a minority.... most people have far more dynamic lives. For some reason you seem to think the more chaotic, the less useful the Nest is when it's exactly the opposite!

Sigh... again, people who are less likely to attempt to program the one they already own ARE EXACTLY WHO NEST IS TARGETING with the thermostat that DOESN'T REQUIRE YOU TO DO ANYTHING OTHER THAN INSTALL IT.

Go watch the cnet video that was linked on, I believe page two. That schedule she showed HAPPENED AUTOMATICALLY. Listen to her carefully. She actually complained it hadn't learned her families morning habits yet. So at that point you can tap on that very screen she showed to update the programming to be more accurate for your family. Which is touch simple to do, unlike the vast majority of thermostats that have user interfaces that are absolutely horrid.

That's the other hard to quantify benefit - the ability to set, change and update the schedule is so much more easy that even if you do decide to manually do it (like I did initially to get it jump started) people are going to be far more likely to not only attempt it but to succeed at it.

Improving success, making me more comfortable overall and saving me seriously money are hardly "adding complexity"

Is your common wire hot? Is it supplying power? Or is your Nest relying on it's battery and charging when your system is running?

I ask because I came home earlier this season and compressor for my upstairs unit was on and completely frozen solid (the inside and outside coils, as well as the lines) when the rest of the system and thermostat indicated it should be off. I started all kinds of testing, troubleshooting and couldn't find an issue - called up a friend who's an HVAC tech and before I finished explaining the problem he asked if I changed the batteries in my thermostat. I was a little taken aback, he insisted, I changed the batteries and the system started working perfectly (once I left it off for several hours to let the inside coils thaw out).

And this wasn't a Nest - just to clarify.

Any product can fail. What's more interesting to me is - what kind of support will I get if the inevitable happens?

If you don't know for sure if your system is supplying power (typically over the C wire) that's where I would start. I if you do have a C wire, get a test and make sure the 12/24 V is there. If so, then you probably got a bum unit or it's programmed wrong. I have no doubt Nest will swap it out or refund if you desire. Or if troubleshooting is over your head, take advantage of their concierge installation service.

Unfortunately many systems are simply installed wrong, or the wiring was done wrong. Once straightened out, none of my friends with Nest's have had issues. But getting them installed and debugged with the often half-assed way systems are installed and wired is the real challenge... Unfortunately there are lots of hamburger installers out there who are either lazy, ignorant or worse.
Edited by DocNo42 - 6/27/12 at 8:25pm

Actually, there are hybrid systems that use a desiccant to remove the humidity from the cooled air. The desiccant is boiled to "dry" it so it can be re-used to pull more moisture out of the cooled air. It's not as efficient as pure evaporative cooling, but it's still far more efficient than traditional air conditioning.

Here's a link for you

http://www.earthtechling.com/2010/06/government-lab-creates-super-efficient-ac-for-all-climates/

Personally I want a natural gas HVAC/Heat pump (especially after the electric bills I am sure to get this summer!): http://www.lvrj.com/special_sections/greenliving/43561872.html The biggest problem is finding a qualified installer - or even one willing to touch one of these since they are so rare in the US.

Similar to how in Europe and Asia mini-split systems were common and are just now starting to be popular in the US.

Nope - if he even remotely understood scientific principles such as the inverse square law, he'd be far less bombastic in his claims...

Yes - it can make a huge difference. I'm in a new and well sealed house. But it's still large, and even though I live in a fairly moderate climate I still have a $150 or so a month power bill. A 20% swing for a year is more than enough to get a fairly quick payback. If that's not an issue for you and that your in the minority then why are you even stirring the pot?

Because most american power infrastructure is undersized, over capacity and at a point where it's far more cost effective to conserve rather than upgrade.

Hey! Once again, it's no fair using logic in a forum thread

One of the other things likely attractive to Reliant is the Nest's ability to interface with the Zigbee standard for smart energy monitoring.  That means smart thermostats and smart meters measuring energy usage at homes and businesses.  This will allow Reliant to better model energy consumption trends and better anticipate problems going forward.  And better technology will help all of us use less of that energy overall.  Nest is certainly not the only Zigbee capable thermostat but with more units of its kind out there in the field, power companies have more incentive to replace old power meters with new ones that tell them far more information than they get now.

 

Commercial buildings and commercial HVAC systems? What the hell are you harping about? I live in a condo. That's residential. Every unit has an off the shelf Trane thermostat installed. Nest's documentation is crystal clear about the types of systems they do not officially support and nothing in that documentation suggests that I should have an issue. Nest's support reps also had ample opportunity to mention any compatibility issues during the couple hours we were on the phone troubleshooting.

 

Not knocking the Nest folks. They have a great product and great service - just isn't as broadly compatible as they think or claim it is.

19 posts in a row? That has to be a worldwide record.

You talked me into it. I bought one yesterday. It was easy to install and it works great and looks good.

Love to read your thoughts, and month-to-month and year-over-year monthly results as it learns your home and habits.

Planning on buying two Nests - up and down. But my family and I are home 90% of the time except when we are not. Usually an impromptu dinner or outing gets us all out. Or we travel for a couple weeks.

 

How well does Nest handle a schedule when we are home 90% and not leaving? We are in Texas now - moving to Colorado soon.

That's probably Nest's greatest feature. With the motion/occupancy sensor, Nest adjusts to your life. The only catch might be if your thermostat is in an awkward place. My downstairs thermostat was in a narrow hallway pointing at my basement door. Not a big deal for a traditional thermostat, but less than ideal for the Nest. Since it was pretty easy for me to move it, I did just that. It's now more prominently mounted in my living room - and due to it's great looks, I didn't mind moving it at all. Chances are it will work just fine wherever your existing thermostat is.

Just stumbled across this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5thQRIX3Rio&feature=relmfu

 

I work from home.  On Nest's website they have a white paper they published last year about their calculations on hos the Nest may affect two different types of homeowners...the ones who leave the house and go to work for 7+ hours a day, and the ones like us who are home most of the time.  Even for the ones who are home, there are savings to be made.

 

I just got the electric bill for last month.  $422 (ouch).  But Nashville, my home city, had a heat wave for the record books including the hottest day ever recorded (109 degrees).  We had easily the most degree days listed on our electric bill than I've ever seen (529).  The closest month I can find in our records that was like last month was July of 2010, where it crested to 498.  The degree day calculation wasn't as high but it was still intense.  What's more interesting is that we consumed 5009 kwhs of electricity back then.  Last month?  4196, which was a decrease of 16.3%.

 

We're nearly six months into having the Nests around and I'm starting to look at the ROI proposition.  We spent $500 on them and we're seeing $15-20% improvement in every month of use.  The other major energy improvements we could do are:

 

1.  Replace main HVAC unit (gas/electric) with a new one.  The old Rheem is 12 years old this month.  Cost to replace it with a 14 SEER model?  About $5000.  Estimated energy savings?  20% per month.

 

2.  Replace 20 year old double pane wooden windows with modern argon/krypton gas models.  Cost to replace all 24 windows is about $8000.  Estimated energy savings?  10% per month.

 

3.  Add a split vent AC unit to home theater/office area to help with household hot spot.  Will decrease load on main HVAC unit.  Cost is $2000.  Energy savings is undetermined.

 

4.  Clean the air ducts and have them checked for leaks.  Cost?  $300 or more.  Savings?  2%-14% according to estimates.

 

My household spent nearly $3400 in electric power consumption in 2011 before the Nests.  I'm pulling together the natural gas numbers now.  But if I see 15% savings for energy usage for the year (assuming that we look at the March-October period for electric consumption for AC and October-March for heat), then I predict I'll have already saved >$500 for the first 12 months of service.  Everything else is gravy and no other solution has that great an impact for the initial investment.  I am looking into having the ducts checked.  That seems to be an inexpensive check compared to the potential benefits.

Edited by Sevenfeet - 7/11/12 at 9:27am