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post #41 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ Web View Post

Link to NY Times article. I read it and it's not a hatchet job. Factual.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/business/apple-store-workers-loyal-but-short-on-pay.html?ref=technology

Factual? Then why are there no facts other than a few anecdotes? Even the $25 K figure cited above isn't relevant - they said that "Many Apple employees make $25 K". So what?

If you want to present a factual piece, post the average salary for people in similar jobs which require similar work experience in similar locations. Without that, it's nothing more than a hatchet job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchingnumber View Post

The more you read about the company, the less I like it and I buy everything mac so I'm vested in the ecosystem. 

There is no denying the products are great as was the Steve Jobs Biography but when you read the book, hear about the treatment of authorized dealers who find themselves locked out of a market that they helped to create, coupled to the general store approach, Tim Cook should take note. There were many great companies that failed the test of time through general arrogance to their customers, their own people and with their products. Tim Cook might look across the ocean to Sony for a lesson or two in what not to do. 

I see. So the fact that Apple pays enough that people are lined up trying to get jobs at the Apple stores somehow makes them evil. The fact that they've created many thousands of jobs makes them evil. The fact that they've created products that millions of people want to buy - and most of their competitors want to copy makes them evil.

Why not be specific? What is it that makes Apple a bad company? But be sure to use facts, not fact-free nonsense from NYT.
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post #42 of 129

First Of All: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/business/apple-store-workers-loyal-but-short-on-pay.html?pagewanted=all

 

Second Of All:

 Then WHY DID YOU READ IT!!??

post #43 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggiti View Post

"ex-Apple retail store employee Jordan Golson, who said it was "tough" when he sold three-quarters of a million dollars worth of devices in a three-month span

 

I was under the impression that Apple only sold products due to:

 

1. Their great 'marketing' of actually inferior products.

2. Steve Job's 'Reality Distortion Field'

 

Now it appears that it's actually this Jordan Golson's sales skills (despite the fact that Apple employees are constantly told not to push sales of anything other than 'One on One' or AppleCare) that sold three quarters of a million dollars worth of devices and, in no way, the result of Apple's ability to provide great hardware, software, and back it up with good old-fashioned great customer service.

 

Oh, woe!

 

Who are we to believe!!!

 

(>_<)

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post #44 of 129

Really..... you don't believe the nonsense you just wrote do you ?  Apple is one of the best companies to work for in the world. I guess your just jealous that you don't work for them.

post #45 of 129

I’m boycotting Apple!

 

Just as soon as...

 

a) The recent large pay raises for Apple retail are shown to be a hoax.

 

and

 

b) An Apple competitor is proven to offer a significantly more tempting employment package to its own retail staff.

 

and

 

c) That Apple competitor is shown to be doing (not lip service but action) even one half of what Apple has been doing to improve conditions for workers overseas, and to lessen environmental impact.

post #46 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post


The NYT definitely has been running with a lot of negative press about Apple recently.
Does anybody know what originally caused this 'falling out'?

 

 

It sells papers.  That is always the answer when the question concerns actions of the media.  They go for easy, spectacular stories.

post #47 of 129

The really annoying thing about the NYT is their sense of value. If I list my house with a realtor for a million dollars, do I then have to give that person half the value of the house because they found a buyer? Working at a store, selling stuff, is a job. The pay shouldn't be tied to the value of what you sell—it's a sales job. Even though the people who sell iPhones at AT&T make more for selling them because they're on commission, the customer experience at an AT&T store is much worse than at an Apple store because they're pushing the high-dollar stuff and frankly couldn't care less about what you really want or need. My experience at an Apple store is that they're interested in satisfying your needs.

 

Also, with working at an Apple store in your résumé, you are much more desirable to another employer. Treat it like getting an education. You're much more able to rise in income potential after working for Apple, even though rising in the Apple Store isn't much of an option.

post #48 of 129

In the previous thread about Apple giving some retail employees a 25% raise, I said good for the employees.

 

This New York Times story however, is complete crap, just like all of their other hit pieces targeting Apple, especially the fabricated China crap. Taking into consideration Apple's recent pay increase, which was quite substantial, there is no reason to give the employees any further pay hike. It is a retail job after all, and it doesn't take a genius to sell Apple devices. The devices sell themselves. Let's not go overboard here with liberal delusions and perverted economic policies. 

post #49 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by IchLiebeApfel View Post

Why no link to the NYTimes story? Because AppleInsider sticks its head in the sand when it comes to Apple not doing the right thing.  The story originally showed up on nytimes.com but we're only now seeing it mentioned here on Sunday.  

You're obviously a noob to AI as they routinely post Apple critical articles but they post very little on the weekends - guess they have families and need some time off eh.
post #50 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

The NYT definitely has been running with a lot of negative press about Apple recently.
Does anybody know what originally caused this 'falling out'?
apple becoming the most valuable company in the world.
post #51 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe View Post

I apologize in advance if this is harsh, but for the basic retail sales staff (not genius) how are they really different than any other retail job selling a product? Just because the company is successful doesn't make their position anymore valuable. 
Exactly. Curious how Apple retail pay compares to Best Buy or other retail?
post #52 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Funny how Apple is doing so horribly at Chinese work conditions after having just drastically improved Chinese work conditions.
Funny how Apple is putting out so much pollution after having just building the green energy plant for its servers.
Funny how Apple is short-changing its retail employees after having just drastically increased pay for retail employees.
Why can't we get some overseeing body to shut down these idiots in the media? That wouldn't be stifling free speech. It would be stifling lies.

You are just rewriting history here, each of your examples have turned that way precisely as a 'good will' response to NGOs activism or press reports, e.g. the contested data centers power scheme weasn't meant to be 100% green before Greenpreace campaigning, etc, you don't want me to dig for the relevant sources proving my point but they are well here. Morover this latest NYT report wasn't exactly made in a day, it is a months long inquiry...

post #53 of 129
Next in the NY Times iEconomy series: all about how Apple corporate doesnt employ enough women and minorities. I mean their CEO and all their SVP's are white men. Surely that isn't acceptable in PC America.
post #54 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggiti View Post

"ex-Apple retail store employee Jordan Golson, who said it was "tough" when he sold three-quarters of a million dollars worth of devices in a three-month span

but was earning just $11.25 per hour. He noted that in Christmas 2010, he and other employees were given gifts of a fleece blanket and insulated coffee thermos"

 

Ignore it all you want and be a FANBOY, But things like this will come back to bite Apple

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Since you're such and objective non-fanboy could you explain why Apple's retail pay is so bad?



This is the problem with the Internet Solips.  It gives trolling hacks like Diggiti a voice to spew his uneducated nonsense.

post #55 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggiti View Post

"ex-Apple retail store employee Jordan Golson, who said it was "tough" when he sold three-quarters of a million dollars worth of devices in a three-month span

but was earning just $11.25 per hour. He noted that in Christmas 2010, he and other employees were given gifts of a fleece blanket and insulated coffee thermos"

 

Ignore it all you want and be a FANBOY, But things like this will come back to bite Apple


Seriously, that's what retail pays.  It's a position that takes good people interaction skills, generally requires no college education, usually requires little or no experience, doesn't require much in the way of physical labor, and -- depending on the current labor market -- may have a lot of potential candidates vying for each job.

 

Didn't Mr. Golson agree to that compensation package when he took the retail job with Apple?

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post #56 of 129

People forget that Apple lives at the edge of innovation.  Soon, the Apple presence at corporations will be felt.  Right now the president and VPs all have iPhones, but the average employee runs a boring IBM or Microsoft terminal.  Soon it will all be iPads and iMacs.  Then the Apple technicians will be visiting corporations by the thousands.  Those visiting technicians in the industry now make $ 100 an hour.  Those two markets will fuse, creating a $ 50 an hour traveling genius.  

post #57 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

Yeah, well name a "great" company who currently is the poster boy for humanism. There are none and I'm sick and tired of all this drivel about how corporations are somehow obligated to share the wealth. The world has NEVER EVER worked that way and NEVER WILL. The human condition is all about sex, wealth, and power, and the accumulation there of. And people like yourself go on and on about "fairness" and "equality" ad nauseum until of course it hits you personally in the pocketbook. It's always somebody else, some corporation who's duty it is to redistribute wealth, not your wealth of course. Somebody else's wealth.

Who is on about wealth redistribution - certainly not me. I was simply suggesting that a less invidious or more measured approach merits consideration in the areas I mentioned of character, relationships and markets. My personal and very capitalist experience leads me to believe that less arrogance serves us better in the long term. You may have a different opinion and I'm happy for that differentiator.  

 

For Jragosta - I'm agnostic and business is just business. Winners and losers that's the reality, but there are always lessons to be learned. 


Edited by crunchingnumber - 6/24/12 at 8:53pm
post #58 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensi View Post

You are just rewriting history here, each of your examples have turned that way precisely as a 'good will' response to NGOs activism or press reports, e.g. the contested data centers power scheme weasn't meant to be 100% green before Greenpreace campaigning, etc, you don't want me to dig for the relevant sources proving my point but they are well here. Morover this latest NYT report wasn't exactly made in a day, it is a months long inquiry...

I'd like you to go dig for the relevant sources proving your point; go do so please.

post #59 of 129

I've heard Microsoft stores offer their employees a much less hectic work environment and the number of customers they must serve every day is limited. And Ballmer gives each of them a pony and a unicorn every year for Christmas.


Edited by dsd - 6/24/12 at 9:07pm
post #60 of 129

Apple starts Specialists in SF @ $14 hour. You don't need any special education, or prior work experience, just the right attitude and personality and then Apple provides training.  This training is the first piece of compensation you get, as you then are a more qualified candidate for other jobs.  With Apple on your resume, you are an even more attractive candidate.  You also get a 401k with matching (although most of the 20-somethings don't even think about saving, they are too busy spending on booze, etc.).  You get health benefits, even if you are part-time (minimum 15 hours per week required).  You have the opportunity to purchase stock at a very discounted rate (again, the younger staff usually don't take advantage of this, although buying just a couple shares a year can be valuable).  You get sick, vacation.  You get a very good company discount on products, which is now even better through the new program. The SL at the store where I worked used to say you will never get rich off your annual increases.  If you want more money, you have to work hard and take advantage of every training opportunity (and there are many) and MOVE UP into a new role.  Promotions pay extremely well as you jump into a new pay grade.  Any Apple specialist who wants to make more money has the opportunity to try to move into a new role but it has to be earned.  Eventually they will "cap out" and have a fantastic resume to move into a new company in a more responsible position. I've seen many talented folks work hard, get promoted, and then leave to make 2-3 times what Apple retail was paying.  Retail sales is not a long term career, it's a starting point.  Comes with starting salaries.  Unless you work in a high end retailer with a commission system where you can stay in place.  Apple is not about stagnating in a role, it's about owning your development and moving on eventually to a place where you can contribute more.  Three years is about as long as one should work in retail as a sales person (see exception above) and they should enough ambition to want to move on.

post #61 of 129

It's fucking retail. I don't care that it's Apple. IT'S FUCKING RETAIL! 

post #62 of 129

UPS delivery drivers earn a starting salary of $73,000. They work their way up from sorting and unloading trucks for years. Most of them have college degrees but really what do they do? They look at labels, drive a van around, haul boxes out of their trucks and get signatures. Requiring people to have any type of degree other than a commercial driver license is just stupid. Actually they don't need a CDL for the trucks they drive.

 

I drive a school bus hauling people. I earn much less than any UPS driver and many would consider my cargo more valuable. Certainly my responsibility is greater. I work for an international company based in England. That company pays the lowest wages they can in every city they operate. Turnover is high. Corporations don't care about that for any job that can be taught in a couple of weeks.

 

Look at some fast food restaurants or even high end restaurants. They pay minimum wage or just a little more (unless you live in North Dakota). It is hot dirty work cooking and cleaning inside a restaurant. Dish washers earn low pay and aren't given a chance to upgrade into food prep jobs. They just get to wash dishes for low pay until they quit. I've seen it for years when I worked in the restaurant staff services business. Companies care about their month to month bottom line, not about building loyalty or experience with low wage employees.

 

Apple sales employees should be on commission sales with a draw. If Apple wants their people to be less pushy then there should be no commission and no minimum sales quantity for each salesperson. They should not pressure their sales staff to sell more if they don't want them to be pushy with customers.

 

Apple is like other corporations because they only work to maximize their profits. We've all read about how many people here were disappointed with the last updates to some products. Many others continue to be let down by the slow updates to Apple products. If Apple cared about being the best instead of profiting the most, these things wouldn't happen. The same goes with their employees and pay.

post #63 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post

UPS delivery drivers earn a starting salary of $73,000. They work their way up from sorting and unloading trucks for years. Most of them have college degrees but really what do they do? They look at labels, drive a van around, haul boxes out of their trucks and get signatures. Requiring people to have any type of degree other than a commercial driver license is just stupid. Actually they don't need a CDL for the trucks they drive.

Most careers could probably be taught as a trade without the need for having to take 2 years of a foreign language you'll never use or any of the humanities and soft science electives. Even the sciences and maths which do often build off each other still have plenty of filler courses that are required to fulfill a degree and a great deal of stuff most of won't ever use in our careers or even remember past the next week's test.

That's simply not the point when a company looks for employees with degrees. There are plenty of occupations that require a degree in a certain field, especially for higher level degrees, but for the typical bachelors in arts the point is to much simpler. It does two things for UPS and other companies. One, it proves that you were able to stick with something for 4 years and even suggests you've learned to "eat shit." Two, it weeds out a lot of candidates that would otherwise be wanting that position.

That isn't to say that those without degrees are less intelligent or less responsible than applicants without degrees but it prove something in and of itself even if that proof also includes a certain level of luck because of the family you born into, your health, your geographic location, etc. At $73k a year plus their benefits, which I hear is superb, I doubt many UPS drivers are complaining that their degree in English literature is being wasted.

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post #64 of 129

It should be against the law to hold guns at people's heads to make them work for you. Shame on Apple.
 

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post #65 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post

UPS delivery drivers earn a starting salary of $73,000. They work their way up from sorting and unloading trucks for years. Most of them have college degrees but really what do they do? They look at labels, drive a van around, haul boxes out of their trucks and get signatures. Requiring people to have any type of degree other than a commercial driver license is just stupid. Actually they don't need a CDL for the trucks they drive.

 

I drive a school bus hauling people. I earn much less than any UPS driver and many would consider my cargo more valuable. Certainly my responsibility is greater. I work for an international company based in England. That company pays the lowest wages they can in every city they operate. Turnover is high. Corporations don't care about that for any job that can be taught in a couple of weeks.

 

Look at some fast food restaurants or even high end restaurants. They pay minimum wage or just a little more (unless you live in North Dakota). It is hot dirty work cooking and cleaning inside a restaurant. Dish washers earn low pay and aren't given a chance to upgrade into food prep jobs. They just get to wash dishes for low pay until they quit. I've seen it for years when I worked in the restaurant staff services business. Companies care about their month to month bottom line, not about building loyalty or experience with low wage employees.

 

Apple sales employees should be on commission sales with a draw. If Apple wants their people to be less pushy then there should be no commission and no minimum sales quantity for each salesperson. They should not pressure their sales staff to sell more if they don't want them to be pushy with customers.

 

Apple is like other corporations because they only work to maximize their profits. We've all read about how many people here were disappointed with the last updates to some products. Many others continue to be let down by the slow updates to Apple products. If Apple cared about being the best instead of profiting the most, these things wouldn't happen. The same goes with their employees and pay.


Nobody said life is fair. Don't think your job pays you enough? Then stop complaining and get a new one.

Tell US who does it better than Apple.

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post #66 of 129

The decision to increase retail workers' pay wasn't made in a day either. And increasing retail workers' pay is simply smart business. In Apple's higher ups' mind, the retail employees were too valuable to lose to another company. The higher ups decided to bump up pay so that they would not feel an incentive to move somewhere else.

 

The whole premise of the NYT article is that Apple is very rich so they should share their wealth by increasing salaries. In any job, it's up to you as the employee to prove that you are worth the money you are paid. If you think you deserve a raise, it's up to you to prove that you should be paid more. 

post #67 of 129

Is the pay scale of those Apple retail workers that unusually low to draw media attention?  Is the job a very difficult one to do apart from having to be on your feet all day long?  Apparently every great empire in history is built on the backs of low-paid drones.  I doubt that will ever change.  Is the CEO of any company actually worth thousands of times in higher pay than the lowest paid workers?  Probably not.  I'm not surprised that Apple is always being singled out as a terrible company supporting human injustices.  It just goes along with the territory of being a successful company.  I still say that as long as there are potential employees out there willing or practically begging to get work and Apple can give them jobs, then Apple isn't doing too badly at all.  The NYT would be better of reporting the job losses at RIM, H-P, Dell or Nokia rather than going after Apple.  I know that if I was looking for a job, I would certainly be willing to work at Apple those Apple retail stores rather than going to J.C. Penney's or Old Navy.  I've had lower-paying jobs and worked in much worse conditions with forced overtime, so to me working at Apple would probably be like a vacation.  I guess it's always different when looking from the outside-in than the other way around.  I honestly do wonder how the job conditions and pay-scale would be for those employees working at the NYT.  Does anyone think that there would be better working conditions and pay at the NYT than at Apple retail?

post #68 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by vvswarup View Post
The whole premise of the NYT article is that Apple is very rich so they should share their wealth by increasing salaries.

That about sums it up.  Of course what they totally ignore is the fact that just because you are an employee that doesn’t equate you to being an invested owner of said company.  That pretty much never happens in any organization no matter how successful that company is.  You want to make money based on the value of the company you can invest in it. That’s the away things work.

post #69 of 129

It appears that NYT is on mission. They will twist their facts their make their point. It is amazing how they are computing earnings per employees to make their point. What about all those engineers who are working in Cupertino to innovate the product? They went to many years of college to get to where they are. Isn't it injustice to them that the retail guys who are either still in college or haven't finished any college to have them compare against their engineer. By the way, it i bogus about some guy at retail store selling quarter million of goods at Apple. This guys are not on commission. And what did he meant he sold that - Again, NYT is taking things out of context. And, comparison against Lulemon ? WTF ? Why aren't they comparing against the next largest market cap company - ExxonMobil? I wonder what is their earnings per employees and how close do they pay their guys working out on the rigs and other dangerous places?

 

Last but not least - They just increased the salary of their retail workers unto 25%.  This is unheard of - Especially in such hard time like right now - I would like to hear such raises to people who are working out there. I bet some of the people are even getting inflation adjustment raises.

 

NYT - Go suck an egg and report some real news! 

post #70 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by radster360 View Post

It appears that NYT is on mission. They will twist their facts their make their point. It is amazing how they are computing earnings per employees to make their point.

Gruber made a funny comment to that effect tonight.


Quote:
Why aren't they comparing against the next largest market cap company - ExxonMobil? I wonder what is their earnings per employees and how close do they pay their guys working out on the rigs and other dangerous places?

I wonder when NYT will write an article comparing how fuel is spent each year at a gas station and to much the attendant behind the register gets paid per hour.
Edited by SolipsismX - 6/24/12 at 10:38pm

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post #71 of 129

Wow! I am amazed by your post. Tell me something, if you know so much about media stuff - Do all stories make it into paper? I am sure certain story don't make it. Okay! let's say I will give you that maybe NYT was working on this story for some time, Let's say I will give you 3 weeks. Apple got the smell of the story and they get scared and expedited their announcement before the story came out. Do you think companies makes such large increases as much as 25% over night? Do you think they started looking into this when they found out NYT was looking into this matter some 3 weeks ago? I don't understand how people come to conclusion that a largest market cap company in the world is run by some stupid executives who makes random decisions.

 

Bottom line - NYT will do everything, even look stupid, to generate some buzz around.

post #72 of 129

If the story is true, score one for Browett.

 

I'll be the first to admit I did not have high hopes for Browett, given all the bad press about Dixon's and his operations (i.e. cost-cutting) background.

 

But if the recent wage hike announcement is his doing, then I am pleasantly surprised.

 

As for all you guys pathetically defending poor wages for hard work, in America or in China, understand that your approach is not only inhuman and demoralizing, but bad economics. Disgruntled employees have a million ways to cause economic damage, through action, or inaction, and once that kind of culture sets in it is very hard to change. In the long run, "winner takes all" is a sure fire formula for "everybody loses". A little generosity can go a long way. Even Browett gets it. So should you.

post #73 of 129
Seems as though the NYT is on a roll on finding Gloom and Domm related to Apple products a d it's practices
I'm not saying that everything that Apple does is perfect or good , However a 2 sided picture From NYT would be more realistic rather than skipping Apples good points.

It's already obvious that NYT & APPLE are not on good media terms and this article is not going to make anything better
post #74 of 129

I am ashamed to be in company with so many cold hearted, mean spirited people on these forums. I thought that Apple fans were different. You sound like a bunch of Islamic fundamentalists. I guess when a brand gets to become so big, it has to absorb even bottom feeders.

post #75 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by BUSHMAN4 View Post

Seems as though the NYT is on a roll on finding Gloom and Domm related to Apple products a d it's practices
I'm not saying that everything that Apple does is perfect or good , However a 2 sided picture From NYT would be more realistic rather than skipping Apples good points.
It's already obvious that NYT & APPLE are not on good media terms and this article is not going to make anything better

Are you kidding?? Have you ever read ANY NYT article by David Pogue? 

post #76 of 129
I think Pavlov; slap the name Apple on your article and you know you will get traffic. All could be true, but the other side is that you you have devices around you were you can test your apps on. It's a bit naive to think your boss will make you rich, when you won't do it yourself. I'll be glad to work in an Apple store and do some testing. :-)
post #77 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Should they pay Fedex more than the going rate for shipping because Apple has lots of money?

They could stop using (at least here in Europe) UPS, which sucks tremendously. On four Apple deliveries in two years, all by UPS, none arrived at my home on time and without me having to call UPS and enquire after a week :D

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

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post #78 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler82 View Post

Are you kidding?? Have you ever read ANY NYT article by David Pogue? 

You aren't presuming that Pogue reflects the Times editorial policy are you?
Edited by Flaneur - 6/25/12 at 2:18am
post #79 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Funny how Apple is doing so horribly at Chinese work conditions after having just drastically improved Chinese work conditions.
Funny how Apple is putting out so much pollution after having just building the green energy plant for its servers.
Funny how Apple is short-changing its retail employees after having just drastically increased pay for retail employees.
Why can't we get some overseeing body to shut down these idiots in the media? That wouldn't be stifling free speech. It would be stifling lies.

Here in the UK, Apple store employees earn more than any other electronics retailer. Those people on the shop floor at PC World and Comet are on or just above minimum wage.

Besides, these people aren't exactly curing cancer as well, they're selling electronics to people. I'd say $25k a year is pretty decent when I'm only earning £16k as a web developer right now.

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post #80 of 129

Here's another perspective on the story, exploring whether Apple is really exploiting its employees or just taking advantage of the capitalistic system, as well as how Apple's reaction is just another indicator of its not too successful 'little dutch boy' CSR strategy.

 

The New McJobs – Is Apple Exploiting Its Store Employees? http://www.triplepundit.com/2012/06/new-mcjobs-apple-exploiting-store-employees/

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