Quote:

Originally Posted by island hermit 

 

1. Which is more than MS had to show when it comes to the Surface Pro.

 

2. The Surface Pro is pretty much non-existent

 

3. Why anyone would choose to spend money on vaporware is pretty much beyond me... that seems like spending money to just spend money.

 

Ohhh, ohhh... When can I pre-order... call on me, call on me first!

To appease its partners Microsoft could offer discounts to them if they produce their own tablet. They could give a slightly lesser discount to the ones making ultrabooks. That way the partners wouldn't be so angry. Of course I'm assuming they're angry because I haven't read any quotations from them.

Recently I've decided that I don't want a big tablet as a computer, even though I do believe Apple is working its way to creating a full line of office level tablets.

I've tried a Kindle Fire and a Barns & Nobel Nook Color. Each of those devices handles very basic tasks well. The Kindle Fire turns pages much faster than the old E-Ink models. Videos stream well on it. The same goes for the Nook. What I like about them is their small size. They're big enough for easy reading and small enough to remain comfortable to hold for long periods of time. They're also not designed for work. That frees me to do real work on a desktop or laptop computer.

I don't want to do work on a ten inch screen. Sending e-mail and browsing the web on the small e-books is plenty. The novelty of the touch screen has worn off on me. Having it on an e-book reader is just fine.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaltWater 

Microsoft is creating a very nice eco system, if they get a long term vision and not starting to make the windows 8 app signature bullshit and so on, maybe they have a chance, right now Android is the King, Apple is slowly loosing to Google, and the new OS Mountain Lion don't give much to already called Mac OS X Vista - Lion.

 

About the prices Microsoft has an advantage here, since Apple only knows expensive word, and Microsoft is know to Make 10 versions of the "same" operating system, so that will be the same with tablets, since Nokia will sell Windows 8 Tablets!! 

 

I do think we are always thinking Apple is the best and greatest, but if we see the last numbers, stock markets and iPhones/Macs sell, things are not looking so good as once did.

And they call us "Fanboys".... 

Quote:

Originally Posted by sflocal 

And they call us "Fanboys".... 

I wear that name like a badge of honor!

I think I'll have a black t-shirt made with a white Apple logo and Fanboy written underneath.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sflocal 

And they call us "Fanboys".... 

I HAD TO have been a joke. No one with their eyes on the market and quarterly reports would post such inanity. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by macinthe408 

Apple will need to step up its game if it wants to compete with the Surface Pro. It should consider attaching a keyboard to the iPad, allow it to run a full desktop OS (OS X maybe?), provide USB and miniDisplay ports, a trackpad, and a swivel-like display. They should give it a name that connotes light weight, such as Oxygen or Feather, maybe even Air. 

While we are at it, they could sacrifice some cost to this Uber iPad by removing the touchscreen -- and have a mouse and a full speed processor. We'll call it something you can put on your lap that's really, really cool! A Laptop -- yeah, that's perfect for this iPad killer.

Now I'll need a bag for all those usb things I have to lug around for my better, faster, stronger Surface Laptop.

Oh, and if it can play some DVD's -- it's the killer package!

The i5 purported to going into the Windows 8 high end tablet isn't $30.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by kent909 


Do you have any interest in sharing where or how the rest of us can get a Quad Core 3Ghz computer for $500?

$500 seems a stretch but Newegg is my friend.  Every computer I build, I use them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fake_William_Shatner 

 

While we are at it, they could sacrifice some cost to this Uber iPad by removing the touchscreen -- and have a mouse and a full speed processor. We'll call it something you can put on your lap that's really, really cool! A Laptop -- yeah, that's perfect for this iPad killer.

 

Now I'll need a bag for all those usb things I have to lug around for my better, faster, stronger Surface Laptop.

 

Oh, and if it can play some DVD's -- it's the killer package!

I have some old Syquest 44s and 88s. MS might just get me interested if...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quadra 610 

 

I HAD TO have been a joke.....

 

Are you??  :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer 

The i5 purported to going into the Windows 8 high end tablet isn't $30.
 

By the time the Pro actually launches, it may be cheaper than that....

Microsoft has to go all in here to compete in the tablet segment. They'll spare no expense but if the Surface is even good, they will sell a lot just because it is windows.

But they won't compete against Apple much early on. They'll compete with Android. The product doesn't have to be an iPad killer to be successful. 

On the OEM side, the $90 price for RT Operating system will be discounted to $40 for the large manufacturers.

The reference 32 GB tablets will be more in the range of $499-549 for the 32 GB Version as the OEM's fight over thin margins.

I love my iPad, but I can see the pros of a Windows tablet.  The value in the Pro is that it can replace both a laptop and a tablet since it essentially has 2 different interfaces (as long as battery life is decent).  So $900 isn't that bad price if you are replacing two devices.    Even an RT could replace both if your mainly use your laptop just to run a full version of Office.  An RT version of Photoshop Elements would be 10x better for advanced photo editing than anything on the iPad simply because a mouse is much more accurate than a finger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apple ][ 

Just because you know a few people who might have high end systems doesn't change the statistics. The vast majority of people using Windows are on crap machines. Apple owns the high end consumer market.

And no response in regards to those of use who use Mac Minis...(and even run...gasp...Windows on them). I guess we are all just cheap bastards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimUSCA 

The Surface has a USB port, so there's your solution to getting CD/DVD-based software onto it.

Um, how do you know this, Tim?  Are you on the MS development team?  Are you privy to the manufacturing specs actually submitted to a plant in China or South Korea?  Please don't answer "I've read the website info" or "I saw the LA presentation."  Microsoft is INFAMOUS for announcing/leaking products that never actually make it to market, so the actual name of the "Surface" should be "The Surface VW" (for "Vaporware").  Hope to hear more insider information.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregInPrague 

 

The chart clearly says OEM Surface Style RT tablet.  The chart is imagining the costs/profits for Dell or Acer to make a similar machine running Windows.  The $90 is what the manufacturer will have to pay MS for the right to use Windows on their tablet (The $90 amount was rumored months ago).  The explanation for the extra $12 in "other" is referring to Apple's economies of scale for all the little items that go into the tablet.  Apple buys parts by the 10's of millions so they can command significantly better prices than the other manufacturers doing runs of 10s or 100s of thousands.  That has been well documented for years.

 

The data is reasonable and valid as an estimate, think things through and read carefully before spouting off...

And yet AI's title is "Microsoft faces 'major dilemma' pricing Surface tablets against iPad" So why is this chart even in the article when it clearly is SUPPOSED to be focused on the Surface...which is NOT a 3rd party tablet. The chart states Surface style tablets....hmmmm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstone 

I don't get it either. A tablet is not supposed to have a keyboard. What they have designed is a terrible tablet and a terrible laptop combined together for a terrible user experience. We don't know how the software will work but they will probably sell quite a few to people like lamewing who don't care how much it sucks as long as it says Windows on it. It has to be better than that crappy Apple kit with all those crappy apps, music, books, movies, TV shows, podcasts, and textbooks.

And yet MANY people use BT keyboards with tablets. And who made you grand PooBa regarding whether a tablet can accept input via a keyboard? Dude, screw you six ways to Sunday. We have both Mac Minis (one hooked up to our main TV the other in our office) and PCs in our home in addition to iPhones, Windows Phones, 2 iPods, 1 Zune, 1 imported Sony Walkman, Apple TVs and a Roku. Don't push the "lamewing is a Windows fan BS". It just doesn't fly. I will use whatever works and Windows 7 works just as well as OSX.  

By the way, I want a Surface Pro so that I can use only one device instead of having to own a computer AND a tablet. Also, the handwriting recognition in Windows is a decade of anything Apple has developed. With the use of an optional stylus I can use the Surface as a REAL tablet where I can input note by writing...which is much faster than typing on an on screen keyboard. Also, I prefer a stylus (not a 3rd party stylus on an iOS device.)  to enter Japanese naturally versus typing it.

Take your MS/Windows hatred and stick it.

I just realized that there is another bullet point that MS should be concerned about in their "Surface Dilemma".

Price, apps, legacy software and hardware issues aside...

No one (business and consumers, alike) will buy either model Surface because...  ...because they will have to install the new OS (Windows 8/RT) to use it.  Maybe mid 2014 when SP2 comes out for the new OS.

Paraphrasing Yogi Berra: "They'll be staying away [from purchasing a Surface] in droves [Because of Windows 8/RT].

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamewing 

BS. Most people I know with who use Windows have high-end systems (both laptops and desktops).  If you want to state that people who don't want to spend a lot of money buy low-cost PCs, that is fine, but your blanket statement is worthless. So are all people who buy Mac Minis for the most part cheap?

Your evidence is anecdotal, and anecdotal evidence isn't. Evidence, that is.  Unless they number in the tens of millions, the people you know who have high-end systems will not be enough to sustain a viable market for a premium priced Surface.

The fact is there is no significant market for high end PCs and the sales figures are available to prove it.  It's not a big secret.

So it's not BS to claim that there aren't enough PC buyers to sustain a Windows tablet that is not significantly cheaper than an iPad.  Especially if Microsoft cannot prohibit Acer, Samsung and the rest of them from coming up with products that are priced lower than the Surface.  This will be the same old race to the bottom that we've seen with Windows PCs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tundraboy 

 

Your evidence is anecdotal, and anecdotal evidence isn't. Evidence, that is.  Unless they number in the tens of millions, the people you know who have high-end systems will not be enough to sustain a viable market for a premium priced Surface.

 

The fact is there is no significant market for high end PCs and the sales figures are available to prove it.  It's not a big secret.

 

So it's not BS to claim that there aren't enough PC buyers to sustain a Windows tablet that is not significantly cheaper than an iPad.  Especially if Microsoft cannot prohibit Acer, Samsung and the rest of them to come up with products that are priced lower than the Surface.  This will be the same old race to the bottom that we've seen with Windows PCs.

That wasn't the claim. The original claim was that PC and Windows users are cheap people. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamewing 

... Windows 7 works just as well as OSX.

How I dearly wish this were true. I have to use Win 7 ("Professional"!) at work, and nearly every day, I am unfortunately reminded how surprisingly _bad_ it is. It's the death of a thousand little maddening cuts. Not just Windows, but the general Visual-Basic quality of most "professional" Windows software. Gag!

Maybe in Japanese, but certainly not in English.

Adding to MS' Dilemma:  

LEAK: This Is Google's Tablet

http://www.businessinsider.com/leak-this-is-googles-tablet-2012-6

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tallest Skil 


BA HA HA HA HA! Using a mouse… with a tablet! AH HA HA HA HA!

It just keeps getting better and better, doesn't it. 

"How can anyone even say this? We know nothing about these devices."

Sure we do.  The Pro is bascially an intel PC in tablet form running Windows 8.  Windows 8 has two interfaces.  One for touch and the normal windows interface.  Apps can be written for one or both interfaces.  You switch back and forth depending on what task you are doing.

"BA HA HA HA HA! Using a mouse… with a tablet! AH HA HA HA HA!"

Of course, this would be when you were using it as a traditional laptop.  If you have ever done more than novice editing in photoshop, you would understand why you must use a mouse or a Wacom type drawing tablet.  You simply can not use your finger for any serious editing.  For example, try doing dodge and burn portrait retouching with a finger.  You can't even make accurate selections with a finger.

What everyone seems to be blind to is the fact that these Forums are mainly inhabited by us Tech-heads who are a bit of a minority.

The unwashed masses don't really want or understand the finer points of technical bling. It has been a slow process, but through the iPod, the iPhone and now the iPod, lesser mortals are realising that for a few dollars more they get something that is easy to use and doesn't need constant upkeep.

No longer stuck with an old Ford Escort (UK) or on Edsel (US), they go for the Merc automatic or Volvo. Costs more, easier to drive, and doesn't need its bonnet lifting every weekend to keep it going. Having worked for several companies, I see how companies using PC's have IT departments significantly (proportionally) larger than those running Mac's. Currently I run at work with a PC, and it breaks my heart to waste so much time just keeping it running. My current job wants me to drive the damn thing (work with it) not fix it (work on it).

Horses for courses, as the old saying goes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tallest Skil 

Quote:

Even an RT could replace both if your mainly use your laptop just to run a full version of Office.

Of course you have to buy a brand new version of Office that only works on that tablet first.

RT will have a version of Office included.  This has been known for quite a while.  Best to get educated before ill-informed posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwlaw99 Of course, this would be when you were using it as a traditional laptop.  If you have ever done more than novice editing in photoshop, you would understand why you must use a mouse or a Wacom type drawing tablet.  You simply can not use your finger for any serious editing.  For example, try doing dodge and burn portrait retouching with a finger.  You can't even make accurate selections with a finger.

Please post a vid of how you would use the mouse on your lap or otherwise.

Will you be using one of your legs (I'm assuming you have two) or will you be lying down and using your stomach as the flat surface (I'm assuming your stomach is flat).

Call me curious...

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdq2 

 

How I dearly wish this were true. I have to use Win 7 ("Professional"!) at work, and nearly every day, I am unfortunately reminded how surprisingly _bad_ it is. It's the death of a thousand little maddening cuts. Not just Windows, but the general Visual-Basic quality of most "professional" Windows software. Gag!

 

 

Maybe in Japanese, but certainly not in English

Hyperbole much? I use both everyday and each works fine. Both OSes have little niggles, but if someone wants to start a OS war over them...well that is their choice.

Yes, certainly in English. I can enter Japanese (kana, romanji, and kanji), Korean Hangul and English faster using a stylus and Windows' handwriting recognition faster than I can type (and correct) on an iPad's onscreen keyboard. Using a real keyboard is a different story, but we are talking about using a device as a tablet/notepad. When using an iPad's onscreen keyboard there is not any haptic feedback so real touch typing isn't an option. Even worse, iOS and OSX don't have handwriting recognition...what they have is a joke.

Four pages of comments and not much intelligent discourse.  I expect too much from this board.

Some things not mentioned:

Win Phone 8, Windows RT and Windows 8 will share a core kernel.  This will make it much easier for developers to write for all three platforms.

Surface Pro will have up to 128 GB of storage.   That wipes the floor with any iPad.

Both Surface's will be expandable with flash memory cards.  Unlike having to pay $100 to Apple for more memory at severely inflated memory prices.

Plug in an external portable hard drive into the USB and get unlimited file storage. Oh, that Apple thingy has no file system. Harder to manipulate files.

People seem obsessed with the fact that a keyboard is available for Surface models.  somehow the Surface fails because of this.  Yet, there are at least a dozen good keyboards available for the iPad.  Did these people think before posting? 

Surface Pro offers instant compatibility with existing Enterprise software, including proprietary.  Can't really say the same thing about the iPad with little to no Enterprise support.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BanExtremists 

Four pages of comments and not much intelligent discourse.  I expect too much from this board.

 

Some things not mentioned:

 

Win Phone 8, Windows RT and Windows 8 will share a core kernel.  This will make it much easier for developers to write for all three platforms.

 

Surface Pro will have up to 128 GB of storage.   That wipes the floor with any iPad.

 

Both Surface's will be expandable with flash memory cards.  Unlike having to pay $100 to Apple for more memory at severely inflated memory prices.

 

Plug in an external portable hard drive into the USB and get unlimited file storage. Oh, that Apple thingy has no file system. Harder to manipulate files.

 

People seem obsessed with the fact that a keyboard is available for Surface models.  somehow the Surface fails because of this.  Yet, there are at least a dozen good keyboards available for the iPad.  Did these people think before posting? 

 

Surface Pro offers instant compatibility with existing Enterprise software, including proprietary.  Can't really say the same thing about the iPad with little to no Enterprise support.

No matter what positives you provide the MS haters will still poo poo your comments. Sooner or later you give up on reasonable and intelligent discourse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjwal 

 I run a $500 quad core 3 Ghz desktop.  I guess I'm to cheap to pay $2,000+ for something comparable from Apple.

Apple is just not competive in the desktop market so the smart (not cheap) money is with Windows whether you like it or not.

That said there is no way I would use a Surface as a desktop it would be just too underpowered.  The only justification for tablets and reasonably priced(<$2000) laptops is portability.  Apple is very competive in that market.

Apple is _leading_ that market.  But you make a mistake.  Apple isn't competing against MS, they are competing against OEMs.  Most computer buyers today don't self configure, and they definitely don't buy computers based on OS internals. 

To put it bluntly, Your datapoint does not define the 'smart money.'   Most people don't need power... they need connectivity and intuitive applications to support their every day life.   Few of the 7Billion people need quadcore i7s.   But we are now starting on the horizon where they will need a 2 core ARM chip in their phone, and a device for them to manage their life and their business, hence portability.

The MS business model won't sustain in the new mobile computing market backended by the cloud.   They need to suck $100 from every _device_ sold to make their numbers, and PC sales growth is dwindling, and the iPad/highlyPortable market is the only growth market.   So, to hit growth numbers, MS needs to their OEMs to compete in that market. OEM's are failing, primarily due to the cost of Microsoft OS and Office.   Win7 does not sell a computer to a new customer. 

Hence the reason why Microsoft is building a reference platform they can either monetize or set the standard of what usability should be for Windows.

IF they can do that, then Windows may survive as the top OS.  but they are 4 years behind in a market that they cannot define anymore, only react to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamewing 

No matter what positives you provide the MS haters will still poo poo your comments. Sooner or later you give up on reasonable and intelligent discourse.

Reasonable and intelligent discourse??

Hey, pal, we (Apple fans) are not the ones boasting about a pie in the sky non existent product.

What's next... you want us to have a reasonable and intelligent discourse on unicorns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BanExtremists 

Four pages of comments and not much intelligent discourse.  I expect too much from this board.

 

Some things not mentioned:

 

Win Phone 8, Windows RT and Windows 8 will share a core kernel.  This will make it much easier for developers to write for all three platforms.

 

Surface Pro will have up to 128 GB of storage.   That wipes the floor with any iPad.

 

Both Surface's will be expandable with flash memory cards.  Unlike having to pay $100 to Apple for more memory at severely inflated memory prices.

 

Plug in an external portable hard drive into the USB and get unlimited file storage. Oh, that Apple thingy has no file system. Harder to manipulate files.

 

People seem obsessed with the fact that a keyboard is available for Surface models.  somehow the Surface fails because of this.  Yet, there are at least a dozen good keyboards available for the iPad.  Did these people think before posting? 

 

Surface Pro offers instant compatibility with existing Enterprise software, including proprietary.  Can't really say the same thing about the iPad with little to no Enterprise support.

One thing not mentioned by you... the Surface Pro does not exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by island hermit 

 

Reasonable and intelligent discourse??

 

Hey, pal, we (Apple fans) are not the ones boasting about a pie in the sky non existent product.

 

What's next... you want us to have a reasonable and intelligent discourse on unicorns.

 

So unless we fawn over Apple's products, we shouldn't expect a reasonable discussion. Never mind, your comment provides me with that answer....Unicorns.../sheesh