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Microsoft faces 'major dilemma' pricing Surface tablets against iPad - Page 5

post #161 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerrySwitched26 View Post

 

 

People who use Windows exceed 90% of the population.

 

...

 

This is not true at all.  It's a gross misuse of statistics to say this at best.  

 

It just shows that you don't understand math or statistics so why should anyone believe anything else you say?  

post #162 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by BanExtremists View Post

Four pages of comments and not much intelligent discourse.  I expect too much from this board.

 

Some things not mentioned:

 

Win Phone 8, Windows RT and Windows 8 will share a core kernel.  This will make it much easier for developers to write for all three platforms.

 

Surface Pro will have up to 128 GB of storage.   That wipes the floor with any iPad.

 

Both Surface's will be expandable with flash memory cards.  Unlike having to pay $100 to Apple for more memory at severely inflated memory prices.

 

Plug in an external portable hard drive into the USB and get unlimited file storage. Oh, that Apple thingy has no file system. Harder to manipulate files.

 

People seem obsessed with the fact that a keyboard is available for Surface models.  somehow the Surface fails because of this.  Yet, there are at least a dozen good keyboards available for the iPad.  Did these people think before posting? 

 

Surface Pro offers instant compatibility with existing Enterprise software, including proprietary.  Can't really say the same thing about the iPad with little to no Enterprise support.

Developers will write 3 apps for 3 platforms...  some of that code will be sharable... but it will be 3 apps.   No different than the iPhone,iPad,OSX.  - Draw
 
Storage: Have you heard the Gretzkyism.  "Skate to where the puck will be..."  You don't equate a laptop to a tablet.   Local Storage in a Cloud computing model can be minimized and some extents more is bad (backups).   You need to have an adequate local working set... the rest is in the cloud.   
 
Keyboards  pretty much wasted argument.  The key thing is intuitive UI.   If microsoft can do that with either 'just a keyboard' or 'just a stylus' mode... great.  Until I actually see someone typing on a surface keyboard (I remember LongHorn;-), I won't hold my breath.
 
You switched arguments in mid stream in enterprise support.  most FXXX enterprises support iOS in one way or another (mine supports them on MS Exchange and Sharepoint and web apps all are mobile enhanced? what else do we need... oh that desktop that still runs that proprietary app... let's just leave it, don't upgrade it to Win8 (from XP).  Oh... and snap... people buy laptops and tablets too...   lots of people  people who run businesses, and want to take their work home with them.  "Oh... there's an app for that?  Cloud backended?  Great. "
 
Surface is purely a tactical protection of the Windows revenue stream... All the arguments made about Windows Enterprise Strengths can be made, but the 17year old running off to college is not buying a laptop for it's "enterprise support"  And in today's market, that's the growth market for MacBooks and iPads... individuals under 30 and over 50... people not tied to 'enterprise.'   
 
As stated previously... you shouldn't make this into a MS vs Apple battle.  This is a MS vs shareholder battle.  MS needs to be relevant in the market, and the market has moved from the desktop to the briefcase/backpack.   OEM's can't compete with the iPad or iPhone because the margins squeeze under the Microsoft Win+Office Tax... therefore Microsoft pretty much has to make the device, in order to ensure Microsoft profits.
post #163 of 210

Apple should do the right thing and hold a funeral for this tablet with a kickstand. It would be the polite and proper thing to do. I don't even think that it deserves to be buried, just cremate it and get it done with.

post #164 of 210

Are you nuts, Apple is focused. Ms was the last of the competition to enter the battle.Now that all the competition are out of hiding its gonna be full force with the hammer from  Mr.Tim Cook.

 

and besides that's the same people who make the iPod killer. "the dead Zune" so no stepping up game for Apple, we the consumers would speak.

post #165 of 210

And regarding these currently non-available MS demo tablets, the iPad 4 is going to be out not long afterwards. By Q4, the iPad 4 will be right around the corner. :)

post #166 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltWater View Post

Microsoft is creating a very nice eco system, if they get a long term vision and not starting to make the windows 8 app signature bullshit and so on, maybe they have a chance, right now Android is the King, Apple is slowly loosing to Google, and the new OS Mountain Lion don't give much to already called Mac OS X Vista - Lion.

 

About the prices Microsoft has an advantage here, since Apple only knows expensive word, and Microsoft is know to Make 10 versions of the "same" operating system, so that will be the same with tablets, since Nokia will sell Windows 8 Tablets!! 

 

I do think we are always thinking Apple is the best and greatest, but if we see the last numbers, stock markets and iPhones/Macs sell, things are not looking so good as once did.

 

If I read between the lines, you seem to be basing Apple's *success* on market share by unit. That's not how they succeed. They succeed by delivering the best product they can with healthy margins. Tell me again how they are doing? ;)

post #167 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamewing View Post

By the way, I want a Surface Pro so that I can use only one device instead of having to own a computer AND a tablet.

 

What? Based on that presentation alone? That's one hell of an act of faith.

Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
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Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
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post #168 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamewing View Post

So unless we fawn over Apple's products, we shouldn't expect a reasonable discussion. Never mind, your comment provides me with that answer....Unicorns.../sheesh

 

Microsoft will drag us kicking and screaming into the past...

 

lol.gif

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post #169 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by hexor View Post

I think the Pro would be more appropriately compared to the Macbook Air at $999.  But who know if MS will be able to even match that price.

You are correct... to an extent. The Surface Pro, like the MBA is not going to be a graphics whiz. It will likely even be slower then the MBA regarding graphics and CPU clock speed due to the heat handling capacity of each device. However, since the Intel-based Windows applications are still not designed for touch and gesture input, The MS Surface Pro will need the keyboard for mouse/trackpad for best content creation. The MBA has a great built-in back-lit keyboard and gesture-aware trackpad. The MS Surface Pro (like the RT version) is hard to use anywhere other then on a table. The kickstand makes it necessary to have more depth of space to set up than a MBA. Imagine trying to type on your lap with the pro... the kickstand makes you sit the screen back behind your knees and then the rubber keypad is drooping off the sides of your legs while the touchpad is somewhere up past your belt buckle. 

 

Anything ported over to the RT and not optimized for a touch/multi-touch input is just a slower gutless Surface Pro. So, Microsoft will debut with the RT, which will underwhelm everyone, so when the Pro versions arrives in 2013 (or if ever) the interest may be completely gone. Besides, by then, the hype will all be about the new Apple iPad and it will be, "MS who?"

"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #170 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff View Post
 ...they are... behind in a market that they cannot define anymore, only react to.

 

 

Absolutely right!

 

It's gonna be interesting to watch how this pans out.  It's been a long time since Microsoft actually had to complete.  I wonder if they can do it?

post #171 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

 

Do they serve cake in your dimension?

 

I could really go for some alternate reality cheesecake. Before I wake up.

Exactly! Bravo....Having an eco-system (Apple) and saying you have an eco-system (MS, Google) are two entirely different things! :)

 

And then add the qualifier "elegant" to describe said eco-system (again, Apple) differentiates eco-systems even more. I have never heard anything from either MS or Google described as "elegant!" :)

post #172 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by allblue View Post

 

What? Based on that presentation alone? That's one hell of an act of faith.

At least MS is presenting such an idea. 

 

Does Apple have one OS that can work as a computer and tablet depending on the situation? Nope. Got to have 2 devices and 2 OSes.

Does Apple have true handwriting recognition software? No. Got to buy a Windows machine.

 

And it isn't an act of faith. Currently, the Surface is the only device that will provide those capabilities. I am not tied to MS or Apple. IF Apple created such a device I would buy theirs. Same with any other manufacturer that created such a device. As it stands either MS or Apple are really the only two who can do this. BUT...MS has to deal with building hardware a massive scale...which is not something they are particularly skilled at doing. Apple doesn't have a handwriting recognition option on any of their devices. So....I might as well hope for MS to make the Surface. If it doesn't work out...my world won't fall apart.

 

It is interesting that so many Apple folks nay say the Surface, but if Apple were to make such a device that could act as a desktop/laptop/tablet all-in-one the Apple supporters would have a global orgasm. The only REAL problem with the Surface is that MS came up with it...not Apple.

post #173 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamewing View Post
 The only REAL problem with the Surface is that MS came up with it...not Apple.

 

lol.gif

 

The only real problem we have with it is that it doesn't exist.

 

lol.gif

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post #174 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamewing View Post

Does Apple have true handwriting recognition software? No.

Your bad experiences with software do not "doesn't have that software" make.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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post #175 of 210

It must be a great feeling for competing OEM's to be subsidizing Microsoft's tablet line.

post #176 of 210
So torn here. There are lots of things I love about the Surface, Metro, Win8, and WinNT kernel across ARM/Intel and smartphone/tablet/PC, but there is so much lack of understanding about consumers that I think it's all going to fail miserably.

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post #177 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamewing View Post

That chart states MS would have to include $90 for the OS in a surface tablet yet stating Apple doesn't have to for the iPad. Why? It is MS's baby, as the iPad is Apple's, so that info is inaccurate. Also, the line that includes "other" tacks on another $12 with no explanation.

 

Until this data is updated correctly, it is totally invalid.

Yes, but Microsoft's OEM's do NOT have that advantage, which I think is the real point here.

post #178 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by macinthe408 View Post

Apple will need to step up its game if it wants to compete with the Surface Pro. It should consider attaching a keyboard to the iPad, allow it to run a full desktop OS (OS X maybe?), provide USB and miniDisplay ports, a trackpad, and a swivel-like display. They should give it a name that connotes light weight, such as Oxygen or Feather, maybe even Air. 

That would be a mistake. Once you a attach a keyboard, trackpad, USB and run a full desktop OS, you have a laptop, not a tablet. And there's nothing wrong with a laptop. I like laptops. And if you really think a touchscreen makes a laptop better, then why don't you buy something like a touchscreen Lenovo ThinkPad X230 with Windows 7 today? Or for that matter, one of the Acer or Samsung x86 Windows 7 tablets? The fact that these things aren't a huge success (just ask HP and DELL) is an indicator that Microsoft isn't going to reverse its fortunes by slapping Metro and the number 8 on it.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #179 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Your bad experiences with software do not "doesn't have that software" make.

As a former Newton user, I can say that Apple not only had true handwriting recognition, they had it before Windows CE got it. I know. I was there.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #180 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post


As a former Newton user, I can say that Apple not only had true handwriting recognition, they had it before Windows CE got it. I know. I was there.

 

Ha! When I saw the Surface I didn't think of the Zune, I thought of the Newton. Great idea... bad implementation. The Newton never overcame its shortcomings. I see the same thing happening with the Surface. The Zune... bad idea... bad implementation.... imho.

 

I was there for the Newton as well... and the handwriting facet was between okay and great.

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post #181 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post


Microsoft does have a very nice eco system in place for their OS, it is called the internet.  There is nothing I can not find on the internet I need for my PC.  One of the biggest complaints I have with my wife's iMac is that I pretty much have to pay for everything, freeware is pretty much non-existent in the MAC world.

From my iPad

I run windows via parallel s 7 on the Mac
I wisely bought some Mac software to complement what Apple provides.

I still get the daily email from GAOTD with the free commercial software.

The reality is I have no need for all that ' free windows software' which often is a glorified KLUDGE. Mac software is so integrated it just turns out to be better in daily use.

This isn't fanboy ism but over 60 years of experience talking!

I have spent thousands and thousands over the years on Windows hardware and software only to begin looking at Apple integration after the first iPhone. I truly regret not making the switch much sooner.
post #182 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerrySwitched26 View Post


Many people think that the new touch-based OS will make a big difference.  XP, Vista and Windows 7 don't work well on a touch-based device.

And "Many people" have been oh so wrong so many times in the past because they believed the lies from Microsoft. That is just plain fact.
post #183 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dodel View Post

And "Many people" have been oh so wrong so many times in the past because they believed the lies from Microsoft. That is just plain fact.

You bring up an interesting point. Touch is widely use in mobile.

What American car company just had JD POWERS dramatically lower their rating because their American Microsoft system software was such a poor experience?

I bought a Toyota Hybrid Camry instead of a competing Ford product simply because I didn't want my precious wife to experience 'the blue screen of DEATH' while driving cutting edge tech!
post #184 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamewing View Post

By the way, I want a Surface Pro so that I can use only one device instead of having to own a computer AND a tablet.

 

 

By the way, I want a Delorean Monstertruck so that I can drive only one vehicle instead of having to own a monster truck AND a sports car.

 

The Delorean Monster Truck

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #185 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

 

Ha! When I saw the Surface I didn't think of the Zune, I thought of the Newton. Great idea... bad implementation. The Newton never overcame its shortcomings. I see the same thing happening with the Surface. The Zune... bad idea... bad implementation.... imho.

 

I was there for the Newton as well... and the handwriting facet was between okay and great.

 

Steve Jobs was right, though: I can type on the iPad a lot faster than I could write on the Newton.

 

Bragging about the quality of handwriting on the Surface is like bragging about capacity of floppy disks. Sure, you can probably plug a floppy drive into the USB port of a Surface, and get mad at anyone who disagrees with how important you think it is. That's how these forums work.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #186 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Apple 
[" url="/t/150896/microsoft-faces-major-dilemma-pricing-surface-tablets-against-ipad/160#post_2134149"]Apple should do the right thing and hold a funeral for this tablet with a kickstand. It would be the polite and proper thing to do. I don't even think that it deserves to be buried, just cremate it and get it done with.

Ha ha, yeah, they can bury it next to ol Steve-o. And in ten years, with no more true innovation like what Steve provided, you can bury Apple next to it.
post #187 of 210

I'll say it again ... this is Zune II
 

post #188 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

By the way, I want a Delorean Monstertruck so that I can drive only one vehicle instead of having to own a monster truck AND a sports car.

"Once this baby crushes 88 cars per hour…"

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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post #189 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post


Ha ha, yeah, they can bury it next to ol Steve-o. And in ten years, with no more true innovation like what Steve provided, you can bury Apple next to it.

 

Unsportsmanlike conduct in the forums! No punches below the belt.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #190 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamewing View Post

At least MS is presenting such an idea. 

 

Does Apple have one OS that can work as a computer and tablet depending on the situation? Nope. Got to have 2 devices and 2 OSes.

Does Apple have true handwriting recognition software? No. Got to buy a Windows machine.

 

And it isn't an act of faith. Currently, the Surface is the only device that will provide those capabilities. I am not tied to MS or Apple. IF Apple created such a device I would buy theirs. Same with any other manufacturer that created such a device. As it stands either MS or Apple are really the only two who can do this. BUT...MS has to deal with building hardware a massive scale...which is not something they are particularly skilled at doing. Apple doesn't have a handwriting recognition option on any of their devices. So....I might as well hope for MS to make the Surface. If it doesn't work out...my world won't fall apart.

 

It is interesting that so many Apple folks nay say the Surface, but if Apple were to make such a device that could act as a desktop/laptop/tablet all-in-one the Apple supporters would have a global orgasm. The only REAL problem with the Surface is that MS came up with it...not Apple.


You've missed my point entirely. At this stage the Surface is no more than a concept, it does not exist as a useable product. The demonstration threw out some broad ideas - but did not address specifics. Would you still 'want one' if the battery life was only two hours for example? This would be Microsoft's first attempt at building a tablet - how do you know that build quality would be acceptable, what level of failure rate would be acceptable to you - of  the two demonstrated one stopped working, their record on the only vaguely similar device they have attempted, the X-Box, was very poor, at least initially. How practical will that keyboard be to use - we just don't know at this point.

If I am considering purchasing a device that is costing a grand or so I would read some reviews, try one out in a store, check out some forums where people have bought them to hear of their experiences with the device and not just lay down the cash because a salesman tells me it's the best thing since sliced bread and the answer to all my woes.

Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
Buddha
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Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
Buddha
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post #191 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by allblue View Post


You've missed my point entirely. At this stage the Surface is no more than a concept, it does not exist as a useable product. The demonstration threw out some broad ideas - but did not address specifics. Would you still 'want one' if the battery life was only two hours for example? This would be Microsoft's first attempt at building a tablet - how do you know that build quality would be acceptable, what level of failure rate would be acceptable to you - of  the two demonstrated one stopped working, their record on the only vaguely similar device they have attempted, the X-Box, was very poor, at least initially. How practical will that keyboard be to use - we just don't know at this point.

If I am considering purchasing a device that is costing a grand or so I would read some reviews, try one out in a store, check out some forums where people have bought them to hear of their experiences with the device and not just lay down the cash because a salesman tells me it's the best thing since sliced bread and the answer to all my woes.

 

You are wasting your breath. I can almost guarantee you that Apple threw around the same idea, having full OSX run on a tablet, but came to the conclusion that a tablet and a desktop were two distinctly different animals and, rightly so, decided to move forward into the future of computing where, at some point, the two, tablet and desktop, would merge and propagate in a way that isn't quite visible at this point in time. I just wonder what the reaction would have been from the other side of the fence had Apple said everything that Microsoft said last week and didn't have a working sample and wouldn't have one for almost a year in the future. Oh, the cat calls, the screaming, the shouting...

 

As I've said before... Microsoft will drag us kicking and screaming into the past.

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post #192 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

The last MS product I bought was an upgrade to XP from NT (so I could run it on Parallels).  It cost me $250 for the upgrade and every reinstall, I had to install NT first (several hours tending the machine) followed by the XP upgrade (several more hours tending the machine) -- then several more hours tending the "required" update downloads and installs.

The "packaging" on the XP upgrade looked as if it were for a whale condom 1wink.gif

We no longer have any MS products on our computers -- so the whale has become celibate.

you are correct sir. (in case you ever need to install win 7 on someone elses computer) to installing vista, windows 7, on the cheap is to buy the upgrade version, install it and whenit asks you to enter the license key, do not; just skip the step. then when the install has completed, rerun the win7 install disk, and then enter the win 7 key... works!...
post #193 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by kent909 View Post


Do you have any interest in sharing where or how the rest of us can get a Quad Core 3Ghz computer for $500?

Tigerdirect

post #194 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinitaBoy View Post

Um, how do you know this, Tim?  Are you on the MS development team?  Are you privy to the manufacturing specs actually submitted to a plant in China or South Korea?  Please don't answer "I've read the website info" or "I saw the LA presentation."  Microsoft is INFAMOUS for announcing/leaking products that never actually make it to market, so the actual name of the "Surface" should be "The Surface VW" (for "Vaporware").  Hope to hear more insider information.

Are you kidding me? It says right on the Surface website that a full-sized USB port is on the device. Saying not to believe what the website says is completely ridiculous.

 

http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx

post #195 of 210

thoroughly ninjaed

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post #196 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimUSCA View Post

Are you kidding me? It says right on the Surface website that a full-sized USB port is on the device. Saying not to believe what the website says is completely ridiculous.

http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx

Microsoft has never lied about anything. And anything on their website must be true. I've got a great deal on a bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you.
post #197 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimUSCA View Post

Are you kidding me? It says right on the Surface website that a full-sized USB port is on the device. Saying not to believe what the website says is completely ridiculous.

No, he's correct. The existence of a USB port does not imply what has been said.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #198 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimUSCA View Post

Are you kidding me? It says right on the Surface website that a full-sized USB port is on the device. Saying not to believe what the website says is completely ridiculous.

http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx

I don't think anyone has fully addressed your comment yet. Having a USB port does not mean that the OS has the drivers and other software to understand what you wish to do with it.

One thing MS (and Android) has infamously done over the years is state one thing, which is factual, with an implication of something else.

I assume you remember the issue with 32-bit and 64-bit Windows drivers. Now consider that the ARM-based Surface will be another architecture that will require new drivers for it. That means that everything you've ever plugged into WinPC that worked right away with Plug-n-Play will not work unless it the appropriate drivers. Again, just the existence of a USB port means nothing in and of itself.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #199 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by kent909 View Post


Do you have any interest in sharing where or how the rest of us can get a Quad Core 3Ghz computer for $500?

I noticed someone above said TigerDirect but thought no way. Surprisingly you can, an i5 CPU Lenovo including 6GB DDR and 1TB HDD!

 

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3163417&CatId=4928

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post #200 of 210
You're incorrect, the title clearly states Surface cost. Microsoft is the only one making ghe surface not OEM's. So either the title is wrong or the data is.
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