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Microsoft faces 'major dilemma' pricing Surface tablets against iPad - Page 3

post #81 of 210
Quote:

Nice trolling. Take your BS somewhere else.

 

And you please take your attitude elsewhere as well.  

post #82 of 210

It's common knowledge that Apple sells 90% of all PCs that are priced over $1000 - where the margins are.

 

PC users cheap out at every turn.

post #83 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamewing View Post

BS. Most people I know with who use Windows have high-end systems (both laptops and desktops).  If you want to state that people who don't want to spend a lot of money buy low-cost PCs, that is fine, but your blanket statement is worthless. So are all people who buy Mac Minis for the most part cheap?

 

 

It's common knowledge that Apple sells 90% of all PCs that are priced over $1000 - where the margins are.

 

You are in the vast minority of PC users.

post #84 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

People who use Windows and people who buy PC's tend for the most part to be cheap. MS is going to have trouble moving tablets at a price point that is too much for these cheap people to pay.

 

 

People who use Windows exceed 90% of the population.

 

I suspect that they cannot be stereotyped like that.

 

How about those who buy Alienware laptops?  Are they cheap?

post #85 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by kent909 View Post

The thing that seems most relevant to me is the OS. It is listed at $90. If Microsoft is really going to get into the hardware business, needs to look at pricing differently. They need to subsidize the Surface by providing Windows to the OEM for $5-$10 license fee. They have already spent the money developing Windows 8 and the cost of doing that can be returned through sales of standard PC's to the Enterprise and consumers.  They don't have to sell RT or the license on the Pro version for $90. Apple will be selling Mountain Lion for $20 and that works out to $4 per computer. If it is delivered electronically than easier still. I was looking at the retail packaging the other day with my copy of Windows Vista and it was a ridiculous in a waste of materials and design. All I wanted was the software, not some elaborately designed case for a disc. I anticipate that MS will find a way to muff this product just like they did with Windows Phone last week. 

 

The last MS product I bought was an upgrade to XP from NT (so I could run it on Parallels).  It cost me $250 for the upgrade and every reinstall, I had to install NT first (several hours tending the machine) followed by the XP upgrade (several more hours tending the machine) -- then several more hours tending the "required" update downloads and installs.

 

The "packaging" on the XP upgrade looked as if it were for a whale condom ;)

 

We no longer have any MS products on our computers -- so the whale has become celibate.

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post #86 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by studentx View Post

It's common knowledge that Apple sells 90% of all PCs that are priced over $1000 - where the margins are.

 

PC users cheap out at every turn.

 

Exactly.  And they're learning, from the App Store example, that software can be cheap too.

The old PC era "expensive software on cheap hardware" model won't last much longer.

 

Meanwhile (speaking of margins) Microsoft is trying to charge Surface OEMs $85 per copy of Windows RT.

That's probably about 50% of the total hardware cost.  They can kiss that razor-thin margin goodbye.

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post #87 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by markbyrn View Post


If you're going to buy a Surface Pro for the backwards compatibility with traditional Windows software, than you need to have a keyboard, mouse/trackpad, and more power for the Intel chip. So, why not buy an ultrabook or notebook, and dispense with this kitschy click in the keyboard / kickstand contraption? I guess the MS touts are desperate to buy into this Ballmer dog and pony show.

 

 

I think that the dual-use aspect would be the reason.  It functions as a tablet, if and when you want to use simple applets.  But it functions as a lightweight full laptop when you want to use full versions of software.

 

I think that versatility is the answer you are seeking.  An ultrabook will not work for quick and simple tablet apps, but the Surface Pro will do that.  

post #88 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dodel View Post

The Surface is vapor at this point, so there is no way to answer any questions about it. If someone wants a Windows Tablet/laptop hybrid today they can buy a Lenovo X230t price , but at a price of around $1200-1600 for the Lenovo, the Macbook Air is better and a better buy. Windows tablets have been around for a decade and no one buys them. Why would anyone expect anything different with this new, non-existent version? Is anyone buying Ultrabooks? Why can't MSFT come up with something unique rather than just a clone of an Apple product?

 

 

Perhaps they should have called it the Vapor?

 

I'll bet a steak dinner that we never see this product.....ever.

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post #89 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasc View Post

 

There is an error here.  All Surface tablets will be running Windows 8, but not all will be fully backwards compatible.    I suggest the author changes the sentence to only refer to Windows 8 x86 tablets.

 

 

Only the Pro runs Windows 8.  The other one runs Windows RT.    It is incorrect to say that all Surface tablets will run Windows 8.

post #90 of 210

All Surface Slablets will runs Windows.

 

Nuff said.

post #91 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dodel View Post

 Why would anyone expect anything different with this new, non-existent version?
 

 

 

Many people think that the new touch-based OS will make a big difference.  XP, Vista and Windows 7 don't work well on a touch-based device.

post #92 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

The other part of the analysis that they are leaving out, besides the investment made in apps, as all the hardware investment people have made as well. There are so many Idevice accessory you can buy on the market, not that anyone really needs most of them but it is a huge market and people have lots of this stuff. In order for them to switch they will have to give it and maybe buy a replacement product if it even exist.

 

 

 

If Apple replaces the 30 pin connector, as they are rumored to be planning, this factor will be moot.

post #93 of 210

This just in....

 

(FAKE PRESS RELEASE)

 

In attempts to monetize the Windows 8 "ecosystem", Microsoft will launch an "app store".

 

This will allow users to install things called apps onto devices like the Surface.

 

Observers have pointed out that the Redmond WA. based software giant is taking this move in an attempt to compete with Apple's wildly popular iPad.  

 

Speculation is that manufacturing the Surface will pose quite a challenge from a profit margin perspective.  Historically, Microsoft has been content to sit back and rake in profits from licensing agreements.

 

---------------------------

 

Historically, Microsoft has hit home runs with making mice, keyboards and the Zune.  That folks, is the extent of their manufacturing prowess.....and their ecosystem.

 

They are gonna get hit with a big bag of hurt.

 

Jobs was right when he said "they don't think of original ideas". 

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post #94 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by boredumb View Post

C'mon, guys - we aren't comparing apples and oranges here ... the simple fact is, the iPad is a device, the Surface will be a computer, in tablet form (at least according to MS). ...

 

You're not even paying attention here.  What a lot of nonsense.  

 

In the first case, you're making a wholly artificial distinction (device vs. computer), that just doesn't stand up at all.  The fact is they are both computers and the same kinds of activities are accomplished on both devices.  Secondly, even if you distinguish between the two classes of device (let's say one's a "PC" and one's a "Post PC"), you're missing the basic fact that the Windows Surface is both.   Surface RT is the same kind of device as the iPad, Surface Pro is the same kind of device as a MacBook Air, but with a touch screen.  

post #95 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerrySwitched26 View Post

 

 

I think that the dual-use aspect would be the reason.  It functions as a tablet, if and when you want to use simple applets.  But it functions as a lightweight full laptop when you want to use full versions of software.

 

I think that versatility is the answer you are seeking.  An ultrabook will not work for quick and simple tablet apps, but the Surface Pro will do that.  

 

What "quick and simple tablet apps"?

 

At their "show and tell" announcement they couldn't even show the "NetFlix" app running.   Do you really believe there will be as many Metro apps as there apps for Kindle or Android Tablets (not to mention iPads)?

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post #96 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purge View Post

Quote:

Originally Posted by BallaOnnaBudget View Post

The price estimate for a "surface table" as the title implies are incorrect making the entire article flawed.  Microsoft is the OEM therefore why would they have to pay $90 for their own software.  So add $90 of profit to each of those estimates to get a more accurate picture. 

 

The implied cost is based on external manufacturers, not MSFT themselves. Were MS to license for free, or a significantly reduced rate, then that discount would apply.

This challenge is no different than any other sector though. Were a steel cutting business to offer welding services, they risk competing with their clients.

 

I think that Microsoft has no choice - the manufacturers missed out on capitalizing on the touch interface that W7 brought to the table - and Microsoft does not want Windows 8 to be in the same boat. 

 

I fully expect to see a Kinect 2.0 camera that turns desktop PCs into "Minority Report-like" interface, and foregoing the hardware change required for touchpads and touchscreen monitors (which are less practical).

 

If Microsoft doesn't pay the same licensing fee for their software as do their partners, their partners will take that as an attempt to squeeze them out of the market and therefore will not be so inclined to buy the software in the first place; they'd just stick to Android. The only way to maintain the relationship with their partners is if they subject themselves to the same costs as their partners (regarding software, leaving only the build-quality and hardware components as differentiators). They can't simply absorb the cost like Apple can. They have to make it an even playing field for all their partners. Remember Microsoft is aiming for widespread adoption of its operating system. Why should any partner be willing to play ball?

post #97 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkichline View Post

Have you tried the Mac App Store? Plenty of free titles in there. Also, you get what you pay for. Developers like to eat

 

I have to agree, if I can play Diablo 3 on this new tablet count me sold.  Something iPad will never accomplish.

post #98 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff View Post

 

No Dilemmas for Microsoft. All dilemma for the 'partners' (beg for crumbs from MS, or switch to Android?)

 

When life gives you dilemmas, make dilemmanade.

post #99 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerrySwitched26 View Post

 

 

If Apple replaces the 30 pin connector, as they are rumored to be planning, this factor will be moot.


True, but I suspect that Apple is moving away from connect as the way of syncing and sharing content. They appear to be going full wireless these days and over the air updates and such. Not to say the others guys will not do the same, but, again Apple had a cleaner solution and a much larger install based of products that support them. The other things Apple is not charging them a licensing to us it, unlike M$ who wants to extract every nickel. Notice how M$ was unsuccessful at luring developer away to develop games for Zune and such, it failed.

 

This who ecosystem is far more complicated today and something many companies are failing to understand everyday including the wall street types.

post #100 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

What if the price to compete with the Air?  Too me, it seems the surface will compete in that market with tablet as a secondary.  I, right now am torn between a new tablet or a ultrabook.  At home I love the simplicity of my iPad 1st Gen but on the road I need horsepower.  This may be right up my road and I see not having to own two devices which would cost me around $2000.
 

What 'horsepower' do you need on the road that you don't need at home!?

 

Unless, of course, you do no work at all at home that you do when you're on the road.....

post #101 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

For the low-end ARM models running Windows RT, he believes Microsoft will have to undercut the iPad on price to find any success. But in doing so, Microsoft could make it impossible for its Windows partners to compete.

 

Windows partners?  For Surface?  Kiss them all goodbye.  Few if any will pay the $85 sucker price for each Windows RT license.

 

And those few OEMs that do pay the sucker price for Windows RT licenses will be killed off anyway.  Probably very soon.

Because it's looking more and more likely that Microsoft will need to buy Nokia, or at least enough of Nokia to build Surfaces.

Simply for the cost savings.  No mark-up on the hardware because they'd own the manufacturer.

 

It really looks like Microsoft is putting the smack down on Nokia right now, just to drop their market cap as much as possible.

Hence the scary announcement that Windows Phone 8 won't run on any existing Lumia, which did in fact drop NOK significantly.

NOK was trading at $2.50 on Wednesday the 20th.  Microsoft made the announcement on the 21st, NOK immediately slid.

It's now trading at $2.20.  Down 12%.  

 

NOK Market cap is barely $8 billion now.  How much lower does it need to go before you snap it up and turn it into the

next Danger, Ballmer?

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post #102 of 210
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Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post

it is amusing to see, nowadays, a large company like Microsoft run by amateurs.

 

Every professional in the planet would see, without beginning a whole tablet division, that the low price versus high quality is one of the key points nobody can displace Apple from their current #1 position. 

 

Apple invests in manufacture methods and technology to reduce production cost. Apple buys components by the trucks and have large discounts- they buy so many components that they can almost say how much they want to pay for a given component and the vendor will accept, because the profit is on the monumental volume.

 

Just an amateur would prepare a product for the market without having a strategy. They are so amateur their tablet crash on the presentation to the press... hahaha

 

Conclusion: the tablet is already a flop and will go nowhere and Steve is laughing beyond the grave.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head.

 

It's all a techwriter/Windows fanboy wet-dream, and nothing more.

post #103 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

 

You've gotta be kidding.

 

1) Very little freeware, if any, measures up to the standards of paid software. A lot of the free junk floating around the "Microsoft ecosystem called The Internet" (LMAO) is barely usable, or has a lousy UI, or is poorly-supported. But YMMV. You *might* just be able to find everything free that happens to meet your needs. But form an objective standpoint, you get what you pay for. Just look at the state of Linux today.  Yikes!   All the best software will cost you money.

 

2) The Mac App Store has a Free section. Lots of goodies there, for each category. That's not "pretty much non-existent." Though I wouldn't mind hearing what "pretty much" means. I'm guessing in this case it's just a synonym for "nebulous."

 

3) You or your wife bought an iMac. Apple hardware. You're telling me you can't afford software?? You spent over $1000 on an Apple computer so you can go on the cheap on the software side?

 

Even a nice suite of productivity software doesn't need to cost hundreds of dollars. 


1 - Typical MAC answer, nothing to back it but an opinion.

 

2 - In the PC world, the MAC app store is pretty much non-existent.

 

3 - To spend money to just spend money seems to be the Apple way.  What I can afford and what I chose to pay for are two different things.

post #104 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvidal View Post


Hello, Mr. Ballmer!


Hello Mr. Jobs, oh wait.

post #105 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerrySwitched26 View Post

 

 

If Apple replaces the 30 pin connector, as they are rumored to be planning, this factor will be moot.

 

Apple could easy offer a 30-19 pin adapter for those who need it!

 

Apple introduced the 30-pin connector as kind of a thin (height) universal connector for a class of (then) thin devices.  It has the ability to support USB 2 and FireWire plus some other capabilities:

 

http://pinouts.ru/PortableDevices/ipod_pinout.shtml

 

Since its introduction, devices have gotten a lot thinner and they no longer support/require some of the pinouts.

 

 

So, I suspect that Apple is looking for a thinner, more tailored, less expensive connector.  I suspect it will drop FireWire and support USB 2 and 3.

 

 

Apple has always been willing to refine their devices and abandon legacy hardware that is no longer needed -- If they didn't we'd still be using, SCSI, AppleTalk, Centronics, RS-232, and DeskTop bus cables and connectors.

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post #106 of 210
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Originally Posted by studentx View Post

It's common knowledge that Apple sells 90% of all PCs that are priced over $1000 - where the margins are.

 

PC users cheap out at every turn.


Like 95% of PC users.  Inexpensive and cheap are two different things, something some just do not seem to understand.

post #107 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

 

I have to agree, if I can play Diablo 3 on this new tablet count me sold.  Something iPad will never accomplish.

So you are comparing the iPad with ARM processor against the Surface Pro with i5 processor?! You do know that you cannot run windows software on the ARM Surface, don't you?! Meaning your Diablo 3 will only run on Surface Pro, which will most likely cost twice as much as the iPad.

post #108 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post


1 - Typical MAC answer, nothing to back it but an opinion.

 

2 - In the PC world, the MAC app store is pretty much non-existent.

 

3 - To spend money to just spend money seems to be the Apple way.  What I can afford and what I chose to pay for are two different things.

 

Typical PC user points. What software are you trying to find for you iMac that are not available?

post #109 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

So you are comparing the iPad with ARM processor against the Surface Pro with i5 processor?! You do know that you cannot run windows software on the ARM Surface, don't you?! Meaning your Diablo 3 will only run on Surface Pro, which will most likely cost twice as much as the iPad.


Yeah, as sarcastically as I could possibly say yeah.  Thats the whole point????  Are you even following this thread?

post #110 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

What I can afford and what I chose to pay for are two different things.

What you can afford and what you legally get to have, however, is one singular thing.

Also, and I'm certain you know this so bringing it to your attention is serving a different purpose entirely, it's "Mac".

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post #111 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post


1 - Typical MAC answer, nothing to back it but an opinion.

 

2 - In the PC world, the MAC app store is pretty much non-existent.

 

3 - To spend money to just spend money seems to be the Apple way.  What I can afford and what I chose to pay for are two different things.

 

1. Which is more than MS had to show when it comes to the Surface Pro.

 

2. The Surface Pro is pretty much non-existent

 

3. Why anyone would choose to spend money on vaporware is pretty much beyond me... that seems like spending money to just spend money.

 

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post #112 of 210
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Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


What you can afford and what you legally get to have, however, is one singular thing.
Also, and I'm certain you know this so bringing it to your attention is serving a different purpose entirely, it's "Mac".


I like MAC because it brings out the Apple police.  I also like iTouch as well, gets them spun up.

post #113 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

 

1. Which is more than MS had to show when it comes to the Surface Pro.

 

2. The Surface Pro is pretty much non-existent

 

3. Why anyone would choose to spend money on vaporware is pretty much beyond me... that seems like spending money to just spend money.

 

lol.gif


I think you have been on your island too long, not one thing you said here makes any sense.

post #114 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

I like MAC because it brings out the Apple police.  I also like iTouch as well, gets them spun up.

It also invalidates all of your arguments. Think about it: if the person is too lazy to spell something correctly, why should I care about what he's saying? He obviously has put no thought nor time into his argument, therefore it becomes… you.

Take a leaf out of the books of better trolls than you if you want what you're saying to be anything but mocked and derided.

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post #115 of 210
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Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post

 

Windows partners?  For Surface?  Kiss them all goodbye.  Few if any will pay the $85 sucker price for each Windows RT license.

 

And those few OEMs that do pay the sucker price for Windows RT licenses will be killed off anyway.  Probably very soon.

Because it's looking more and more likely that Microsoft will need to buy Nokia, or at least enough of Nokia to build Surfaces.

Simply for the cost savings.  No mark-up on the hardware because they'd own the manufacturer.

 

It really looks like Microsoft is putting the smack down on Nokia right now, just to drop their market cap as much as possible.

Hence the scary announcement that Windows Phone 8 won't run on any existing Lumia, which did in fact drop NOK significantly.

NOK was trading at $2.50 on Wednesday the 20th.  Microsoft made the announcement on the 21st, NOK immediately slid.

It's now trading at $2.20.  Down 12%.  

 

NOK Market cap is barely $8 billion now.  How much lower does it need to go before you snap it up and turn it into the

next Danger, Ballmer?

 

I read NOK market cap at $1.3 Billion.  RIMM is also at a 52 week low with a market cap of $4.6 Billion...

 

Not much of a choice, really...


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 6/25/12 at 1:08pm
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post #116 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


It also invalidates all of your arguments. Think about it: if the person is too lazy to spell something correctly, why should I care about what he's saying? He obviously has put no thought nor time into his argument, therefore it becomes… you.
Take a leaf out of the books of better trolls than you if you want what you're saying to be anything but mocked and derided.


But you do care, you have commented several times.

post #117 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post


I like MAC because it brings out the Apple police.  I also like iTouch as well, gets them spun up.

 

So you are admitting outright that you are a troll.  

 

I mean you are saying here that you use incorrect terms on purpose just to inconvenience and rile people up.  It seems to me that a ban would be completely justifiable if you are going to be so foolish as to admit what you're doing.  

post #118 of 210

The M$ announcement has 2 major problems:

  • no hint of how they can match the Android and Apple app ecosystems without nuking their existing app pricing model
  • it could scare off OEMs who have the option to develop for Android instead

 

More here.

 

I've just finished reading Walter Isaacson's biography of Jobs and one of the fascinating details is the provenance of the iPad. A Microsoft employee at a party kept on pushing his "vision" of a table that would rule the market to Jobs, some time before the advent of the iPhone. Jobs was convinced he had it all wrong (keyboard and stylus featured) and set his people on designing something better. Then they started to worry that someone doing music right on a cell phone would take the iPod market away, so they switched to doing a phone that also worked as an iPod. That explains why there was so much in place already for the iPod, not just a lucky coincidence that the iPhone could adapt to a tablet.

 

Fast forward to 2012, and Microsoft still thinks whats wrong with the iPad is no keyboard and no stylus. When will they get it?

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post #119 of 210
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Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

So you are admitting outright that you are a troll.  

 

I mean you are saying here that you use incorrect terms on purpose just to inconvenience and rile people up.  It seems to me that a ban would be completely justifiable if you are going to be so foolish as to admit what you're doing.  


If an incorrect term riles someone up, troll is the least of their worries.  If someone feels the need to comment about incorrect terms and their ability to rile someone up, troll is the least of their worries, it goes on.

 

Oh and "inconvenience" really?  A forum post can inconvenience someone?  Thanks for the laugh. 

post #120 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post


I think you have been on your island too long, not one thing you said here makes any sense.

 

Oh, I was just following your lead...

 

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