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post #41 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

You're confused. Re-read what I wrote and see if you can understand it.

Oh come on MJ, you've been saying practically everything is unconstitutional on this forum for ages, just like jazzguru, I might add. O'RomneyCare you were sure to pronounce as unconstitutional too, but fortunately it's not just your particular political views that make the grade. 

 

Personally, I welcome Americas new more civilised society that is coming about through this vital legislation, even if it doesn't go the full stretch. I know Europeans have been scratching their heads at Americans for some time over allowing themselves to be ruled in something as important as their health by these corporate killers, who only understand one word, "deny". 

 

A very proud/hopefull day to me, and I'm sure a lot of others too. Keep up the fight people.

We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #42 of 66

Haven't read the thread through yet, but my take on the SC decision is that it is far more political than it is being given credit for.

 

The conservative Chief Justice sided with a faction he's not usually aligned with to push this through. The result is that the November election is now all about ObamaCare.

 

And those who were less inclined to support Romney [independents, Conservative Christians and Libertarians] are now firmly inclined to mark ballots for Romney.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #43 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Oh come on MJ, you've been saying practically everything is unconstitutional on this forum for ages, just like jazzguru, I might add.

 

Yes, much of what the Federal government of the US does today is, in my view, unconstitutional. But I don't see how that is relevant to the Assertion I made. Which is, again:

 

Just because I don't have a better way to decide doesn't mean that the decisions that are being made are good and correct.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Personally, I welcome Americas new more civilised society that is coming about through this vital legislation, even if it doesn't go the full stretch.

 

In your view a less free society is more civilized. Got it.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #44 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Haven't read the thread through yet, but my take on the SC decision is that it is far more political than it is being given credit for.

 

The conservative Chief Justice sided with a faction he's not usually aligned with to push this through. The result is that the November election is now all about ObamaCare.

 

And those who were less inclined to support Romney [independents, Conservative Christians and Libertarians] are now firmly inclined to mark ballots for Romney.

 

I think you're right. They just kicked this back to the legislature (and President). Here's someone else that agrees.

 

I still don't like the rather frightening precedent it has set though.


Edited by MJ1970 - 6/28/12 at 2:44pm

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #45 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Haven't read the thread through yet, but my take on the SC decision is that it is far more political than it is being given credit for.

 

The conservative Chief Justice sided with a faction he's not usually aligned with to push this through. The result is that the November election is now all about ObamaCare.

 

And those who were less inclined to support Romney [independents, Conservative Christians and Libertarians] are now firmly inclined to mark ballots for Romney.

 

Count me as one libertarian (lower-case L) who still refuses to vote for Romney.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #46 of 66

 

 

 

12.8 Million Americans Receive Insurance Rebates

Before health care reform, insurance companies routinely spent up to 40% of premiums on

overhead and administrative costs. Today, thanks to Obamacare, insurance companies are

required to spend at least 80% of your premium on your health care—and if they don’t, you

get a rebate. This summer, nearly 12.8 million Americans will start receiving their rebate

checks, averaging $151 per household—and totaling more than $1.1 billion.


Edited by Hands Sandon - 6/28/12 at 6:01pm
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #47 of 66

Oh joy. An Obama operative has chosen to spam the thread with more Obama propaganda.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #48 of 66

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #49 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Oh joy. An Obama operative has chosen to spam the thread with more Obama propaganda.

Even your less than original linguistic scribbles have me grinning widely today. Nothing can spoil this Supremacy!

 

Maybe one day, you'll get the last laugh politically, but for the time being I guess you're in hell. lol.gif

 

 

Here's an update-

 

 

3.1 Million Young Americans Gain Health Coverage

 

 

Before the Affordable Care Act, young people could be kicked off their parents' health insurance as soon as they turned 18. But thanks to health care reform, 3.1 million young Americans who would otherwise be uninsured have been able to stay on their family's coverage until age 26—coverage that often includes free preventive care, like checkups and flu shots.

We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #50 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Even your less than original linguistic scribbles have me grinning widely today. Nothing can spoil this Supremacy!

 

WTF?!

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Maybe one day, you'll get the last laugh politically, but for the time being I guess you're in hell. lol.gif

 

My goal isn't last laughs (politically or otherwise). My goal is individual liberty even for people, like yourself, whose goal is to reduce individual liberty on the pathway to trying to create your Utopian world shaped by imposing (forcibly if necessary) your values onto others while, in reality, creating a hell for all of us to live in.

 

But...whatever.

 

Being in hell? Maybe. That may well be an apt description of life after a few years of ObamaCare. However, what I really find interesting that you'd laugh at someone you think is in "hell". This must be the liberal in you shining through.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

3.1 Million Young Americans Gain Health Coverage

 

 

Before the Affordable Care Act, young people could be kicked off their parents' health insurance as soon as they turned 18. But thanks to health care reform, 3.1 million young Americans who would otherwise be uninsured have been able to stay on their family's coverage until age 26—coverage that often includes free preventive care, like checkups and flu shots.

 

And still more Obama propaganda. Are you paid by them or just whoring for them for free?


Edited by MJ1970 - 6/28/12 at 6:48pm

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #51 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

WTF?!

 

 

 

My goal isn't last laughs (politically or otherwise). But...whatever. Being in hell? Maybe. That may well be an apt description of life after a few years of ObamaCare. However, what I really find interesting that you'd laugh at someone you think is in "hell". This must be the liberal in you shining through.

 

 

 

And still more Obama propaganda. Are you paid by them or just whoring for them for free?

I'll leave you tonight with a healthy whore-

 

 

Before the Affordable Care Act

 

When individuals who can afford to buy insurance choose not to, they shift their health care costs to all of us. Today, families with insurance pay a hidden tax of nearly $1,000 per year to cover health care for the uninsured.

 

 

 

By 2014

 

 

 

If you already have insurance, the law’s individual responsibility requirement won’t change your coverage. When fully implemented, this common-sense reform will help make sure all families have the coverage they need with:

  • New tax credits: To help middle-class families buy a plan in new state marketplaces for affordable insurance, putting coverage within reach of nearly every American
  • Individual responsibility: Only 1 percent of all Americans, those who can afford coverage but choose not to purchase it, are expected to owe a fine—which offsets the medical costs they are passing on to others. People who get insurance through their employer, through Medicare, or who cannot afford insurance are exempt from the rule.
  • Lower costs: Making coverage more affordable for the vast majority of Americans who already have insurance
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #52 of 66

I'll let you let Obama do your thinking for you (and accept everything he says without question). I'll think for myself.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #53 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Before the Affordable Care Act, young people could be kicked off their parents' health insurance as soon as they turned 18. But thanks to health care reform, 3.1 million young Americans who would otherwise be uninsured have been able to stay on their family's coverage until age 26—coverage that often includes free preventive care, like checkups and flu shots.

 

Just out of curiosity, do you actually believe that there are no economic consequences for this addition to policy?

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #54 of 66

So what we are all humans and we share with the less unfortunate who cannot afford this. This is what life is all about.Not being greedy!
 

post #55 of 66

You cannot force people to be charitable. That is contrary to the very definition of charity, which is giving of your own free will and choice.

 

Take away that free will and choice and it ceases to be charity, and becomes nothing more than institutionalized theft.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #56 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Pheww!

 

This will destroy the repubs and guarantee Obama is re-elected because Americans will now see all the substantial benefits for themselves. All the lying needs to end now. 

 

LOL.  This has energized Republicans.  Romney raised $4.2 million yesterday.  The law remains unpopular by a margin of 55-40.  I wish the mandate had been thrown out, but politically, this only helps Republicans.   
 
As for the law, you're so unbelievably naive and wrong. It is a horrible law, whether it was upheld or not.  
 
  • It will cost $2 Trillion over ten years
  • It raises more than 20 taxes
  • It burdens the middle class.  You must buy insurance whether or not you have a job, or pay a fine into the thousands.  If you make a decent middle class wage (say, $50,000) you make too much money to get any assistance in buying care.
  • It will tax "Cadillac" (read: good) health care plans already in place. This includes millions of public sector workers like teachers, police (etc) who have strong benefits.  
  • It ends the entire concept of what insurance is.  One can simply wait until he's sick to buy insurance. 
  • Depending on enforcement, people may actually go to jail.  If they don't pay their taxes (fines), the IRS could very well take this action.  
  • The pre-existing condition language will end private insurance.  An insurance company must take you regardless of pre-existing conditions, and will be extremely limited in its ability to charge more.  Many preventative service will be mandated not only to be covered, but free to the patient.  How long do you think companies will continue to stay in the health insurance business?  
  • Many doctors are already refusing to take new Medicaid patients.  This will only grow as a problem.
  • It does nothing to deal with the real costs of healthcare, namely that the consumer has no interest in what the services cost, tort reform, and interstate purchasing.  
  • Demand for "free" services will exacerbate our shortage of doctors, wait times and drug availability.  

 

 

Now, on being upheld:  This decision sets a horrifying precedent.  The government can now tax anything you do and don't do.  Under the decision, the government could pass a law stating that if you don't buy 10 pounds of broccoli a month, you get fined (err...taxed).  That's correct, the government can now tax the lack of economic activity.  In fact, it can now tax ANY activity or lack thereof, right down to eating habits and exercise.   I frankly am shocked and saddened that this could happen in the the United States of America.  A sad, sad day, indeed. 

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #57 of 66

Oh, SDW.  Take off your partisan blinders for a moment.  People don't hate the provisions of Obamacare.  Republicans just hate Obama.  Without that name attached to the bill, suddenly a vast majority of Americans are totally in favor of the Affordable Care Act.  

 

 

Quote:
 

The new Reuters-Ipsos poll finds that Obamacare remains deeply unpopular; 56 percent of Americans oppose the law, versus only 44 percent who favor it. The poll also finds that strong majorities of Americans favor the individual provisions in the law -- the hated individual mandate excepted, of course.

What’s particularly interesting about this poll is that solid majorities of Republicans favor most of the law’s main provisions, too.

I asked Ipsos to send over a partisan breakdown of the data. Key points:

* Eighty percent of Republicans favor “creating an insurance pool where small businesses and uninsured have access to insurance exchanges to take advantage of large group pricing benefits.” That’s backed by 75 percent of independents.

* Fifty-seven percent of Republicans support “providing subsidies on a sliding scale to aid individuals and families who cannot afford health insurance.” That’s backed by 67 percent of independents.

* Fifty-four percent of Republicans favor “requiring companies with more than 50 employees to provide insurance for their employers.” That’s backed by 75 percent of independents.

* Fifty two percent of Republicans favor “allowing children to stay on parents insurance until age 26.” That’s backed by 69 percent of independents.

* Seventy eight percent of Republicans support “banning insurance companies from denying coverage for pre-existing conditions; 86 percent of Republicans favor “banning insurance companies from cancelling policies because a person becomes ill.” Those are backed by 82 percent of independents and 87 percent of independents.

* One provision that isn’t backed by a majority of Republicans: The one “expanding Medicaid to families with incomes less than $30,000 per year.”

“Most Republicans want to have good health coverage,” Ipsos research director Chris Jackson tells me. “They just don’t necessarily like what it is Obama is doing.”

I’d add that Republicans and independents favor regulation of the health insurance system in big numbers. But the law has become so defined by the individual mandate — not to mention Obama himself — that public sentiment on the reforms themselves has been entirely drowned out. It’s another sign of the conservative messaging triumph in this fight and the failure of Dems to make the case for the law. And it suggests that if the law is struck down, Dems might be able to salvage at least something from the wreckage by refocusing the debate on the idividual reforms they’ve been championing — and what Republicans would replace them with, if anything.

 

 

Oh, and here's your beloved Quantum Romney vehemently supporting the individual mandate in 2009.

 

 

 

Quote:
 

Because of President Obama's frantic approach, health care has run off the rails. For the sake of 47 million uninsured Americans, we need to get it back on track.

 

Health care cannot be handled the same way as the stimulus and cap-and-trade bills. With those, the president stuck to the old style of lawmaking: He threw in every special favor imaginable, ground it up and crammed it through a partisan Democratic Congress. Health care is simply too important to the economy, to employment and to America's families to be larded up and rushed through on an artificial deadline. There's a better way. And the lessons we learned in Massachusetts could help Washington find it.

 

No other state has made as much progress in covering their uninsured as Massachusetts. The bill that made it happen wasn't a rush job. Shortly after becoming governor, I worked in a bipartisan fashion with Democrats to insure all our citizens. It took almost two years to find a solution. When we did, it passed the 200-member legislature with only two dissenting votes. It had the support of the business community, the hospital sector and insurers. For health care reform to succeed in Washington, the president must finally do what he promised during the campaign: Work with Republicans as well as Democrats.

 

Massachusetts also proved that you don't need government insurance. Our citizens purchase private, free-market medical insurance. There is no "public option." With more than 1,300 health insurance companies, a federal government insurance company isn't necessary. It would inevitably lead to massive taxpayer subsidies, to lobbyist-inspired coverage mandates and to the liberals' dream: a European-style single-payer system. To find common ground with skeptical Republicans and conservative Democrats, the president will have to jettison left-wing ideology for practicality and dump the public option.

 

Our experience also demonstrates that getting every citizen insured doesn't have to break the bank. First, we established incentives for those who were uninsured to buy insurance. Using tax penalties, as we did, or tax credits, as others have proposed, encourages "free riders" to take responsibility for themselves rather than pass their medical costs on to others. This doesn't cost the government a single dollar. Second, we helped pay for our new program by ending an old one — something government should do more often. The federal government sends an estimated $42 billion to hospitals that care for the poor: Use those funds instead to help the poor buy private insurance, as we did.

 

When our bill passed three years ago, the legislature projected that our program would cost $725 million in 2009. At $723 million, next year's forecast is pretty much on target. When you calculate all the savings, including that from the free hospital care we eliminated, the net cost to the state is approximately $350 million. The watchdog Massachusetts Taxpayers Foundation concluded that our program's cost is "relatively modest" and "well within initial projections."

 

And if subsidies and coverages are reined in, as I've suggested, the Massachusetts program could actually break even. One thing is certain: The president must insist on a program that doesn't add to our spending burden. We simply cannot afford another trillion-dollar mistake.

The Massachusetts reform aimed at getting virtually all our citizens insured. In that, it worked: 98% of our citizens are insured, 440,000 previously uninsured are covered and almost half of those purchased insurance on their own, with no subsidy. But overall, health care inflation has continued its relentless rise. Here is where the federal government can do something we could not: Take steps to stop or slow medical inflation.

 

At the core of our health cost problem is an incentive problem. Patients don't care what treatments cost once they pass the deductible. And providers are paid more when they do more; they are paid for quantity, not quality. We will tame runaway costs only when we change incentives. We might do what some countries have done: Require patients to pay a portion of their bill, except for certain conditions. And providers could be paid an annual fixed fee for the primary care of an individual and a separate fixed fee for the treatment of a specific condition. These approaches have far more promise than the usual bromides of electronic medical records, transparency and pay-for-performance, helpful though they will be.

 

I spent most of my career in the private sector. When well-managed businesses considered a major change of some kind, they engaged in extensive analysis, brought in outside experts, exhaustively evaluated every alternative, built consensus among those who would be affected and then moved ahead. Health care is many times bigger than all the companies in the Dow Jones combined. And the president is rushing changes that dwarf what any business I know has faced.

 

Republicans are not the party of "no" when it comes to health care reform. This Republican is proud to be the first governor to insure all his state's citizens. Other Republicans such as Rep. Paul Ryan and Sens. Bob Bennett and John McCain, among others, have proposed their own plans. Republicans will join with the Democrats if the president abandons his government insurance plan, if he endeavors to craft a plan that does not burden the nation with greater debt, if he broadens his scope to reduce health costs for all Americans, and if he is willing to devote the rigorous effort, requisite time and bipartisan process that health care reform deserves

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #58 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Oh, SDW.  Take off your partisan blinders for a moment.  People don't hate the provisions of Obamacare.  Republicans just hate Obama.  Without that name attached to the bill, suddenly a vast majority of Americans are totally in favor of the Affordable Care Act.  

 

 

 

 

Oh, and here's your beloved Quantum Romney vehemently supporting the individual mandate in 2009.

 

 

 

 

I am not being partisan.  I am listing provisions of the bill that are bad.   Why is the following partisan?  

 

 

  • It will cost $2 Trillion over ten years
  • It raises more than 20 taxes
  • It burdens the middle class.  You must buy insurance whether or not you have a job, or pay a fine into the thousands.  If you make a decent middle class wage (say, $50,000) you make too much money to get any assistance in buying care.
  • It will tax "Cadillac" (read: good) health care plans already in place. This includes millions of public sector workers like teachers, police (etc) who have strong benefits.  
  • It ends the entire concept of what insurance is.  One can simply wait until he's sick to buy insurance. 
  • Depending on enforcement, people may actually go to jail.  If they don't pay their taxes (fines), the IRS could very well take this action.  
  • The pre-existing condition language will end private insurance.  An insurance company must take you regardless of pre-existing conditions, and will be extremely limited in its ability to charge more.  Many preventative service will be mandated not only to be covered, but free to the patient.  How long do you think companies will continue to stay in the health insurance business?  
  • Many doctors are already refusing to take new Medicaid patients.  This will only grow as a problem.
  • It does nothing to deal with the real costs of healthcare, namely that the consumer has no interest in what the services cost, tort reform, and interstate purchasing.  
  • Demand for "free" services will exacerbate our shortage of doctors, wait times and drug availability.  

 

 

And concerning public support, you've got to be kidding.  Of course there are provisions people support.  What people do not support is the entire concept of the bill and what it actually is.  The polls are consistently 55-40 against and have been since 2010.  

 

 

 

 

 

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #59 of 66

Heheh.

 

Nice to see PO functioning as always.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #60 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Of course there are provisions people support.

 

Unfortunately, I'll bet, the provisions people support are the provisions that have them getting something for "free" or making something do something unreasonable for them. Those sort of provisions are widely popular in any bill.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #61 of 66

The best part was when SDW reposted false right wing talking points in bold.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #62 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Oh, SDW.  Take off your partisan blinders for a moment.  People don't hate the provisions of Obamacare.  Republicans just hate Obama.  Without that name attached to the bill, suddenly a vast majority of Americans are totally in favor of the Affordable Care Act. 

 

So you are contending then that the vast majority of Americans are Republicans?

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #63 of 66

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #64 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

 

So you are contending then that the vast majority of Americans are Republicans?

This comment is bad and you should feel bad.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #65 of 66

That is him false talking about Democrats and bragging about Republicans.
 

post #66 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Unfortunately, I'll bet, the provisions people support are the provisions that have them getting something for "free" or making something do something unreasonable for them. Those sort of provisions are widely popular in any bill.

 

Agreed.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The best part was when SDW reposted false right wing talking points in bold.

 

Please show me which of those "talking points" are inaccurate.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

That is him false talking about Democrats and bragging about Republicans.
 

 

See above.  Argue the points I've made or go away.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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