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post #121 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Oh, come on, please. If you look up condescension in the dictionary you'll find your own smirking face.

Consider the title of this goddamned thread. It's a backhanded insult that people who don't agree with you don't "understand", i.e. are stupid.

 

I can't control your inferences.

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post #122 of 203
Quote:
Economics is not simple, not black and white. There are many economic theories and practices that have both positive and negative effects. Taking ideas from many areas according to each individual situation is what's needed to solve today's very complex challenges.
Now tell me again how I don't "understand" as well as you do.
post #123 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

I can't control your inferences.

No, but you can imply really, really hard.  Frankly, I don't know what's worse--you lying about what this thread title implies or you not knowing what this thread title implies.  

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #124 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Now tell me again how I don't "understand" as well as you do.

 

From that statement alone or from the myriad other examples where you appear to claim that the basic understanding of economics that's been proven out are simply wrong or not applicable because they don't fit your wishful thinking about how things should work?

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post #125 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

No, but you can imply really, really hard.

 

That's a neat trick. 1rolleyes.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Frankly, I don't know what's worse--you lying about what this thread title implies or you not knowing what this thread title implies.  

 

This just cracks me up. You infer something negative from me (standard practice for you and tonton) and then try to turn the whole thing around on me. Priceless.

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post #126 of 203

Is it turning it around on you when it's you who proclaims understanding economics is agreeing with your point of view?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #127 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Is it turning it around on you when it's you who proclaims understanding economics is agreeing with your point of view?

 

No. And if you can show where I've said that, then I guess you win.

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post #128 of 203

Answer me this: if I fundamentally disagree with you about economics while claiming I understand it (and my position is based on said understanding), is it possible, in your view, that I actually understand economics?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #129 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Answer me this: if I fundamentally disagree with you about economics while claiming I understand it (and my position is based on said understanding), is it possible, in your view, that I actually understand economics?

 

This is not about our individual agreement or disagreement. This is not about you or me. There are matters of economic understanding and theory that have been long and well established that both you and tonton, et al simply think are untrue or don't really apply. It's not about my opinion or your opinion. You don't seem to get that. It is about economic reality. It is about well establish laws of economics that describe how the aspects of world that economics concerns itself with works.

 

You and ton ton (as usual) want to make this about me. It's not about me. I have not claimed that you do not understand economics because you don't agree with me. I have (sometimes) claimed you do not understand (or agree with) a concept (not mine) that is fundamental to the understanding of economics. You do not refute these concepts...you just wave your hand and start shouting lazy phrases like "trickle down economics" or "supply side economics." Your regular use of these terms alone demonstrates an ignorance of real economics. You simply do not accept many of the basic principles and premises of economics or don't like the implications they hold for the policies you propose and support.

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post #130 of 203

Nice dodge.  If I think your view of economic reality is twisted and bullshit, do I understand economics?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #131 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Nice dodge.  If I think your view of economic reality is twisted and bullshit, do I understand economics?

 

Nice loaded question. Again, you miss the point. It is not my view of economic reality.

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post #132 of 203

Stop being such a fucking coward and say it already.  You know you want to.  You think tonton and I don't know shit about economics.  You think we are completely wrong and live in a fantasy world.  You think you have the answers.  Grow a pair and say what you really feel.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #133 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You think tonton and I don't know shit about economics.  You think we are completely wrong and live in a fantasy world.  You think you have the answers.

 

Mostly, yeah.

 

I don't think you don't know anything about it or that you're always completely wrong. But I think you fail to either understand or accept some of the basics that are critically important.

 

But...before you go there...this is not because you disagree with me...but because you have demonstrated a clear resistance to many very basic, well established, well understand and virtually undebatable economic principles. Not my opinions. That's just a copout to make you feel better. You have openly refused to believe or accept some pretty basic economic stuff...mostly in instances where what economics has to say comes into conflict with what your wishful thinking hopes will happen.

 

Worse, neither of you appear to have any interest in actually informing and educating yourself beyond your simplistic and superficial understandings of these things. There are good, very approachable (for the average layman) books that provide reasonably well-rounded treatments of these things...but you appear to not care. You'd rather simply denounce what you think is "supply side economics" or "trickle down economics." It's sad really.

 

Here are some good books that are very approachable:

 

Economics in One Lesson

Economic Sophisms

Economics for Real People

 

There are of course many more. But your smug arrogance that this is all about simply my opinion is blinding you to really understanding and learning. Go read for yourself. Don't take my word for it at all. But stop this bullshit about making it about me. Don't spout "supply side" this and "trickle down" that bullshit. It's lazy and meaningless.

 

So...to summarize: The issue of understanding economics has nothing to do with me or my opinions. Nothing at all.


Edited by MJ1970 - 2/1/13 at 6:31pm

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post #134 of 203

So, back to your implications in your thread title.  Clearly you are the one with the answers who has to teach those who don't understand basic economic principles. The implication is clear.  The inference was valid.  You're a liar.

 

And oh, the irony, from someone who denies evolution.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #135 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So, back to your implications in your thread title.  Clearly you are the one with the answers who has to teach those who don't understand basic economic principles. The implication is clear.  The inference was valid.  You're a liar.

 

No it wasn't. Look beyond the fucking title:

 

 

Quote:
I figured it was worth starting one on the general topic of understanding economics where we can discuss all important concepts of economics and how the failure to properly understand it will lead to bad policy

 

This is not about me teaching everyone. This is about discussing economics. Understanding it and understanding how it impacts things like state policy.

 

So screw your biased inferences.

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post #136 of 203
If you were to write a textbook entitled, "understanding economics" whereby you claimed that free market economics is the only kind of economics that works, and that "Keynesian theory has been proven wrong" you would be laughed out of the theater. Yet that's what you keep saying here, over and over again. It's clear that you do not understand economics.
post #137 of 203
Thread Starter 

Then feel free to make your case. All you've done is shout "supply side economics" and "trickle down economics." Make your case. Go ahead. Make it. Plumb the depths of your study of economics and make your case. Forget about me. You and BR want to make it about me. It's not. Make your case. Lay out your knowledge and theories and understanding of economics and how it all works and allow the rest of us to see it and critique it and debate it and challenge or agree with it and accept it.

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post #138 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Then feel free to make your case. All you've done is shout "supply side economics" and "trickle down economics." Make your case. Go ahead. Make it. Plumb the depths of your study of economics and make your case. Forget about me. You and BR want to make it about me. It's not. Make your case. Lay out your knowledge and theories and understanding of economics and how it all works and allow the rest of us to see it and critique it and debate it and challenge or agree with it and accept it.
Ok. Among all European countries, which countries are prospering, for the middle and disadvantaged classes? The ones practicing "austerity", or the ones with far more socialist policies and high taxes? Which ones are on the verge of state bankruptcy, the ones practicing "austerity", or the ones with far more socialist policies and high taxes?

Before you answer, how many years has Greece been practicing "austerity"? Are the people of Greece better off now than they were before the austerity policies really started being enacted?
post #139 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Ok. Among all European countries, which countries are prospering, for the middle and disadvantaged classes? The ones practicing "austerity", or the ones with far more socialist policies and high taxes? Which ones are on the verge of state bankruptcy, the ones practicing "austerity", or the ones with far more socialist policies and high taxes?

Before you answer, how many years has Greece been practicing "austerity"? Are the people of Greece better off now than they were before the austerity policies really started being enacted?

 

No. Wrong. Start from the basics. That's the only way this can possibly work.

 

You cannot jump immediately to highly complex scenarios with a multitude of factors (sometimes mis-reported and mis-interpreted) and draw simplistic conclusions.

 

This is the problem. You don't seem to be getting it. Try again.

 

Start from the basics. Lay out for us your understanding of economics.

 

Tell us about your understanding of things supply (and the curve), demand (and the curve), marginal utility and how it affects decision-making, production and consumption (and which order they come in and why), consumption vs. investment and where investment capital comes from, labor vs. capital, producitivity, how wages rise, trade/exchange, comparative advantage and the division of labor, zero-sum vs. non-zero-sum thinking, how wealth is created and grows, interest rates and how they are determined, money and credit/lending/borrowing, wages, price controls, scarcity, etc.

 

These are the foundational pieces. These are the important pieces. These are the pieces that add up to understanding what is going on in things like "austerity" and "stimulus." But you're jumping way, way ahead without laying out the basics.

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post #140 of 203

Right, nothing at all implied in the title.  What a riot.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #141 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Right, nothing at all implied in the title.  What a riot.

 

If you don't wish to be involved in the discussion, that's fine. If, on the other hand, you'd like to discuss the topic of economics and your understanding(s) of it, then feel free to lay that out for us. We'd all love to see it.

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post #142 of 203

I see all you've done in this thread that relates to your demands of me and tonton is post a few libertarian links.  We've played this game before.  Answered your questions, only to have you belittle said answers and never provide answers of your own.  I won't be playing this game with you.

 

But once again, it's quite telling that the first post in this thread about "understanding economics" doesn't come from an academic source but rather a link to a website with a clear bias.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #143 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I see all you've done in this thread that relates to your demands of me and tonton is post a few libertarian links.  We've played this game before.  Answered your questions, only to have you belittle said answers and never provide answers of your own.  I won't be playing this game with you.

 

But once again, it's quite telling that the first post in this thread about "understanding economics" doesn't come from an academic source but rather a link to a website with a clear bias.

 

If you don't wish to share you understanding of economics and its core principles and laws and theories, that's fine. No one will think less of you.

 

If you wish to continue engaging in fallacies, that might be a different matter.

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post #144 of 203

I'm still waiting for you to share yours.  All you do is demand and never reciprocate.  You're like one of those guys that loves blowjobs but won't ever go down on his girl.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #145 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I'm still waiting for you to share yours.  All you do is demand and never reciprocate.

 

You have suggested that I started this thread to educate and pontificate on my understanding of economics. I'm giving the floor to you and tonton to give us yours. You help all of us to understand economics as you see it.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You're like one of those guys that loves blowjobs but won't ever go down on his girl.

 

How delightfully crude of you. Is this from the "Advanced Trolling" playbook?

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post #146 of 203

Ah, but you deny those accusations wholeheartedly so stop dodging and start talking.  You've put off the cunnilingus long enough.  Or do you have no tongue?  Perhaps that's been the problem all along.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #147 of 203
Thread Starter 

So you're not going to share with us your understanding of economics. Got it. That's fine.

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post #148 of 203

You have a track record of not reciprocating.  I will not put forth any effort until you demonstrate you mean business.  If your goal is others getting an understanding of economics, you'd be fine with displaying your own (since it is YOUR thread).

 

Of course, if your goal is just to play games like you always do, then, well, by all means proceed in the same manner you've done so all along.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #149 of 203
Thread Starter 

Welcome SCProfessor.

 

I welcome your sharing your understandings of economics with us.

 

Out of curiosity is your PhD in economics? Any particular specialty? What was your dissertation topic?

 

I'm particularly interested to have you elaborate on your statement: "It is possible to have a capitalistic system under a communist government."

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

P.S. It's not so much a "Pepsi Challenge" kind of thing as much as it is a thread to discuss economics and to sort out the best understanding of it and how this affects government policy proposals. While politics and economics are different things and, in many ways, separate, they are also deeply intertwined and greatly affect one another.


Edited by MJ1970 - 2/2/13 at 1:53pm

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post #150 of 203
Thread Starter 
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Originally Posted by SCProfessor View Post

Hey, I'll go back to Econ 222... tell me about a Giffen good.

 

How very good of you. The theory of the Giffen good is about goods that appear to have higher demand at higher prices appearing to violate the law of demand. The suggestion is that income more strongly affects purchasing thus subverting the normally understand downward sloping demand curve. Granted there is theory and some (but very little) evidence for these goods and their existence appears to depend on more than a few special circumstances in combination suggesting this might be a corner case and more theoretical than practical.


Edited by MJ1970 - 2/2/13 at 12:37pm

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post #151 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You think we are completely wrong and live in a fantasy world.

 

You make that sound like it's specific to this thread.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #152 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCProfessor View Post

Thanks and yes it is. At the time, I was really into IT, so my dissertation focused on student learning outcomes from the pedagogy to the university. Colleges would spend a lot on sports and so forth, but the percentage of IT budgets were going through the roof. Nobody ever stop and asked are we getting our bang for our buck. My specialty was University Administration because they often can operate outside market forces.

 

Sounds interesting. Based on your question, you think the IT spending here was an example of the "Giffin good" affect.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCProfessor View Post

And as far as the last statement, I think a political system and economic system can be two different things. Communist China, for example, are in many ways a more quasi-capitalistic nation than we are. In one case (USA) we let the markets determine who will fail or succeed (unless you are took big to fail and get a bailout). In China, they make the market, and let the free market (after so kick-backs to the top) decide who will get Apple.

 

Agreed that China, politically communist and evolving toward more a free-market economy is succeeding in many ways. In particular relative to their past where they relied much less on the market. However, it's quite unclear if what we're seeing here is so much communism and the free-market successfully coexisting (long term) than a sort of moment in time where the market is succeeding greatly for them and overcoming much of what the past held for them and propping up the communist political system. It's also unclear whether that political system is holding them back from even further, faster and greater progress. Finally, it's not always clear exactly how much that political system is distorting and mis-allocating investment and consumption and capital of the "free" market.

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post #153 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCProfessor View Post

I'm just having fun, so do any of this with a grain of salt.

 

Why is water a must of life and diamonds are not... and you can't use the supply and demand reasoning... why the difference in price?

 

Is this two questions or one? Why is water a must for life and diamonds are not? I think that's fairly self-evident and more of a physical sciences question.

 

Why the difference in price despite the vast difference in importance to living: Basically boils down to (diminishing) marginal utility. As we have, use, obtain, consume more of a good, the value of each additional (marginal) unit demanded and consumed is less to us. Water is in great abundance (in most places) and we have all of our needs (and wants) satisfied with it such that additional units are not so valuable. Diamonds...no as much...we (well some anyway) covet them for their beauty (among other reasons) but they are quite rare for most of us, so we value the next one (the marginal one) highly. It should be noted that even diamonds (for some people...who have a lot of them) would also see this affect at play. I suspect there are some extremely rich people for whom an additional diamond is not highly valued. Conversely, while I might be only willing to pay $1 for a bottle of water and be willing to pay $1,000 for a diamond under normal circumstances...if my circumstances changed where water (to me) was extremely scarce (I was thirsty in the desert for example), those prices might be reversed. But as my water is replenished the relative values (and corresponding prices) will return to their original states.

 

In short it's about the idea of marginal utility or marginal value...more specifically diminishing marginal utility/value.

 

This, of course, plays in all things. The water/diamond "paradox" simply illustrates it much more clearly.

 

Another way to see this is in something less life-sustaining than water. Say candy bars. I happen to love O'Henry bars. They taste great. Let's imagine a situation where you had a pile of them...maybe 50 of them and we were sitting together. You offer me one for $1. I say YES! Haven't had one in while. I greedly munch that bar down. Then you offer me another for a dollar. Sure. Why not. I fairly quickly eat that one too. Now you offer a 3rd for $1. I'm not so sure. I've had two. Getting kinda full. I like 'em and all that...but. So you say, how about 75 cents. Sure. Okay. I eat the 3rd even more slowly. The value and pleasure (utility) is diminishing. I'm getting less out of each additional unit and this willing to pay less for each additional unit. And on this goes until I'm willing to pay almost nothing for that next candy bar.


Edited by MJ1970 - 2/2/13 at 2:17pm

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post #154 of 203

Blind is the man who reads a book, and thinks he knows all there is to be known about the world around him.

post #155 of 203

The sad thing is, MJ reads books full of opinions and shallow analysis from a single perspective, and calls that "fundamentals" or even "laws", when in fact they are theories.

post #156 of 203
Meanwhile, he reads books and essays criticizing contrasting theories, and call those theories "disproven" when in fact they are not, any more than his theories have been "disproven" by criticisms of such.
post #157 of 203
Meanwhile he never opens his eyes to the lessons of history and the world around him. When you ask, "when in history has any recovery from recession not included at least some Keynesian measures?" He responds with, "you haven't read the book." (That he claims "disproves" Keynes)
post #158 of 203
Thread Starter 

So you're not going to tell us what you know about the fundamentals of economics?

 

You're just going to spend your posts commenting on me and what you think I've done and am doing and spouting various lies and fallacies about what I've done, said and what you assume I think?

 

Seriously?

 

Okay. 1hmm.gif

 

I guess this all shows us what you know and understand about economics.


Edited by MJ1970 - 2/2/13 at 9:04pm

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post #159 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So you're not going to tell us what you know about the fundamentals of economics?

 

You're just going to spend your posts commenting on me and what you think I've done and am doing and spouting various lies and fallacies about what I've done, said and what you assume I think?

 

Seriously?

 

Okay. 1hmm.gif

 

I guess this all shows us what you know and understand about economics.


There are some things about economics that I know better than you do. For instance, I know as a fact, that Keynesian economic theory has never been conclusively "disproved" nor has it been shown to be even generally wrong. There's no unbiased professor in economics who would agree with you on that point.

post #160 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

There are some things about economics that I know better than you do. For instance, I know as a fact, that Keynesian economic theory has never been conclusively "disproved" nor has it been shown to be even generally wrong. There's no unbiased professor in economics who would agree with you on that point.

 

So you're not going to tell us what you know about the fundamentals of economics. Got it.

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