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Understanding economics - Page 2

post #41 of 203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The CONSUMPTION of resources to support a society is not the waste of resources. That's what you don't get.
Everything asserted here about "wasted resources" has removed life from the equation and all we're left with is a dollar sign.

 

Actually, it is you that's not "getting it." Wasting resources is the pathway to poverty and death. The point of not wasting resources is that there are more resources to do more things, typically supporting more life for more people.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The fact is, if you make enough poor people poor enough, desperate enough, then they will work for $1 an hour rather than nothing. That's exactly what would happen if there is no minimum wage and no welfare.

 

I'm afraid you have no evidence to support this claimed dystopian future.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The goal is not the maximizing of profit, growth, GDP. The goal is people living their lives comfortably. Even lazy people or people born on the wrong side of the tracks.

 

Agreed. The part you don't get is that a free and growing economy is the route to get there.

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post #42 of 203
When you buy food for your family, is that wasting resources? Your wife and kids can buy their own damn fries, and your family income will be higher.
post #43 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I don't deny that welfare and minimum wage affect growth. Without them, we could grow faster. But growth is not the goal. Life is the goal.

And how much life will you have when your wage goes to zero (unemployed)?
Look who doesn't understand economics.
post #44 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The CONSUMPTION of resources to support a society is not the waste of resources. That's what you don't get.

Everything asserted here about "wasted resources" has removed life from the equation and all we're left with is a dollar sign.

Actually, it is you that's not "getting it." Wasting resources is the pathway to poverty and death. The point of not wasting resources is that there are more resources to do more things, typically supporting more life for more people.
Of course you know, as well as I do, that that only works if people actually use those resources to support more life for more people. Instead, people buy a third house, a bigger yacht, a sixth car, or hide all their cash away in the Caymans.
post #45 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

When you buy food for your family, is that wasting resources?

 

No*.

 

 

*Actually, it could be. It depends. This cannot be categorically determined, each instance must be analyzed to properly answer that question. The fact is, it could be wasteful in certain cases.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Your wife and kids can buy their own damn fries, and your family income will be higher.

 

What?!


Edited by MJ1970 - 12/3/12 at 6:53am

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post #46 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Look who doesn't understand economics.

 

Yes, you. This is ever more obvious with every post you write.

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post #47 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Of course you know, as well as I do, that that only works if people actually use those resources to support more life for more people. Instead, people buy a third house, a bigger yacht, a sixth car, or hide all their cash away in the Caymans.

 

And here's another example.

 

lol.gif

 

Allowing for your caricature of business owners and the rich for a moment...

 

It's not like, you know, no one had to be paid to build that their house or yacht or car.

 

Wow.

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post #48 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

And here's another example.

 

lol.gif

 

Allowing for your caricature of business owners and the rich for a moment...

 

It's not like, you know, no one had to be paid to build that their house or yacht or car.

 

Wow.

 

My thoughts exactly.  

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post #49 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Of course you know, as well as I do, that that only works if people actually use those resources to support more life for more people. Instead, people buy a third house, a bigger yacht, a sixth car, or hide all their cash away in the Caymans.

And here's another example.

lol.gif

Allowing for your caricature of business owners and the rich for a moment...

It's not like, you know, no one had to be paid to build that their house or yacht or car.

Wow.
I've said this a thousand times and it goes over your head or wilfully through your ears every time... A hundred thousand dollars spent on groceries supports a hell of a lot more jobs and people than a hundred thousand spent on a Ferarri. And you're talking about wasting resources? And what about those accounts and shell companies in the Caymans? Who exactly does that support?
post #50 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I've said this a thousand times and it goes over your head or wilfully through your ears every time... A hundred thousand dollars spent on groceries supports a hell of a lot more jobs and people than a hundred thousand spent on a Ferarri. And you're talking about wasting resources?

 

Prove it or shut up.

 

I notice you still haven't answered how much of a life you'll have when you wage goes to zero. I figure you'll continue to ignore this reality because it doesn't fit into the denial you've carefully crafted in your mind.

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post #51 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I've said this a thousand times and it goes over your head or wilfully through your ears every time... A hundred thousand dollars spent on groceries supports a hell of a lot more jobs and people than a hundred thousand spent on a Ferarri. And you're talking about wasting resources? And what about those accounts and shell companies in the Caymans? Who exactly does that support?

 

What MJ said:  Prove it.  You are no different than Pelosi and her "unemployment checks create jobs" comment.  You're just making up shit now.  

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post #52 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I've said this a thousand times and it goes over your head or wilfully through your ears every time... A hundred thousand dollars spent on groceries supports a hell of a lot more jobs and people than a hundred thousand spent on a Ferarri. And you're talking about wasting resources?

Prove it or shut up.
This from a believer in trickle down economics! lol.gif
Quote:
I notice you still haven't answered how much of a life you'll have when you wage goes to zero. I figure you'll continue to ignore this reality because it doesn't fit into the denial you've carefully crafted in your mind.
My wage will not go down to zero, and by that, I mean, minimum wage does not add significantly to unemployment. You say it does. Prove it or shut up.

Here's how things work.

People want to do business. In order to provide goods or services, people need employees. They will only ever use as many employees as they need to do business. They won't use more employees just because they have more money. They won't use fewer employees because the wage is (slightly) higher. If you need 100 people to make a widget, a higher wage won't mean you can suddenly manage with less.

The idea that minimum wage leads to unemployment is bullshit. Even if one employer cuts jobs (and output), that just leaves space for someone else to enter the market.

Now... Minimum wage CAN lead to inflation. But that can be kept in check, and the increase in prices will never exceed the increase in wages, as long as CEOs aren't increasing their take as well.
Edited by tonton - 12/3/12 at 7:33pm
post #53 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I've said this a thousand times and it goes over your head or wilfully through your ears every time... A hundred thousand dollars spent on groceries supports a hell of a lot more jobs and people than a hundred thousand spent on a Ferarri. And you're talking about wasting resources? And what about those accounts and shell companies in the Caymans? Who exactly does that support?

What MJ said:  Prove it.  You are no different than Pelosi and her "unemployment checks create jobs" comment.  You're just making up shit now.  
Bullshit. Prove that trickle down economics work. Tell me whose jobs that money in the Caymans supports.
post #54 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

This from a believer in trickle down economics! lol.gif

 

Your continued use of this sloppy phrase is further evidence of your economic ignorance. Explain, precisely, what you mean by "trickle down economics" and then we might be able to discuss your claims and accusations.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

My wage will not go down to zero, and by that, I mean, minimum wage does not add significantly to unemployment. You say it does. Prove it or shut up.

 

I never said "significantly," that's your straw man. The simple and real fact is that raising the minimum wage will create unemployment for the most marginal employees. Those with the least experience, skills and productivity. These are the people that need the entry level jobs the most as it becomes the first rung on the employment ladder. The minimum wage effective removes the lowest rung(s). How "significant" or widespread this unemployment effect is related to the amount of the minimum wage, particular in relation to what market wage rates would be absent the statutory minimum.

 

The video presented clearly explained the principles at work here. You seems to be responding by simply sticking your fingers in your ears.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Here's how things work.

 

Frankly, you've demonstrated your lack of qualification to tell us.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

People want to do business. In order to provide goods or services, people need employees. They will only ever use as many employees as they need to do business. They won't use more employees just because they have more money. They won't use fewer employees because the wage is (slightly) higher. If you need 100 people to make a widget, a higher wage won't mean you can suddenly manage with less.

 

And this statement proves it.

 

Absolutely they will use less (or more if they think they can grow their business.) In fact the lowest level employment scene has shown this over the past 20-30 years. We have self-serve gas pumps and checkout lanes for exactly this reason.

 

That's just one example.

 

As labor costs rise, businesses will invest in tools that expedite the elimination of some employees. Typically the least valuable, skilled and experienced employees.

 

Additionally, employers will find other ways to reduce costs, some of which may negatively affect remaining employees...such as reducing benefits.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The idea that minimum wage leads to unemployment is bullshit.

 

Well, here we have it. The entire mindset of the left in one statement: A stubborn and ignorant denial of economic reality. 1rolleyes.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Now... Minimum wage CAN lead to inflation. But that can be kept in check, and the increase in prices will never exceed the increase in wages, as long as CEOs aren't increasing their take as well.

 

And further evidence that you don't understand how inflation works either. That's not how inflation happens. Price inflation is a result of monetary inflation (an increase in the supply of money and credit) which is drive by the central bank (The Fed.)

 

Pick up a book or two tonton. The book "Economics in One Less" would be a good start.

 

Tell me tonton, why the stubborn denial of economic reality? Is it really so necessary for you to be right on this? What do you gain by that?


Edited by MJ1970 - 12/3/12 at 8:30pm

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post #55 of 203
I don't need your books that support your theories to know that they are bullshit. Pick up a book or two by Nobel prize winning Paul Krugman. No? I didn't think so.

You have your theories and I have mine. But the fact is, when you look at the last 30 years (where taxes have gone way down, especially for the rich, while unemployment has gone up and the wealth gap has gone up astronomically) and when you look around the world at what economic systems are actually working to produce prosperous debt free societies rich in education and innovation (Dutch, Scandinavian) then it's clear that your theories don't work.

But don't take my word for it.

Read a book.

Oh, yeah, it's not on your brainwashed libertarian reading list.
post #56 of 203
Absolute free market economic theory makes the exact same mistake that failed soviet and maoist communist theory made. It ignores the fact that people are ultimately selfish.
post #57 of 203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I don't need your books that support your theories to know that they are bullshit.

 

So now we know that your ignorance is not only stubborn it is also willful.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Pick up a book or two by Nobel prize winning Paul Krugman. No? I didn't think so.

 

Mr. Krugman the economist will tell you the same thing. Mr. Krugman the democratic operative might not.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You have your theories and I have mine.

 

1oyvey.gif This is isn't about my theory vs. your theory. This is about basic economics.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

But the fact is, when you look at the last 30 years (where taxes have gone way down, especially for the rich, while unemployment has gone up and the wealth gap has gone up astronomically)

 

Unemployment has gone up for the last 30 years? You may want to check your facts.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

...when you look around the world at what economic systems are actually working to produce prosperous debt free societies rich in education and innovation (Dutch, Scandinavian) then it's clear that your theories don't work.

 

Actually its' very clear they do.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

But don't take my word for it.

 

I won't.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Read a book.

 

I do. I have. Plenty.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Oh, yeah, it's not on your brainwashed libertarian reading list.

 

So you really don't have a counter argument than to claim I'm brainwashed?!

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post #58 of 203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Absolute free market economic theory makes the exact same mistake that failed soviet and maoist communist theory made. It ignores the fact that people are ultimately selfish.

 

You are wrong.

 

What's worse is that your statism and authoritarianism ignores people's lust for power and willingly gives it to them.

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post #59 of 203
I'm wrong how? That people are selfish, or that your utopian ideals ignore that, just like communism does?

Show me how your theories prevent collusion, corporate cannibalism, lax safety regulation that leads to death, feudalism, infinitely dripping wages, crime of desperation. They don't.
post #60 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I'm wrong how? That people are selfish, or that your utopian ideals ignore that, just like communism does?

 

The second.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Show me how your theories prevent collusion, corporate cannibalism, lax safety regulation that leads to death, feudalism, infinitely dripping wages, crime of desperation. They don't.

 

I would love to, but you seem immune to logic and reason as evidenced by the recent string of posts. You can't even accept the basics about the minimum wage, how could I possibly convince you of anything more involved than that?! You've settled on your (dystopian) conclusion and won't be moved from it by any line of logic or reasoning or facts. Your adherence to your position is one of faith.

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post #61 of 203
"Unemployment hasn't gone up for the last 30 years."

So you're admitting that the right wing claiming the "real unemployment rate" is the U6 rate is a lie? Well, we're making progress.
post #62 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I've said this a thousand times and it goes over your head or wilfully through your ears every time... A hundred thousand dollars spent on groceries supports a hell of a lot more jobs and people than a hundred thousand spent on a Ferarri. And you're talking about wasting resources? And what about those accounts and shell companies in the Caymans? Who exactly does that support?

 

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Watch the following video and educate yourself.

 

 

Do you not realize how many thousands - perhaps hundreds of thousands - of people are involved in the process of making a Ferrari? From the raw materials to the completed product? How many skilled craftsmen, technicians, laborers, businessmen, etc. are required in that process? The raw materials and resources from places around the world? The mechanics required to set up, maintain, and repair the manufacturing equipment? Think about every intricate little part of that process and then think about the people and resources behind each of those parts. It's absolutely astonishing, almost miraculous how all of these different individuals working around the world contribute - voluntarily and organically - to the creation of a Ferrari.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

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post #63 of 203
Hundreds of thousands... Hahahaaaaa!!!!

And I'm the liar...

Now how many people are involved with the production and marketing of 100k worth of groceries? Are you honestly claiming it's less than the real number (not your made up bullshit) of people involved in making a luxury car?

And none of you have answered the question about the caymans.
post #64 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Hundreds of thousands... Hahahaaaaa!!!!

 

Yes.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And I'm the liar...

 

Yes.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Now how many people are involved with the production and marketing of 100k worth of groceries? Are you honestly claiming it's less than the real number (not your made up bullshit) of people involved in making a luxury car?

 

You made the original claim. Burden of proof is on you. Please prove your claim or shut up.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And none of you have answered the question about the caymans.

 

What about it? The money is used as capital in one way or another for investment (usually) though it may also be loaned out for consumption purposes. Does your ignorance of economic matters extend to how money and banking and saving and investment works also?

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post #65 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Hundreds of thousands... Hahahaaaaa!!!!
And I'm the liar...
Now how many people are involved with the production and marketing of 100k worth of groceries? Are you honestly claiming it's less than the real number (not your made up bullshit) of people involved in making a luxury car?
And none of you have answered the question about the caymans.

 

Nice deflection.

 

I never made any specific claims about numbers of people involved. But neither did you. But I suppose it's easier to call someone a liar when you disagree with them than actually acknowledge they made a fair point.

 

It's obvious that you are not really interested in discussing and learning about economics. Rather, you are interested in telling people you disagree with how stupid you think they are.

 

Let me know when you actually want to engage in a civil conversation.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #66 of 203
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Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Let me know when you actually want to engage in a civil conversation.

 

Don't hold your breath.

 

tonton 2.0 = BR 1.0

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post #67 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Hundreds of thousands... Hahahaaaaa!!!!

And I'm the liar...

Now how many people are involved with the production and marketing of 100k worth of groceries? Are you honestly claiming it's less than the real number (not your made up bullshit) of people involved in making a luxury car?

And none of you have answered the question about the caymans.

Nice deflection.

I never made any specific claims about numbers of people involved. But neither did you. But I suppose it's easier to call someone a liar when you disagree with them than actually acknowledge they made a fair point.

It's obvious that you are not really interested in discussing and learning about economics. Rather, you are interested in telling people you disagree with how stupid you think they are.

Let me know when you actually want to engage in a civil conversation.

You: "...perhaps hundreds of thousands..."

No, you didn't make any claim with regard to numbers of people. Right. But you sure as hell made a ridiculous non-specific claim.
post #68 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


You: "...perhaps hundreds of thousands..."
No, you didn't make any claim with regard to numbers of people. Right. But you sure as hell made a ridiculous non-specific claim.

 

Yes, perhaps hundreds of thousands of people are involved in the creation of a Ferrari when you take into account the entire process from raw materials to completed product. Just take a few minutes to think about it. I dare you.

 

Think about how many people are involved in the production of a single one of the raw materials like metal. Think about how many people are involved in mining the ore, refining it, making it into metal. What about the people involved in making the machinery, computer systems, etc. used to mine and refine that ore? To say nothing of the other raw materials, shipping them to where they are needed at the next step of the process, continuing up the supply chain and putting them all together to make a Ferrari.

 

And all those thousands, yes, perhaps hundreds of thousands of people involved in making that Ferrari? They buy groceries (and other products) brought to them by equally complex and astonishing economic processes.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #69 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Bullshit. Prove that trickle down economics work. Tell me whose jobs that money in the Caymans supports.

 

"Trickle-down economics" does not even exist.  It was merely a derogatory term for the Reagan economic policy, which slashed tax rates across the board..including the top bracket.  Given that Reaganomics created millions jobs, strong growth and much higher tax revenues, I'd say that yeah...it works.  

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post #70 of 203
Thread Starter 

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post #71 of 203

Production = Consumption of labour capital...  

post #72 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeb85 View Post

Production = Consumption of labour capital...  

 

What is your point?

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post #73 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

What is your point?

The article is arguing about semantics, and does nothing to refute Keynesian economics...

post #74 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeb85 View Post

The article is arguing about semantics, and does nothing to refute Keynesian economics...

 

I think the present state of things refutes Keynesian economics quite well.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #75 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeb85 View Post

The article is arguing about semantics, and does nothing to refute Keynesian economics...

 

Actually it is not. You are correct that production consumes labor. However this is not at all the sense in which consumption is used by the Keynesians. They are referring to purchase of, demand for and consumption of consumer goods vs. high-order production goods and services.

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post #76 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

I think the present state of things refutes Keynesian economics quite well.

Where?  In the US?  In China?  Europe?  

 

The Chinese economy is guided by their government, and is doing quite well.  

post #77 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Actually it is not. You are correct that production consumes labor. However this is not at all the sense in which consumption is used by the Keynesians. They are referring to purchase of, demand for and consumption of consumer goods vs. high-order production goods and services.

 

Yes.  Well without consumption, the incentive to produce will only last for so long.  It may be a short-term boost, but is unmaintainable without a raison d'être.  Demand doesn't always drive the economy, production can produce demand, but demand will always maintain production.  

post #78 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeb85 View Post

Where?  In the US?  In China?  Europe?  

 

The Chinese economy is guided by their government, and is doing quite well.  

 

The Chinese economy has improved as they have embraced more free market principles.

 

That said, they are quite dependent upon Americans consuming what they produce. Once the dollar devalues to the point where Americans can't consume as much, the Chinese economy will contract.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #79 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeb85 View Post

Yes.  Well without consumption, the incentive to produce will only last for so long.  It may be a short-term boost, but is unmaintainable without a raison d'être.  Demand doesn't always drive the economy, production can produce demand, but demand will always maintain production.  

 

Perhaps it will help you to re-read the article.

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post #80 of 203
MJ's version of the truth:

Economics is simple, black and white. Supply-side free market economics is right. Everything else is wrong, especially Keynes, Krugman, and demand-driven economics. If you don't agree with me then you are too stupid to understand economics.

The real world:

Economics is not simple, not black and white. There are many economic theories and practices that have both positive and negative effects. Taking ideas from many areas according to each individual situation is what's needed to solve today's very complex challenges.
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