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Understanding economics - Page 3

post #81 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

MJ's version of the truth:

Economics is simple, black and white. Supply-side free market economics is right. Everything else is wrong, especially Keynes, Krugman, and demand-driven economics. If you don't agree with me then you are too stupid to understand economics.

The real world:

Economics is not simple, not black and white. There are many economic theories and practices that have both positive and negative effects. Taking ideas from many areas according to each individual situation is what's needed to solve today's very complex challenges.

tonton's answer for the complex problems facing humanity: government knows best and should violently force you to do whatever it wants, but only when I agree with it. If you don't like it, then move.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #82 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

MJ's version of the truth:

Economics is simple, black and white. Supply-side free market economics is right. Everything else is wrong, especially Keynes, Krugman, and demand-driven economics. If you don't agree with me then you are too stupid to understand economics.

The real world:

Economics is not simple, not black and white. There are many economic theories and practices that have both positive and negative effects. Taking ideas from many areas according to each individual situation is what's needed to solve today's very complex challenges.

 

Everyone should note that you've not done anything to comment on or refute the article that was posted and the claims it makes. In stead you've simply ignored that and gone straight to ad hominem, straw men, non sequiturs, etc. How nice.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #83 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

MJ's version of the truth:

Economics is simple, black and white. Supply-side free market economics is right. Everything else is wrong, especially Keynes, Krugman, and demand-driven economics. If you don't agree with me then you are too stupid to understand economics.

The real world:

Economics is not simple, not black and white. There are many economic theories and practices that have both positive and negative effects. Taking ideas from many areas according to each individual situation is what's needed to solve today's very complex challenges.

tonton's answer for the complex problems facing humanity: government knows best and should violently force you to do whatever it wants, but only when I agree with it. If you don't like it, then move.
Absolutely not. You haven't paid any attention to anything I've said.
post #84 of 203
The story is absurd. First of all, savings is not investment, in fact its exactly the opposite. How many times does the story reference "savings and investment" as a unit? Second, investment in and of itself does not guarantee production.
post #85 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The story is absurd.

 

Well there's a good, logical, fact-base start. 1rolleyes.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

First of all, savings is not investment, in fact its exactly the opposite.

 

You are wrong. You are especially wrong about them being exactly the opposite. 1eek.gif Read an economics book or two.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Second, investment in and of itself does not guarantee production.

 

I may need re-read the article, but that smells like a straw man.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #86 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Absolutely not. You haven't paid any attention to anything I've said.

 

That's exactly what you've said time and time again.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #87 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Absolutely not. You haven't paid any attention to anything I've said.

That's exactly what you've said time and time again.
If you had been paying attention, I've said time and time again that if you don't like the politics of where you live, then you should use your vote and your voice to change it. If that's not enough for you, then you want to be a dictator, and yes, perhaps you should leave. But use your vote first.
post #88 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


If you had been paying attention, I've said time and time again that if you don't like the politics of where you live, then you should use your vote and your voice to change it. If that's not enough for you, then you want to be a dictator, and yes, perhaps you should leave. But use your vote first.

 

I want individuals calling themselves a government to stop forcing peaceful people to do what they want under threat of violence. And that makes me a dictator?

 

 
You make absolutely no sense, here.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #89 of 203

Elected individuals. Individuals who can be elected out. Don't like the choice, support your candidate and develop new candidates from the grassroots. Everyone has a beginning. Ron Paul became a Senator, and a presidential candidate because of people like you who supported his ideas. Good on you! That's the power of our system. Keep working with the system, and some day more people like Ron Paul may have a better chance at making even more of an impact.

 

What makes you a dictator is that you want it to happen NOW, and if that doesn't happen, then you claim your rights are being trampled, and you call people who don't support your ideas stupid.

post #90 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

What makes you a dictator is that you want it to happen NOW, and if that doesn't happen, then you claim your rights are being trampled, and you call people who don't support your ideas stupid.

 

Not one of those things makes him a dictator.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #91 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Elected individuals. Individuals who can be elected out. Don't like the choice, support your candidate and develop new candidates from the grassroots. Everyone has a beginning. Ron Paul became a Senator, and a presidential candidate because of people like you who supported his ideas. Good on you! That's the power of our system. Keep working with the system, and some day more people like Ron Paul may have a better chance at making even more of an impact.

 

Except the election process is corrupt to the core. Votes and politicians are bought and sold to the highest better. Stories like Ron Paul's are the exception, not the rule. Most of the time we are presented with a false dilemma and made to believe that we are doing our "civic duty" in supporting and perpetuating the illusion of choice.

 

Ron Paul and his supporters tried to "work the system". They were systematically disenfranchised and defrauded by that system. The system is broken and is long past the point where it can be improved through reforms. It is fundamentally flawed. It's time for a new, different system.

 

I embrace the non-aggression principle, and I am working to bring about positive changes peacefully and voluntarily, and you call me a dictator. Amazing.

 

 

Quote:
What makes you a dictator is that you want it to happen NOW, and if that doesn't happen, then you claim your rights are being trampled, and you call people who don't support your ideas stupid.

 

Of course I want it to happen now. I think we should give freedom a try. Let people enjoy their naturally endowed, Constitutionally guaranteed rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and see what happens. I believe it's the only way to achieve lasting peace and prosperity.

 

But I still don't understand how the mere expression of my views and my desire for the changes I believe are necessary makes me a dictator.

 

Dictators want absolute power. Dictators wand to forcefully impose their will on others. That is the opposite of what I want.

 

I want people to be able to mind their own affairs, enjoy the fruits of their own labor, and interact with one another peacefully and voluntarily. In short, I want freedom.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #92 of 203

Well, what the bast majority of the people want now is not to live in anarchy. Do you really support what the people want? You may not want to do so forcefully, but you do want to impose your will on others.

 

And you claim the system is broken simply because you are in a vast minority and things don't go the way you want them to. The US system is still, despite recent problems with fundamentalists, among the best systems in the world.

post #93 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Well, what the bast majority of the people want now is not to live in anarchy. Do you really support what the people want? You may not want to do so forcefully, but you do want to impose your will on others.

 

No he doesn't. You are very, very confused on this point and are quite lamely trying to invert the reality.

 

The people who want to impose their wills on others are people like you, BR, Barack Obama, Harry Reid, pretty much most people actually.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #94 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And you claim the system is broken simply because you are in a vast minority and things don't go the way you want them to.

 

This is also a false claim.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #95 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Well, what the bast majority of the people want now is not to live in anarchy. Do you really support what the people want? You may not want to do so forcefully, but you do want to impose your will on others.

 

No he doesn't. You are very, very confused on this point and are quite lamely trying to invert the reality.

 

The people who want to impose their wills on others are people like you, BR, Barack Obama, Harry Reid, pretty much most people actually.


Exactly. The people who disagree with you.

 

Ron Paul, of course, is not trying to impose his will on others, no, sir.

post #96 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Exactly. The people who disagree with you.

 

WTF?! Yes, these are people that disagree with me AND they are people who both want to and actively engage in imposing their wills on other people. What the **** is your point?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Ron Paul, of course, is not trying to impose his will on others, no, sir.

 

Not that I have been able to tell. But we're not talking about Ron Paul here.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #97 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Well, what the bast majority of the people want now is not to live in anarchy. Do you really support what the people want? You may not want to do so forcefully, but you do want to impose your will on others.

 

If the "vast" majority of people want to use the government to engage in violent aggression against others, then no, I do not support what they want.

 

How can you impose your will on another without using force?

 

Quote:
And you claim the system is broken simply because you are in a vast minority and things don't go the way you want them to.

 

Please quote me where I made that claim. I said the system is broken, and it is, but don't put words in my mouth.


Edited by jazzguru - 2/1/13 at 10:10am

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #98 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Exactly. The people who disagree with you.

 

WTF?! Yes, these are people that disagree with me AND they are people who both want to and actively engage in imposing their wills on other people. What the **** is your point?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Ron Paul, of course, is not trying to impose his will on others, no, sir.

 

Not that I have been able to tell. But we're not talking about Ron Paul here.


Right. We're talking about me, BR, Barack Obama, Harry Reid...

 

Funny, no mention of Eric Cantor, John Roberts, Mitch McConnell, SDW2001... I wonder why.

post #99 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Right. We're talking about me, BR, Barack Obama, Harry Reid...

 

Yes, because these are examples of people who wish to impose their will upon others by force.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Funny, no mention of Eric Cantor, John Roberts, Mitch McConnell, SDW2001... I wonder why.

 

They are certainly included as well (though SDW seems to be coming around slowly.)

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #100 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Right. We're talking about me, BR, Barack Obama, Harry Reid...

 

Funny, no mention of Eric Cantor, John Roberts, Mitch McConnell, SDW2001... I wonder why.

 

Are you trying to derail the conversation?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #101 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Please quote me where I made that claim.

 

You've never made that claim. He's fabricating it from his imagination. He's claiming that you are claiming the system is broken because you are in the minority and because things don't go your way.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #102 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Are you trying to derail the conversation?

 

Almost certainly. He thinks he found a "gotcha." 1rolleyes.gif

 

That said...I think I'm beginning to pick up on the strategy here, and it might just work (on me.)


Edited by MJ1970 - 2/1/13 at 10:18am

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #103 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Please quote me where I made that claim. I said the system is broken, and it is, but don't put words in my mouth.


I never said you made that claim. You incorrectly parsed my sentence.

post #104 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


They are certainly included as well (though SDW seems to be coming around slowly.)

So why no mention of them in the first place? Shocking.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #105 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post


So why no mention of them in the first place? Shocking.

 

So you guys DO want to derail. I get it now. 1rolleyes.gif

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #106 of 203
By not answering the question and posting an irrelevant response, you have become party to this alleged derailment. Ironic.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #107 of 203
Thread Starter 

Let me be as clear as I possibly can:

 

I believe that almost 99% of the elected officials (and most citizens for that matter) of all political stripes desire to impose their will on other by force. However, most people who are true libertarians and/or anarcho-capitalists do NOT wish to impose their will onto anyone by force. That I happened to list only a few is irrelevant and further discussion of it simply willful derailment.

 

Do you wish to return to the topic? If you wish to have a discussion about me, perhaps you should start a new thread.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #108 of 203
Bullshit. You have a strong conservative streak, even if you don't want to admit it, as evidenced by who you consistently call out by name. I hypothesize that if you truly disagreed with 99% equally, we'd see a more balanced distribution of those individuals you publicly rebuke.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #109 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Bullshit.

 

Now you're an authority on what I believe and think? How arrogant.

 

Anyway...feel free to start a thread wherein I'm the central topic of discussion.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #110 of 203
I will amend my statement to say that your previous reply smells strongly of bullshit. You are correct that I cannot know for sure. Still, looks like a turd, smells like a turd. I'm going to say turd.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #111 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I will amend my statement to say that your previous reply smells strongly of bullshit. You are correct that I cannot know for sure. Still, looks like a turd, smells like a turd. I'm going to say turd.

 

Perhaps it's not me or my posts you're smelling. A shower will help.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #112 of 203

How interesting.  I admit that I made too strong a statement and back off a bit.  You respond with a pathetic attempt at humor.  I make a gesture that recognizes you have a valid criticism, and you respond with hygiene jokes.  A man offers out his hand and you spit on it.  Is this part of the overall "**** you, I've got mine" libertarian mindset or are you just incapable of handling an adversary who admits a mistake, makes a concession, and revises a statement?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #113 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

How interesting.  I admit that I made too strong a statement and back off a bit.  You respond with a pathetic attempt at humor.

 

Actually I thought it was pretty good.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

A man offers out his hand and you spit on it.

 

If that was "offering out your hand" I'd hate to see what swinging a punch at my face looks like. lol.gif

 

Your attempt to sound like you somehow took the high road hear are quite lame.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Is this part of the overall "**** you, I've got mine" libertarian mindset or are you just incapable of handling an adversary who admits a mistake, makes a concession, and revises a statement?

 

No...it's part of..."You generally act like an asshole toward me (and many others) and treat people you disagree with like stupid, shitty morons and I have grown quite tired of it and allowed myself to violate my pledge to ignore your posts and get baited into replying to you against my better judgement" kind of thing.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #114 of 203

I'm not sorry that it bothers you to have it pointed out that you are wrong about evolution and global climate change.  I'm not sorry that it bothers you that you can't answer the tough questions with regard to your libertarianism.  

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #115 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I'm not sorry that it bothers you to have it pointed out that you are wrong about evolution and global climate change.

 

It doesn't bother me at all that you think I'm wrong on these issues.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I'm not sorry that it bothers you that you can't answer the tough questions with regard to your libertarianism.  

 

I can. I have. We're done.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #116 of 203

Saying you did while not having done so makes you what we commonly call a lying liar who lies.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #117 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Saying you did while not having done so makes you what we commonly call a lying liar who lies.

 

Claiming I haven't when I have make you what we commonly call a lying liar who lies.

 

Get lost troll.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #118 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

How interesting.  I admit that I made too strong a statement and back off a bit.  You respond with a pathetic attempt at humor.

Actually I thought it was pretty good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

A man offers out his hand and you spit on it.

If that was "offering out your hand" I'd hate to see what swinging a punch at my face looks like. lol.gif


Your attempt to sound like you somehow took the high road hear are quite lame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Is this part of the overall "**** you, I've got mine" libertarian mindset or are you just incapable of handling an adversary who admits a mistake, makes a concession, and revises a statement?

No...it's part of..."You generally act like an asshole toward me (and many others) and treat people you disagree with like stupid, shitty morons and I have grown quite tired of it and allowed myself to violate my pledge to ignore your posts and get baited into replying to you against my better judgement" kind of thing.
Seriously, MJ. With the amount that you patronize, ridicule, dismiss and too often ignore others' valid points, someone, some time needs to call a spade a spade. BR treats you like an asshole because you (first) treat him like someone inferior or childish. You are the primary aggressor.
post #119 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

BR treats you like an asshole because you (first) treat him like someone inferior or childish. You are the primary aggressor.

 

Bull-fucking-shit! And you fucking know it.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #120 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

BR treats you like an asshole because you (first) treat him like someone inferior or childish. You are the primary aggressor.

Bull-fucking-shit! And you fucking know it.
Oh, come on, please. If you look up condescension in the dictionary you'll find your own smirking face.

Consider the title of this goddamned thread. It's a backhanded insult that people who don't agree with you don't "understand", i.e. are stupid.
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