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Apple settles China iPad trademark dispute with Proview for $60 million - Page 2

post #41 of 71

Don't forget China has 5-6 times more people than USA. So when you talk about having more pollution, more nuclear reactors, etc, you need to take that into consideration. Otherwise, the logic is warped.

post #42 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omegalink View Post

Don't forget China has 5-6 times more people than USA. So when you talk about having more pollution, more nuclear reactors, etc, you need to take that into consideration. Otherwise, the logic is warped.

That's an interesting point. However, that's also the concern. China is breaking all these records, but yet, ~they've still got a long way to go~.

They are already pumping out more CO2 than the US. But with a fraction of GDP per capita.

Basically, if China had the GDP ~per capita~ of the USA all the planet's resources would be in serious, serious shortage... Not to mention the state of the Earth.

539
post #43 of 71
Good.

Now Proview's CEO and management can sell their organs and body parts to pay off another "smidgen" off the company's debts.
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Originally Posted by Granmastak: Labor unions managed to kill manufacturing a long time ago with their unreasonable demands. Now the people they were trying to protect, are out of a job.
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post #44 of 71

This is the risk for trying to do business in China. $60 million is nothing to Apple at this point but the point is they shouldn't have to pay for the rights twice for a trademark that no one else can create any value to it. 

post #45 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

 

You mean 'due diligence' as in inadequate disclosure to investors of material information with respect to the purchase of securities?

 

No, that probably didn't happen, seeing as this was the purchase of a trademark from a third party, and you seem to have confused it with a totally different situation entirely.

 

Please, Conrad, tell me you don't have a drivers licence. There are an awful lot of kids out playing by the side of the road these days...

No, he probably meant "Due Diligence" as in performing an independent investigation before signing a contract, acting with care. Yes, there's more than one meaning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_diligence

 

Making fun of others looks particularly silly when it bites you in your own butt. This is one of those cases. That's one of the better reasons to avoid it IMO. At least wait until he really does post something incorrect if you still feel the need to ridicule a post. We all make 'em so you'll get another chance.


Edited by Gatorguy - 7/2/12 at 3:37am
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post #46 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Based on my calculations of using 11.8 million units sold last quarter, an ARP of $650 and a net profit of $10 it took 7 days to make $60 million in profit in just the iPad division last quarter. While that's a lot it's still a drop in the bucket for this product.

 

I would think Apple makes a lot more than $10 profit per unit on the iPad.

post #47 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

That's a huge sum for a trademark they already paid for. I doubt things would have turned out as well had this taken place outside China. I wouldn't be surprised if Proview will get liquidated shortly with that $60M going straight to their creditors.


It is a huge sum, even if eminently affordable for Apple. Even assuming that this is related to lax laws or corruption in China, part of doing business internationally is learning and understanding laws of the land, including the official statutes and the *unofficial* ones. It sounds like Apple Lawyers could have done a more thorough job, particularly given the Taiwanese angle (which is always an issue when dealing with mainland China).

post #48 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by city View Post

This amounts to a China Tax that Apple should add on to the product price in China times three.

In essence this already occurs. Everything is more expensive in mainland China. Hong Kong is cheaper and the USA even cheaper.
post #49 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post

I would think Apple makes a lot more than $10 profit per unit on the iPad.

Indeed. I think it will only take 3 months to recover the fee. This was Proview's tactic. Leveraging time vs. a pain in the ....

I imagine The stronger Proview felt, the more they moved the goal post. Mediation was probably key to insuring the finish line did not move and legal rights were actually transferred.
post #50 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post
 

 

I agree with your comments about China, but you're wasting your time posting them on here.

 

$60m is probably worth it just to make this distraction go away.

 

As someone who has lost money as a creditor of a bankrupt company in the past I would say good luck to the creditors if they can get any of their money back.

post #51 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

No, he probably meant "Due Diligence" as in performing an independent investigation before signing a contract, acting with care. Yes, there's more than one meaning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_diligence

 

Making fun of others looks particularly silly when it bites you in your own butt. This is one of those cases. That's one of the better reasons to avoid it IMO. At least wait until he really does post something incorrect if you still feel the need to ridicule a post. We all make 'em so you'll get another chance.

 

I stand corrected.

 

I have absolutely no problem admitting when I am wrong.

 

I also stand by my assessment of him, which was not made on a single post but many. ;-)

post #52 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

As always, everyone assumes when I criticise China that I'm some pimply 18-year-old fat white kid in Middle America. And as always, I have to wave my credentials in the air... Born in Malaysia, half-Chinese, half-Indian, lived in KL, Singapore, 4 Australian cities, San Francisco. Read & Write English, Malay, basic Mandarin, can understand simple Cantonese.
I can haz criticize China now?
This political correctness nonsense has to end. Call a spade a spade. Proview are crooks and so is the corrupt political and legal framework in China. What's more disturbing (or not, I suppose) is that this is all par for the course in Asia.
I'm not asking anyone to walk out on the street and punch anyone of Chinese ethnicity.
There's some bad stuff going on in China and all of us, regardless of race or nationality, should be concerned. There's some bad stuff going on in Malaysia, but what I would like to highlight is that the saviour of the global economy, aka China, is not a pleasant place. Yes, any country has issues. But given the importance of China you really want to have a good look at it and see what's happening.
By 2050 China will have the largest economy. The largest consumption. The largest population. The largest military perhaps. The largest carbon emissions. A man/woman on the Moon and Mars even. And it already is one of the most polluted countries in the world, by 2050 it will probably have the highest level of pollution.
The things happening in China, good and bad, are at a scale that is beyond human imagination itself, and certainly will far surpass anything the USA has done. Just when the US overtook the British, this is the point in time when China overtakes the US.
Do people actually know that China has over 40 nuclear reactors? A big proportion under construction, but which country has 27 brand new nuclear plants under construction? Mmmm mmm the best part? Most of it is near the coast. Draw your own conclusions from that.
Time to can the niceness and look at the facts. Do you know for example that most rural migrants to cities do not qualify for basic healthcare and other services due to urban registration requirements? Maybe that's one of the things causing them to jump off factory roofs.
I can tell you even Malaysian Chinese are very wary of the "motherland". For example there's been waves of prostitutes from China coming to Malaysia under the guise of "student visas". And that's only the tip of the iceberg.
But, where will we draw the line? We are in China's holding cell. I understand Apple's motivations but this piece of meat has been fed to a pretty big Monster, not Proview.

Aside from the tone, there's a lot of truth in what you say. I've been to nearly 30 countries (including multiple trips to China) and the only country that I'm less likely to want to go back to is Pakistan. But, unfortunately, we created much of the problem starting about 25 years ago when we allowed China to manipulate their currency and take over the world's manufacturing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesota_Steve View Post

In essence this already occurs. Everything is more expensive in mainland China. Hong Kong is cheaper and the USA even cheaper.

I suspect you've never been to either China or Hong Kong. Things in Hong Kong are horribly expensive. Things in China are often dirt cheap. Most of the US is in the middle (although the most expensive US cities can approach Hong Kong on some items).
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post #53 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

 

I stand corrected.

 

I have absolutely no problem admitting when I am wrong.

 

I also stand by my assessment of him, which was not made on a single post but many. ;-)

Fair enough. I don't care for some of his posts either. Many just seem like they're intended only to get a negative response.

 

BTW, it shows character and self-esteem to admit you're wrong. I wish everyone here would be so humble. 

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post #54 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeTheRock View Post

I have no doubt that Apple could have continued to pursue, and eventually win, the case, but there's nothing to gain from fighting an already bankrupt company. 

What happened to the "Apple won't cave in to a bankrupt company, they just need to wait a few weeks"?

 

Maybe Apple wasn't that clean on the case and they finally admitted it?

Maybe Apple was quite clean and chinese courts aren't exactly incorruptible?

 

I don't know, myself, but I do find that AppleInsider forum dwellers have a very partial way of interpreting court decisions and Apple court moves... then again, it's not entirely unsurprising.

Right now, I'd rather have more news on the "new iPhone"... whatever it's called :D

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

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post #55 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Aside from the tone, there's a lot of truth in what you say. I've been to nearly 30 countries (including multiple trips to China) and the only country that I'm less likely to want to go back to is Pakistan. But, unfortunately, we created much of the problem starting about 25 years ago when we allowed China to manipulate their currency and take over the world's manufacturing.
I suspect you've never been to either China or Hong Kong. Things in Hong Kong are horribly expensive. Things in China are often dirt cheap. Most of the US is in the middle (although the most expensive US cities can approach Hong Kong on some items).


If I may, *some* things in Hong Kong are horribly expensive. Some things are quite cheap. The latter is more common in mainland China, by far.

post #56 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Aside from the tone, there's a lot of truth in what you say. I've been to nearly 30 countries (including multiple trips to China) and the only country that I'm less likely to want to go back to is Pakistan. But, unfortunately, we created much of the problem starting about 25 years ago when we allowed China to manipulate their currency and take over the world's manufacturing.

I appreciate the feedback. My tone is certainly inflammatory at times but I try to keep to the content as far as possible. While it may not be presented in the most palatable way, you get to a certain age when you couldn't be bothered beating around the bush, especially once one themselves realises all these things that are going on. Without digressing, did you know Iran was elected to the UN Commission for Women's Rights? Surely I jest? Nope... http://www.humanevents.com/2010/05/07/iran-elected-to-un-commission-on-women/

I mention the above link only because in the context of the China debate we must keep in mind that some countries are exploiting political correctness and subverting the very principles that gave rise to political correctness. I've promised to not hijack threads, so I'll just say this is one of the things that get me... That seriously dodgy people and countries are ingeniously exploiting political correctness and the left-right divide in Western countries. Because just like this Apple case... If you say China is horrible you are either a Fox Newser or a bigot. If you say China is land of milk, honey and happiness then it's courteous but common sense tells you that's rubbish. Common sense will tell you that they are just people trying to make a better life, but at best some in China are probably going about it in a very misinformed way. It's okay saying that's a country, we need to respect their way of life. But when that country starts to call a lot of the shots on the world stage, will ~you~ now have to ask ~them~ to respect ~your~ way of life? Rich, fat, white people deserve justice too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

What happened to the "Apple won't cave in to a bankrupt company, they just need to wait a few weeks"?

Maybe Apple wasn't that clean on the case and they finally admitted it?
Maybe Apple was quite clean and chinese courts aren't exactly incorruptible?

The mountains of evidence have been presented. Apple was generally clean as far as the evidence goes, the only thing is at worst, that they were caught up in the technicalities. Apple settling is either seen as an act of generosity, unethical Apple practice, or a caving to a lower level of business and legal ethics in Asia. A spade is a spade. Let's not grease it up in margerine and call it organic butter.
Edited by sr2012 - 7/2/12 at 6:49am
post #57 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post

I agree with your comments about China, but you're wasting your time posting them on here.

Thanks, but I take it that as long as the issues are reported in AI regular forums not PoliticalOutsider then I'll have my say. One day I'll be a "proper" activist but for now you all will unfortunately have to deal with me here.
post #58 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

I stand corrected.

I have absolutely no problem admitting when I am wrong.

I also stand by my assessment of him, which was not made on a single post but many. ;-)

I have no idea what this is about. Maybe because I've been too far up my own *** berating China 1smile.gif <---ARGH supposed to be a smiley it's not showing up still...
post #59 of 71

I think Apple realised that they weren't fighting Proview, they were fighting the Government. Proview's liquidators only asked for what they owed to clear the debts.

As the debts were mostly owed to the banks, it was in the Government's (and therefore the court's) interest for Proview to get a good result.

The banks will have written that money off long ago so they'll be happy with the result.

 

At least Apple now know how s*** goes down in China now, they won't fall for that again.

post #60 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post

I would think Apple makes a lot more than $10 profit per unit on the iPad.

It's a typo. It's 10% net profit. Check the math.

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post #61 of 71
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Originally Posted by festerfeet View Post

That came across as a rant.

Perhaps you should be a little more specific in your explanations and less emotional. Yes, China has problems which are very real and others which are perceived because practises are different.

Rather than scaremongering, complaining and firing off gross generalities why not either discuss the topic or perhaps offer some suggestions of how you have actually or could potentially help in solving some of those problems or bridging the gap of misunderstanding.

If it's a rant, then it's a rant. If it's inappropriate, then appropriate action can be taken to remove my posts, though while passionate I don't think it is offensive nor inappropriate, given the topic of this thread which is certainly ~interesting~.

"Practices that are different"? This is the kind of political correctness that first must be addressed before we can bridge the gap "of misunderstanding". Until people of many races and nationalities can truly say what they think we will not come to an understanding. If some guy off the street promised to sell you an iPad for $500, you paid, then he didn't give it to you, then said you must pay another $50,000 for the iPad, is it because his "practices are different"? If he was Caucasian or Asian does it matter since he's a scumbag scammer?

Let's look at the topic of this thread. There's extortion, subversion of the rule of law, most likely bribery and corruption at various levels of government, arbitrary seizing of private and commercial property (iPads etc) with no recourse as to what happens to such property. The question this Apple case poses is simply, is this acceptable for us as human beings. If yes, fine, go about your business, call me a mad raving nutjob. If no, then you'll agree with ~some~ of what I say and are at least a little interested with the game Apple themselves are now playing, and a game that the West is now inextricably involved in. Perhaps I'm scaremongering but the issues arising out of this Apple case are certainly ~scary~. One can note from the comments that at best this case seems to be "something that happens in the US". At worst, much worse. But we have not noted anything out of this case that seems to be "something better than what happens in the US". This point bears consideration.

[To the other poster(s)]

On the topic of China, yes, I have not physically been to China, and I admit I don't intend to. My "insider" experience is simply what I stated above, not that that is required in any way to be able to judge/ analyse/ criticise the situation. I am not saying I'm better than you, I'm saying consider what I have to say, yes, in relation to the topic. Does one have to spend a month in Iran to know things are not so good there? Why not Sudan? I hear they offer "visit us and really feel shit about the world" tours. I'm not saying the ordinary Chinese citizen is the real bad guy here, they are caught up in these issues and I would say I speak for them as much as for myself. That's why we should talk about the situation as it is. Then the understanding can be reached. I'm sure the Chinese business owner that got his iPads seized (and maybe the next day sees the official's daughter with it), for example, probably agrees with me.

(Yes, yes, one day I'll be able to use my "colourful" "argumentative" skills in better ways, like I said, for now, er... deal with it)
Edited by sr2012 - 7/2/12 at 7:15am
post #62 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Santoanderson View Post

So what's Proview going to do with all that money? Create crappy iPhone and iPad peripherals.

charlituna gave you a way better answer than me "but please read the article before posting"
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Based on my calculations of using 11.8 million units sold last quarter, an ARP of $650 and a net profit of $10 it took 7 days to make $60 million in profit in just the iPad division last quarter. While that's a lot it's still a drop in the bucket for this product.

Excellent calc there, but I simply do not understand why Apple has to pay because 'Proview had argued that the Chinese trademark hadn't been included in a deal to transfer other international rights because legal representatives from its Shenzhen affiliate weren't present when the contract was signed.' What's up with this world, a company can be held liable for - or fuggetabutit

PS Totally missing sr2012 point with the China rant.
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post #63 of 71
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Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

PS Totally missing sr2012 point with the China rant.

That's okay, sooner or later it will sink in. Then it will be too late : )
post #64 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by NormM View Post

This is giving in to blackmail, but it seems the Chinese courts were going to let this drag out, and a quick settlement is worth a lot to Apple.

That is the cost of doing business in this 3rd world country (and a lot of others). The officials expect bribes, the banking institutions put a lot of pressure on the courts because they are old school with old school ties to the big red.

It is unfortunate that Apple had to pay for something it already owned but it does help send a message to world about China and how the continue the evil of the past. I had thought that maybe the desire to be treated like a grown up and a partner would be something that they would think highly enough of in the world view but greed today won out. I hope this means more companies will find that making something here (in the US) is becoming more competitive as China's labor cost and double dipping drive their price up.
post #65 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Santoanderson View Post

So what's Proview going to do with all that money?

Go bankrupt one day later than they would have otherwise.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #66 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Go bankrupt one day later than they would have otherwise.

Funnily enough they were already bankrupt when they started their little scam.
post #67 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

If it's a rant, then it's a rant. If it's inappropriate, then appropriate action can be taken to remove my posts, though while passionate I don't think it is offensive nor inappropriate, given the topic of this thread which is certainly ~interesting~.

On the topic of China, yes, I have not physically been to China, and I admit I don't intend to. My "insider" experience is simply what I stated above, not that that is required in any way to be able to judge/ analyse/ criticise the situation. I am not saying I'm better than you, I'm saying consider what I have to say, yes, in relation to the topic. Does one have to spend a month in Iran to know things are not so good there? Why not Sudan? I hear they offer "visit us and really feel shit about the world" tours. I'm not saying the ordinary Chinese citizen is the real bad guy here, they are caught up in these issues and I would say I speak for them as much as for myself. That's why we should talk about the situation as it is. Then the understanding can be reached. I'm sure the Chinese business owner that got his iPads seized (and maybe the next day sees the official's daughter with it), for example, probably agrees with me.
(Yes, yes, one day I'll be able to use my "colourful" "argumentative" skills in better ways, like I said, for now, er... deal with it)

It was a rant and it was bigoted. You mentioned awful things happening in China as if that they are accepted practices and that they don't happen elsewhere in the world. Note that you commented on pollution and unsafe conditions and crime as if any of the specifics you mentioned are somehow only happening in China. You claim that anyone who disagrees with you is just being, and I quote, "politically correct" but you fail to see that you're only making these claims about China, hence my comment that you are sounding bigoted and xeonphobic.

There are atrocities in the world that are not based on an entire nation of 1.5 billion people covering 3.7 million square miles.

I've been to China and many other countries in this world and each has their pros and cons, their pluses and minuses. There is no one culture that is better or worse than the other but I have encountered individual people who are ignorant, petty and insecure.

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post #68 of 71

1. Can Apple write off this $60 million Settlement as a Business Loss to reduce its taxes? 

2. If yes, which taxes: in US, in China, or in both?

 

As a matter of just $$$, particularly if this Settlement can be used as a "Deduction" on taxes, maybe it's a non issue?

 

As a matter of • principle •, it's sad to see such extortion prevail…  

Morally, Apple won this case, cause it can be considered a victim of an extortion! But of course there are those who will never forgive Apple for Doing Well, or for not doing what they think Apple should be doing with its profits!!!! 

 

China's Legal System is again confirmed as a Dark Place! Maybe that fact might help Apple in the future challenges in China?  

 

No matter how powerful China gets, it, like all countries, is going to need a Positive PR Image on the World Stage!!! So, I hope things will get more "civilized" there, and everywhere in the world!!! The recent Health Care topic in the US was another reminder how insane things can get… 

 

Go  Apple, AAPL!!!

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Go  Apple, AAPL!!!

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post #69 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by macologist View Post

1. Can Apple write off this $60 million Settlement as a Business Loss to reduce its taxes? 
2. If yes, which taxes: in US, in China, or in both?

As a matter of just $$$, particularly if this Settlement can be used as a "Deduction" on taxes, maybe it's a non issue?

This settlement will be deductible as a normal business expense by whoever paid it. That is, if Apple China paid it, it will be deductible in China. If Apple US paid it, it will be deductible in the US.

It is NOT, however, a non issue. A tax deduction does not make you whole. If Apple is in the 33% tax bracket (they're actually lower than that), then a $60 M expense would save them $20 M in taxes, so the net cost would still be $40 M.
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post #70 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post


Unbreathable air, kids getting run over and no one helping, women getting molested on buses etc etc. "Developed" nation? China will never be one, not in the next 20 years anyway.

A bit derogatory if you ask me, if one has to recap every nutjob/appalling story coming out of the good ol' USA and start making crass generalizations... Yeah 'developed', it's not as if they had just returned from space, building their own space station...

post #71 of 71

Still reading Jobs Biography. He would NEVER have allowed this. 

 

It is a great read and this guy is FIERY! 

 

Well, I guess now everyone and their mother is going to come out and sue Apple. 

 

This is why you can't negotiate with criminals. They will just use whatever you give them as more ammunition against you. (Not saying China is full of criminals, but I did work in intel and well....Bing operation "Titan Rain")

 

Unfortunately, 60 million is a lot to everyone else and this will cause a lot more lawsuits with a ton of "evidence" of Apple's lack of dutiful research. 

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