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On The Topic Of Racism

post #1 of 49
Thread Starter 
On a serious note...

You don't know racism until you are sitting in a restaurant in your own birth country of citizenship and they refuse to serve you a drink because you simply "look" Muslim and it's fasting month. (They aren't closed, they are open and serve non-Muslim "looking" patrons, any "Muslim-looking" patrons must take-away food and drink, where then nobody cares whether you fast or not).

You don't know racism until you see random people giving you the finger or screaming at you as they drive by.

You don't know racism until you show up at an apartment in a posh part of town looking to rent it and the owner thinks you're a pizza delivery guy.

You don't know racism until your buddy, by birth, has access to all kinds of preferential loans and business deals, and you, just as capable, have access to none.

You don't know racism until your whole family has to move 3000 miles to a whole new country because we don't have access to university education.

You don't know racism until you see your whole race confined to ghettos with no access to political and economic positions of significance.

You don't know racism until you see new young mothers refuse to put their kids in national schools because of fear for their kids.

You don't know racism until you see entire generations of high school dropouts of ~your race~ barely able to speak English or even Mandarin working nonsense jobs because quality public higher education is disallowed for them.

You don't know racism until you realise for your whole life there is an entire side of your family that will never even speak to you because you are not of their "pure" race.

So get back to me when you do.
Edited by sr2012 - 7/2/12 at 9:32am
post #2 of 49

hmm... race seems to matter to YOU.

 

Doesn't matter at all to ME.

 

So who's "racist" ?

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #3 of 49
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

hmm... race seems to matter to YOU.

Doesn't matter at all to ME.

So who's "racist" ?

Well, have you had any of the above happen to you?
post #4 of 49

I don't believe one necessarily has to experience something personally to understand what it is.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #5 of 49

I don't believe any of those things happened in the U.S.  Oh, wait I get it, It's an anti-Israel post. 

post #6 of 49

flame-bait-david-april.jpg

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post #7 of 49

You also do not experience racism until you are in the military. Believe me I experienced it plenty in the states especially and also in the Far East.Even in today's times I still have to deal with it plenty.Really pathetic to think about.
 

post #8 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

You also do not experience racism until you are in the military. Believe me I experienced it plenty in the states especially and also in the Far East.Even in today's times I still have to deal with it plenty.Really pathetic to think about.
 

 

WTF?

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post #9 of 49

Muslim isn't a race ... it's a religion.

 

People scream at me and give me the finger all the time.

 

Yes, I have friends who have access to all kinds of preferential treatment because of their race... loans, education, job opportunities... (I've no idea where you are, though your post leads me to believe "China", but here in the USA, racial minorities get preferential consideration for all those things.)

 

Kids in schools?... I would fear for my kids if they were in public (national) schools....

 

 

 

So quit whining about how you've been so oppressed and just go out and do something constructive with your life... you'll find that most of us really don't care about your genetic background so much as your attitude!!!

 

(yes... he/she/it is baiting us, but I DID get a response to my initial post where I pointed out that his own attitude is the racist one.)

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #10 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Muslim isn't a race ... it's a religion.

 

People scream at me and give me the finger all the time.

 

Yes, I have friends who have access to all kinds of preferential treatment because of their race... loans, education, job opportunities... (I've no idea where you are, though your post leads me to believe "China", but here in the USA, racial minorities get preferential consideration for all those things.)

 

Kids in schools?... I would fear for my kids if they were in public (national) schools....

 

 

 

So quit whining about how you've been so oppressed and just go out and do something constructive with your life... you'll find that most of us really don't care about your genetic background so much as your attitude!!!

 

(yes... he/she/it is baiting us, but I DID get a response to my initial post where I pointed out that his own attitude is the racist one.)

 

It's an anti-Israeli post.  That's about it.  

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post #11 of 49

Really world there is no corner stone on racism. The pity party has a lot of participants. 

post #12 of 49

Hey teacher explain yourself instead        of your snide remarks!
 

post #13 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

 

You really aren't the brightest under the sun, are you?

 

3,000 miles... Mandarin... should be enough hints that it isn't Israel he is describing.

 

Reported.  And, I didn't see the 3,000 miles part.  

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post #14 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Hey teacher explain yourself instead        of your snide remarks!
 

 

I will be happy to explain myself, though I don't see what my profession has to do with it.  You posted this comment: 

 

"You also do not experience racism until you are in the military."

 

This comment is breathtakingly stupid and offensive.  Did Rosa Parks experience racism?  Did slaves?  Did a generation of blacks who had to drink out of "colored" water fountains and sit in separate areas of public places experience it?  Did the Irish immigrants experience it?  Any racism you experience today in this country cannot possibly equal what others have suffered without once putting on a uniform.  

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post #15 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

 

I will be happy to explain myself, though I don't see what my profession has to do with it.  You posted this comment: 

 

"You also do not experience racism until you are in the military."

 

This comment is breathtakingly stupid and offensive.  Did Rosa Parks experience racism?  Did slaves?  Did a generation of blacks who had to drink out of "colored" water fountains and sit in separate areas of public places experience it?  Did the Irish immigrants experience it?  Any racism you experience today in this country cannot possibly equal what others have suffered without once putting on a uniform.  

 Not sure where you are trying to go with this, nor am I sure sure how any racism experienced by you is any worse than that experienced by any other person.

post #16 of 49

Ask the Jews who still experience today.Go to the Deep South or in Idaho or SD or ND and see what I mean.
 

post #17 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

On a serious note...
You don't know racism until you are sitting in a restaurant in your own birth country of citizenship and they refuse to serve you a drink because you simply "look" Muslim and it's fasting month. (They aren't closed, they are open and serve non-Muslim "looking" patrons, any "Muslim-looking" patrons must take-away food and drink, where then nobody cares whether you fast or not).
You don't know racism until you see random people giving you the finger or screaming at you as they drive by.
You don't know racism until you show up at an apartment in a posh part of town looking to rent it and the owner thinks you're a pizza delivery guy.
You don't know racism until your buddy, by birth, has access to all kinds of preferential loans and business deals, and you, just as capable, have access to none.
You don't know racism until your whole family has to move 3000 miles to a whole new country because we don't have access to university education.
You don't know racism until you see your whole race confined to ghettos with no access to political and economic positions of significance.
You don't know racism until you see new young mothers refuse to put their kids in national schools because of fear for their kids.
You don't know racism until you see entire generations of high school dropouts of ~your race~ barely able to speak English or even Mandarin working nonsense jobs because quality public higher education is disallowed for them.
You don't know racism until you realise for your whole life there is an entire side of your family that will never even speak to you because you are not of their "pure" race.
So get back to me when you do.

This sounds similar to the racism against the blacks in the United States after slavery was abolished but before the civil rights movement was successful in the sixties.

I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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post #18 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

 Not sure where you are trying to go with this, nor am I sure sure how any racism experienced by you is any worse than that experienced by any other person.

 

 

I am responding to marvfox.  I am not making any of the claims you mention above.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Ask the Jews who still experience today.Go to the Deep South or in Idaho or SD or ND and see what I mean.
 

 

I thought I had to be in the military?  And...Idaho?  lol.gif

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post #19 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Ask the Jews who still experience today.Go to the Deep South or in Idaho or SD or ND and see what I mean.
 

Been to all of the above.

I don't see what you mean.

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #20 of 49

You have to be Jewish to experience what I am saying.
 

post #21 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

You have to be Jewish to experience what I am saying.
 

 

Prove it.  

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post #22 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

You have to be Jewish to experience what I am saying.
 

 Indeed, to be a victim of  antisemitism one needs to be Jewish. That is not the same as saying that you have to be Jewish to understand or experience discrimination.

post #23 of 49
Thread Starter 
Interesting.

1. I wrote the original post because I am being accused of being bigoted and xenophobic towards China.

2. The situation I describe are my experiences in the US, Australia, and the worst experience of racism, my birth country of Malaysia.

3. In certain countries you can "look" Muslim, if the race you look like is usually Muslim, or forced to be Muslim like Malays in Malaysia.

4. Interestingly, there are cases of "reverse-discrimination". Like in the SF Bay Area because I look Indian I may have been thought to be naturally good at technology. In Australia because of my somewhat British accent I may be thought of as being well-educated with international exposure.

5. Political Correctness must be set aside. The clear example is Europe where tolerance of intolerance has become so widespread it paralyses entire nations. Same in Malaysia. Chinese and Indians tolerating extreme intolerance from Malay-Muslims (eg. "fatwa" on tomboys) is tearing the country apart.

6. I ask you. How much of China's, or Muslim Countries' ~intolerance~ are you going to ~tolerate~? Like I said, it's all well and good trying to respect other cultures, until the time comes when you have to beg them to respect your culture, like ethnic Chinese and Indians must do now in Malaysia. Begging. Like dogs, we are, begging for our birthright in Malaysia. Ethnic cleansing can be of the high-pressure-hose type or the slow-boil type. In all cases, it is still insidious.
post #24 of 49
Thread Starter 
Well, this topic is certainly not for the fainthearted, some may see more ease in just bashing Obama day in and day out, never once dipping further into the pie of substance, merely sniffing the garnishing.

I challenge you to address the issue of whether I have been bigoted and xenophobic towards China.

(Great image though... LOL)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

LL
post #25 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

Interesting.
1. I wrote the original post because I am being accused of being bigoted and xenophobic towards China.
2. The situation I describe are my experiences in the US, Australia, and the worst experience of racism, my birth country of Malaysia.
3. In certain countries you can "look" Muslim, if the race you look like is usually Muslim, or forced to be Muslim like Malays in Malaysia.
4. Interestingly, there are cases of "reverse-discrimination". Like in the SF Bay Area because I look Indian I may have been thought to be naturally good at technology. In Australia because of my somewhat British accent I may be thought of as being well-educated with international exposure.
5. Political Correctness must be set aside. The clear example is Europe where tolerance of intolerance has become so widespread it paralyses entire nations. Same in Malaysia. Chinese and Indians tolerating extreme intolerance from Malay-Muslims (eg. "fatwa" on tomboys) is tearing the country apart.
6. I ask you. How much of China's, or Muslim Countries' ~intolerance~ are you going to ~tolerate~? Like I said, it's all well and good trying to respect other cultures, until the time comes when you have to beg them to respect your culture, like ethnic Chinese and Indians must do now in Malaysia. Begging. Like dogs, we are, begging for our birthright in Malaysia. Ethnic cleansing can be of the high-pressure-hose type or the slow-boil type. In all cases, it is still insidious.

1. It does not follow that being a victim of racism prevents one from being a racist- i am not familiar with the posts in question and thus am not accusing you of anything.

2.. Not relevant to me

3. The US gov routinely incorrectly assume that i am Muslim and accordingly see me as a risk that must undergo extra searches and questioning on entry to the USA. Otherwise, people assuming that I am from the same community as them has never disadvantaged me.

4. Reverse discrimination is still discrimination

5. As a European  I see the tolerance of (some) intolerant minority group members as being the result of intolerance on behalf of the majority. "Political correctness" is a term used by the intolerant to bemoan the actions of those trying to be fair and inclusive. No idea what you are talking about with regard to the  paralysis

6. Now you run the risk of sounding like a bigot but I would add that I think that religion has no place in the fair governance of people.

post #26 of 49
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

1. It does not follow that being a victim of racism prevents one from being a racist- i am not familiar with the posts in question and thus am not accusing you of anything.
2.. Not relevant to me
3. The US gov routinely incorrectly assume that i am Muslim and accordingly see me as a risk that must undergo extra searches and questioning on entry to the USA. Otherwise, people assuming that I am from the same community as them has never disadvantaged me.
4. Reverse discrimination is still discrimination
5. As a European  I see the tolerance of (some) intolerant minority group members as being the result of intolerance on behalf of the majority. "Political correctness" is a term used by the intolerant to bemoan the actions of those trying to be fair and inclusive. No idea what you are talking about with regard to the  paralysis
6. Now you run the risk of sounding like a bigot but I would add that I think that religion has no place in the fair governance of people.

1. Not referring to you. Those who accused me know who they are.
2. OK no worries.
3. This is racial profiling and is a concern.
4. Indeed, but at the same time we can't ignore natural tendencies to think things like, "oh, Asian kids [in the West] are smart". This is a form of racism but less toxic.
5. The pendulum has swung the other way ~ eg Netherlands, France being far too tolerant of Muslim extremism.
6. Well, let me put forward that non-Malay-Mulims in Malaysia are highly disadvantaged and there is institutionalised racism. eg. quota system for universities, lack of access to loans, etc [this is a fact of life and no one even bothers to hide this, and it was supposed to be rescinded after 50 years of independence etc]. If saying this makes me a bigot, then there is no hope for the world. When speaking out about the bigots makes one a bigot, then we as humanity are truly f**ked. It is this kind of confusion that leads to Iran leading the UN Women's Rights bodies and other idiocy like this.

Morality can be plastic. But basic human rights, like torturing women for being victims of rape and that kind of stuff, c'mon, most of us know in our hearts what's right and what's wrong. Political Correctness has muddied the waters unnecessarily. When the UN becomes so distorted due to, let's face it, asshole countries in major decision-making roles, you know something is not right in the world.

Let's use 50% heart and 50% brain, not 100% of either. Things become very clear then.
Edited by sr2012 - 7/7/12 at 9:54am
post #27 of 49

I am Jewish that is what i am implying to you.
 

post #28 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

2. The situation I describe are my experiences in the US, Australia, and the worst experience of racism, my birth country of Malaysia.
 

 

Malaysia's discrimination is not racism, it is a sort of affirmative action that was envisioned by the late british colonists, before they let Malaysia into independence, to help the natives and Malays to develop better so that they would eventually be equally capable as the indian and chinese communities that came later but were far more developed:

 

[Quote]

At the time of Malaya's independence from the British in 1957, the population included many first or second-generation immigrants who had come to fill colonial manpower needs as indentured labourers. Chinese entrepreneurs, who typically settled in urban areas, played a significant role in the commercial sector. TheCommunities Liaison Committee (CLC), comprising leading politicians from different racial backgrounds, supported the promotion of economic equality for the Malays, conditional on political equality for the non-Malays. CLC member E.E.C. Thuraisingham later said, "I and others believed that the backward Malays should be given a better deal. Malays should be assisted to attain parity with non-Malays to forge a united Malayan Nation of equals."[7]

As a result, Article 153 of the Constitution states that,

It shall be the responsibility of the Yang di-Pertuan Agong to safeguard the special position of the Malays and natives of any of the States of Sabah and Sarawak and the legitimate interests of other communities in accordance with the provisions of this Article.
[/Quote]
 
 
The Malays back then were backward, uneducated and relatively unskilled compared to the chinese, indian immigrants and so affirmative action-policy was put into the constitution to change that.
 
It was an overwhelming success, today the Malays are not only equal but even more developed than the chinese and indian communities. 
 
But today the Malays don't need affirmative action anymore and it would be wise to change the constitution accordingly, ie. to put a sun-set-clause in. The current government though is invested in the affirmative action-policy as abolishing it would cost them many votes and their coalition would break down, but the opposition who promised to abolish the affirmative action when in power could do that. For that to happen all non-Malays would have to vote for the opposition, after all they comprise half of Malaysia's citizens.
 
But apparently many non-malays still vote for the current government (maybe bribed?).
 
If anything can be learned from this it is that affirmative action is useful and sometimes necessary but without a sunset-clause the danger is that it becomes eternal and then what was once a good policy to achieve equality for a undeveloped community (ie. positive discriminiation) turns into negative discrimination once the undeveloped community has achieved equality and even more.
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post #29 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

 Indeed, to be a victim of  antisemitism one needs to be Jewish. That is not the same as saying that you have to be Jewish to understand or experience discrimination.

 

 

Agreed.  In fact, we all experience discrimination to a degree.   Anecdotally speaking, I'm starting to notice that white males are being passed over in my field...in favor of women and minorities.  I think is is pretty common as more and more employers, colleges and other organizations become more "diversity" obsessed.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

Interesting.
1. I wrote the original post because I am being accused of being bigoted and xenophobic towards China.
2. The situation I describe are my experiences in the US, Australia, and the worst experience of racism, my birth country of Malaysia.
3. In certain countries you can "look" Muslim, if the race you look like is usually Muslim, or forced to be Muslim like Malays in Malaysia.
4. Interestingly, there are cases of "reverse-discrimination". Like in the SF Bay Area because I look Indian I may have been thought to be naturally good at technology. In Australia because of my somewhat British accent I may be thought of as being well-educated with international exposure.
5. Political Correctness must be set aside. The clear example is Europe where tolerance of intolerance has become so widespread it paralyses entire nations. Same in Malaysia. Chinese and Indians tolerating extreme intolerance from Malay-Muslims (eg. "fatwa" on tomboys) is tearing the country apart.
6. I ask you. How much of China's, or Muslim Countries' ~intolerance~ are you going to ~tolerate~? Like I said, it's all well and good trying to respect other cultures, until the time comes when you have to beg them to respect your culture, like ethnic Chinese and Indians must do now in Malaysia. Begging. Like dogs, we are, begging for our birthright in Malaysia. Ethnic cleansing can be of the high-pressure-hose type or the slow-boil type. In all cases, it is still insidious.

 

1.  Got it.

 

2.  Ditto

 

3.  The way people look affects others' judgement.  It's just the way it is.  

 

4.  That's not reverse discrimination.  That's racial stereotyping.  Racial, Ethnic or Religious discrimination would be if you are denied something (anything..a freedom, a job, entrance to an establishment) as a result.  

 

5.  It doesn't seem that you're willing to place it aside.  When you talk of being discriminated against because people assign certain stereotypes to you (in this case, positive ones such as being good with tech), that's not placing it aside.  I don't know what "tolerance of intolerance" is to you, exactly.  To me, it would include the fact that, say, the UK seems to look the other way as radical Muslims use the country and a fundraising base of operations, all the while demanding that the UK (London, England to be exact) bow to their cultural "sensibilities."  

 

6.  As much as race is an issue here in the U.S., it seems to me that it is a much bigger problem in the region of the world you're referencing.  We are accused of anti-Muslim policies and racism in general.  But in certain places in the Muslim world, racism (and worse) seems commonplace.   A little off topic here...but sometimes I think that for all our problems, what may save the U.S. is its diversity and blend of cultures.  We still have racism, but overall our culture tolerates people of all different backgrounds exceptionally well.  I assume this can only be a strength.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

I am Jewish that is what i am implying to you.
 

 

But that doesn't mean you're the only one here that experiences racism or religious discrimination.  It doesn't mean one has to be Jewish to understand.  

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post #30 of 49

You have a point I must say.
 

post #31 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

 

Malaysia's discrimination is not racism, it is a sort of affirmative action ...[/Quote]

 
 

WTF ?!?

 

Discrimination based on race is racism.

Affirmative action based on race IS RACISM.

Just because it's instituted at the governmental level doesn't change anything.  If race is considered in making a decision or forming opinion, then that's racism.

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #32 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

WTF ?!?

 

Discrimination based on race is racism.

Affirmative action based on race IS RACISM.

Just because it's instituted at the governmental level doesn't change anything.  If race is considered in making a decision or forming opinion, then that's racism.

 

I happen to agree with you.  Many others do not.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #33 of 49
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

Malaysia's discrimination is not racism, it is a sort of affirmative action that was envisioned by the late british colonists, before they let Malaysia into independence, to help the natives and Malays to develop better so that they would eventually be equally capable as the indian and chinese communities that came later but were far more developed:
Quote:
At the time of Malaya's independence from the British in 1957, the population included many first or second-generation immigrants who had come to fill colonial manpower needs as indentured labourers
. Chinese entrepreneurs, who typically settled in urban areas, played a significant role in the commercial sector. TheCommunities Liaison Committee
 (CLC), comprising leading politicians from different racial backgrounds, supported the promotion of economic equality for the Malays, conditional on political equality for the non-Malays. CLC member E.E.C. Thuraisingham
 later said, "I and others believed that the backward Malays should be given a better deal. Malays should be assisted to attain parity with non-Malays to forge a united Malayan Nation of equals."[7]


As a result, Article 153
 of the Constitution states that,




It shall be the responsibility of the Yang di-Pertuan Agong
 to safeguard the special position of the Malays and natives of any of the States of Sabah and Sarawak and the legitimate interests of other communities in accordance with the provisions of this Article.





 
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumiputera_(Malaysia)
 
The Malays back then were backward, uneducated and relatively unskilled compared to the chinese, indian immigrants and so affirmative action-policy was put into the constitution to change that.
 
It was an overwhelming success, today the Malays are not only equal but even more developed than the chinese and indian communities. 
 
But today the Malays don't need affirmative action anymore and it would be wise to change the constitution accordingly, ie. to put a sun-set-clause in. The current government though is invested in the affirmative action-policy as abolishing it would cost them many votes and their coalition would break down, but the opposition who promised to abolish the affirmative action when in power could do that. For that to happen all non-Malays would have to vote for the opposition, after all they comprise half of Malaysia's citizens.
 
But apparently many non-malays still vote for the current government (maybe bribed?).
 
If anything can be learned from this it is that affirmative action is useful and sometimes necessary but without a sunset-clause the danger is that it becomes eternal and then what was once a good policy to achieve equality for a undeveloped community (ie. positive discriminiation) turns into negative discrimination once the undeveloped community has achieved equality and even more.

Thank you very much for taking the time to understand the fundamental flaw of Malaysia. A once proud country with great potential now sliding backwards in history. "Affirmative Action" has gone well past its use-by date. Up to the year 1995, I can accept, but most citizens never thought it would go on forever. It is institutionalised racism now, at best.

As for the Agong (King) and the Sultans of the states, they do f**k all nowadays. They don't even protect the rights of the underprivileged Malays. Note that a lot of the unrest in Malaysia is from Malays themselves because they see some Malays with connections to government live the good life, and many, many Malays are missing out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


Agreed.  In fact, we all experience discrimination to a degree.   Anecdotally speaking, I'm starting to notice that white males are being passed over in my field...in favor of women and minorities.  I think is is pretty common as more and more employers, colleges and other organizations become more "diversity" obsessed.  



1.  Got it.

2.  Ditto

3.  The way people look affects others' judgement.  It's just the way it is.  

4.  That's not reverse discrimination.  That's racial stereotyping.  Racial, Ethnic or Religious discrimination would be if you are denied something (anything..a freedom, a job, entrance to an establishment) as a result.  

5.  It doesn't seem that you're willing to place it aside.  When you talk of being discriminated against because people assign certain stereotypes to you (in this case, positive ones such as being good with tech), that's not placing it aside.  I don't know what "tolerance of intolerance" is to you, exactly.  To me, it would include the fact that, say, the UK seems to look the other way as radical Muslims use the country and a fundraising base of operations, all the while demanding that the UK (London, England to be exact) bow to their cultural "sensibilities."  

6.  As much as race is an issue here in the U.S., it seems to me that it is a much bigger problem in the region of the world you're referencing.  We are accused of anti-Muslim policies and racism in general.  But in certain places in the Muslim world, racism (and worse) seems commonplace.   A little off topic here...but sometimes I think that for all our problems, what may save the U.S. is its diversity and blend of cultures.  We still have racism, but overall our culture tolerates people of all different backgrounds exceptionally well.  I assume this can only be a strength.  


But that doesn't mean you're the only one here that experiences racism or religious discrimination.  It doesn't mean one has to be Jewish to understand.  

Very good points. Perhaps I'm not willing to place it aside. But I agree with you in essence. The UK situation and the Muslim world is exactly what I mean about tolerance for intolerance. I believe the Muslim world is exploiting the non-Muslim world. Yes the US's core strength for this century is diversity. Never let go of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

WTF ?!?

Discrimination based on race is racism.
Affirmative action based on race IS RACISM.
Just because it's instituted at the governmental level doesn't change anything.  If race is considered in making a decision or forming opinion, then that's racism.

Bingo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I happen to agree with you.  Many others do not.  

For the Malaysian situation "affirmative action" could be accepted from the 1950s to the early 1990s. Beyond that point, and today, a reasonable person will consider it outright codified, political-religious-socio-economic racism. Do we need to have separate water coolers for Malays and Non Malays for people to then accept this is racism?

Don't forget religious persecution and lack of religious freedom, again, for Malays themselves. Can you imagine being born, and everyone, from local, state to country, telling you, and forcing you, that you can never be anything ~but~ a Muslim? That you will never in your country have the right to eat openly in a restaurant during Ramadhan, even if you don't believe in any Abrahamic religions?

There's that line used in movies about cons never wanting to go back to prison. Now I understand it. It is up to you to decide whether I'm hyping it too much, but, I will fight to my dying breath never to go back and live and work in Malaysia ever again. Never again. Just to visit my parents and so on, nothing more.

There are big changes coming to the world, my friends, and the time is now, to draw a line in the sand, and stand for what you believe in, against the onslaught of human depravation. For the astrologically inclined, the Age of Aquarius is upon us, a transition that will take a few hundred years, which possibly started a hundred years ago, but certainly intensifying soon. Those that cling to the "old ways", I don't think they are "evil", but merely of a previous age and not consciously (though perhaps subconsciously) aware of humanity's current point in history.

Maybe I'm bashing political correctness for the sake of it. Maybe all I'm trying to say, is, I will say what I think I have the right to say, and let the chips fall where they may.

Peace. And Prepare.
Edited by sr2012 - 7/10/12 at 4:07am
post #34 of 49

Are you for Affirmative Action or against it?
 

post #35 of 49
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Are you for Affirmative Action or against it?

Against. Because you can't take a bunch of people purely on the basis of their race and say this or that. If they're poor or uneducated, then help ~all~ people who are poor or uneducated. If a race is discriminated against, then enforce non-discrimination laws, you don't have to force companies to have x minorities, y majority or z women. You can encourage diversity, by say, "gay-friendly" ideas, and educating workers on say, hate talk against gays at the workplace or whatever, but why the heck would a company decide, "oh we need to have x number of gay people". That's just ridiculous.

So, if you are poor, uneducated, no job, then address this directly, not say because they are A race or B gender then this or that.

The Malaysia case is utterly even more screwed up because it is affirmative action for the majority, for the wealthy, and does not have any safety net for the poor and uneducated minority. It's really bad.

Part of my indignation is because while I did not escape war, I did escape depression, discrimination and oppression in Malaysia. But those I left behind... survivor's guilt, perhaps.
Edited by sr2012 - 7/12/12 at 3:19am
post #36 of 49

To me this is stereotyping people of all sorts and it is wrong.I agree with you no one should be judged by their race alone whatever it may be.
 

post #37 of 49
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

To me this is stereotyping people of all sorts and it is wrong.I agree with you no one should be judged by their race alone whatever it may be.

Agreed. As of 2012 this kind of behaviour anywhere in the world is totally just... idiotic. But guess what. It happens in most of the world, still.
post #38 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post


Against. Because you can't take a bunch of people purely on the basis of their race and say this or that. If they're poor or uneducated, then help ~all~ people who are poor or uneducated. If a race is discriminated against, then enforce non-discrimination laws, you don't have to force companies to have x minorities, y majority or z women. You can encourage diversity, by say, "gay-friendly" ideas, and educating workers on say, hate talk against gays at the workplace or whatever, but why the heck would a company decide, "oh we need to have x number of gay people". That's just ridiculous.

So, if you are poor, uneducated, no job, then address this directly, not say because they are A race or B gender then this or that.
 

Not sure that I agree with you.

 

I can see the motivation for an organization wanting to be representative of those that it services. The fact they feel it necessary to resort to quota systems implies that something has gone wrong previously.

 

In an ideal world ones race would be of no consequence but in reality it is a barrier to employment. By way of an example, black graduates are less likely to get a job than white graduates with the same grades. If we were to remove positive discrimination the situation would be far worse.

 

 In my experience those that least want to see positive discrimination are (often but not always) those least likely to benefit from it.


Edited by hungover - 7/13/12 at 11:35am
post #39 of 49
Thread Starter 
But this doesn't solve the issue of why black graduates are less likely to get a job than white graduates. Affirmative action is like two wrongs trying to make a right. You gotta look at why the wrong happened in the first place. What if also there was a group of people, say fat, disabled Asian women that are even less likely than African-Americans to get a job even with the same grades. This would be discriminating ~against~ said fat, disabled Asian women.

For 2012, I think it doesn't make sense to solve discrimination by discrimination itself.

To address the issue above, then you would need to look at why people don't want to hire or are discriminating against blacks and fat, disabled Asian women.

As humans we cannot deny that we perceive and react to race. So let's address this not by denying that natural instinct completely, but by addressing the bad parts of it, not becoming completely and utterly blind to race... That's like forcing everyone to only wear a shirt of a certain colour.

As for societies that service particular minorities or majorities, a quota system makes no sense. Let's say there is a Society For The Promotion For iPhone Loving Gay Asian Transvestites. Personally wherever in the world I feel there should be no reason that such society have a clause that says, we must always employ 80% who are Gay Asian Transvestites that love iPhones. Of course a job requirement can be that you believe in the promotion of said causes and perhaps have regular contact with the target audience, etc.

But you cannot "quota" a workplace. In my view, whether it is done "positively" or negatively this is a fundamental abuse of basic human rights.

Two wrongs don't make a right, in my opinion. I've used somewhat flippant examples but parallels do exist in the real world.
post #40 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

But this doesn't solve the issue of why black graduates are less likely to get a job than white graduates. Affirmative action is like two wrongs trying to make a right. You gotta look at why the wrong happened in the first place. What if also there was a group of people, say fat, disabled Asian women that are even less likely than African-Americans to get a job even with the same grades. This would be discriminating ~against~ said fat, disabled Asian women.
For 2012, I think it doesn't make sense to solve discrimination by discrimination itself.
To address the issue above, then you would need to look at why people don't want to hire or are discriminating against blacks and fat, disabled Asian women.
As humans we cannot deny that we perceive and react to race. So let's address this not by denying that natural instinct completely, but by addressing the bad parts of it, not becoming completely and utterly blind to race... That's like forcing everyone to only wear a shirt of a certain colour.
As for societies that service particular minorities or majorities, a quota system makes no sense. Let's say there is a Society For The Promotion For iPhone Loving Gay Asian Transvestites. Personally wherever in the world I feel there should be no reason that such society have a clause that says, we must always employ 80% who are Gay Asian Transvestites that love iPhones. Of course a job requirement can be that you believe in the promotion of said causes and perhaps have regular contact with the target audience, etc.
But you cannot "quota" a workplace. In my view, whether it is done "positively" or negatively this is a fundamental abuse of basic human rights.
Two wrongs don't make a right, in my opinion. I've used somewhat flippant examples but parallels do exist in the real world.

 I wasn't trying to suggest that positive discrimination is an ideal situation. The under representation of the 2 groups that you used could well be the result of institutionalized racism. In such circumstances merely adopting policies to ban racist language in the workplace will do nothing to remedy the situation. I have encountered more racists in rural areas than urban areas: These are people that have had no negative first hand experiences of the minority groups but who never-the-less succumb to believing the worst of the media stereotypes. Hopefully by increasing the number of black or fat disabled Asian women in the workforce the "racists" will realize that they are not demons and appreciate them as individuals rather than as representatives for the whole of their "race".

 

I start from the position where I believe that the black or fat disabled Asian lady is no more or less valuable as a member of the board than the WASP, by that I mean that in principle they are (potentially) equals. Unfortunately it is in the interests of the those in power that adopt an "us and them" mentality to keep the status quo as it is. I use the example of WASPS because I am a "westerner". I have no doubt that the same kind of bigotry exists in other countries.

 

My biggest issue with positive discrimination is that all too often firms fill the front facing, poorly paid roles with "ethnics" in order to fulfill their quotas. When dealing with local government I am often forced to deal with telephonists who have very poor communication skills (ie language issues). My frustration with dealing with inadequately positioned employees aside, I still believe that positive discrimination is a "stop gap"  necessary evil.

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