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Italy threatens to suspend Apple operations in warranty dispute - Page 2

post #41 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bought_it@AAPL View Post

Try reading the Act.
http://www.healthcare.gov/law/full/
While a penalty is assessed for those people who opt not to purchase coverage, the Act expressly excludes any civil or criminal action to enforce payment of the penalty. No liens, no nothing.
Okay, but once you do not pay your taxes, the IRS jumps in and can do just about whatever they want.
post #42 of 101

Yes, but the law prevents Apple from offering that choice (or any other company for that matter) so the argument is moot. The law there is that the minimum warranty is 2 years. So price that in the regular price and move on. We can debate the utility of the law, but that is another discussion.

post #43 of 101
While the trolls argue about US vs EU, here's an Apple web page titled, "Apple Products and EU Statutory Warranty" and it compares it's warranty to the EU Statutory Warranty

To quote notes on the EU 2 year statutory warranty:

http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/

In most EU member states, consumers may only claim for defects that were present on delivery. There are some exceptions including Czech Republic and Romania. The burden to prove that the defect existed on delivery generally shifts to the consumer after the expiry of a period of 6 months from date of delivery. Examples of countries where the burden of proof does not shift include Czech Republic, Portugal and Romania.

Assuming that to be correct, the Apple Warranty would clearly provide more coverage, and perhaps the Italian consumer agency is pushing Apple to provide more coverage than the EU statutory warranty allows for. As such, Apple's reluctance to buckle under is understandable but Apple is obviously not winning the legal battle here. Unfortunately, Apple's General Counsel (Mr. Bruce Sewell) has routinely proved himself to be a liability to the company.
post #44 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

 

No you're not. The EU is in deep shit. I'm hoping for a total collapse of the EURO soon, it's bound to happen sooner or later. They're living on borrowed time. The EURO is a failed experiment, and those European countries that haven't adopted the idiotic EURO are surely happy today.

What are you on about? The EU states that are not members of the EURO aren't in the habit of gloating over the misfortune of their neighbours (read: their trading partners). If the EURO collapses spontaniously, then the EU will follow, then Europe, then the rest of the world. Get back to playing with your crayons

post #45 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcomeau View Post

Yes, but the law prevents Apple from offering that choice
What choice? No law prohibits Apple from selling AppleCare in Italy/EU.
You need to quote what you are responding to so people can understand your response in context.
post #46 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristophB View Post

 

Again, it's my money and I'd rather maintain the choice.  I may be in the minority but isn't my choice to be protected?

 

Do you object to receiving a one year warranty?  That too is included in the base price.

 

Would you want products to come with  no warranty whatsoever except at an additional price?

post #47 of 101

EU law (Directive 1999/44/EC) states that manufacturers are obliged to provide a two year warranty on all new goods.

 

 

The Directive applies to

·       any defective movable consumer product

·       any seller, that is to say any person who, under a contract, sells consumer goods in the course of their trade, profession or business

·       a producer, meaning the manufacturer of consumer goods, the importation of goods or any other person who purports to be a producer by virtue of their name, brand or other distinctive sign

 

The directive calls for

·       a guarantee of at least 2 years for new goods (or longer if the Member State wishes) where the seller will undertake without extra charge to reimburse the price paid or to replace and/or repair consumer goods if they do not meet the specifications set out in the guarantee statement or relevant advertising.

·       a guarantee of at least one year for used goods (except those sold by a private seller)

 

If you ask an Apple salesman in store they will describe the one year Apple warranty. This is actually not legal.

However on their websites Apple now offers two year warranties across the EU.

 

http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/

 

 

 

 

 

post #48 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Then I remembered that a couple other EU countries/consumer protection agencies have the same complaints that they're starting action on.

You have a link for that?

post #49 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

"The AGCM found that Apple had pushed its paid two-year AppleCare warranty on customers despite acknowledging that EU laws require companies to offer the same protections without charge. Apple complied with the December order and began informing customers through its online storefront of the mandatory two-year warranty."
So exactly how did Apple not comply?

Because they don't offer an automatic two year warranty.

The catch is that the EU laws say that the seller has to warranty the item for two years for DEFECTS PRESENT AT TIME OF PURCHASE. Basically it's a lemon law. Within the first like 60 days the seller must assume the defect was at ToP but after that the buyer has to prove that was the case.

That is not Apple Care. AppleCare doesn't care when the defect happens. So long as it isn't damage like a drop or liquid they will cover it.

This group has likely gotten a complaint from someone that was past Apple's one year 'if it's not damage it's covered' and they couldnt prove it was a time of purchase defect and so they were refused coverage. Groups like this have to be public or they get the bad PR. Thus all the press about them investigating etc. and it's heavy hit fodder Apple so it will be all over everywhere

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

Reply

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

Reply
post #50 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerrySwitched26 View Post

 

Do you object to receiving a one year warranty?  That too is included in the base price.

 

Would you want products to come with  no warranty whatsoever except at an additional price?

Is that one year warranty required by law or by a market place where the producer sees it as the sweet spot?  If the former, yes.  I buy products with a 90 day warranty.  I weigh the risk/cost and the If I want a service plan or extended warranty I buy it.  I almost always decline extended warranties when offered at checkout.  Should those be required by law?  Buy something at Best Buy and they automatically tack it on the bill?

post #51 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

What are you on about? The EU states that are not members of the EURO aren't in the habit of gloating over the misfortune of their neighbours (read: their trading partners). If the EURO collapses spontaniously, then the EU will follow, then Europe, then the rest of the world. Get back to playing with your crayons

I'm not a EU state and I do not have any such reservations about not gloating over the misfortune of others. As for who is right, time will provide us the answer to that question. Bailout after bailout is just delaying the inevitable.

post #52 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

 

That's still shows up as a rectangle for me, with nothing inside of it. I guess I'll take a deeper look at preferences later, though it looks like a new Lion feature, because I don't see any option for Emoji when I quickly checked language & text preferences.


It shows up as a rectangle for me too.  Using Firefox on Windows 7 (at work).

post #53 of 101

Don't see the problem here, Apple like any other company must comply with the local laws in each country. They sell around the world so they must be used to this.

 

Comply with Italian law or don't sell your goods there. Keep getting fined until you do comply. Very simple.

post #54 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post


Because they don't offer an automatic two year warranty.
The catch is that the EU laws say that the seller has to warranty the item for two years for DEFECTS PRESENT AT TIME OF PURCHASE. Basically it's a lemon law. Within the first like 60 days the seller must assume the defect was at ToP but after that the buyer has to prove that was the case.
That is not Apple Care. AppleCare doesn't care when the defect happens. So long as it isn't damage like a drop or liquid they will cover it.
This group has likely gotten a complaint from someone that was past Apple's one year 'if it's not damage it's covered' and they couldnt prove it was a time of purchase defect and so they were refused coverage. Groups like this have to be public or they get the bad PR. Thus all the press about them investigating etc. and it's heavy hit fodder Apple so it will be all over everywhere


Thanks for the clarification.

 

I still don't understand why Apple would knowingly flout EU law after being fined. And, if this is an EU requirement, why hasn't it been an issue elsewhere?

post #55 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post


Thanks for the clarification.

I still don't understand why Apple would knowingly flout EU law after being fined. And, if this is an EU requirement, why hasn't it been an issue elsewhere?

We don't know that they are. No one has quoted a law saying that sellers must tell customers about their legal rights etc when they are making a purchase, we see for ourselves that the info is on the website, etc.

These guys basically dont want Apple selling AppleCare proactively. However it is often the better deal especially with computers because it goes for a year after their precious law does.

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

Reply

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

Reply
post #56 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristophB View Post

 

But I don't want a 2 year warranty.  I replace my phone each year, tablet each year, laptop each year(ish)

 

What about the person who buys your old units? They want the two year warranty and it is not available for sale to them, only you as the initial buyer. Also, you said "year(ish)" on your laptop, so you do want it covered for the 13th, 14th months I bet. Further, if you really replace all these devices every year, you're obviously doing well enough economically that you're the last person to be hurt by a few extra dollars in a pricetag. So stop with the "my wallet first, everything else second" mentality; a 2-year warranty helps almost everyone and doesn't hurt you a bit. So just let it be.

post #57 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Apple 
[" url="/t/151042/italy-threatens-to-suspend-apple-operations-in-warranty-dispute#post_2138618"]
You just gave me a link that is 955 pages long. 1smile.gif

I'm going to pass on reading it, because it doesn't really concern me too much, as I already have coverage. It does seem strange though, that if what you claim is true, that there is no penalty for not paying the penalty, then why should anybody who gets slapped with a penalty bother to pay at all? 

There is an index hyperlinked to each section of the Act. It would take all of five minutes to locate the text in Title IX of the Act.

Here is the plain English version (from Sen. Patrick Leahy's web site):
Quote:
Taxpayers who are required to pay a fine but fail to do so will receive a notice from Internal Revenue Service (IRS). If an individual still neglects to pay the fine, the IRS can attempt to collect the funds by reducing the amount of their tax refund in the future.  Individuals who fail to pay the penalty, however, will not be subject to criminal prosecution. The government cannot file notice of lien or levy on any property for a taxpayer who does not pay the penalty.

The penalty, that goes into effect in 2014, is $95.00/yr per adult and $47.50 per minor not covered.

A massive burden eclipsed only by a devastating medical bill where that uninsured driver hits you, the uninsured walker.
post #58 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

"The AGCM found that Apple had pushed its paid two-year AppleCare warranty on customers despite acknowledging that EU laws require companies to offer the same protections without charge. Apple complied with the December order and began informing customers through its online storefront of the mandatory two-year warranty."
So exactly how did Apple not comply?

They haven't complied in any meaningful way. They have hidden the consumer rights in inconspicuous hyper links.

 

When you start the checkout process for the iphone (on apple.it) and select your model you are then offered AppleCare which states the following

 

 AppleCare Protection Plan

 

Service and support offered by the experts of the iPhone.

Every iPhone comes with a limited warranty of one year to cover the repair costs and up to 90 days for technical support *. AppleCare Protection Plan for iPhone extends your coverage to two years from date of purchase of the iPhone: *

 

 

 

At no point do they make it clear that the consumer actually has a free 2 year warranty, deciding instead to push the very profitable AppleCare. IMO Apple are wilfully continuing to break the law

post #59 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post


These guys basically dont want Apple selling AppleCare proactively. However it is often the better deal especially with computers because it goes for a year after their precious law does.

 

Their "precious" (nice weasel word) law seems completely reasonable. Do you honestly think it is fair for a product to cease functioning only 13 months after it is sold to you? Are you that in defense of crappy manufacturing? And if you reply "Oh, Apple's quality is better than that; I'm not defending crap" then there should be no problem with Apple giving a 2-year warranty. You can't have it both ways. Either you're defending the indefensible or you're defending something that needs no defense whatsoever. Nobody opposing the EU 2-year warranty has a leg to stand on.

post #60 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktappe View Post

 

What about the person who buys your old units? They want the two year warranty and it is not available for sale to them, only you as the initial buyer. Also, you said "year(ish)" on your laptop, so you do want it covered for the 13th, 14th months I bet. Further, if you really replace all these devices every year, you're obviously doing well enough economically that you're the last person to be hurt by a few extra dollars in a pricetag. So stop with the "my wallet first, everything else second" mentality; a 2-year warranty helps almost everyone and doesn't hurt you a bit. So just let it be.

 

I'm not the one telling people how they must spend their money.  Stop telling me how I should spend mine.  Let me make my own choices, take my own risks, take it in the shorts on the 13th, 14th, 15th month.  Stop telling me what my mentality should be.  If a 2-year warranty was in the producer's & consumer's best interest, the MARKET would have determined this.

post #61 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyPaul View Post

Raise the European price and include the two year warranty, problem solved.

Italy is not Europe. 

post #62 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyPaul View Post

Raise the European price and include the two year warranty, problem solved.

Yeah they could do that in Italy and it shouldn't be as much as the separate AppleCare costs as everyone is being charged a premium.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple II 
I'm hoping for a total collapse of the EURO soon, it's bound to happen sooner or later. They're living on borrowed time. The EURO is a failed experiment, and those European countries that haven't adopted the idiotic EURO are surely happy today.

It's not really the Euro (or any common form of currency) itself that's a problem but how it was applied:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/05/the-difference-between-the-us-and-europe-in-1-graph/256857/

The people who suffer for it are not the people who made those decisions:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2143237/Mothers-forced-sell-children--human-toll-Euro-meltdown.html

so we shouldn't hope for it to fail but rather for the people who implemented it to be held accountable and for it to be implemented properly.
post #63 of 101

Italy's beef is that Apple deliberately misled people about the 2 year warranty they were entitled to by law in order to make AppleCare more appealing. The current move is probably meant to show Apple that they mean business and they're not going to let them get away with it. And really, a company of Apple's size and clout should not be using such deceptive sales tactics, anyway, but at this point they're probably also concerned about saving face.

post #64 of 101
Raise the price and include the warranty? Hold on! That almost sounds logical.
post #65 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristophB View Post

Is that one year warranty required by law or by a market place where the producer sees it as the sweet spot?  If the former, yes.  I buy products with a 90 day warranty.  I weigh the risk/cost and the If I want a service plan or extended warranty I buy it.  I almost always decline extended warranties when offered at checkout. 

 

 

 

Fair enough.  Thanks for the honesty.

post #66 of 101
The issue is AppleCare, and presumably Apple's standard 1-year warranty covers more than what is required by law for two years of coverage. There is no easy sound-bite way to explain what each provides you, which makes it anti-Apple.

There might be a few exceptions-- how do you determine if a defective battery was a manufacturing defect or overuse/abuse?
post #67 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattBookAir View Post

This is required by law throughout the EU, as far as I know (certainly in Germany). Surely Apple's products are good enough to offer a 2 year warranty, right? Maybe the US should consider similar consumer protection standards.

Two year warranty is ok for the EU because it is a law. In the US products are not even required to have any warranty. The law states that if a company provides a warranty then there are regulations as to how it is to be written and advertised. The law is intended to promote competition by allowing companies to offer longer warranties as a means of adding value. An unintended consequence is that companies that offer longer warranties are generally viewed by the public as producing inferior products and only offer longer warranties to make their products more attractive. The one exception is those who offer lifetime warranties, although you might distrust advertising on an info-mercial for a a product you have never heard of. A one year warranty is considered normal in the US. Apple sells the extended warranty to people who think they want it not because they believe that Apple products might fail but generally because they think they are likely to somehow break it themselves. Even though Apple's extended warranty does not cover damage they generally are much more likely to replace damaged goods if the consumer purchased an extended warranty.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #68 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Let 'em try.
That's just what the EU needs right now; fewer jobs.

Apple has to comply to the law as any other company selling products in Europe.
Luckily our own laws apply and not those of the U.S.

J.
post #69 of 101

Last time, I checked Bush created deficit was 5,1 trillion USD.

Total deficit : 14 trillion and counting. I admire the US, but not the mountain of debt they piled for themselves,

borrowing their future to China. May I remind you the US is bankrupt since last august ? lol.gif

post #70 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

 

No you're not. The EU is in deep shit. I'm hoping for a total collapse of the EURO soon, it's bound to happen sooner or later. They're living on borrowed time. The EURO is a failed experiment, and those European countries that haven't adopted the idiotic EURO are surely happy today.

This is the best way for the US to shoot themselves in the foot : if Europe collapses, US goes under. Do you think sometimes before yelling ? 

post #71 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Let 'em try.
That's just what the EU needs right now; fewer jobs.

 

In other words, law and principle should bow to expediency and troubled people should knuckle under to whatever corporate overlord offers a few crumbs.

 

No doubt you're both Steinbeck's countrymen as well as one of his countless, clueless "temporarily inconvenienced millionaires."  Remind me, what's the percentage by which your country's debt exceeds its GNP?  I know it's well over a hundred, but having little talent for schadenfreude, I tend to suppress awareness of the actual number.

 

We fear for you.  A people whose only principle is wealth will have neither.

post #72 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktappe View Post

 

Their "precious" (nice weasel word) law seems completely reasonable. Do you honestly think it is fair for a product to cease functioning only 13 months after it is sold to you? Are you that in defense of crappy manufacturing? And if you reply "Oh, Apple's quality is better than that; I'm not defending crap" then there should be no problem with Apple giving a 2-year warranty. You can't have it both ways. Either you're defending the indefensible or you're defending something that needs no defense whatsoever. Nobody opposing the EU 2-year warranty has a leg to stand on.

 

Honestly, no, I don't think it is acceptable for a product to cease functioning 13 months after I purchased it, and I was pretty pissed off when my iPhone 4 did stop working after 13 months (the sleep/wake button stopped working, and started leading to the phone freezing, and then I couldn't reset it until the battery went dead).

 

I was even more pissed off when I realized that it was a relatively common occurrence, at least from what I read on-line.

 

I did however buy another iPhone though, since my personal experience with Apple quality had been good.  They're on their last chance though, if this one has a problem after 13 months, I'll switch manufacturer.


Effectively, the market would produce a solution.  If Apples quality actually is crappy, I'll stop buying their stuff.  So will most people.  I'm from Europe, so believe in more government regulation than most of the Americans I now live amongst, but this is one area where I believe government isn't needed - the market could sort itself out.

post #73 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

They haven't complied in any meaningful way. They have hidden the consumer rights in inconspicuous hyper links.

 

When you start the checkout process for the iphone (on apple.it) and select your model you are then offered AppleCare which states the following

 

 AppleCare Protection Plan

 

Service and support offered by the experts of the iPhone.

Every iPhone comes with a limited warranty of one year to cover the repair costs and up to 90 days for technical support *. AppleCare Protection Plan for iPhone extends your coverage to two years from date of purchase of the iPhone: *

 

 

 

At no point do they make it clear that the consumer actually has a free 2 year warranty, deciding instead to push the very profitable AppleCare. IMO Apple are wilfully continuing to break the law

 

 

Good catch.  I think that this should be adequate to answer to oft-asked question of why Italy is doing this.

post #74 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

 

That is true. Apple could pull out of Italy completely, and it wouldn't make much of a difference.

 

The only practical way to do that would be to pull out of Europe completely, and that would make a difference to them.

 

However, it would make pretty much zero difference to the European economy.  When all is said and done, Apple primarily sell products that are readily available from other vendors.  Those of us who like Apple products would be upset by it I'm sure, but ultimately, it makes little difference whether one uses an iPhone or an Android phone.  If the iPhone were no longer available, I'm sure the Italians would quickly adapt.

post #75 of 101

LMAO.  So many tax law geniuses, and world economic experts posting here today.   

 

I really enjoy the ones from the self-appointed gods & emperors of the world who issue their personal edict and judgement on every topic.   I could run through the list and name all the pubes going off about social issues and evil countries or corporations.   Though art omnipotent !  And probably impotent.

 

Do any of you actually have a paying job?  Some real world experience?  A bank account?  A girlfriend?   Who paid for your computer?

post #76 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by msimpson View Post

I could run through the list and name all the pubes
and I'll just bet you could.
post #77 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


There's a fundamental difference that makes the US unable to collapse.

And that is .....?

See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
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See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
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post #78 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattBookAir View Post

This is required by law throughout the EU, as far as I know (certainly in Germany). Surely Apple's products are good enough to offer a 2 year warranty, right? Maybe the US should consider similar consumer protection standards.

 

They do offer an extended warranty, but not for free.

 

http://www.apple.com/support/products/

 

Besides, the length of a warranty should be something that companies offer in response to competition, not because a government body demands it.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #79 of 101

well, I read all your comment and obviously the post.

I'm Italian and unfortunaly I've to say that the post is not so clear to correctly explain the conflict between AGCM and Apple.

In Italy (and I think in the whole EU) any product is covered by 1 year from the "producer", and another year from the product reseller (only for production issues).

 

The issue is so just referred to Apple Online Store and Apple Retail Store. In this cases AGCM "asked" Apple before selling to clearly explain to consumers/buyers this point and, right after that, Apple included the previously linked page with the Warranty Comparison with Apple Care solutions.

 

Right now, if your Mac broke after 1 year (but within the second one) and if you go to an Apple Store they will start trying to tell you that it's not covered bu if you argue that the AGCM states that it's your right they will repair it for free.

 

This is the problem. The lack of information and the "strange" (if it is) Apple behaviour.

 

 

What AGCM is stating now is that, because Apple didn't change anything referring consumer's information and clarification since the first request, (and in fact Apple Resellers still say that you have just one year warranty, but if you want more you have to pay), they are now just saying that even if you have more money than the entire Country, you are under the law.

post #80 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyPaul View Post

Raise the European price and include the two year warranty, problem solved.

Exactly.

 

TANSTAAFL after all. Would be very salutary for the Euros to learn that.

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