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Bill Gates: There is 'a strong possibility' Apple needs a Surface-like device - Page 5

post #161 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatisgoingon View Post

It's got to have every option that is fully configurable because somebody out there just might want that feature.

True that:

493

They keep on hanging on to the past. Yes yes, backward compatible and all that. I use their software at work, and have a lot of aaaahh moments.
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post #162 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I welcome Microsoft to the tablet world, just as I welcomed them to the smartphone world.
Though what they think anyone would want with a desktop OS on a multitouch device is anyone's guess. They don't seem to have learned from the last decade.


They were in the smartphone world before Apple. I remember working on their smartphones. It was hell.

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

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post #163 of 298
Captain Picard standing on the bridge of the enterprise, a Romulan warbird has Just de-cloaked.
"What's our status Riker?"
Riker hands Picard a MS surface the keyboard flapping about underneath"
Pickard takes the surface and goes to find a desk to set it on. He then tries to take out the flip stand which keeps on flipping back in.
"Oh ffs" Pickard says and throws the machine on the floor."
Worf walks over and steps on the machine, a grin on his face as we hear the thing shatter.
Geordie hands Pickard another surface but this one is running a virus update and will be useless for at least twenty minutes.
Data hands Pickard an iPad and says "here you are Captain, superior technology. "
"Is it Alien?" Pickard asks.
"No just better." replies Data.
post #164 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasparilla View Post

Now all the words from Gates here aside, I think the WinPad stands a chance if Microsoft executes adequately (although with nothing but crashing prototypes that nobody got to play with in hand and two different versions of the WinPad at the starting gate its not looking good from a consumer confusion standpoint).  Seems like they could take share from the little part of the market that Android owns as they are in such a sad state on tablets.  There will be a group of dedicated windows users that will buy it as well (its a big market) and possibly have a WP phone to go with it.  

 

It seems at this point Microsoft can finally see they and their share price will fade away over time if they don't get into the phone and tablet markets which is where the growth (future) is.  Like the game console market, they can spend years and years pouring money down a hole if they think they need to until they finally get it working enough (they made no money on Xbox and didn't start making money on the Xbox 360 for years but do now) - and they have no choice but to do this and pour money down this hole and the WP hole - for years - until they get it right enough (not for domination but for some marketshare) - the alternative is to watch the growth of their main revenue driver, PC's, tail off and eventually start shrinking.

 

Apple has nothing to worry about here and I hope Microsoft can execute this...Google (android tablets) are the ones to be sweating this...

 

I'll chip in though, that I still don't understand why Nokia, that had several great systems, among which a perfectly acceptable Linux alternative to Android, switched to the worst OS available at that time. I liked Nokia. I owned several of their phones and smartphones. They were durable, easy to operate... I expected them to provide what the iPhone has become.

 

So, why? Why, Nokia?

 

Moreover, since Microsoft basically sh**ed them with Windows 8, why can't they get all their remaining resources on one of their systems (Maemo, Symbian Touch... anything but M$), make it shiny, easy to use, easy to develop for, and use their amazing engineering to make something great and revolutionary?

 

If they can't do that, they're going RIM (I mean, they'll die), in my humble opinion. Since I don't trust Samsung to innovate, nor HTC, nor Motorola, and that's most of the market in the Western world (China has several other makers, but I would not dare qualify them innovative or quality-minded)... either Nokia gets their act together, or Apple will just sit on the market for time-everlasting (or at least, for a long time...) and that's never good.

 

I don't see M$ winning in the smartphone market, Android is big but not very innovative... so I guess I'll be buying more iPhones.

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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post #165 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by agramonte View Post

yeah would be nice to have a tablet for actual talented people

 

iPad is for that group that everything they own other people made and everything that has ever inspired them other people have imagined - be nice to have a tablet for the rest of us.

 

iOS has always been the dumbing down of Apple - the device for "joe" - who can produce little with their time - reason why it has so many silly video games 


This will reel the sincere and offended fanboys in like chum to explain why you're wrong.  Nothing gets 'em worked up more than questioning their technical cred.  Well played, sir, well played.

post #166 of 298

Sort of like the Zune

post #167 of 298

I didn't see hi mention that it Apple needed to include CTRL/ALT?DEL in their next IOS 6.0

post #168 of 298
I certainly think that keyboard selling point is the dumbest think I have ever seen, specially that cover keyboard. How is that think supposed to stay in a lap? You can't use that if you don't have a table. Even if you have a lap plate to rest that thing you'll be stuck in its fixed angle. It's a total mess. If I would use a keyboard frecuently with my iPad I could use a Apple Wireless Keyboard with me that is small enough to carry on, or use that Logitech cover or any other option. There are a lot in the market.

The Surface keyboard cover isn't a reason to buy, that's why I think Microsoft is doomed with that device, they don't have nothing to offer besides Office in that thing. The whole presentation was 70% the keyboard and 30% "look at this design". Nothing.
Edited by lvidal - 7/4/12 at 5:34am
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post #169 of 298

Technically the apple TV already has the full fledged Mac OS on it, and yet it is not accessible because it does not make sense. 

 

I seriously think that MS isn't trying to compete with the iPad, they're just trying not to be a netbook.  And if they can sell hardware to make a few extra bucks, why not.  If they were really thinking straight, they would have realized that the zune made absolutely no dent in the market as it was a crappier copycat.  If they can wipe out the netbook market, all the power to them.  As an IT person, I hate "fixing" some poor student's computer because I can't image what kind of garbage is on there.  If MS can make something more palatable for both the target consumer and technical support community, all the power to them. 

post #170 of 298

As SJ said.  The hard keyboard is a thing of the past and no longer needed.

post #171 of 298

Maybe MS should have included a stylus and a CTRL/ALT/DEL key to go along with the keyboard

post #172 of 298
It does include a stylus, or a stylus will be available, as in the presentation they demoed that even there's a magnetic zone aside the Surface to attach the stylus 1biggrin.gif
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post #173 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvidal View Post

I certainly think that keyboard selling point is the dumbest think I have ever seen, specially that cover keyboard. How is that think supposed to stay in a lap? You can't use that if you don't have a table. Even if you have a lap plate to rest that thing you'll be stuck in its fixed angle. It's a total mess. If I would use a keyboard frecuently with my iPad I could use a Apple Wireless Keyboard with me that is small enough to carry on, or use that Logitech cover or any other option. There are a lot in the market.
The Surface keyboard cover isn't a reason to buy, that's why I think Microsoft is doomed with that device, they don't have nothing to offer besides Office in that thing. The whole presentation was 70% the keyboard and 30% "look at this design". Nothing.

Why is it so hard for some people to realize that not everyone has the same needs. For a lot of people, a keyboard on a tablet makes a lot of sense - particularly when it's so easily removable.
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post #174 of 298
I think ms will have surface success if w8 phones win the hearts and minds and, they can back up their tablet/phone ecosystem with a cheap and easily accessible app store.
post #175 of 298

"I still think the iPad is crippled not having a floppy" /BG.

post #176 of 298
Someone needs to say it:

Surface: that's two dumb-ass tablets!


Dictated on my iPad
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post #177 of 298
If wRT stands for "wart" -- what does w8 signify?
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post #178 of 298

It will be interesting to see how well the Surface operates and competes. If Windows 8 and all supported applications perform efficiently on the new device, it will probably be successful. However, this form factor more closely resembles a modified ultra book rather than a tablet. All that being said, A successful Surface will probably cannibalize PC laptop/desktop revenues, as well as a percentage of iOS and Android sales. Key factors such as availability, functionality, reliability, versatility, and price are what ultimately drive consumer preference. High marks will spur more competition and more innovation.

post #179 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmsley View Post

Technically the apple TV already has the full fledged Mac OS on it, and yet it is not accessible because it does not make sense. 

I seriously think that MS isn't trying to compete with the iPad, they're just trying not to be a netbook.  And if they can sell hardware to make a few extra bucks, why not.  If they were really thinking straight, they would have realized that the zune made absolutely no dent in the market as it was a crappier copycat.  If they can wipe out the netbook market, all the power to them.  As an IT person, I hate "fixing" some poor student's computer because I can't image what kind of garbage is on there.  If MS can make something more palatable for both the target consumer and technical support community, all the power to them. 

AppleTV runs iOS -- the current model uses an A5X chip which runs iOS 6 (or iOS 5).
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post #180 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by agramonte View Post

yeah would be nice to have a tablet for actual talented people

iPad is for that group that everything they own other people made and everything that has ever inspired them other people have imagined - be nice to have a tablet for the rest of us.

iOS has always been the dumbing down of Apple - the device for "joe" - who can produce little with their time - reason why it has so many silly video games 

You're right...I wish I could write music on my iPad, use amplifier plug ins for my guitar rig, create literature, etc....oh, wait, I believe I DO have all that...and with no spam or virii ala windows....try again!
post #181 of 298
This new Asymco article details my hypothesis on why MS is so desperate to get a tablet on the market even if it means pissing off their vendors.

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post #182 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Why is it so hard for some people to realize that not everyone has the same needs. For a lot of people, a keyboard on a tablet makes a lot of sense - particularly when it's so easily removable.

It isn't hard for me to imagine that some people really need a physical keyboard. What is hard for me to imagine is that people would prefer a Surface over an iPad for such irrelevant thing when there are a lot of solutions for the iPad out there. If you couldn't use a physical keyboard with the iPad, I could give Microsoft that as a selling point, but that's not the case. Since day one the iPad has been able to use bluetooth keyboards. So, that's why, for me, that keyboard isn't a game changer at all. 

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post #183 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

This new Asymco article details my hypothesis on why MS is so desperate to get a tablet on the market even if it means pissing off their vendors.

Interesting article, thanks for sharing. A prime example of the results of resting on your laurels...and not having a clue about your competition...
post #184 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


...

Question that remains to be answered is, how many people need fully featured computer in a tablet form. Microsoft's own RT vs. Pro tablets sales will be good indicator. If Pro turns to be selling well, then yes - Apple could benefit from having MacBook Pro hardware in tablet format. Airs are nice and portable, but still laptops - not that easy to use while standing, for example, or in both landscape and portrait orientation. Or where freehand input (via touch-screen) is preferable to keyboard and touchpad.

I do not think the Surfaces will be usable in portrait mode because of the aspect ratio of the display. The keyboards are attached in landscape mode. I don't recall seeing any demos using a virtual kb in either portrait or landscape.

Can you envision someone standing, holding a Surface in portrait mode making a FaceTime connection while standing a convenient 22 degrees to one side (which side?) with the detached kb conveniently stuffed under one arm. How convenient is that? Then to add to the agony, flipping the Surface around to show what you see (compensating for the 22 degrees) to the FaceTime contact (while, likely, dropping the kb). I suppose you could flip out the kickstand for use as a handle and/or alignment guide.

Another scenario, you're sitting in coach with the seat in front tilted all the way back for a long (really long, as it turns out) flight. You whip out your Surface Pro to get some "real work" done. Because the kickstand tilts the Surface back, you must move move it towards you to compensate for the seat back in front -- with the "real kb" poking you in the chest. There you sit, with your elbows at your sides and your hands by your chin (like a praying mantis) ready for several hours of productive touch typing... Then the guy in the window seat [pun intended] has to go to the bathroom...

Honestly, a real laptop is more flexible and useful in this real-world environment -- you can tilt the screen. Backward or forward as needed and adjust the distance to the kb.

Finally, I think MS performed a slight-of-hand. By calling the Surface a tablet, they knew we would immediately think of an iPad... And make assumptions that the Surface would deliver the same basic "tablet capabilities". But, the Surface doesn't deliver -- it is a laptop with a touch screen and a detachable kb.

During the preso, they referred to it as a PC!
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post #185 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1) The Surface running Windows RT will only run apps that go through MS's app store.
2) You're being ignorant by not even understanding the basics of the Surface or Windows 8 constraints.
3) You're clearly trolling by saying iOS is not a real OS. MS had decades with their "real" OS on tablets and it got them nowhere. There first attempt post iPad will be with a concept that follows Apple's very successful iPad and iOS lead.

 

For posters like Ewan, a "real OS" or "full OS" contains all the baggage of x86 Windows. They are probably IT guys who don't "Contact your Administrator" because they ARE the Administrator, or a hacker. These guys freak out if they can't get into the BIOS screen and throw every switch. They want a computer that spits out "Keyboard error or no keyboard present. Press F1 to continue or DEL to enter SETUP".

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post #186 of 298
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Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

For posters like Ewan, a "real OS" or "full OS" contains all the baggage of x86 Windows. They are probably IT guys who don't "Contact your Administrator" because they ARE the Administrator, or a hacker. These guys freak out if they can't get into the BIOS screen and throw every switch. They want a computer that spits out "Keyboard error or no keyboard present. Press F1 to continue or DEL to enter SETUP".

So it needs to have Adobe Flash and Real Player, too?


On a more serious note, will the x86 Surface still have a BIOS?

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post #187 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

This new Asymco article details my hypothesis on why MS is so desperate to get a tablet on the market even if it means pissing off their vendors.

Thanks for that link; good article.

Also liked the comment from a poster: JohnDoey:
“Why is [Steve Jobs] doing [the Apple comeback]? He must know he can’t win.” — Bill Gates, 1999."
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post #188 of 298
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Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


And... you can run heavy-duty apps like Final Cut Pro, Office for Mac or Aperture on iPad "upgraded" with keyboard?

 

I think not.

 

Question that remains to be answered is, how many people need fully featured computer in a tablet form. Microsoft's own RT vs. Pro tablets sales will be good indicator. If Pro turns to be selling well, then yes - Apple could benefit from having MacBook Pro hardware in tablet format. Airs are nice and portable, but still laptops - not that easy to use while standing, for example, or in both landscape and portrait orientation. Or where freehand input (via touch-screen) is preferable to keyboard and touchpad.

 

No, I think the question HAS been answered. You just aren't paying attention. The answer is: About as many people who flocked to the Windows Tablet PCs over the last 10 years. Don't say it's because those tablets were just convertible laptops and therefore too heavy (they were), because Samsung has been selling an impressively thin and light Core i5-based Windows 7 tablet (it even runs Windows 8 Consumer Preview quite nicely, I've used it). And it's not vaporware: you can buy that Samsung tablet TODAY and install Windows 8 CP, and it runs all your "heavy duty apps".

 

And are they flying off the shelf?

 

Nope.

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post #189 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

On a more serious note, will the x86 Surface still have a BIOS?

 

PC makers are getting good at hiding the BIOS prompt during boot, but it should be there. I'm sure the first person to load Ubuntu on a Surface will be celebrated on slashdot as a god among geeks.

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post #190 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Another scenario, you're sitting in coach with the seat in front tilted all the way back for a long (really long, as it turns out) flight. You whip out your Surface Pro to get some "real work" done. Because the kickstand tilts the Surface back, you must move move it towards you to compensate for the seat back in front -- with the "real kb" poking you in the chest. There you sit, with your elbows at your sides and your hands by your chin (like a praying mantis) ready for several hours of productive touch typing... Then the guy in the window seat [pun intended] has to go to the bathroom...

  • Excellent points. I thought about the airplane situation as well after seeing that boring demo; it's not gonna fly.
  • Your window seat pun; too funny!
  • I really think this Surface won't Suffice. I don't know how W8 will work on the SurfPro version of their Surface Family (sic), but I did enable Screen Sharing on my Mac and tried to 'operate' it through a free VNC app on my iPad. That was NOT a pleasant exercise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

"no keyboard present. Press F1 to continue".

After all these years; this one still is funny!
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post #191 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

PC makers are getting good at hiding the BIOS prompt during boot, but it should be there. I'm sure the first person to load Ubuntu on a Surface will be celebrated on slashdot as a god among geeks.

So PCs aren't using EFI yet?

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post #192 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamC View Post

So true, I have a bluetooth keyboard which I seldom use because once they are synced the virtual keyboard doesn't work.

 

An iPad is mobile which I use all over the house and when I need to send an email I can't use the virtual keyboard imagine how annoying it is which I believe the Surface buyers will be facing.

 

And Apple did the right thing use the virtual keyboard for light use and when one needs to write a novel get a bluetooth keyboard and how many of us are novel writers.

 

this is much too dismissive. i agree, you probably won't use a keyboard/cover around the house. but i take my iPad around town a lot, and on the road of course. for that you need a cover of some kind anyway to protect it. i use the Logitech keyboard cover (last year's - the new one is nicer). it is really handy. first, just to prop up the iPad at a good hands free viewing angle, while i drink coffee/beer (which i do a lot), eat a sandwich, etc. and second, to type stuff of course. us old schoolers usually prefer an actual keyboard for writing everything - if it's handy. but, yes, you can't do that riding in a car, another place we use the iPad a lot. great for hotel rooms tho.

 

btw, to break the bluetooth link all you have to do is flick the keyboard/cover power switch to Off. like, when you take it off and put it aside at home anyway. i don't think that is really much of a problem to cite ...

post #193 of 298

Bill Gates seems to forget Apple has MacBook Air to fill that gap in much better way than his awful creation ( specially the 11 inch version).

do you know the difference between surface and a netbook? 

 

 

avw0bnbcaaezxv_37050_640.jpg

post #194 of 298
Nice response my friend.....God bless Apple!!.....the world is changed for the better as a result of Steve Jobs and Apple!!!!!
post #195 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

So PCs aren't using EFI yet?

lol, no. Not even Windows 8, if I remember correctly.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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post #196 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


And... you can run heavy-duty apps like Final Cut Pro, Office for Mac or Aperture on iPad "upgraded" with keyboard?

I think not.

Actually, the kb need not (and should not) be the defining element of a "heavy-duty" app.

FWIW, there are CAD and video editing apps running on the iPad (and iPhone)... iMovie, Avid studio...

I suspect we'll see FCP X running on an iPad long before we see an equivalent "heavy-duty" video editor running on a Surface.
Edited by Dick Applebaum - 7/4/12 at 10:23am
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post #197 of 298

MSFT will be $25 long before it hits $35, if ever. I shorted it with a Feb 2013 expiration. lol.gif

post #198 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

  • Excellent points. I thought about the airplane situation as well after seeing that boring demo; it's not gonna fly.
  • Your window seat pun; too funny!
  • I really think this Surface won't Suffice. I don't know how W8 will work on the SurfPro version of their Surface Family (sic), but I did enable Screen Sharing on my Mac and tried to 'operate' it through a free VNC app on my iPad. That was NOT a pleasant exercise.
After all these years; this one still is funny!

"Surface won't Suffice"

You nailed it!
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post #199 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by FranSC View Post

Bill Gates seems to forget Apple has MacBook Air to fill that gap in much better way than his awful creation ( specially the 11 inch version).
do you know the difference between surface and a netbook? 


LL

Ha!

Except the laptop image should have a bidirectional arrow to indicate that the user can reposition the screen to any desired angle!
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post #200 of 298

Bill Gates seems to operate in a closed mental system. The wheels are definitely turning and opinions are coming out but there is no experiential input or real insights into human beings. Given that he famously forbid his family to use Apple products, I seriously doubt he has ever spent any time with an iOS device and has never experienced the freedom from the mind-numbing aspects of traditional computing that iOS offers. He has always expressed bewilderment at the appeal of Apple products; these latest statements are just more of the same.

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