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Bill Gates: There is 'a strong possibility' Apple needs a Surface-like device - Page 6

post #201 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by agramonte View Post

I care less about microsoft - and yes 90% of the people spend their time on web browsers... because 90% of the people make nothing - it is the rest that still to this day make the sites they look at, layout the e-magazines they read - design and build the apps they use. non of it is made on an iPAD or Mickey Mouse iOS

It is nice that that 90% that went no further past crayons are happy with IOS - but for the rest of us who actually do not waste that much time on doing nothing - it would be nice to also get a tablet device from Apple.

Sorry, ten percent isn't a strong argument for making a product just to suit a minority demand. History has shown repeatedly the market for a tablet with a full desktop OS is too small to justify catering. You can throw around all the invectives that you want, you've simply failed to argue a viable business case for the product you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zunx View Post

A 400 to 600 g Mac would be nice. Whatever form factor (clamshell, slider or tablet). The Mac in your pocket. Always. Not for heavy work, but great for Keynote and PowerPoint presentations.

iPhone or iPod Touch with Keynote and PowerPoint can do the job. Or an 11" MacBook Air. Anything smaller and you're really starving the desktop OS of a comfortably usable screen space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eksodos View Post

Microsoft is giving consumers CHOICE. I know that ugly word is mostly foreign to Apple fans.

Microsoft is only about giving choices that involve its own products. Competing products, they'll write into their supplier contracts saying that OEMs may not offer computers running non-MS operating systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eksodos View Post

It's impressive you've already formed these opinions before the product has been reviewed by a single person outside of Microsoft.

They already had plenty of opportunity to allow reviewers use it, but they denied it. They wouldn't let anyone touch the products, much less use them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


And... you can run heavy-duty apps like Final Cut Pro, Office for Mac or Aperture on iPad "upgraded" with keyboard?

I think not.

Why would you run a "heavy duty" app on a Surface Pro? Wouldn't you want a "real" laptop?
post #202 of 298

Bill you refering to this?  

KeyLite™ Ultra Slim Touch Keyboard Folio

 

http://www.kensington.com/kensington/us/us/p/1451/K39527US/keylite-ultra-slim-touch-keyboard-folio.aspx

post #203 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by agramonte View Post

yeah would be nice to have a tablet for actual talented people

iPad is for that group that everything they own other people made and everything that has ever inspired them other people have imagined - be nice to have a tablet for the rest of us.

iOS has always been the dumbing down of Apple - the device for "joe" - who can produce little with their time - reason why it has so many silly video games 

Serious users will always choose a proper desktop or laptop for content creation. For quick and dirty editing or looking at some boring PowerPoint or Excel sheet, the iPad has everything you need. For video and audio many professional, high-end applications are available. The app store is crammed with apps that let you draw and paint stuff.

So, what great new things are you going to create on your Microsoft Surface? You gonna hammer in some code in Visual Studio on that 10" screen?

Another funny thing worth mentioning is that today, a lot -if not the majority- of content creation is not being done on Windows anymore. Sure, all the PowerPoint pilots and MS Word serfs are still on Windows, but that's about it. Almost all the hip and trendy software development action is on OS X these days, and all scientific and industrial development on Unix. The audio and video industry is also still predominantly Mac based. I think the majority of Windows users are office clerks and gamers. Together that's still over 75% of all computer users, but let's not pretend that 'content creation' implies 'Windows'.
Edited by d-range - 7/4/12 at 11:47am
post #204 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


So PCs aren't using EFI yet?

 

I thought some BYOC motherboards had EFI, since Windows 7 64-bit supports it. But most vendor built systems are still using BIOS. My PCs use BIOS.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

And... you can run heavy-duty apps like Final Cut Pro, Office for Mac or Aperture on iPad "upgraded" with keyboard?
I think not.
Actually, the kb need not (and should not) be the defining element of a "heavy-duty" app.
FWIW, there are CAD and video editing apps running on the iPad (and iPhone)... iMovie, Avid studio...
I suspect we'll see FCP X running on an iPad long before we see an equivalent "heavy-duty" video editor running on a Surface.

 

CAD and video editing don't require keyboards to work; both are highly visual and would benefit from large and/or high resolution screens. But don't worry, the trolls will just shift around the meaning of "heavy-duty" to fit whatever their vague argument happens to be at the moment. They'll be back.

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post #205 of 298

Not even close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotty321 View Post

Hilarious. All you have to do is buy the "Logitech Ultrathin Keyboard Cover" for your iPad, and you have the Microsoft Surface.

post #206 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


Ha!
Except the laptop image should have a bidirectional arrow to indicate that the user can reposition the screen to any desired angle!

It's a funny image, but the image forgot the kickstand. That MS tablet's display does not float freely in mid air.

post #207 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by agramonte View Post

yeah would be nice to have a tablet for actual talented people

 

iPad is for that group that everything they own other people made and everything that has ever inspired them other people have imagined - be nice to have a tablet for the rest of us.

 

iOS has always been the dumbing down of Apple - the device for "joe" - who can produce little with their time - reason why it has so many silly video games 

 

You must be a 'joe' or have an IQ below average. The iPad is a great canvas to shape ideas and there are great apps to use it as such.

Creating has little to do with the tools and its more about filling the white space infront of you. To do that you dont need icons, menus or a complex CLI.

post #208 of 298

No Bill, Apple doesn't need or want anything to do with your next failure. Tim Cook already said before that Apple wants nothing to do with a Tablet that tries to do everything like a PC but fails miserably at it.

That's what the surface is and why it won't succeed.

post #209 of 298

From the Keynote:  Here's an example of MicroSoft Hardware Productivity in Action!

 

 

MS Hardware Productivity In Action.png

 

What's wrong with this picture?

 

 

As an aside... In his monolog Ballmer mentioned that in 1980, the year he came to MS, their biggest seller was the "SoftCard" for the Apple ][.

 

Coincidentally, that was the same year and same product that MS used to screw all their Apple dealers... 

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post #210 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhromeror View Post

 

You must be a 'joe' or have an IQ below average. The iPad is a great canvas to shape ideas and there are great apps to use it as such.

Creating has little to do with the tools and its more about filling the white space infront of you. To do that you dont need icons, menus or a complex CLI.

 

Great post!

 

 

There are iPad apps for "idea expression" -- storyboarding, brainstorming, communicating... 

 

And here is one of my favorites:

 

SafariScreenSnapz001.png

 

 

What is it worth to someone who has difficulty speaking to be able to do something as simple as order food, ask directions, seek help or ask "where is the bathroom?".

 

 

And other apps from the same company:

 

 

 

SafariScreenSnapz004.png

SafariScreenSnapz005.png

 

http://www.proloquotogo.com/products

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post #211 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewan View Post

He's clearly referring to the fact that the upcoming Microsoft Surface tablet has a full operating system that is capable of downloading any third party program. You're all being ignorant and bashing the man. Apple will in fact have to put a real operating system in the iPad to compete with the Surface, that's if Windows 8 runs smoothly on it.

 

No, it isn't. The ARM version will only run Metro apps downloaded from the store, and Microsoft has said that you will not be able to run third-party browsers on it. Basically, I can get the same level of functionality by sticking a third party keyboard on an iPad, and also have the added advantage of being able to angle the screen.

 

The system you're talking about is the Intel version of Surface which will run just about any Windows app according to Microsoft. But here's the problem I have with it:

 

According to MS the Intel Surface (no pricing) will be about 13.5mm thin. Stick on the thin keyboard and it is 16.5mm. Impressive (though Microsoft says on their website that the size and weigh of the device may vary due to components and manufacturing. Have they actually built a real one yet?).

 

But the Macbook Air is full blown PC, capable of running Windows, Linux and OSX, and comes with a bigger screen, a decent sized keyboard and is only half a millimetre thicker.

post #212 of 298

Quotations from Chairman Bill:  "The cream rises to the Surface".

 

But, Mister Bill... Often you can say the same thing about a turd!


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 7/4/12 at 1:29pm
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post #213 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz View Post

Basically, I can get the same level of functionality by sticking a third party keyboard on an iPad, and also have the added advantage of being able to angle the screen.

 

 

Not to mention having a far superior keyboard to type on. If I just need to type something short, the iPad screen is good enough for that. And if I plan on writing a book, I'll use Apple's BT keyboard. I don't really see any use at all for that MS keyboard built into the cover.

post #214 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz View Post

No, it isn't. The ARM version will only run Metro apps downloaded from the store, and Microsoft has said that you will not be able to run third-party browsers on it. Basically, I can get the same level of functionality by sticking a third party keyboard on an iPad, and also have the added advantage of being able to angle the screen.

The system you're talking about is the Intel version of Surface which will run just about any Windows app according to Microsoft. But here's the problem I have with it:

According to MS the Intel Surface (no pricing) will be about 13.5mm thin. Stick on the thin keyboard and it is 16.5mm. Impressive (though Microsoft says on their website that the size and weigh of the device may vary due to components and manufacturing. Have they actually built a real one yet?).

But the Macbook Air is full blown PC, capable of running Windows, Linux and OSX, and comes with a bigger screen, a decent sized keyboard and is only half a millimetre thicker.

I believe Surface Pro comes with 13" screen in full HD resolution... so no, you don't get bigger or better screen. Plus, you cannot use Air (or any other Ultra book) in portrait mode. No touchscreen option (yet).

I don't think Surface Pro is better computer than Air (save for the screen), but it has potential to beat the crap out of any Ultra book for tablet-specific usage. Likewise, it is not better tablet for many users - majority, likely - than iPad and likes, but for those who need tablet with PC processing power, or have both tablet and ultra portable laptop and would like to replace both with one device (like me), it can be very interesting. If it turns out to be as good as promised.
post #215 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Quotations from Chairman Bill:  "The cream rises to the Surface".

But, Mister Bill... Often you can say the same thing about a turd!

Please - why vulgarity? Not cool, not fun. Surely better arguments can be found.
post #216 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

I thought some BYOC motherboards had EFI, since Windows 7 64-bit supports it. But most vendor built systems are still using BIOS. My PCs use BIOS.


CAD and video editing don't require keyboards to work; both are highly visual and would benefit from large and/or high resolution screens. But don't worry, the trolls will just shift around the meaning of "heavy-duty" to fit whatever their vague argument happens to be at the moment. They'll be back.

Guys... you are comparing toyish video editing on iPad with heavy-duty pro video editing software like Final Cut Pro. Please, stop.

CAD on tablet? Really? You think that is what CAD is about? Oh, my...

Also... I didn't say KB is required for such software. I said adding keyboard to iPad doesn't make it fully featured PC, if you need desktop software in highly portable form. I know calling someone a troll without bothering to read and comprehend one's comment is considered easy way out around here, but it is still just as lame.
post #217 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Guys... you are comparing toyish video editing on iPad with heavy-duty pro video editing software like Final Cut Pro. Please, stop.

How much longer do you think you can get away with calling the iPad a toy?

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post #218 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


Please - why vulgarity? Not cool, not fun. Surely better arguments can be found.

i knew it would offend some but I felt it was the most succinct way to make the point!

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post #219 of 298

This is ultimately Microsoft's biggest problem. They're too smug. Remember when WP7 came out and there was a funeral for the iPhone?! My god! Where were you when the iPhone died?! I remember it like it was yesterday. 

 

Everyone thinks Apple people are smug elitist jerks, but we don't go around prognosticating about how the products we use are going to destroy anything. Usually we're too busy arguing about why the analysts who do the prognosticating are idiots and that Digitimes and other supply-chain "sources" (term used loosely) spread ridiculous rumors that usually never pan out. A few trolls show up and we argue with them. Usually after day one of most Apple products being sold, they pretty much already did destroy everything. Microsoft puts their weight behind anything and it usually sinks. Sales numbers go through the floor rather than the roof...and we're supposed to sit here and think "wow...they've done it this time...pack it in Apple...it's time to call it a night". 

 

People all over the web have been talking the Surface up as if it already exists. It has leapfrogged Apple. It has done this. It has done that. It hasn't done squat. It doesn't even exist yet and the few tangible demo models that do exist aren't even fully functional. How do I know this? I don't, but why would people not be allowed to type on those amazing keyboards? Why would potential reviewers have the devices yanked from their hands when trying to do something so simple as check the screen resolution? Obviously the screen resolution is hardly amazing. Obviously the keyboards don't work or don't work very well. Obviously this product was rushed not even to market, but just to the announcement phase. Just to get something out there. Anything. People are already saying how they will get 5 when they come out. They don't even know if these things actually will come to market! My god! Microsoft putting out vaporware?! NO! Hey, maybe they will release this thing...maybe the keyboards at the demo didn't work, or the screen resolution was sub-par considering iOS and Android offerings, but if that's what you've got, at least admit things are just in a development phase rather than discuss how amazing the beveled edge is and the kickstand and ignore everything else. 

 

Anyone here who is going to buy this thing...do yourself a favor and just sit back and wait. Watch what happens. If this thing comes out and Bill and Steve are sitting there with big smiles on their faces at the end of the week and sales numbers are through the roof and reviewers are beyond ecstatic about this thing...Consumer Reports says Surface officially kills the iPad in all categories...and that Apple should start putting some money down for a coffin...then plunk your money down for 5 of them. Until then, just sit back and see what happens. Right now...there's nothing going on. Nothing. This thing is NOT doing anything. Speculate and prognosticate all you want...there is nothing going on yet. Nothing real or tangible. Certainly nothing with a usable keyboard. Just wait and see. Ok?

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post #220 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Guys... you are comparing toyish video editing on iPad with heavy-duty pro video editing software like Final Cut Pro. Please, stop.
CAD on tablet? Really? You think that is what CAD is about? Oh, my...
Also... I didn't say KB is required for such software. I said adding keyboard to iPad doesn't make it fully featured PC, if you need desktop software in highly portable form. I know calling someone a troll without bothering to read and comprehend one's comment is considered easy way out around here, but it is still just as lame.


Some of your comments go both ways. Maybe it makes you feel better to constantly repeat the trope of an iPad as a toy, but I'm guessing in reality, it probably gnaws at you that people actually buy them. Microsoft has had tablet computers for 20 years and got no traction, Microsoft was trying to push something onto the market that the market didn't accept. Maybe they'll finally succeed, but there's no point in getting too excited until it does actually get traction.

You object to being called a troll, but you primarily come here to trash Apple products. If you want to avoid being called something, it's best to first not be that thing. If it quacks like a duck...

Besides, you insist on thinking of a Surface Pro as something to use for "heavy duty" software. Please tell me how it makes sense to demand a light-duty UltraBook-class computer is going to work well with a heavy-duty piece of software. Heck, why would you use pro software on a computer with a kick stand?
Edited by JeffDM - 7/4/12 at 8:27pm
post #221 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


I believe Surface Pro comes with 13" screen in full HD resolution... 

 

nope. MS announced only one model with a 10.6-inch display, which has only 2/3 as much screen area as a 13" small laptop screen. no one is going to try to work in CAD on any screen that small. ask any architect. that's why most opt for 15" screen laptops when in the field, which have twice the screen area of a 10.6" display. and they plug those into 27" monitors when at their desk for "real work." and while the Surface can be connected to a monitor via its MiniDisplay Port, "full HD" is not good enough to run a 27" monitor at its a typical 2560x1440 maximum resolution, which designers need too for "real work." which is why many of them will be buying the new "retina" MacBook Pros that exceed even that spec (so they'll also buy a new Thunderbolt Display to match it).


Edited by Alfiejr - 7/4/12 at 9:05pm
post #222 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


Some of your comments go both ways. Maybe it makes you feel better to constantly repeat the trope of an iPad as a toy, but I'm guessing in reality, it probably gnaws at you that people actually buy them. Microsoft has had tablet computers for 20 years and got no traction, Microsoft was trying to push something onto the market that the market didn't accept. Maybe they'll finally succeed, but there's no point in getting too excited until it does actually get traction.
You object to being called a troll, but you primarily come here to trash Apple products. If you want to avoid being called something, it's best to first not be that thing. If it quacks like a duck...
Besides, you insist on thinking of a Surface Pro as something to use for "heavy duty" software. Please tell me how it makes sense to demand a light-duty UltraBook-class computer is going to work well with a heavy-duty piece of software. Heck, why would you use pro software on a computer with a kick stand?

 

it's not trolling, it's snobbery.

post #223 of 298
Quote:

Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

 

CAD and video editing don't require keyboards to work; both are highly visual and would benefit from large and/or high resolution screens.

Just wondering, have you used CAD software before?.

the idea of using a touchscreen to create content in say AutoCAD or similar but 3D animation software like Maya, just the idea is hell on earth to me, Im not kidding, you are touching on a subject that is much more complicated then just being visual, just the menu system & controls are advanced enough that getting a new GUI would mean going back to school & learning the interface....Not good!.

post #224 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhromeror View Post

You must be a 'joe' or have an IQ below average.

Single-digit, for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kung Fu Guy View Post


That looks terrible!

373

This looks better:

333
Quote:
Originally Posted by eksodos View Post

Microsoft is giving consumers CHOICE. I know that ugly word is mostly foreign to Apple fans.

That is NOT what consumers want. Why do you think Apple became such a large company? They take away choice, they don't ask what people want, instead they figure out what people need. And then create, perfect and release said product. That is what Apple is about. See this clip from 1980 on YouTube to get a sense on why they do what they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by apersona View Post

Bill Gates seems to operate in a closed mental system. The wheels are definitely turning and opinions are coming out but there is no experiential input or real insights into human beings. Given that he famously forbid his family to use Apple products, I seriously doubt he has ever spent any time with an iOS device and has never experienced the freedom from the mind-numbing aspects of traditional computing that iOS offers. He has always expressed bewilderment at the appeal of Apple products; these latest statements are just more of the same.

The CEO of the largest telco over here got an iPhone in 2008 to try out. He used it for an entire week but didn't 'understand' it, ie he didn't think people would want one. Then their competitor got the exclusive deal and people flocked so they could get the iPhone: Bill lost his monopoly on stupidness.
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post #225 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zozman View Post

Just wondering, have you used CAD software before?.

the idea of using a touchscreen to create content in say AutoCAD or similar but 3D animation software like Maya, just the idea is hell on earth to me, Im not kidding, you are touching on a subject that is much more complicated then just being visual, just the menu system & controls are advanced enough that getting a new GUI would mean going back to school & learning the interface....Not good!.

 

I'm pretty sure if you handed a Surface Pro with AutoCAD installed on it to a CAD expert with the idea that he would use it to do more than make the most minor tweaks to a pre-existing CAD document, he/she would slap you silly with the 'Surface'.  Same with Avid, or any other 'real' content creation software.  The screen is too small, the keyboard is ridiculous, and the hardware is woefully underpowered.

post #226 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


History has shown repeatedly the market for a tablet with a full desktop OS is too small to justify catering.
Microsoft is only about giving choices that involve its own products. Competing products, they'll write into their supplier contracts saying that OEMs may not offer computers running non-MS operating systems.

Would that be the same history that showed that people didn't want large phones that allowed them to access the internet, or that people didn't want to use touch screen devices that lacked a leyboard? Surely history frequently demonstrates that people don't really know what they want until someone influential tells them what they want. 5 years ago who would have predicted that grown adults would be walking around with rubber bands around their wrists proclaiming their support for this charity or that organisation?

 

Not sure that I understand the MicroSoft statement. How can any firm offer you chioces outside their own sector? With regard to the OEM exclusivity, I doubt very much that MS would even attempt to do that. They are already one of the most regulated tech firms in the world. Indeed one might argue that the recent success of iOS means that MS should be the subject of fewer antitrust cases from now on. Is it really fair that the best selling desktop OS has to offer alternative browsers whereas the best selling tablet OS doesn't?

post #227 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post


That is NOT what consumers want. Why do you think Apple became such a large company? They take away choice, they don't ask what people want, instead they figure out what people need. And then create, perfect and release said product. That is what Apple is about. See this clip from 1980 on YouTube to get a sense on why they do what they do.
The CEO of the largest telco over here got an iPhone in 2008 to try out. He used it for an entire week but didn't 'understand' it, ie he didn't think people would want one. Then their competitor got the exclusive deal and people flocked so they could get the iPhone: Bill lost his monopoly on stupidness.

 

Please talk for yourself. This consumer wants choice. This consumer might choose Apple tablet/laptop/phone if he finds out it works best for his needs, but this consumer still want choice to be able to choose from.

 

There is no universal recepie. While it does look like Apple's limited choice works for number of consumers today, keep in mind that consumers did want choice when it comes to PCs, which is why wide choice of DOS/Windows OEMs beat the crap out of narrow/no choice of earlier Macs, Amigas, Atari STs.

 

Part of Apple's success is not only in nearing choice (or least in that), but managing to elevate themselves above all other manufacturers; when you manage to be perceived and accepted as different league, then lack of choice on your level doesn't compare with abundance of choice on levels below.

 

I'm pretty sure Zonta or Ferrari have less models to choose from than, say, Fiat... but even if they had only one model at the time, they'd still be dream cars and wanted by many.

 

That being said, Ferrari are "easy" sells. They are surrounded by myth, passion, prestige, design, but also uncompromising performance that players in lower league simply cannot match. Ferrari has engines, gearboxes, suspensions... untouchable by ordinaries. But Apple... they have same Intel CPUs, nVidia graphics, Seagate HDDs. Apple has achieved comparable status in IT world but without actual performance edge - design is there, feel of exclusivity and better value... but for most of their items, performance is on par with others, frequently below. And that is real "secret" of Apple's success. And real genius of late SJ.

post #228 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


Guys... you are comparing toyish video editing on iPad with heavy-duty pro video editing software like Final Cut Pro. Please, stop.
 

 

I don't know why you mention running "heavy-duty pro video editing software" on the iPad. Do you think the Surface is going to have a hope in hell in of cutting HD footage on a Windows-based pro-NLE? If one ignores the minimum hardware requirements for such an NLE, it may 'technically' be able to install the software, but it won't be usable. On the other hand, with iMovie for iPhone and iPad, we know it can edit the HD footage from an iPhone 4 and 4S and has been used to produce news pieces and tvc's for broadcast.

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post #229 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


Some of your comments go both ways. Maybe it makes you feel better to constantly repeat the trope of an iPad as a toy, but I'm guessing in reality, it probably gnaws at you that people actually buy them. Microsoft has had tablet computers for 20 years and got no traction, Microsoft was trying to push something onto the market that the market didn't accept. Maybe they'll finally succeed, but there's no point in getting too excited until it does actually get traction.
You object to being called a troll, but you primarily come here to trash Apple products. If you want to avoid being called something, it's best to first not be that thing. If it quacks like a duck...
Besides, you insist on thinking of a Surface Pro as something to use for "heavy duty" software. Please tell me how it makes sense to demand a light-duty UltraBook-class computer is going to work well with a heavy-duty piece of software. Heck, why would you use pro software on a computer with a kick stand?

 

No, it doesn't gnaw at me at all. I got iPad with me for almost 2 months, before I took it as gift to my mum who is overseas - reason why it was purchased in a first place, but I got it before so I can give it a spin.

 

Nice device. Liked it a lot. Used it a lot while I had it. But it couldn't replace laptop for me, and I didn't like idea carrying around laptop and tablet when I travel.

 

But then, I don't need laptop much either, as I have decent desktop at home. So I figured out, a tablet that can do laptop's job when I am away from my desktop, and also can serve as lite consumption device when I am home, would be ideal for me. Because I do drag DSLR camera with me and shoot RAW, thus I want to have Lightroom or Photoshop handy. I'm not going to completely process my photos on such device, but possibility to sort images while memories are fresh, and do some basic processing during some rainy vacation day is atractive proposition for me. But I also like to be able to use device in portrait mode for books or comics, among other things - something even slimiest Air/Ultrabooks are not good at.

 

I also find it very useful to be able to use Outlook with CRM and other plugins, Connect Wise application - there is lite version for both iOS and Android, but heavily limited - and some others for my work. IT jobs in general are becoming more dynamic with technology progress, and we find ourselves working on occassion from home, or even from overseas. I cannot do that on iPad or Android tablet. Not yet, at least.

 

"Heavy Duty" software was poorly chosen term, but I'm pretty sure I did say "desktop software" as well. Still, I don't think it is completely wrong to call software like FCP or Lightroom or Photoshop "Heavy Duty" or "Heavyweight", versus much lighter iPad/Android counterparts.

 

I don't think I'm bashing Apple's product. I have my opinion on them. Sometimes it is good, sometimes it isn't. I'm often stating that it is my personal opinion, and I'm not trying to sell it as universal truth. I'm also often saying that different people have different mileage, and what works for me does not work for everyone else - and vice verse. I'm not Apple fan, but I don't hate them either. Even if I don't agree with some of their moves. Nor any other brand. Back in September 2009, I made my wife buy 3Gs and dump her Treo, then purchased one myself a month later. 32GB models, no plan, both were around US$1000 each, here in NZ. Nothing else was even remotely close at the time, and we are both still using them. And my mum is so getting new iPad next year, she enjoys this one that much. But... for my needs, iPad with keyboard is not the same as Intel based Surface, or any other Intel tablet that will emerge. I'm not pretending to be that smart (or stupid) enough to claim I know what everyone wants and needs. I always talk about me.

 

Microsoft didn't succeed in their previous endevours because they were half-realised, poor attempts. OS was not optimised for touch - in fact, it was the oposite. Hardware was not capable enough, or had poor battery life and was running uncomfortably hot. But idea - concept - was fine for me. Surface has OS that seems to be well designed for touch usage, and technology has reached level where good performance, good battery life, controlled heat and small form factor can be achieved. This is where - for me - good tablet with desktop functionality becomes possible.

 

I'm not even saying it will succeed, or that I will actually buy it. All I'm saying is, I'm finding this concept interesting and intriguing. I am also saying iPad with keyboard is still not a PC. Not for my needs. If I'm troll for that, then hey - I guess I actually want to be one.

post #230 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post

 

I don't know why you mention running "heavy-duty pro video editing software" on the iPad. Do you think the Surface is going to have a hope in hell in of cutting HD footage on a Windows-based pro-NLE? If one ignores the minimum hardware requirements for such an NLE, it may 'technically' be able to install the software, but it won't be usable. On the other hand, with iMovie for iPhone and iPad, we know it can edit the HD footage from an iPhone 4 and 4S and has been used to produce news pieces and tvc's for broadcast.

 ???

The Surface will  meet the requirements for Edius and Premiere.

post #231 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post

 

I don't know why you mention running "heavy-duty pro video editing software" on the iPad. Do you think the Surface is going to have a hope in hell in of cutting HD footage on a Windows-based pro-NLE? If one ignores the minimum hardware requirements for such an NLE, it may 'technically' be able to install the software, but it won't be usable. On the other hand, with iMovie for iPhone and iPad, we know it can edit the HD footage from an iPhone 4 and 4S and has been used to produce news pieces and tvc's for broadcast.


 Did I really say that? Original poster said Apple already have Surface - just add keyboard to iPad. And I said NO, because even with keyboard attached, you still cannot run desktop software on it. I didn't say that physical keyboard is required for photo/video editing software (which someone tried to put in my mouth along the way), and FCP, Aperture, Photoshop... were only mentioned as example. Full size MS Office would be another example. Many others.

 

I'm not even saying that everyone suddenly need desktop options on tablet. I'm saying Surface is a bit different. While Android tablets are trying to repeat iPad's formula, Surface (at least Pro model) is trying to create new market segment, sitting between SOC tablets and laptop/desktop computers. iPad did the same, targeting sweet spot between smartphones/iPods and light notebooks/netbooks. iPad succeeded. Surface might end up complete flop. Or it might succeed and even take part of iPad's cake, just as iPad is taking parts of Netbooks/Ultrabooks cake, even if it is not product in the same category. Because obviously, categories are overlapping to some degree.

 

Re video/photo editing - I don't shoot my video or photo on smartphone. I use raw format with DSLR camera, and I also have handy dedicated video camera... so editing on iDevice would be a challenge, if possible at all. However, I think that transferring photos/videos to Surface-like device through USB port, doing some light editing (or at least reviewing) and copying to external USB HDD is much easier to achieve - in my usage scenarios.

 

Please see my reply to JeffDM.

post #232 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

 

it's not trolling, it's snobbery.


Is it really? Someone might say insisting on beautifully crafted slim aluminium unibody laptop that will mostly be used for Facebook, web, email... is also snobbery.

 

I disagree.

post #233 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


How much longer do you think you can get away with calling the iPad a toy?

 

Are you really saying that video editing on iPad can stand against FCP-class software..?

post #234 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

 

nope. MS announced only one model with a 10.6-inch display, which has only 2/3 as much screen area as a 13" small laptop screen. no one is going to try to work in CAD on any screen that small. ask any architect. that's why most opt for 15" screen laptops when in the field, which have twice the screen area of a 10.6" display. and they plug those into 27" monitors when at their desk for "real work." and while the Surface can be connected to a monitor via its MiniDisplay Port, "full HD" is not good enough to run a 27" monitor at its a typical 2560x1440 maximum resolution, which designers need too for "real work." which is why many of them will be buying the new "retina" MacBook Pros that exceed even that spec (so they'll also buy a new Thunderbolt Display to match it).


I humbly stand corrected regarding screen size.

 

I do feel that 1920x... is still decent resolution, even for output to 22 - 24" screen.

post #235 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

 ???

The Surface will  meet the requirements for Edius and Premiere.

 

"meet the requirements" is very different to being usable.

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post #236 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

i knew it would offend some but I felt it was the most succinct way to make the point!

 

I'm not offended. I honestly think arguments make much better point than vulgarity. Anyway...

post #237 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


Re video/photo editing - I don't shoot my video or photo on smartphone. I use raw format with DSLR camera, and I also have handy dedicated video camera... so editing on iDevice would be a challenge, if possible at all. However, I think that transferring photos/videos to Surface-like device through USB port, doing some light editing (or at least reviewing) and copying to external USB HDD is much easier to achieve - in my usage scenarios.

 

 

You can currently use an iPad for cutting DSLR footage in iMovie and reviewing/light editing of raw images in iPhoto and other image processing apps. Running a full-blown NLE on the Surface, good luck with that.

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post #238 of 298

Nikon - Here's the deal. We don't know what we can do with Surface RT or Surface Pro. They don't exist yet. If you read my post earlier, it said to wait and see. Nothing has really been released about these two devices and anything that has...maybe subject to change. When it comes to Microsoft...don't let them fool you into becoming a hype machine for their crap that has only seen limited demo time and exposure. Not only that, but nobody has been allowed to do much beyond marvel at the painstakingly sculpted bevel, the over-engineered kickstand and the fact that full Windows can run on the Pro. Guess what? Full Windows is likely going to be the reason nobody wants the Pro. The RT may sell. Full Windows on anything other than a laptop/netbook or desktop PC doesn't sell very well. Why? It's not a viable mobile solution. On the other hand, people (even some professionals) are doing content creation on iPads and whether you think its amazing or not, is irrelevant. People are doing it. I do quite a bit of creating on mine and I'm a graphic designer. Not only that, but as iOS gets more and more powerful, the apps we use now that do these things will also get more powerful...more "heavy-duty". People are not doing anything on Surface tablets. Yet. End of story. Move on. Tell us how amazing and incredible editing and creating on a Surface is once you have one in your hands. 

 

Its funny that the very same people who act like this thing has already arrived are also the same people who tell critics that they can't say much bad about the devices yet cause they don't exist. See the problem with that? 

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post #239 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

Would that be the same history that showed that people didn't want large phones that allowed them to access the internet

What are you referring to? We did have conventional wisdom that the market requires a physical keyboard to be a player, but that's been disproven.

Quote:
or that people didn't want to use touch screen devices that lacked a leyboard?

Who said that? Besides, most, if not all, the Windows Tablets before Surface had keyboards.

Quote:
Surely history frequently demonstrates that people don't really know what they want until someone influential tells them what they want.

Are you saying Bill Gates isn't influential?

Quote:
5 years ago who would have predicted that grown adults would be walking around with rubber bands around their wrists proclaiming their support for this charity or that organisation?

Rubber wrist bands are over a decade old.

Besides, an argument about a lack of market history for an idea is different from an argument about a history of a lack of demand for said idea. To restate it, there's a difference between trying an idea in the market and failing several times over 20 years, and trying to market something truly different that has no previous history. A tablet with a full-blown desktop operating system has been tried several times, notably with Windows 3.x Pen Editions and Windows XP Tablet Edition, which was very heavily marketed at that. What makes Surface special that will cause it to escape that fate?

Quote:
Not sure that I understand the MicroSoft statement. How can any firm offer you chioces outside their own sector? With regard to the OEM exclusivity, I doubt very much that MS would even attempt to do that. They are already one of the most regulated tech firms in the world. Indeed one might argue that the recent success of iOS means that MS should be the subject of fewer antitrust cases from now on. Is it really fair that the best selling desktop OS has to offer alternative browsers whereas the best selling tablet OS doesn't?

You misunderstand. Microsoft tried to deny OEMs the ability to sell Linux computers, in other words, they're Microsoft-only or they don't sell anything with Microsoft on it. http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f0000/0046.htm

The tech industry isn't very regulated at all. Microsoft did have DoJ oversight because of judgements regarding the above case, but that's expired now. The EU has some restrictions on Microsoft, but largely related to web browsers.
Edited by JeffDM - 7/5/12 at 9:58am
post #240 of 298

'Heavy-duty' (desktop) software + Intel x86 CPU + ultra-thin form = low battery life. Surely?

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Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
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