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'iPad mini' predicted to use same display tech as Apple's iPhone 3GS - Page 2

post #41 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher126 View Post

That was my first thought, too.

 

I don't see a retina display for the 7" ipad at intro or the new iMac just yet. But certainly in the future. 

Well, the retina display would certainly separate the Apple 7" iPad from all the also-rans. A justification for a price difference too.

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post #42 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher126 View Post

Somebody said it before me, women are going to "dig" on the iPad 7"

 

And their husbands/boyfriends are going to be buying them for them in droves because of the lower price!

 

You heard it here first...errrr, I mean second! :)

Yeah, I see it more as a women's thing too, and for semi-men who use man-purses.

 

But you're right, men will love it, because their women will be happy with the smaller device, and the men will save money too.

post #43 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe98 View Post

 

I guess it might be useful to have a second iPad while the primary one is recharging...

I was thinking more of a scenario where the large one is used mostly at home and the smaller one is useful for using when going outside or on the subway, etc.

post #44 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

Well, the retina display would certainly separate the Apple 7" iPad from all the also-rans. A justification for a price difference too.

Good point! :) Apple is all about being on the leading edge.

post #45 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe98 View Post

 

The iPad 2 isn't the recent design of the iPad, the iPad 3 is. As for your speculation of the iMac... I think that'll be an interesting one to watch for. I think it could go either way. Many here, including you, were rather incredulous a RMBP would be possible, yet it appeared despite the lack of evidence it was possible to manufacture the screens for them, nor was there any evidence the GPUs could handle the needed resolutions. Thoseare certainly legitimate concerns. Be that as it may, for my part, I think the fact there was no bump to the iMacs when they bumped the Mac Pros and MBA and cMBPs suggests something is up. However, given the reports of lag on the RMBP (which isn't a problem on my particular unit), I could see Apple waiting for Haswell to release a Retina iMac.

My bets are 90% chance that iMac and iPad-mini are not retina. Retina displays are simply too expensive and too difficult to make to be the default screen resolution, and just as important, the hardware necessary to drive that many pixels is also too expensive and power-hungry. The engineering and manufacturing of displays and GPUs will have to improve; the time is not now and not this year. 


Edited by waldobushman - 7/4/12 at 3:50pm
post #46 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Yeah, I see it more as a women's thing too, and for semi-men who use man-purses.

 

But you're right, men will love it, because their women will be happy with the smaller device, and the men will save money too.

Yep, don't give her a "dozen roses" all at once! Give her one rose a week for 12 weeks to minimize the expense and maximize the effect! I don't remember where I learned that! Probably from some cheap bastard! :)

post #47 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Apple may ensure availability of 7.85-inch displays for a new, smaller iPad by using the same display technology already found on the iPhone 3GS, according to one new prediction.

Apple only once downgraded a product line from IPS to TN and found it wasn't such a great idea. It would prevent people flocking to the lower model while covering the budget market but I think it would degrade the experience too much. If Android tablets can ship in that size with IPS/PLS/OLED, the iPad Mini can too.

This iPad Mini rumour, like the TV, has also been swirling around for a while now:

http://www.macrumors.com/2010/08/17/7-inch-ipad-to-launch-by-christmas/

They need to start putting use-by dates on them. Let's say if it doesn't happen at the 2013 refresh, maybe it's time to let go of the idea.
post #48 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

My bets are 90% chance that iMac and iPad-mini are not retina. Retina displays are simply too expensive and too difficult to make to be the default screen resolution, and just as important, the hardware necessary to drive that many pixels is also too expensive and power-hungry. The engineering and manufacturing of displays and GPUs will have to improve; the time is not now and not this year. 

For the iPad Mini, there is another very good reason not to make it retina - it would require developers to add another resolution to the mix.

If they use the same resolution as the iPhone, most existing iPhone apps will work, but with larger buttons and features. It's not ideal, but certainly workable.
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post #49 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Apple will do retina displays when they're good and ready.

 

Apple will do retina displays when the cost of them falls.

 

It's all about the cost of materials. Apple is able to put a retina display in the new MBP because it commands a premium price as their flagship laptop.

 

They can put retina displays in the iPhone and iPad because they are able to buy the components in massive quantities at a significant discount.

 

When the cost of the retina displays fall as the manufacturing yield rates rise and the manufacturing volumes increase I fully expect to see retina displays in all of Apples' products over the coming years.

 

You also have to factor in the product differentiation amongst Apples' product lines. The iPhone is their flagship product so it has a better screen than the iPod. The MBP is their flagship laptop so it gets a better screen than the MBA. Gradually as other factors come into play and the cost of materials fall the retina displays become less of a differentiating factor.

post #50 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I hope people finally understand where the 7.85" screen size comes from.

Exactly! I did this calculation a long time ago:

1024 squared + 768 squared = 1280 squared. (1280 relative pixels diagonal on 1024x768)

1280 pixels / 7.85 inches = 163 pixels per inch.

(The iPhone 3GS has the same 163 pixels per inch.)
post #51 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post


I don't. Although Gruber is usually reliable, he might be wrong this time.

If you do the math, using the same "sheets" from iPhone 3GS (480 x 360, 3.5") will give you a 7.47" screen that has a resolution of 1024 x 768. I don't see 7.85" coming out of that analysis. Am I wrong? Or is Gruber wrong?

3GS is 163 ppi. At XGA res it nets you a 6.28 x 4.71 with a 7.85" diagonal screen.

I guess I was too slow, gatortpk beat me.
post #52 of 84

Would seem very, very un-Apple-like to build something using a technology that they've themselves superseded. Why not cut screens from the same sheets as the iPhone 4, vice 3GS? 

post #53 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by gatortpk View Post


Exactly! I did this calculation a long time ago:
1024 squared + 768 squared = 1280 squared. (1280 relative pixels diagonal on 1024x768)
1280 pixels / 7.85 inches = 163 pixels per inch.
(The iPhone 3GS has the same 163 pixels per inch.)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


3GS is 163 ppi. At XGA res it nets you a 6.28 x 4.71 with a 7.85" diagonal screen.
I guess I was too slow, gatortpk beat me.

 

You guys are right. Thx.

post #54 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by macinthe408 View Post

Would seem very, very un-Apple-like to build something using a technology that they've themselves superseded. Why not cut screens from the same sheets as the iPhone 4, vice 3GS? 

 

Because they want to maintain the 1028 x 768 form factor for apps compatibility. At the resolution of the iPhone 4 screen, that would make for a screen only a bit larger than the iPhone.

post #55 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post


I don't. Although Gruber is usually reliable, he might be wrong this time.

If you do the math, using the same "sheets" from iPhone 3GS (480 x 360, 3.5") will give you a 7.47" screen that has a resolution of 1024 x 768. I don't see 7.85" coming out of that analysis. Am I wrong? Or is Gruber wrong?

How did you do the math? The result is 7.85" on the diagonal. Gruber links to an old post that does it. This was first done before the iPad launched so it doesn't mean it will happen but it does make sense from the point of using the display tech they have long since paid for to help reduce costs.

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post #56 of 84
The obvious reason to have a non retina screen on an iPad mini, if such a creature ever exists, is to have something to add to the iPad mini 2 or 3.
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post #57 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


How did you do the math? The result is 7.85" on the diagonal. Gruber links to an old post that does it. This was first done before the iPad launched so it doesn't mean it will happen but it does make sense from the point of using the display tech they have long since paid for to help reduce costs.


I just made a stupid mistake.


Edited by ankleskater - 7/4/12 at 6:06pm
post #58 of 84

I think the reason for 7.8" is for a 260 dpi screen at 1024 x 768.  If Apple could figure out how to make it for under $120 (retail for $199), it will kill the Android tablet market.  

 

Also the 7.8 inch would be perfect as personal organizer, portable game console, and a color e-reader.

post #59 of 84
Same display tech as the 3GS? Does that mean it won't get IPS? Or it's just a completely different process in the manufacturing of a display?

Because even the Nexus 7 will have IPS.
post #60 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by yvvv View Post

Same display tech as the 3GS? Does that mean it won't get IPS? Or it's just a completely different process in the manufacturing of a display?
Because even the Nexus 7 will have IPS.

 

That's a good point, and I don't really believe this rumor to begin with. 

 

TN is garbage compared to IPS screens. It wouldn't be like Apple to release a 7.85" tablet that has a crap TN screen. It doesn't need to be retina, but at least use an IPS screen.

post #61 of 84

On second thought, Apple does use a TN screen on the iPod Touch, so who knows, maybe a cheaper, smaller iPad would use one?

 

But, that would be a huge mistake though, IMO, and I don't think that Apple is that stupid.

post #62 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

On second thought, Apple does use a TN screen on the iPod Touch, so who knows, maybe a cheaper, smaller iPad would use one?

 

But, that would be a huge mistake though, IMO, and I don't think that Apple is that stupid.


No, Apple is not stupid. But they are not prepared to lose money (or not make money) on any product, unlike Google, Amazon or Microsoft.  Also, the decision on the display screen was made before the specs of the Nexus 7 came out.  Is it too late for them to change?

post #63 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post


No, Apple is not stupid. But they are not prepared to lose money (or not make money) on any product, unlike Google, Amazon or Microsoft.  Also, the decision on the display screen was made before the specs of the Nexus 7 came out.  Is it too late for them to change?

 

Regardless of the Nexus 7 or not, Apple shouldn't base their product design decisions around what other people do or don't do. Apple should just try and build good devices. However, any tablet with a TN screen is worse than garbage, and I would be the first person to advise people not to get one, including Apple's 7.85" tablet, if it had such a screen. 

 

There would be no reason at all to buy the smaller iPad, because it would be so much inferior compared to the existing iPads.

 

Steve Jobs said that Apple doesn't ship junk, but a 7.85" TN tablet qualifies as junk in my book.

post #64 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe98 View Post

What does post-retina mean? I honestly don't follow you.
You claim that every single device going forward will be retina. That's obviously false, as Apple has released devices since the first retina display that weren't retina. If non-retina is inferior, then the iMac, MacBook Air, 13" and 15" MacBook Pro, and Thunderbolt Display are inferior.

Though to be fair, when the iPad 2 came out Retina technology was in it's infancy still. They literally hadn't figured out a way double the pixel density on a 9.7 inch screen ( or at least a way to power it given the iPad form factor restraints). The challenge it seems is creating retina displays for larger screen sizes.

 

Since they have done retina at 3.5 inches and they have also done retina at 9.7 inches it is reasoable to believe that they are extremely capable of creating a retina 7.85 inch screen and most likely will.

post #65 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Apple 
[" url="/t/151091/ipad-mini-predicted-to-use-same-display-tech-as-apples-iphone-3gs/40#post_2140498"]

Steve Jobs said that Apple doesn't ship junk, but a 7.85" TN tablet qualifies as junk in my book.

IIRC he made a remark about the low end PC market, and that Apple doesn't know how to make a $299 Mac without it being junk. Do get your point on TN though.
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post #66 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post


I don't. Although Gruber is usually reliable, he might be wrong this time.

If you do the math, using the same "sheets" from iPhone 3GS (480 x 360, 3.5") will give you a 7.47" screen that has a resolution of 1024 x 768. I don't see 7.85" coming out of that analysis. Am I wrong? Or is Gruber wrong?

It depends on the velocity of the iPad relative to the observer.
post #67 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post


IIRC he made a remark about the low end PC market, and that Apple doesn't know how to make a $299 Mac without it being junk. Do get your point on TN though.

Yeah, that was on one of the old Macworld keynotes I think. I remember watching it on youtube a while ago.

 

As far as the TN discussion and iPad mini screen goes, I think this whole rumor is baloney, it's just the prediction of one person, who has also been very wrong in the past.

 

And if people are going to make up wild and absurd predictions, then here's mine: The new iPad mini will use the new IGZO display by Sharp. It's been delayed a number of times, but perhaps it's ready for primetime now. The TN screen just makes me angry, I refuse to believe it.

post #68 of 84
Seems like a defensive move on Apple's part.

The form factor and pricing will create interesting questions for customers. I don't think they would release it at $200. $300 should be low enough to peak the interest of first time buyers without putting it into direct competition with the iPod touch or the iPad line.
post #69 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Apple 
[" url="/t/151091/ipad-mini-predicted-to-use-same-display-tech-as-apples-iphone-3gs/40#post_2140419"]Yeah, I see it more as a women's thing too, and for semi-men who use man-purses.
Hey! It's not a purse, it's a messenger bag! If it were a purse it would match my shoes and...oh crap, how did that happen?

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post #70 of 84

I'm not buying these rumours yet.  Where are the confirmations from the production channels?

 

Nexus 7 gets rave reviews from most tech writers and all of a sudden, Apple, which is sewn up tighter than a medieval chastity belt, starts leaking like a sieve?  I don't think so.

 

If the rumours are true, this would be a horrible device.  And certainly not something one would expect from Apple.  21% lower PPI compared to the Nexus 7.  The near-8" screen with 4:3 proportions would make for terrible portability in a purse or suit jacket pocket.    Yet, the 8-incher might well be good enough to get those who buy the iPad 2 or the 16GB retina iPad to downgrade.  And yet if the thing is priced at $299, Apple will be asking some of the most price-sensitive tablet shoppers to commit to a 50% price increase.  Good luck with that.

 

Stranger things have happened.  And Apple may just build the 8 incher to prevent Android from gaining traction in the tablet markets.  But if they do, it'll be a terrible user experience....even against the Nexus 7.  The only value will be the Apple ecosystem.  The device will be terrible.

post #71 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunks View Post

Seems like a defensive move on Apple's part.
The form factor and pricing will create interesting questions for customers. I don't think they would release it at $200. $300 should be low enough to peak the interest of first time buyers without putting it into direct competition with the iPod touch or the iPad line.

 

Can't be done at $200.  There's preliminary reports that say the Nexus 7's BOM comes in at $184.  That means Google is losing money on every 8GB N7 and only making money on the 16GB devices.  The latter is probably what will let them break even overall.

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2012/07/03/google-tablet-analysis-points-to-thin-profit-margins/

 

So if Apple puts in more polish, we can expect the BOM to be around $200.  And total costs to be around $250.  That means, the thing will be selling at $299 at least.  

post #72 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


Apple only once downgraded a product line from IPS to TN and found it wasn't such a great idea. It would prevent people flocking to the lower model while covering the budget market but I think it would degrade the experience too much. If Android tablets can ship in that size with IPS/PLS/OLED, the iPad Mini can too.

 

Yes! John Gruber and the article fails to address this. The iPhone 3GS is based on a TN LCD panel, which is the primary reason for it being so inferior. If Apple chooses to go with a TN panel for a potential iPad Mini instead of IPS LCD, then I'm certainly not buying and I advise you not to do either. TN panel technology is inferior and should have been eliminated many years ago. Viewing angles are a problem on the iPhone 3GS and this will only be more evident on a larger screen. It would basically means that the iPad Mini could only be used in either landcape or portrait due to the fact that TN panels have an inherent problem with negative colors from one angle (try to look at your iPhone 3GS to discover the problem).

 

My prediction? Not going to happen.

 

It's true that LCD panels are produced in large sheets and then cut into smaller pieces, though. But man, is this not common knowledge after 10-15 years of LCD dominance in the screen industry?

post #73 of 84
IMO I don't think this will happen. Perhaps if it were released at the same time as the iPad 2, but not now the new iPad is out there. I think apple would want to offer the same core experience if the iPad 3, just with a smaller screen and lower purchase price for the customer.

It's stating the obvious, but this product, if it happens, it's squarely aimed at the Nexus and Amazon Fire. Apple knows they can produce market defining products, so they will know that they can blow both of these two out of the water, as they have with the iPad we have available today.

If they offered this with a lower quality screen compared to the new iPad, I think this will be a massive turn off for potential customers, as well as going against Apples philosophy of pushing the boundaries and making the best products they can. I doubt they will go too aggressive with the pricing, Apple dictates the price, not the market. They will sell like hot cakes.

It will be interesting to see how this develops
Edited by mbaynham - 7/5/12 at 2:12am
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post #74 of 84
The screens could be cut from the iPad 3 sheets. They can take any resolution they want as long as width and height share the same proportion. The interface could be rendered with the same resolution as the new iPad before scaling it down, say a factor 1.24. They use the same technique for the new Retina MacBook Pro.
post #75 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I hope people finally understand where the 7.85" screen size comes from.

Yes sir, and I thank you for the mention of it a few days back. It sent me on a bit of research then to understand what you were referring to and why it made sense.  Seems un-Apple-like to cut corners with inferior tech, but with Gruber chiming in it can't be discounted entirely.

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post #76 of 84
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Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

Well, the retina display would certainly separate the Apple 7" iPad from all the also-rans. A justification for a price difference too.

iOS would certainly separate the Apple 7" iPad from all the also-rans. A justification for a price difference too.
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post #77 of 84
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Yes sir, and I thank you for the mention of it a few days back. It sent me on a bit of research then to understand what you were referring to and why it made sense.  Seems un-Apple-like to cut corners with inferior tech, but with Gruber chiming in it can't be discounted entirely.

The 3GS is a TN panel, but so is the iPod Touch even though it's Retina. So can you re-use the same machines that are making the 163.25 PPI displays whilst switching from TN to IPS panels? I have no absolutely no clue when it comes to that level of display components and manufacturing. All I know is that continuing to utilize an investment to bring down costs make sense, but so does having an IPS display on a tablet, even a cheap one.

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post #78 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


The 3GS is a TN panel, but so is the iPod Touch even though it's Retina. So can you re-use the same machines that are making the 163.25 PPI displays whilst switching from TN to IPS panels? I have no absolutely no clue when it comes to that level of display components and manufacturing. All I know is that continuing to utilize an investment to bring down costs make sense, but so does having an IPS display on a tablet, even a cheap one.

Yes, you can. Most LCD factories can even produce OLED panels (or other panel technologies) with some modifications. But then you would have to have either more production segments (to continue to make TN for the old devices and IPS for new ones) or switch to IPS for all of the devices. Which could lead to the questions:

1. Is the iPhone 3GS being discountinued when the new iPhone launches?

2. Will iPods start using IPS panels?

post #79 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnielse View Post

Yes, you can. Most LCD factories can even produce OLED panels (or other panel technologies) with some modifications. But then you would have to have either more production segments (to continue to make TN for the old devices and IPS for new ones) or switch to IPS for all of the devices. Which could lead to the questions:

1. Is the iPhone 3GS being discountinued when the new iPhone launches?

2. Will iPods start using IPS panels?


Another question - why didn't Apple use IPS in Retina iPod Touches in the first place?  Speculation at launch was that it would have made the Touch units thicker than desired.  If so, has this changed to allow Apple to use IPS across the board?

post #80 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

The 3GS is a TN panel, but so is the iPod Touch even though it's Retina. So can you re-use the same machines that are making the 163.25 PPI displays whilst switching from TN to IPS panels? I have no absolutely no clue when it comes to that level of display components and manufacturing. All I know is that continuing to utilize an investment to bring down costs make sense, but so does having an IPS display on a tablet, even a cheap one.

I would hope Apple goes to IPS given Kindle and Nook uses it. That said, the TN Apple uses is pretty good as far as TN goes, just not as good as a decent IPS display.

That's assuming the iPad mini rumors are even true. Even that basic fact is not confirmed, arguing about what a possibly fictional device has doesn't seem to matter much.

As an aside, it's surprising how IPS has suddenly taken hold, even inexpensive monitors are offered with it. A couple years ago, it was pulling teeth finding IPS monitors that weren't 2-3 times the price of a TN monitor.
Edited by JeffDM - 7/5/12 at 10:16am
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