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Apple's next iPhone rumored to feature quad-core processor - Page 2

post #41 of 69

The bullshit is not the quad core the bullshit is to claim it's based on Samsung's Exynos 4 architecture.

 

And btw Apple has now 4 designes:

A4 (45nm / Cortex-A8)

A5 (45nm / Cortex-A9)

A5X (45nm / Cortex-A9)

A5 (32nm / Cortex-A9)

and none of them is based on any Samsung design.

 

Personally I think we will see a dual Cortex-A15 design in the next iPhone.

It's questionable though whether Apple was able to already incorporate a G6x00 (PowerVR Rogue).

We might see a SGX543MPn design just like the 32nm A5.

post #42 of 69

Saw DigiTimes in the first sentence. Nope. Didn't bother to read the rest of the article. It's no better than getting your rumors from the Taco Bell dog.

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post #43 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


Samsung makes ALL of Apple's iOS SoC's. They are made in Samsung's sprawling plant in Texas. Apple helped pay for that plant and the equipment. In return, they get additional discounts. What is happening in there now, we can only guess. But the new 28nm chip used in the iPad 2 today, and the new aTv are made there as well.
There is no reliable reason to believe Apple is planning a move soon.
As for Digitimes... they used to have a 50% average, but the past year that's moved down to under 40%.
Still, that's about as good as anyone else. I would be surprised if Apple didn't have a 4 core chip running. Why would they wait until next year, and a new iPad to use it? That would just put them behind a large number of competitors, and when it comes to chips, they don't like that happening.
Also, Apple is proud of their SoC's. They always mention the number of cores in the CPU, the number of cores, and the version of the gpu, and the speed. They don't tell what the RAM is, or discuss details about the chip. Though last year they did mention that the have their own processing module for the camera built into the chip.

 

Samsung processors mustn't be much good, look at the lag in this quad core SIII international version:-

 

 

The HTC One X seems a lot smoother.

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post #44 of 69

Apple only going to put a quad core processor into the next iPhone if theres a specific need for it, such as a new function etc. Why build up the cost for no reason.

post #45 of 69
People need to understand this, Apple and Samsung are in effect partners here. Further Samsung makes extensive use of Apples technology acquired through Apples purchase of Intrinsity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Samsung makes ALL of Apple's iOS SoC's. They are made in Samsung's sprawling plant in Texas. Apple helped pay for that plant and the equipment. In return, they get additional discounts. What is happening in there now, we can only guess. But the new 28nm chip used in the iPad 2 today, and the new aTv are made there as well.
Since everybody but Intel is having issues transitioning to 22nm, I really don't see any reason for Apple to rush away from their relationship with Samsung. Let face it who would they run too. TSMC can barely put out for NVidia. Global Foundries has dramatically impacted AMDs ability to compete with Intel. Just about everybody else is far behind these three.
Quote:

There is no reliable reason to believe Apple is planning a move soon.
As for Digitimes... they used to have a 50% average, but the past year that's moved down to under 40%.
Still, that's about as good as anyone else. I would be surprised if Apple didn't have a 4 core chip running. Why would they wait until next year, and a new iPad to use it? That would just put them behind a large number of competitors, and when it comes to chips, they don't like that happening.
Also, Apple is proud of their SoC's. They always mention the number of cores in the CPU, the number of cores, and the version of the gpu, and the speed. They don't tell what the RAM is, or discuss details about the chip. Though last year they did mention that the have their own processing module for the camera built into the chip.

They should be, Apple has state of the art performance. However Apple does need to update thread performance. If they stick with Cortex A9 a clock rate jump to 2 GHz would be nice as that would give JavaScript a nice boost. At least in the iPad, I'm not often wishing for faster performance in the iPhone, but iPad really could use it. We don't really want quad core if it results in a regression with respect to single thread performance.

I guess it would be possible to put a quad core (especially with a process shrink to 22nm) into an iPhone but I'm not so certain it is worthwhile. The iPad is just crying for more performance though. However 22 nm tech in an iPhone would be a huge win for Apple no matter how many cores. It just think 22nm is one shrink to far.
post #46 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by logandigges View Post

WTF "sometimes-reliable"? More like "never-reliable".

 

actually Digitimes is 100% reliable. you can always rely on them to be full of poop

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post #47 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by smalM View Post


The exact nature of the IP in Apples processors has never been completely disclosed. Some of the core photos would lead one to believe that at the very least Apple and Samsung have worked closely on Apples processors.

As to the next chip an A15 core might work out well but for me I want to have far better thread performance to boost JavaScript and other apps held back by single thread performance. If Apple did that with an dual core A9 running at 2GHz with a fat cache I'd be happy to have that in the next iPad. As long as a year ago now places like Global Foundries where describing (22nm) very energy efficient A9's running at 2GHz so this isn't impossible. Obviously A15 based cores would be better but it does seem to be a bit early for that.
post #48 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriamjh View Post

Saying the next iPhone will use a quad core CPU is like saying the sun will rise tomorrow or the sky is blue.  It's practically a given.  Since other phones already have them, Apple is all but guaranteed to have its own by the fall.

 

 

That everyone has done it is NOT a valid reason to call anything a given. Apple doesn't do as everyone else does just cause they do it. They will do it if it serves a purpose in their eyes (regardless of what ever purposes we might see). They aren't trying to make the iPhone or even iPad into full scale computers so that's out. So again the question is what vital purpose would Apple find for such a thing. will it improve battery life, will it make movies, especially streaming ones, play better, will it improve games, would quad core allow them to make screens that can be used outside etc.

 

That's how you figure out if something is a given when it comes to Apple. Not 'everyone else is doing it'

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post #49 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Saw DigiTimes in the first sentence. Nope. Didn't bother to read the rest of the article. It's no better than getting your rumors from the Taco Bell dog.

I disagree. The Taco Bell dog would probably be right about 50% of the time, like flipping a coin, and the accuracy of DigiTimes has been proven to be far, far lower than that.

 

As a matter of fact, the complete opposite of what DigiTimes claims, is most likely what will happen in most cases.

post #50 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post

Also the A5X is already a quad core graphics processor with dual core arm cpu's so its really not a stretch that the A6 will be quad core on both cpus and graphics

Based on the A5X it is a stretch. That SoC is too large, too power hungry and too hot to be feasible for the iPhone. Now it doesn't need double the GPU cores or need to clocked as high as for the iPad (3) but that still doesn't account for the issues like the A5X still only being a dual-core CPU. Then you have issues with trying to cram G3 LTE chips into the next iPhone whilst trying to keep the battery life as good or better than the previous models. The iPad (3) was only able to do that by increasing the battery size by nearly half. That simply isn't an option for the next iPhone.

AnandTech details some of the sizes of the SoC.

They also have an article detailing the updated iPad 2 that is a testbed for the 32nm chip. It's the same performance as the 45nm version which means the battery life is greatly improved.

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post #51 of 69
I dunno, I would think Apple would be planning a path to ARM A15, which as far as I know is dual core. From a marketing perspective it is a bit hard to trumpet an A9 "quad core!+1!" as the big promotion for the Apple A6 processor and then step back to "only" a dual core A15 in the Apple A7.

I would have hoped the next iPhone has an A15 as the core of the Apple A6, or based on an early reference version thereof.
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post #52 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Entropys View Post

I dunno, I would think Apple would be planning a path to ARM A15, which as far as I know is dual core. From a marketing perspective it is a bit hard to trumpet an A9 "quad core!+1!" as the big promotion for the Apple A6 processor and then step back to "only" a dual core A15 in the Apple A7.
I would have hoped the next iPhone has an A15 as the core of the Apple A6, or based on an early reference version thereof.

That's what makes this next iPhone tough to figure out. So much is in flux and depends on feasible yields.

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post #53 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


Samsung makes ALL of Apple's iOS SoC's. They are made in Samsung's sprawling plant in Texas. Apple helped pay for that plant and the equipment. In return, they get additional discounts. What is happening in there now, we can only guess. But the new 28nm chip used in the iPad 2 today, and the new aTv are made there as well.
There is no reliable reason to believe Apple is planning a move soon.
As for Digitimes... they used to have a 50% average, but the past year that's moved down to under 40%.
Still, that's about as good as anyone else. I would be surprised if Apple didn't have a 4 core chip running. Why would they wait until next year, and a new iPad to use it? That would just put them behind a large number of competitors, and when it comes to chips, they don't like that happening.
Also, Apple is proud of their SoC's. They always mention the number of cores in the CPU, the number of cores, and the version of the gpu, and the speed. They don't tell what the RAM is, or discuss details about the chip. Though last year they did mention that the have their own processing module for the camera built into the chip.
I am pretty sure it is 32nm used in iPad 2, not 28nm yet.
And where did the info state Apple helped pay for the plant and equipment?
post #54 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Samsung makes ALL of Apple's iOS SoC's. They are made in Samsung's sprawling plant in Texas. Apple helped pay for that plant and the equipment. In return, they get additional discounts. What is happening in there now, we can only guess. But the new 28nm chip used in the iPad 2 today, and the new aTv are made there as well.

"We believe Apple is deeply involved in the manufacturing and supply chain process down to the factory floor," analyst Peter Misek said. "We believe Apple is creating deep partnerships with a handful of suppliers in industries where it feels there is a competitive advantage (e.g., secure supply, secure lower price, achieve a technological edge)."

"The firm believes Apple is leveraging its massive cash flow to fund suppliers' capex. Analysis suggests Apple is spending $3B+ in FY12 capex on these equipment purchases and $7B+ in FY13, but in return Apple is reducing its COGS by ~$1.4B (~84bp improvement to GM) in FY12 and ~$1.9B (~89-95bp improvement to GM) in FY13."


Unattributed. Published 14 February 2012. Jefferies Lifts Q1/FY12 Estimates on Apple (AAPL); Can Maintain Higher Margins Longer. Street Insider. Retrieved 6 July 2012.
Edited by MacBook Pro - 7/6/12 at 6:16am
post #55 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk View Post

oh boy..  sounds like a typical Apple reality distortion batshit..  Where is your proof that Apple helped paid for the Texas plant? Samsung has $20+ billions in cash, though they often issue bonds to cover the cost of building / upgrading plants. So what part of Samsung's annual $10+ billion capital investment comes from Apple - or $40+ billion for 2012 alone?  Apple's up-front capital investment in the past was largely to secure volume supply & discount. 

Are you as stupid as you appear? Apple has paid billions, year after year, to pay for plants, machinery, and to train workers for companies who make parts for them, including Samsung.

http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/02/14/apple-funding-large-portion-of-samsungs-texas-chip-making-plant-says-analyst/
post #56 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Samsung processors mustn't be much good, look at the lag in this quad core SIII international version:-




The HTC One X seems a lot smoother.

Apple's advantage is that they customize their chips to work more smoothly with their OS and specific hardware. That's something that, so far at least, even Samsung doesn't do.
post #57 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by BUSHMAN4 View Post

Apple only going to put a quad core processor into the next iPhone if theres a specific need for it, such as a new function etc. Why build up the cost for no reason.

It's a generational shift. If Apple is using a new process tech, then 4 cores will cost about the same as 2 cores did.
post #58 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


Are you as stupid as you appear? Apple has paid billions, year after year, to pay for plants, machinery, and to train workers for companies who make parts for them, including Samsung.
http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/02/14/apple-funding-large-portion-of-samsungs-texas-chip-making-plant-says-analyst/

 

All rumors.
post #59 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

People need to understand this, Apple and Samsung are in effect partners here. Further Samsung makes extensive use of Apples technology acquired through Apples purchase of Intrinsity.
They should be, Apple has state of the art performance. However Apple does need to update thread performance. If they stick with Cortex A9 a clock rate jump to 2 GHz would be nice as that would give JavaScript a nice boost. At least in the iPad, I'm not often wishing for faster performance in the iPhone, but iPad really could use it. We don't really want quad core if it results in a regression with respect to single thread performance.
I guess it would be possible to put a quad core (especially with a process shrink to 22nm) into an iPhone but I'm not so certain it is worthwhile. The iPad is just crying for more performance though. However 22 nm tech in an iPhone would be a huge win for Apple no matter how many cores. It just think 22nm is one shrink to far.

I'm sure Apple would love 22nm. But no one else will be doing that for another year. It's why I'd like to see Apple and Intel get together on this. Intel has made it clear, publicly, that they want Apple for mobile. Of course, they keep saying that Apple will move to x86 for that, and I don't see it. But I can't believe that, if they wanted to, they couldn't persuade Intel to act as a foundry for them.

Reading the Microprocessorr Report, we can see that while chips like the Tegra's cost about $15, Apple's costs about $25. Just going by the much larger die size, the costs can be estimated. That means more profit. Apple is in a unique position when it comes to SoC's. They use so many, and all the same generation product uses the same chip. Older generations use older chips. 93 million phones, 40 million iPads, about 24 million Touches and 3 million aTvs last year. A total of 160 million chips, at an average price of about $20 (because older designs will see the price come down) gives a total of $3.20 billion in SoC's.

This year, Apple will need at least 50% more, maybe up to 100% more.
post #60 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Entropys View Post

I dunno, I would think Apple would be planning a path to ARM A15, which as far as I know is dual core. From a marketing perspective it is a bit hard to trumpet an A9 "quad core!+1!" as the big promotion for the Apple A6 processor and then step back to "only" a dual core A15 in the Apple A7.
I would have hoped the next iPhone has an A15 as the core of the Apple A6, or based on an early reference version thereof.

There's no reason why we won't see a quad core Cortex 15. When going to newer process tech, more cores are easier. The C15 is more efficient than the C9. Apple, as we know, adds their own efficiency designs to that.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/17/arm-announces-new-quad-core-cortex-a15-hard-macro-variant/
post #61 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

"We believe Apple is deeply involved in the manufacturing and supply chain process down to the factory floor," analyst Peter Misek said. "We believe Apple is creating deep partnerships with a handful of suppliers in industries where it feels there is a competitive advantage (e.g., secure supply, secure lower price, achieve a technological edge)."
"The firm believes Apple is leveraging its massive cash flow to fund suppliers' capex. Analysis suggests Apple is spending $3B+ in FY12 capex on these equipment purchases and $7B+ in FY13, but in return Apple is reducing its COGS by ~$1.4B (~84bp improvement to GM) in FY12 and ~$1.9B (~89-95bp improvement to GM) in FY13."
Unattributed. Published 14 February 2012. Jefferies Lifts Q1/FY12 Estimates on Apple (AAPL); Can Maintain Higher Margins Longer. Street Insider. Retrieved 6 July 2012.

In post 56, where I also get ticked off at a really dumb, insulting post about it, aimed at me.
post #62 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


In post 56, where I also get ticked off at a really dumb, insulting post about it, aimed at me.

It doesn't help to reply in kind tho, particularly as a moderator. You (we) should not bring ourselves down to the level of the egregious trolls we reply to.

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post #63 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

I'm very curious to see what chip Apple ends up using. I'm sure it will be 32 nm (they are already using some 32nm A5s now). 

 

The big question for me is whether it will just be a die-shrunk, and higher clocked A5 or if it will be an A6. And if A6, does that necessarily mean quad cores? Or could it mean two beefier cores? Or could it be something radically new? 

 

My guess is that it will be a 32nm quad core chip that they call the A6, and that the next iPad will be a 32 nm quad core chip that they call the A6X (beefier graphics to support the larger number of pixels in an iPad). If not that, then I'd guess the die shrunk A5. 

 

I'm also guessing that the iPad Mini will get a 32 nm A5. 

 

If you watch Apple's hardware moves, you'll notice they don't make any giant leaps just to help out consumers. It's pretty obvious that if they update the screens to be a different widescreen resolution, and change the look, all while adding 4G, the likelihood that they'd also be adding a quadcore chip is pretty low. You can almost consider that to be a rumor that pans out for next years iPhone 5S 

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post #64 of 69

Inaccuracies.  Couple of things, Apple designs their own custom CPUs based on the ARM architecture, not based on what Samsung is doing (even though Samsung makes ARM chips too).  Apple partners with Samsung to fabricate the Apple designed chips, currently using Samsung's 45nm fabrication process.  It's important to note these are not based on a chip design by Samsung.  Yes, there is a huge difference in meaning...  Also, Apple is working with other fabs to build these CPUs on an even smaller 32nm process, and hopefully 22nm at some point.  Whether Samsung will remain Apple largest silicon provider is uncertain.

 

It's also premature to say that Apple will be making a quad-core CPU for the next iPhone, or that it will "heat up competition" or whatever.  The number of cores or the level of Gigahertz does not correlate to actual performance.  Having four cores is basically useless when 3 of them sit idle 90% of the time, as is the case with Android products.  Apple w/iOS gets significantly more mileage out of their dual-core ARM CPUs than Android currently can with 2, 4, or even 8 to 12 cores (if such a beast existed).  I would not be at all surprised to see the next iPhone ship with a dual-core CPU based on a more advanced ARM architecture with a hex-core GPU built in.  Nobody will know for sure until it ships.

post #65 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytdave View Post

It's also premature to say that Apple will be making a quad-core CPU for the next iPhone, or that it will "heat up competition" or whatever.  The number of cores or the level of Gigahertz does not correlate to actual performance.  Having four cores is basically useless when 3 of them sit idle 90% of the time, as is the case with Android products.  Apple w/iOS gets significantly more mileage out of their dual-core ARM CPUs than Android currently can with 2, 4, or even 8 to 12 cores (if such a beast existed).  I would not be at all surprised to see the next iPhone ship with a dual-core CPU based on a more advanced ARM architecture with a hex-core GPU built in.  Nobody will know for sure until it ships.

Google Nexus 7 has a 1.2 GHz Nvidia Tegra 3 quad-core ARM Cortex-A9 CPU with additional low-speed companion core and a 416 MHz Nvidia GeForce ULP dodeca-core (12 core) GPU. (1)

The fact that Google Nexus 7 has all that computing power in addition to "Project Butter" which introduced Android 4.1 "Jelly Bean" to extend vsync timing across all drawing and animation done by the Android framework, triple buffering in the graphics pipeline, synchronizing touch to vsync timing and anticipating where your finger will be at the time of the screen refresh as well as applying a CPU input boost at the next touch event after periods of inactivity. (2)

Google Nexus 7 exemplifies your statement, "The number of cores or the level of Gigahertz does not correlate to actual performance."


1. Unattributed. Published Date Unknown. Nexus 7 Features. Google. Retrieved 6 July 2012.
2. Unattributed. Published Date Unknown. Android 4.1 for Developers . developers.android.com. Retrieved 6 July 2012.
post #66 of 69

As others have posted, I think a big determining factor to what ARM architecture goes into the A6 chip, is mainly an issue of logistics -- can they get the yields they need at the time they need them.  

 

Other issues such as need for additional battery, 4G chips, etc., may be obviated by a redesign of the device, e.g. the next iPhone may have a thinner rear case and greater overall height!

 

 

What complicates Apple's logistics problem with newly available technology is that they have 2 high-demand product lines -- the iPhone and the iPad, which are typically refreshed 4-6 months apart.  So, Apple would like to have:

 

1) the latest technology (chip architecture and manufacturing)

 

2) yields to meet the anticipated demands

 

3) low cost -- efficiency and economies of scale

 

 

Here's a possibility --  Say Apple:

 

1) Specs a maxed out [latest available] ARM and manufacturing process for the next iPad -- for availability in anticipated iPad quantities for March 2013.

 

2) Specs a lower-capability version of the same chip for the iPhone for October 2012.

 

3) Begins manufacturing of iPad chip ASAP at maximum capacity -- even at low yield, and bank the qualified chips for the next iPad.

 

4) Tests the rejects from 3) at the lower-speced iPhone chip.

 

5) Testing for the lower spec should give a greater yield of iPhone chips.

 

If the process still works the way [I understood] that it used to, you can cripple failing components (cores, etc.), lower processing speed... and use the chip at a lower spec.

 

 

Say, that Apple determines it needs  100 million iPhone A6 chips from October thru March and 30 million iPad chips beginning in March -- then some number of both flavors going forward.

 

So, If Apple (based on history and sampling) can reliably estimate yields,  they could start say, 200 million (300 million?) iPad chips today, realizing that a high number of the iPad rejects will qualify as reduced-spec iPhone chips.

 

If the iPad yields are higher/sooner than expected they can just cripple some chips and use them in the iPhone.

 

If the iPhone (iPad rejects) yields are lower than expected, they can use the iPad chips crippled as above -- and delay announcement of the new iPad (That's their ace-in-the-hole).

 

 

If they do a reasonable job of estimating and manufacturing -- the yields should ramp up to meet demand.  They will be manufacturing the latest technology, in the needed quantities, at the desired time.  

 

And, they will have increased the efficiency and reduced costs (primary and secondary yields) of a single architecture and manufacturing process.

 

 

Then the next members of the iDevice family can, in turn, utilize this technology (crippled as needed).

 

 

Is this still possible/practical in today's world of semiconductor manufacturing -- with all the SOC & POP?

 

 

Edit:  It occurs to me that one way to make delaying the March iPad less painful (if necessary) -- would be to release the iPad 8" (based on currently available technology) around Sept--Nov.

 

 

Edit 2: Likely, I have embarrassed myself and exhausted my dated knowledge of semiconductor manufacturing....

 

My last real involvement in the field was in the early 1980's when we setup LANs at IBM, National Semi, Fairchild/Schlumberger and the like.  One LAN in particular had Apple ][s in the Board Room at Applied Materials headquarters (they did their forecasting and yield computations using VisiCalc).

 

Applied Materials had coasters similar to this -- laying around everywhere:

 

TUIT.png


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 7/6/12 at 3:13pm
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post #67 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

Second, while Samsung could conceivably provide the fab services to make the chip, I doubt Apple would even let Samsung in the door unless absolutely necessary considering the hostility towards each other right now.


Why does this sound more like wishful thinking?

 

Perhaps this is how YOU would respond if you were Apple?

 

At the end of the day, its the bottom line that matters.

 

Nothing personal in business (except when you are Steve Jobs or his minions)

 

 

Let it be known that even Qualcomm is making contracts with Samsung to produce Snapdragon chips for them.

 

One thing is clear: its very hard to untangle yourself from Samsung's wide tenticles.

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post #68 of 69

Well, I really doubt that it will turn out to be an Exynos-like processor, but I can really see the possibility of a quad core processor. It's just the next step in the evolution of smartphones. Apple can't always be far behind. They proved that by topping the market tech with the new Macbook Pros that sport an ivy bridge processor

post #69 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

It doesn't help to reply in kind tho, particularly as a moderator. You (we) should not bring ourselves down to the level of the egregious trolls we reply to.

In theory, you're right. But theory and practice don't always coincide, as you know. The very fact that someone is stupid enough to insult a mod is in itself worth of a deletion, at least, and at many sites, an immediate ban. I'm much more forgiving.
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